I read. I write. I edit. I Twidash. But above all else, I'm just a regular guy. Shoot me a PM if you have a question.
Math is simple. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and so on.
Ponies are not simple. They don't add up like regular numbers do, and just because one answer is four and the other is one does not mean the bigger number is necessarily greater.
Twilight experiences this inequality first hoof when one friend is pitted against four, and she is forced to choose a side, whether she wants to or not.
This story is officially cancelled. You can read my thoughts about it and why this happened here.
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finally! a decent homophobe story with deep meaning! and I like this so far, keep it up!
YOU LYING WHORE! YOU DON'T DESERVE FRIENDS! I HOPE YOU AND YOUR LITTLE SLUT FRIENDS BURN FOR YOU DECEITFUL WAYS!
Oh boy, looking forward to reading this! Before I do though, I just thought I'd point out... There's a typo in the description. You said 'ponie' where I'm pretty sure you meant 'ponies'.
I'm sorry, despite actually liking the story, I have to disagree with that. Equestria as a country and a culture is quite literally built on tolerance and acceptance of differences. The only time we've seen them act with prejudice was towards Zecora and that was fear of the unknown. As soon as they actually talked to her, they quickly became friends.
Edit:
For example, there is no episode that expressly states that pony culture is against murder. But we assume that's the case because its obvious from the way they act, their society etc. Similarly, Hearths warming eve clearly shows a cultural belief in acceptance and tolerance, and as I said, Zecora was treated differently because she was an unknown. Since then she has become a part of Ponyville society with no noticeable adverse effects. That doesn't strike me as the actions of a society that fears whats different.
At least a new interesting TwiDash! I've been aching for one for a long time now... Please, do your worst!
I like the story. Only complant (my opinion btw) is that is a Twidash.
If you are wondering why is that it's becuse there is to much of it (in my opinion) and when I see the hounderth Twidash here in my mind I think 'ugg another Twidash.'
5089931
Obviously that's why "mule" is an insult. Because they are so loving and tolerant.
5089931
That argument is like saying a sealed potato chip bag full of air is actually full of chips because it "seems' like it would be; it's a sealed potato chip bag after all, right? Just because their culture "seems" accepting of others, doesn't mean they accept and tolerate everything. That's like saying someone who isn't racist can't be homophobic because they "seem" accepting of other people.
And actually, I'd like to point out that your Zecora example can be used in my favor; you said yourself that they were prejudiced and weary of her because she was an unknown. Well in our world, a lot of the homophobic people I know and have known are that way because they don't understand being homosexual. Ponies have been shown to react with fear and intolerance to the things they don't know/don't understand, and why should this be any different?
However, that aside, the next chapter (or the third one, I can't exactly remember) goes into more detail on why Equestria is how it is and what they believe to be true about homosexuality, so it'll clear this up, along with future chapters which will explore the concept in greater detail.
5089918
I swear I make a mistake in the description of every single story I post.... and I edit those things four times! Thanks, I'll go fix.
5089982
Yeah... what's your point? If you like the story, you like the story, why should what it is affect that? That's like saying "Oh, another story about ponies. Why are there so many?" Seriously man, if your only reason to comment was to say there are too many Twidash stories, here is not the place to do it. Sit back and enjoy the ride or shun the story for what it is. It makes no difference to me.
So...
It turns out I wasn't following you.
Okay, you have my interest. I was friends with this guy that was gay back in highschool. I was friends with him for months and I didn't know he was gay until he told me he was. Even after he told I didn't treat him any different and still counted him as my friend.
5090056 you know that moment that you just shaped? That's what happed. I was just venting.
I can just imagine that the next few lines will be something like: ...however, I don't believe this should separate you from us." or something, seeing as it's left as an ellipses and that Twilight wouldn't lie about something that seriously hurts someone else.
Then again, I'm probably wrong.
