Why does Princess Celestia leave Twilight to face all the villains?
Sunset Shimmer has returned to Equestria, to confront her former teacher.
The solar princess decides it's time to answer Sunset's questions.
Chapters (1)
SquiggelSquirrel
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A very interesting take on the problem.
Do you intend to continue it?
7958891 Ah, no. Completed, just missed that I hadn't marked it as such. Thanks.
7958899 You are welcome!
Yep... this perspective is going to stick in my head for a while, or even permanently.
Interesting take on the similarities and differences between Sunset, Princess Celestia and Twilight. Though in-show it does seem like Twilight almost worships Princess Celestia, but I like this interpretation of Twilight's actions as a Princess compared to Celestia. As well as a decent reason for why Celestia just sits around eating cake rather than dealing with more problems.
Sunset often does seem more like Princess Celestia than Twilight, though that might've contributed to their eventual rift too (likes repel sometimes). A good deal of angst, but I'm glad the Luna appearance offset it a bit.
+1. Headcanon acquired.
Nice to see morally ambiguous Celestia.
Favourited and liked.
I really can't say more than that; I was never really a wordsmith, able to precisely say (or, since this isn't a sound-based form of communication, write) how I felt about something. I'd say "amazing", but that seems a bit...generic. Besides, other readers have already basically said how I felt, so I don't want to sound/read like a parrot.
A very well-written character piece. I really liked the way you dig into the different characters and their viewpoints, giving each their fair shake, not absolutely condemning one or the other. In a lot of works, the whole "kill your friends for the greater good or try to save everyone" dilemma is often played as having one unequivocally "right" answer that the opposing "side" gets dunked on for not agreeing with, but this was a very thoughtful, nuanced exploration of the concept that doesn't just boil it down to a straightforward answer. Nicely done.
A good story well told, and very plausible. There were a couple of minor text quibbles, but frankly that’s better than a lot of fiction from major publishing houses these days.
I think this would be much better without the Sunset/Twilight bit. The drama, the drama, the drama... And Luna. It was complete, then. The last bit is unnessesary.
Wow. Amazing fic that addresses Celestia, Sunset and Twilight in a very believable way. I address a very similar point to the one you're making in one of my own fics.
To quote Superman from Injustice Gods Among Us:
"We never know what we're truly capable of."
Indeed, Twilight is different.
An intriguing, but pleasant read
I'm not really feeling it, to be honest. Not the morally ambiguous take on Celestia, but rather the way it it describes Twilight and Sunset.
We see Sunset trusts Celestia absolutely (Which for Celestia is "The Problem".) while Twilight makes a habit of questioning and doubting...
Except as far as I can think of, this is not really the case, sometimes to the detriment of the show itself. Twilight rather has a tendency to simply go right along with whatever Celestia has ordered her to do... even when it seems to completely fly in the face of everything Twilight has learned thus far. (Tirek, The Crystal Empire)
By comparison, Sunset is an outright rebel. Whatever flaws she may have had, unquestioning obedience was never one of them.
Taken that way, which is at least how I see it, the whole basis of the story kind of falls apart.
Ok, first of all:
OMG FEATURED FRONT PAGE EVERYONE THANK YOU!!!
(*ahem*)
7962489 A Luna cameo kinda completes any story, but I wanted Sunset to reflect on what she'd learned.
7962837 Belief and obedience aren't always the same, is my take on it. You can believe in a deity but still defy them, or obey without really believing in them. At the very least, I think Twilight has displayed a lack of blind faith right from S1E1, also in "A bird in the hoof" and "Lesson Zero". As for Sunset, I guess I see her as the rebellious teen who nonetheless never quite sees their parent as only human — rebelling against authority, not actually questioning whether that authority exists in the first place.
As for the rest of you, well, thank you, again.
ho
ly
shit
"Sunset, when you adopt a name in the way I have, you are making a promise to yourself to live up to that name and all it represents... but she,,,? She was the one who broke that promise. She is the one who does not deserve the name 'Celestia'. She is my secret... She is my shame!"
