• Member Since 24th Apr, 2012
  • offline last seen 6 hours ago

Wise Cracker


Just some guy who likes chaos magic, ponies, and Blender. Getting moderately good at vector art in Inkscape and Synfig, learning animation, maybe some web design when he can.

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Twilight's had some time to think about what happened during the Tirek crisis, and now she has only one question on her mind:

Did Twilight get Celestia's immortality or not?

When she confronts her former mentor about it, she learns some interesting things about definitions, technicalities, and necromancy.

More importantly, she learns that even the greatest of ponies have their weaknesses.

A/N: Mostly TwiLestia friendshipping, and lots of headcanon. Also one or two cameos.

Chapters (1)
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Comments ( 201 )

Wow, all that to set up that horrible pun? I applaud you.

5127194
Actually, that horrible pun was added last-minute. Originally there was a red dwarf/white giant joke, but then I realised the accuranazis would kill me if I got it wrong. So I went with the more obvious one.

Glad you liked, at any rate :twilightsmile:

Yeah, this is pretty much spot on how I've always considered the Royal Sisters.

Also, Discord, you are incorrigible. :facehoof:

So not only the 'Princess of the Sun', but effectively the sun itself? I'm getting flashbacks from The Rings of Akhaten, but oh well. Still, I suppose that this is quite the interesting story. It adds quite a lot of depth to Celestia's character, and makes Luna's story even more tragic. For what it's worth, I'd definitely say that people should give this a read over.

5127334
She's not really the embodiment sun itself, but her soul is bound to it, at least. What that means exactly, depends what paradigm you're using. I leave it to reader interpretation on that front. And interesting and character is what I was aiming for, so that's worth a lot, thanks :twilightsmile:

5127346

So, if she uses a lot of power all at once, can it lessen the output of the sun? Is that why she doesn't just blast everyone?

Actually, never mind, drawing directly on the sun that way, even if she only used it in extreme emergencies, would be stupid. Just think if Tirek had gotten ahold of a nuclear furnace to power his spells.

5127346 With all the different types of magic that the show, and fandom, have introduced, revamped, and created, I wasn't really sure what to make of her precise relationship with the sun.
In terms of making something interesting, yes, you definitely hit that nail right on the head.
:raritywink:

5127351
Again, it depends on the paradigm being used. Word of God on that is: when it's a book, the spells intertwined with the life story become part of the caster's essence. That means the spells are easier to cast and boosted in power.

Given how it's set up here, I'd sooner say that the end result for an offensive spell is one that is fairly weak in and of itself, but never runs out of power, so perfect for attrition wars or sieges. Think of D&D At-Will spells vs the daily or encounter ones.

I just realised the phrase "I can keep this up all day" has a new meaning in this headcanon.

Keep in mind, though, the things granted by the phylactery and the things attained naturally or through practice are separate, that's the whole point. Everything Tirek stole was purely from the princesses, not their phylacteries. You'd have to drain a phylactery to steal all a lich's powers.

Well, that was enjoyable. Celestia certainly got a better deal out undeath than Sombra. Poor fellow. Necrosenility is always terrible to see, but sometimes the mind just doesn't do well, and one of those times is being trapped in incorporeal sensory deprivation for a millennium.

In any case, certainly a fascinating take on the royal sisters. Not necessarily one I agree with for general use, but still interesting. Thank you for it. :twilightsmile:

Good story, though early on when Twilight was asking about Celestia not passing her immortality to Celestia, I'm surprised she didn't come to the conclusion that giving Twilight her immortality would have caused Celestia to die. I've just seen enough times in fiction where an immortal character losing their immortality suddenly has their age catch up with them...

--arcum42

5127582
That did cross my mind, but by the time I fleshed out all the consequences for Celly and Luna, I was already in deep territory, I didn't want to bring in more references to death. Not that early in, at least. My main concern is that Twilight wouldn't think Celestia was set for a swift death because all the princesses were still looking fine after the power transfer. Besides that, if she really thought that, she'd have told the princesses to flee from Tirek, instead of taking the risk of dying from him stealing immortalities and killing them in the process.