5090056
My argument was basically that you were saying there is no reason to assume they couldn't be homophobic because its not specifically addressed in the show. Well, they don't specifically addressed a lot of things like, as I said, murder.
By your own logic, a story about it turning out that Twilight regularly leaves Equestria to hunt down and slaughter Griffins just because is no more AU than this is. When you have a society that has at its base certain qualities, like tolerance and acceptance, then you have to actually explain why, because I'm sorry but no, it is not logical to assume that kind of society would harbor an almost institutionalized hatred of gays (considering 5 ponies of varying personalities all seem to share this core belief).
To use your own metaphor, yes, I should totally and logically expect that a bag of potato chips on a shelf full of other similar bags, all that I know contain chips, would in fact, contain chips. And if it doesn't then I'm going to want a reason, but I'm not going to assume every bag of chips could also be a bag of air just because I don't know for certain. That is called deductive reasoning.
We make logical assumptions based on the information around us. Even if I cant see the sun at the moment, the abundance of light and the time on my clock lead me to assume it's day time and that the sun is just out of my sight. I don't assume it might also be night.
If you can adequately explain in the story why, then I will accept it. My problem wasn't with the story itself (which, again, I enjoyed and even upvoted), more with your justification in your notes.
5090382
But in order for us to make a logical assumption based on deduction requires evidence associated with what you're trying to deduce. Your sun example, for instance; light and the time of day/night are both directly associated with the relative location of the sun.
But the evidence must be directly related to the logical conclusion or the conclusion is not logical, or at the very least open to a wide variety of interpretations. In this case, there is no evidence shown in the show which directly relates to homosexuality. Tolerance of one group does not mean tolerance of another. A person could tolerate every culture in the world, be they Chinese, African, Indian, Russian, what-have-you, and still be homophobic or racist against one specific race based on personal past experiences or the ideals they were raised with.
Again, I'll be going into greater detail on the Equstrian-specific reasoning for the wide-spread homophobia in later chapters, but at this point we do not have enough information about it from the show alone to deduce whether or not something like this is possible. Implausible, maybe; I'll give you that, but certainly not impossible.
5089853 i can feel your jimmies rustling from all the way over here
As a bisexual I am intrigued. Great job as always man.
5090420
Maybe I'm not explaining it very well...Let's look at it this way. Not to repeat myself, but it's assumed that ponies as a whole, don't murder others. This assumption is based only on what we see in the show. Basically, as a bit of deductive reasoning:
1)We see pony culture demonstrating Tolerance, Acceptance and Value for life (as well as other virtues)
2)This combination makes it very unlikely that murder is socially acceptable
3) We do not see any pony committing murder
4)Pony Culture does not find murder acceptable
Is it therefore 100% that murder is socially unacceptable? No, of course not, but it is so unlikely that it is more logical to assume it is than to assume it isn't.
Why can this same logic not be applied to homophobia? There has to be a step between 1 and 2, something they believe in that allows them to believe in homophobia. But for the life of me I cannot think of anything canonical that could fit there.
And again, you have yet to address what I would say is my major argument, namely that your logic could allow for a psychopathic killer Twilight to be canon since there is no direct proof that murder is considered socially unacceptable (i.e. someone saying murder is bad or stopping a murder etc). It's the idea that you were claiming that homophobia could be canon that really irked me. No pride parades? Sure, but no anti-gay marches either. And it makes a lot more sense that a tolerant society would be pro-gay than anti-gay. Given the society we see, I feel like the burden of proof should be on you to prove homophobia could be canonical rather than me to prove acceptance is.
To be fair, it was really just that second paragraph of the authors notes that just...rubbed me the wrong way.
But, look, whatever. This is rather a moot point anyway, and I should probably stop commenting before I really derail this page. I get really argumentative sometimes
Sorry
Ohey, somebody else wrote a Dash comes out fic that didn't suck.
was.
Interesting. I'm actually quite intrigued by this; Twilight going against herself? That alone is quite a fresh take on the overused homophobia plotlines, and I would like to see where it leads. I mean, aside of TwiDash.