"What I did, I did without choice."
"I know."
"In the name of peace, Harmony and all My Little Ponies."
"Yes... but not in the name of Celestia."
Woah, I wish people will think more and less about assuming Celestia is a tyrant, I mean come on, it's either you or great minds like this author that make the decision to teach you. Don't assume things yourself if you are unsure. Search. Ask. It's what friends are for. I hope this fanfic gets more views, the fandom deserves to know about this!
I have been musing recently with a very similar concept.
I was worried it would be too similar for comfort but indeed they are more than different enough.
Good one shot.
7962837
I noticed that as well.
If Celestia went all "Solar Flare", Twilight Sparkle's first reaction would be to try to save her beloved mentor. That hesitation might doom the world and all the little ponies in it. Twilight isn't ruthless enough to protect Equestria from what Celestia fears she might become. So Celestia turns to Sunset Shimmer instead. Works for me.
A while after reading this, I stumbled across a picture that reminds me very much of Sunset's vision in this story. "Beautiful and Terrible" is by Greviousfan. Check it out here: http://grievousfan.deviantart.com/art/Beautiful-and-Terrible-564831840
7962876 It's not about the cameo. With 3 lines she nullified all the effect and suspense of... everything before that. 'Yeah yeah. I've heard that one before.' Dismissive, and with a good reason.
But, oh well.
Twilight, "Celestia, why do you dump all the super villains on me?"
Celestia, "Because the show needs conflicts to be solved by the main cast, and I pretty much can't do anything anyway. I mean, Luna and I couldn't even stop a snow storm. For demi-goddesses, we really suck."
Twilight
"So meta..."
7964497
Celestia: That's why we have fans who write us as badasses
Seems like this points to Celestia making sure that there is a balance of rule between Twilight and Shimmer in the same way there is between her and Luna.
Having served in the U.S. military I also understand the challenge of making a life or death choice between more then one person.
The choice of how far over the line you can go for someone else and come back and the cost for crossing it.
A similar theory here is a mother who has to chose between saving her own child and someone else's child.
Ah. This again. Because of course a realistic character needs to have a dark and edgy past with horrible deeds to balance out any apparent benevolence. Why do people keep writing this story?
I very much like this story, but I just can't find that "Twilight questions Celestia all the time" part. The only times I remember her actually acting against what the Princess said in the show, it was never to her face, always when manure had hit the fan so much already that there wasn't even a Celestia around to stand up to.
I mean, she grumbled a bit about Celestia telling her not to pursue the Nightmare Moon lead, but didn't say anything to her. She went up to evict a dragon with ponies she still barely knew, and two of them at best actually suited for the task. She went to the Crystal Empire with practically no information, without asking if there was any information. She even went crazy on the mere assumption of what Celestia might want of her.
7962876
I think that especially episodes like Lesson Zero and A Bird In The Hoof show Twilight's blind faith in Celestia, in one of the worst stages: blindly following her without her on mere assumptions, not because she said or did something but just on what they think she might want. And that's even more dangerous than what Celestia is talking about. Considering Twilight seriously believed her kind and benevolent mentor to imprison and exile her over a missed homework, one can only guess what Celestia would actually have to do for Season 2 Twilight to speak up against her.
OK, regarding Twilight's attitude to Celestia, I'll concede that I maybe didn't do the best job sticking to show canon. If I'd left out Celestia's description of Twilight's "questioning nature" altogether, and just focused on the heroic vs logic thing, I'd probably have fewer complaints without detracting from the story. If I'd handled it better, I could maybe have improved the story, even though it wasn't really the main point I wanted to get at.
7966486 In this case, because I'm not really adding anything that isn't already canon, or easily extrapolated from canon — just trying to point out that the show canon itself has a darker aspect that isn't really explored, and would make a pretty good explanation for Celestia's inactivity.