Anywho, glad you like :twilightsmile: Keep on Truckin's coming along one scene a day, so should be done by late December. Not counting the time needed to make cover art, because dammit, I want to make better cover art :twilightangry2:

I now know more than I will ever need to know about liches. I'll file this away in case we run into library zombies in my D&D campaign.

5127692
quick tip, DnD liches don't have to use a book as a phylactery

So what if Twilight's phylactery was the element of magic?

Clever. :raritywink: I would very much like to see a sequel.

“Besides, everyone knows it’s pointless to beat a dead horse.”

I died again.

Celestia smiled sadly and shrugged. “It’s simple, really: my sister was better than I was. She still is, you know, in many respects. She was stronger, more understanding, and she took upon herself duties that I could never take over. Unlike me, she always knew how to guide her little ponies without disturbing their lives.

Dunno why, but I just really loved that whole scene with Celestia talking about Luna. Great mentions with the Stars.

But anyhow, this was a great piece on psycho-semantics. In this case making great use of DnD style demonology lore and crafting some wonderful and believable talks that explore the Two Sisters in a way I've sadly not had the pleasure of reading so well as this here presented it. Something the 'canon' book was sorely lacking in imo. I'm glad you tossed all that stuff out in favor for creating some kickass original headcanon here.

Glad to see this get made. It certainly managed to fit in certain themes while making it all about how those affect the ponies, and the pony world as a whole. How relatable some parts became and how others led to encourage the use of one's imagination.

I can't fully articulate how happy I am you managed to do what you set out to do with such class. I'm pretty impressed. Way to kick butt!

I for for always thought of their immortality in the way "Rick Riordan" wrote it in the Percy Jackson series. In the books he explained a god is immortal as long as people believe in their existence and what they represent remains intact. In the PJ books because the forests and wildlife were severely destroyed pan died, the only thing keeping alive if barely for awhile was the belief in his existence. With Celestia it is the belief of herself being a great immortal ruler and her connection with the sun; in this sense if you were to destroy Celestia or the sun, the other would go with them.

The reason why Discord is so scary is that that you can't destroy chaos since it is a fundamental force of the universe. This also applies to Cadence with love and Twillight with magic. The reson why Cadence or Twillight are not immortal is that they are in basic terms infants as alicorn and yet to fully understand and master their powers. I also believe that they are MANY times more powerful than they let on and not use their full power only because of the sheer amount of damage and casualties it would cause. In other words Celestia could have beaten chrysalis but would wind up destroying the entire castle and likely all of Canterlot.

With this logic I do not believe that Celestia or Luna are not Liches since if they were this would kind of apply to just about all other deities in the mlp universe and others as well.

I still very much enjoyed this story; I just wanted to say what I thought about the question of their immortality. :twilightsmile:

Great story, I hope to see a sequel if at all possible.

5127781
Based on the rules outlined in this story that wouldn't be possible unless there were some kind of microcosmos within the jewel that could then be manipulated to contain the necessary spell matrix. Which if that were possible with any object then it would be much more common for a phylactery to be on objects just as easily as books. However, since Twilight enjoys books so much it would make a lot of sense for her to have a more traditional one, but then her life is tied to the condition of the book.
For her to have something that would have the same longevity, size, and be as manipulatable as possible to allow for the spells to move and act as the sun does for Celestia. It would have to be something more akin to a planet, or even something more abstract that would allow some flowing movement that would go unnoticed by the populous.
What would be very interesting to see, but still not as good as the sun, would be a phylactery library. In which each book that enters the library is integrated into the phylactery and once a book was checked out it would then disconnect. Through this Twilight could have all of the knowledge that resides within her library, as well as any spells within existence.
In addition to these factors, since the library itself would be her phylactery it could be subject to her will and changes as well, so new wings and growth to accommodate more books would just appear to be an act of magic upon the library structure. On the shelves and walls behind the books could then be the spells and life of Twilight Sparkle, thus hiding it within plain site.

The last line of this was a thing of beauty, but the rest of it felt a bit uh... what's the word for it?

Like you vomited headcanon out all over the place? Or rather, vomited explanations for something, without actually putting a story around it.