~Twi
It would be hilarious if Rarity's homophobic attitude influenced Spike to become gay and stand for gay rights
For some reason I just had the idea of Dash flying off and taking a vacation from her job and her friends.
The only problem is, I think you have the burden of evidence wrong. It is not us, the readers who have to show you that homophobia does not exist; it is your job as the author to show us why it exists.
Many people (especially in the USA) think that homophobia is something that just emerges naturally. Or, that many societies are homophobic, while it fact, this is very wrong.
The taboo of homosexuality is NOT a standard that will magically appear in every society.
The strong rejection of it in western societies derives from judeo-christian tradition: Davies, C. (1982). Sexual taboos and social boundaries. American Journal of Sociology. 87(5). (1032-1063). among others. (link)
The ban was instituted to separate the "true believers" from the "pagan religions" that did use sex as worship (oversimplifying here a little).
From what we have seen so far in the story and the show, there is no reason for such a thing to exist in Equestria.
While Equestria is definitely modelled after western society it certainly shows no signs of religions alike Judaism or Christianity or a historical situation where the need for such "moral" bans could have originated.
Therefore I have to conclude, that without giving another a good reason in your story, the rejection of homosexuality in Equestria doesn't make sense at all.
I will read your story as it progresses. I am quite interested on how it will turn our. Just, and I beg you to, please explain the source of homophobia. Because unless you do that, no matter what your massage is, you will still perpetuate the myth that homophobia is something ingrained in our primitive consciousness. Which is very wrong and a dangerous very concept.
As recent studies show, homosexuality rates are between 2 to 4% for exclusively gays and up to 12% of people with same-sex sexual experience. That’s a lot of people and some strong political structures need to exist to suppress them all.
If you have any questions, want to know more about the history or need help with any part of this story, please feel free to contact me.
Poor Dashie I'm sticking with her, because the others are retarded for not staying with Dash. She isn't goona harm anyone it's not like she can't control her love life and if she did like one of them she would've said that at the meeting
Twilight, I can't even bring myself to use your facehoof right now. When I was training, it always said that 2>1, meaning that two lives saved at the cost of one was preferable to the other way around. But, there's something to be said about Twi's integrity at this point. Four is greater than one, but did you ever stop to consider four against two, where you're part of the minority? For that matter, if the truth does come out, you've lost all five of them anyways. And losing four is better than loosing five. "humanitatis primi novissimi, et semper"- only thing I have to say about the meaning of the story.
Crap, no I have to go through all of this in my real life. This is exactly what I needed to think about today, Kodeake!
I won't burn you at the stake, if you make this believable. Good luck.
I feel terrible that I honestly believe AJ could act this way already, so good job so far. (Heck, the Bats episode gives a pretty good indication of how AJ can react.)
Fluttershy appealing to nature seems fitting, since its something she can point to and avoid taking responsiblty for her opinion, though I look forward to seeing what you do with her.
Rarity and Pinkie Pie are nicely in character, but I don't have a comment on them other than that so far, still I felt it deserved a mention, well done.
Twilight, now there's a dilemma. I could definately see Twi falling to peer presure. It's not like the Zecora incident where Twi was able to keep defending Zecora, because she was not at risk of losing her friends over doing so. Let's see where this goes.
5090096 If only most people in society were like you, most people would say that they accept a homosexual person, then spread lies and rumours behind their back, mock them and ridicule them. I've seen that sort of crap first hand, the word 'gay ' being thrown around as an insult. I myself know a person who is gay, but will not 'come out' because all of the stuff I just mentioned. Friggin' double standards and hypocrisy.
5090866
5090464
Hey, I can kill two birds with one stone.
Without a doubt, the burden of evidence is on me, I never meant to seem to be denying that. All I was arguing for was the possibility for homophobia, not the actuality.
I will be, in the story, giving reasons as to why this is how it is. Unfortunately, because of the way canon is, I can't use many examples from it and for the most part have to make it up based on my own personal experience with homophobic people.
Math is simple?
No, mathematics is complex, elegant, pure and beautiful. How dare you insult the most perfect thing in reality.
5090464
There is a case to be made that homophobia could exist in Equestria. We know that ponies can be jerks sometimes. We know they can fear the unknown (Zecora). And thinking about it, I can see certain reasons some ponies could be against it. For instance, a noble family wanting to make sure its bloodline is continued and kept strong. Or families that pass down their business to the next generation (such as the Apple family likely does with farms). Obviously homosexuality can complicate matters in those cases. Hell, I can even see using tradition because there are some examples of ponies caring about tradition. If there hasn't been a gay member of a family, then the first could throw them through a loop as they expect him or her to just do what their parents, grandparents and great grandparents did.
But the way it's presented in this story is a bit heavy handed.
5090866
Agreed. As I mentioned above, it's certainly possible for homophobia to exist but there has to be some logic behind it that's presented in the story.
5090358
I can only hope you're right.
I'll follow this story for a bit just on the promise of Twidash but I really hope Twi doesn't cave so completely (as she seems to here at the end) and hurt Rainbow like that. It's hard to forgive her after that point even if she does come crawling back and asking forgiveness. If this gets too depressing I might have to make a run for it.
As an aside (these are just my thoughts you don't need to respond or defend your choices), I can buy AJ & Rarity being homophobic easily enough but Flutter and Pinkie are a bit harder.
Flutter is talking nature but sex/gender in nature is a tricky thing (though she might not know that). It's hard to put social norms for humans (or in this case ponies) on them (and even more so when the creatures are sentient as so many are in MLP). It just seems like a flimsy excuse Flutter... Makes me wonder if she really believes it or if it's just an easy excuse.
Pinkie on the other hand is really hard to buy. Don't get me wrong you can give her the harshest backstory for this kind of thing due to her rock farm upbringing (you could even say that she was severely "corrected" about it when she questioned it to her parents and it wouldn't be hard to believe) but at the same time she is extreme in wanting people to be happy. Sexuality doesn't seem like it would be where she would draw the line, if anything it seems like she would be "Well as long as it makes you happy and you're not hurting anyone else I'm ok with it" even if she wasn't a supporter. Then again maybe she also is worried about losing friends? But that would happen anyway... Eh. So many ways one can go with this.
5093208
Those are pretty much my thoughts on it. It feels really out of character in the case of Pinkie. She seems to have never cared about social norms before.
I like this story and you have very good reasons to believe what you do...
But with something like 65% of Equestria's inhabitants being mares, why is it so harshly frowned upon? Have they never seen Lyra and Bonbon before or do they just ignore them?
I don't know.
...
Write more.
5094541
5093208
I agree with you. AJ and Rarity would probably be most bias because of their upbringing, etc, however Pinkie seemed too easy to follow the trend. Like you said, I would have thought that she would say it's ok even if she does not support it. Fluttershy may be too shy to stand up against her friends and the peer pressure gets to her (as seen in 'Bats'. she didn't want to use the stare/force the bats away).
I only hope that Twilight's upbringing to look at everything and go with the truth will come through. Celestia must have instilled into her a good moral judgement, right?
As you're doing this, remember how many of these stories already exist on this site. I have no idea what your plans are, and I'm hoping you plan on doing something new and original here. Don't just check the boxes as you go. Your writing is good, so I'm going to hop on board for the ride, but please, please don't just do a rehash of this tired-out storyline.
I'll keep an eye on this fic, I've never ran into out and out homophobia apart from almost getting into a fight with some daft indigenous bloke who was pissed off I was holding hands with my ex BF. Even my family though not liking it, and being very glad I'm dating a chick now were supportive. Workmates only gave me a bit of shit about it. So I'm curious to see how you write out and out dislike of it, I can't see pony religion abhoring it. Maybe heldover social values from before the three tribes reuniting? Or stupid noble social stigmas?