It wasn't really a story, in that sense, as nothing really, ultimately happened.

5128017 I actually thought that Celestia's phylactery was going to be the library for a few moments :rainbowlaugh:

5128093

What happened was characters talking to each other about stuff. If that's not a story worth telling than I don't know what is.

“The living dead are vampires. My kind is known as the walking dead, or trotting dead, but generally we prefer to be inclusive to all races.”

All I thought of was the Walking Dead graphic novels/tv show.

And soulbounding to the Sun and Moon is what I think the Princesses did- though without the lich aspect, nice.

An interesting read, and awesome to see some rather unique headcanon on the subject. It is rather appropriate that I read this as the next chapter of my big, bloated fanfic is about to come out, because my next chapter has a small section addressing Celestia's immortality, too. However, it's a conversation between her and Luna rather than her and Twilight.

One thing that lost me, though, at least in the beginning of this fic, was the fact that Celestia's immortality was being referred to as an ability. Twilight thought that the immortality would pass onto her when she took Celestia's magic. As a premise, I was really shaky on it. I am not sure why Twilight would have thought that. Other than that, it was an enjoyable conversation that took a little bit to get rolling, but once it did, it was very interesting.

5128160
Well, I would be a terrible hypocrite to say that I can't enjoy this sort of thing - I often do - but this one didn't end up really pushing it over the top for me.

Maybe it was because it kept referring to undead out of the Dungeons & Dragons Monster Manual. I mean, Nightgaunts, really? :trixieshiftright:

Clearly she's a demilich. I mean, Luna can turn to a bunch of sparkly smoke...

Goddammit. I spotted, from the comments, that there was a pun at the end of all this, but it still caught me by surprise and made me facepalm-laugh. It's so obvious, how in the world did I not see that coming?

I enjoyed this story immensely, though I think you could have gone without the disclaimer. A writer's work is just that, a writer's work. Let it stand on its own!

I always considered Celestia and Luna to be like the gods in marvel comics or more accurately, mythology. They're extremely powerful and ageless, but not invincible. Basically, with enough power, they could be defeated or even killed. It's just that in order to kill them, you have to either be on the same or greater level than them, or use a specific object on them.

My head canon is that over time, Twilight will continue to grow in power and once she reaches a certain point, she'll stop aging. I think that being an Alicorn makes one immortal, but only if they have enough power to keep themselves from aging. Alicorns can die, they're just extremely hard to kill and aging won't do the trick.

A good read that could definitely be a plausible answer to the princesses immortality.

One thing that stood out to me as being a little oddly put in was Celestia's claim that Luna is a better ruler/stronger than she is. Its not the first time I've seen it put in a fic and I'd honestly like to hear how you came about this idea?

Luna with a power boost as NMM with the intent to destroy Celestia shot her in the chest and then she fell from a good 50-75ft only to get up seemingly unscathed. NMM seemed to fully believe she had ended her sister as she didn't even bother to go and look. Only when all this had happened did Celestia finally decide to fight back. Celestia is obviously not unbeatable though seeing how a single shot from a love boosted Chrysalis was able incapacitate her (although this was probably meant to be a love conquers all type of thing.) Then there was an entire episode based on Luna understanding a situation where one was overshadowed by a sibling being better than they are.

My headcannon is that Luna is physically the stronger of the two seeing how she held the elements that coincided with RD, and AJ. Additionally I think she is the innovator of the two as she held pinkie's element whom has come up with crazy contraptions which would explain Equestria's somewhat stagnated technology. Celestia on the other hand is magically the stronger of the two seeing how she held the element of magic itself, Kindness and generosity are both traits which not only make a good leader but also tend make them beloved by their subjects which makes her the better ruler of the two.

You, sir, have a very good bit of head canon.

Bravo! :moustache:

The story meandered a lot and I kind of missed the point. I feel like I missed a lot of the point of the story. Also, very good Discord ending pun. :)

Raphael...A Vampire.....In a European-based location (At least in name)...


...You play Soul Calibur V, don't you.

5128017 I...
I am going to steal this idea, and I am going to beat my DM over the head with it until she uses it somewhere.
My god, that is an amazing concept.