MOAR NOW
5092231 I agree with you '-'
Ponies were already shown to be racist, so there's logic that says maybe, ponies would be homophobic as well.
5091434
You don't have to explain yourself to someone who believes their own headcanon about something that can't even be properly extrapolated over the story's story-canon. This is your world due to being your fic, you shape it how you want. If he tells you you're wrong without solid conjecture or actual proof (i.e. not relying on lack of evidence of homophobia in a show for little girls) then -he- is wrong. If he's right you slap an AU tag on it and now you're still right.
"That's nice" and let 'em rant.
As someone else who has felt such an experience first hand, I look forward to this story. Keep up the good work, you got a fan and fav here.
5098322 I don't think they're arguing about whether or not he's wrong or not, but rather the basis on which he needs to present himself that he's right.
5098799
That's literally the same thing, just flipped. There's zero point of reference to say there is or isn't homophobia in Equestria. Which means it is entirely up to the writer to decide if there is, how severe it is, and how widespread it is. No one else can say anything about it with any certainty, especially when they're trying to argue facts that don't exist, and basing at least some of the argument on elements that exist as they are due to the source material being written for six year-olds. "There's no homophobia in the show, so there's no reason for homophobia in your story's Equestria." /I mean... yeah?/ It's silly to try and sound like you have a basis to stand on when all there is is headcanon and a complete lack of material to base conjectural analysis off of. Get what I mean?
5098890 There isn't necessarily no basis at all for any argument for or against it, just very, very small scraps of evidence that can be expanded upon with enough reasoning. The point of presenting a headcanon in a story without providing an AU tag is to convince the reader that it can exist within the universe of the show. The others are simply encouraging that he could present his headcanon in a way that makes it more believable. The writer decides everything that happens in a story, but the opinion of its quality is based on the reader's agreement with the writer's decisions, or in this case and more understandable cases, why he made those decisions.
5099127
Which I also find a matter of opinion. There's always been an awful lot of people running about on this site telling authors that they're wrong because they don't personally agree and try to scratch up reasons they didn't even base their viewpoint off of to begin with to justify it. Just like there's been hamfisted authors who attack people for having ideas.
Point being, it's pretty rude to basically take something that only the author can decide and tell him he's wrong without irrefutable evidence or strong and plausible analysis. Which I haven't actually seen in this thread yet. The polite thing to do at this point is to wait and see what comes up next, or ask something along the lines of, "Will <such and such> be addressed later on?". If you're criticizing, "Is <this issue> going to be addressed shortly or might you have forgotten to add it earlier on?"
But I'm basically just seeing folks taking the roundabout way to tell the author he's wrong and making demands. Personally, that rubs me the wrong way. I feel that should rub everyone the wrong way. Some people disagree, which is fine. Others believe it's their duty to treat authors like that, which is not fine. I'm not sure which the folks in this comments thread are yet, but I'm going to toss my two cents in before it can reach that point and offer advice.
I was interested partway through, but that final sentence truly bought it for me. You've given life to the very real conflict someone can feel when caught between friends, and you've showed a flawed Twilight who knows that what she's doing is wrong. I don't agree with a homophobic mane 6, but you've still written them believably (if they were to actually be homophobic, which I honestly can hardly imagine (but then again, I've never encountered the problem of homophobia in a friend. Casual soon-to-be-former acquaintances, but never friends (which is an astounding stroke of luck considering that I grew up in Oklahoma(!)). I suppose that experiencing that would make this feel less jarring)).
I am surprised that this will become TwiDash, though--Twilight was entirely focused on their reaction to Rainbow Dash and didn't worry about them learning about her own sexuality at all (although being too worried over this issue to think about that wouldn't be strange for Twilight). Her thoughts were about not thinking being gay was bad, related to her only by virtue of her friends. Is she perhaps demisexual? Or maybe bi, but for whatever reason not realizing that there isn't much difference to the homophobic?
.
I had though this would be a matter of her supporting Rainbow purely as a friend (which seems to be rare in coming-out stories; there's almost always romance involved), although TwiDash is tied as my favorite pairing so I'm not displeased in the least
What now really interests me, though, is what Celestia's view on homosexuality is. Considering that she's just about the most important pony in the world to Twilight, that seems like it would play an important role in whatever course of action she decides to take. Although Twilight is admittedly extremely undersocialized and has avoided ponies until she met her friends, she was surprised to find that somepony thought homosexuality was wrong--is even she so unaware as to have never even heard of homophobia? Or does Equestria follow the same pattern of being more tolerating in urban/suburban areas and less so in rural? If so... heh, I'd like to see Rarity's reaction to finding out what the real lords and ladies think of her prejudices.
Minor nitpick. "Y'all" is a contraction of "you all", so saying it to Rainbow alone doesn't work.
You'd think Fluttershy, at least, would know better. A number of animals engage in homosexuality (around 1,500 species). It's quite common in some--a full 1/4th of black swans relationships are homosexual. Bonobo apes are universally bisexual, bottlenose dolphins have figured out homosexual oral sex, and 45% of elephant sexual encounters in captivity are same-sex. About 1/10th of domestic rams have sex exclusively with other rams.
Anyways, this is now favorited.
#1 rule of living a happy life - Don't lie to be liked. Twilight is a fool for thinking that others judgmental opinions were more important to her than what HER opinion was. Twilight, you are a fool. Great story btw, I like forward to reading more if this is continued!
5100959 If you lie to be liked, you aren't actually the one being liked at all... hopefully it won't take too long for Twilight to figure that out.
Anyways, I don't quite think that was it. Rather than putting their opinions about Rainbow Dash above her own, she put the friendship of four ponies above her own self-esteem and the friendship--and happiness--of a fifth. (I'm terrible at math and have no real interest in the field, but now I want to make (or find) a friendship equation showing that helping Rainbow Dash is the mathematically correct thing a friend should do).
5103337 Ah thank you very much for helping me refine my inadequate expressions. Anyways yes, I completely agree with you. Now all we have to do is wait for more! :D
I'll say this out of the gate. There's merit to this idea, that being said, I don't believe this is the best execution for it.
I'll start with the good. I liked how you portrayed Twilight and her reaction, and basically falling to peer pressure. The act itself was pretty convincing.
That being said, there are a few issues I have with it. The same being with Twilight. Twilight is an enquiring mind, and I'm very highly doubtful that the "four against one" thing would be the only thing going through her head, which to the story's credit, it wasn't, but it was certainly the most prevailing argument, despite being one of the weakest arguments for it. I'm willing to give that the benefit of the doubt, though, since that could be the big lesson learned here.
Another thing is basically the rest of the Mane Six. I have no trouble believing that homophobia could exist in Equestria. Strongest evidence for that is the episode Bridle Gossip. Ponies seem to fear the unknown/what they don't understand, Ponyville especially it seems. I also wouldn't have (much) trouble believing that Applejack and Rarity being that way, to an exaggerated extent, I mean. But I cannot, and will not believe that Pinkie and (especially) Fluttershy would be that way. The very probability that all of them would be that way is just as unrealistic to me as all of them being Lesbians (especially for each other), at the same time. Pinkie Pie would be the most likely pony to not give an absolute fuck. And Fluttershy has been Rainbow's friend for so long, that I can't imagine she'd throw it away over something like this. It's not in her nature either.
I could give you Pinkie under very specific circumstances, and I have my own idea's of what they could be but I won't say so until after the rest of the fic comes out, in case I end up stepping on any toes, but I would have personally tried to find a way to remove Fluttershy from the situation if you wanted a M6 vs Dash type of story, because that just shatters my suspension of disbelief the most in regards to it.
I will keep an eye on this though, but I don't believe that it's been executed the best way.