5128410
Too much of the body left. And how would they imbed a book into their skulls?
And at least he didn't reference the mohrgs. Although the princesses pretty obviously aren't...

5128017
...I must use this idea.
That is all.

The reason this is so popular and well accepted is the fact that it does something the show does not. It explains A LOT of stuff and the explanation makes sense. Espescially for those who have not read the comics or don't find the comics canon.
I have not read them but even if I did I probably wouldn't find them canon.(Emphasis on probably)
Though I don't particularly want this to be true, I still like it very much.:heart:

***SPOILER***(The part about Tia being a lich, but of course it still makes sense. I always criticize this in the show or in fanfics that don't accept or agree with the idea that Celestia has some sort of permanent connection with the sun. Same for Luna with the moon.)***SPOILER ENDED***

So I applaud you in this great fanfic with great writing. Have a Like and Favorite.(I already liked, I was the 450th. But i'm commenting and favoriting this now.) :rainbowkiss::rainbowkiss::rainbowkiss::yay::yay::yay:

That was really interesting; I'm used to the idea of Celestia and the sun being so interconnected to kill one means the death of the other, but this is a great explanation of the mechanics behind that idea.

And let's be honest, Liches are always cool.

One thing does bug me however, it's stated Liches change appearance based on the condition of their phylactery yes? So, since her's in the sun is she constantly, but slowly getting smaller as the sun fuses it's elements into larger elements? Also, I have to wonder if she'd technically die if the sun supernova'd/collapsed. Technically it still exists, but it changes shape into something new. Does she continue on in a new shape, or does she die? And if she does continue on in a new shape, can she only be destroyed by a black hole since they're theoretically the only things that can destroy information?

As a GM, I want to slap Celestia for power gaming so hard right now.

5128858 The Sun is her phylactery
Ps. Liches are best undead.

Why, I’d have been just livid to think any family would spend three generations casting the same forbidden spell every day for eighty years. All that effort just to destroy you,

tia better start nosing into the goings on in House blueblood:twilightoops:

Headcannon accepted. faving and up voting now.

5128922 Yes, but that doesn't exactly answer any of my questions.

5129007
1:Yes they change with their owner.
2:I don't know if she would get smaller actually.
3:Yes she would die along with the thing she has connected too.
4:If the Sun changes instead of dieing she would too. BLACK HOLE TIME!!!:rainbowlaugh:

Sun as a phylactery - Celestia certainly qualify for a munchkin ;)

-----
Nitpick:
Myself and my sister are the only immortal alicorns in the world.
- "I and my sister are" or if emphasis is needed something like: "Only I myself and my sister are " ?

Then… you didn’t give me your immortality when I fought TIrek
- (tiny tiny typo) Tirek

Then you’re not a nightgaunt either, then?
- maybe remove/change one of "then"?

How is Rarity being enslaved by diamond dogs more free than Rarity not being enslaved by diamond dogs? I mean, I guess if Celestia doesn't give Rarity the choice she'll be a little less free, but she didn't give Rarity the choice.

If Celestia doesn't want to have power over the ponies, shouldn't she abdicate the throne?

Why isn't Lichdom more common? I find it difficult to believe that after a thousand years she couldn't convince the ponies that it's not good to kill somepony for trying not to die.

I like this! I totally want to steal this concept!
But you did it better than I would've. . .

5127880
As did I :rainbowlaugh:
I read this, and even with Discord showing up I didn't see this coming.

Is it bad that the ENTIRE time i was waiting on twilight to talk about magic to celestia as being what the entire world is written out of just like a giant book....

5129007 i would guess yes. she would be killed by a technicality, as technically the Sun exploded, which would mean that it was destroyed. one must be careful when becoming a lich, as phylacteries are very fragile. anything that could technically be seen as destruction would end the lich connected to it, else a gem that was shattered would still hold his soul in the fragments, or melting Sauron's Ring would mean nothing. (it would have just changed it's physical state)

and that is why Sauron made absolutely sure his phylactery (The One Ring) could only be damaged in the very heart of his domain, and had a built-in system to prevent people from wanting to destroy it. that's right, Sauron was a lich, just think about it.

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