We know she's ruled Equestria for over a thousand years. Her authority seems to border on absolute, which technically makes her a dictator (benevolent or otherwise). I think it's pretty unlikely that there's never been a war in all that time, and at least in one canonical alternate timeline, Celestia is sending ponies into battle — they may not explicitly mention death in the show, but it seems like a pretty big stretch to me to suppose that all pony "wars" are completely bloodless food-fights. Especially not with pony armour, spears, and so forth.
That implies Celestia has been responsible for pony deaths — the way a monarch is during times of war. She may have done the best she could to avoid it but frankly, if she doesn't feel the weight of that responsibility, then she isn't benevolent.
We also know she exiled her own sister to the moon for a thousand years. She turned Discord into stone. All this is canon.
The only things I've added, really are:
1. Execution of traitors. Maybe canon Equestria never had a death penalty, even in times of war. So, she had them imprisoned instead? Still a dark aspect to rulership.
2. The concept of "Nightmare Sun", or whatever you want to call her. But even without that, the point should remain — Celestia wields absolute power, and if she's really benevolent, she should be aware of what a heavy responsibility that is, and the dangers of corruption. “Nightmare Sun” is a way of simplifying that, nothing more.
Realistic characters don't need a dark side. Realistic monarchs who wield absolute authority automatically have a dark side, right there, we just tend to glaze over it.
I feel like the author and I were watching two separate shows. I've never got the impression that Twilight ever questioned Celestia until maybe the most recent seasons. She was always the blindingly loyal tool obsessed with what her teacher thought of her. I also never got the impression that Sunset did not question Celestia at nearly every turn, especially in the later part of her stint as the Personal Student.
I see the parts where Twilight would not sacrifice another for Equestria and try her hardest to save another. I also get the feeling that Sunset might be more likely to make the choice to sacrifice others for the sake of the whole.
7966736
Care to actually support that claim?Edit: Wow that came out pissier than I intended.
I don't agree with any of your reasoning, all of which seems to stem from the idea that a ruler must be tainted in some way. That idea isn't obviously true, and I want to know where you're getting it from.
Like others, my immediate reaction up reading the "Twilight is always questioning me" line was an emphatic "LOLWUT?"
But, it doesn't really matter. This is an excelent story . Thumbs up from me.
Oh well done. Very well done indeed.
This is also a topic that's rattled around my head for quite some time, so I'm glad to see someone tackle it.
7967171
7966501
7962837
She was quite ready to scream right in Celestia's face when the latter brought Discord into their town. And she directly went against Celestia's orders that she had to personally save the Crystal Empire too.
I wouldn't call that absolute blind faith.
7967928
She held on to Celestia's (frankly idiotic) orders in the Crystal Empire right up until she had absolutely no choice not to, and the only reason Spike was available at the end was because he insisted very strongly that he come along after Twilight tripped the door trap.
Discord is just about the only time she really truly doubts Celestia's decision to her face. Ultimately this suggests it is an exception, rather than the rule.
7967941 I agree, it's the exception. But it also goes against Twilight blindly accepting everything asked of her. For that matter, we also saw her go against Celestia's orders in the very first episode. Celestia told her to make friends, Twilight didn't try because she believed it more important to be ready for Nightmare Moon.
7966486 I don't think I'd say that. The story still showed Celestia as benevolent, it just said that she has flaws like everyone else. Sending ponies to war for a good cause doesn't "balance out any apparent benevolence" it just shows that rulers sometimes have to make hard decisions in the name of the greater good.
7967928
Like I already said:
She went to the Crystal Empire on barely any information, not asking for any information or questioning if maybe putting a whole country's safety on the line for a test was such a good idea. There's a difference between questioning orders, and not following because there simply is no available option to do so.
And even after they saved the day and the Empire, without any casualties, Twilight actually went back to panicking and thinking that she had done something wrong simply because she didn't save the Empire exactly the way Celestia wanted.
The time when Celestia told her to free Discord might qualify, but it's still one example against a dozen, and she still did as instructed after Celestia told her she was serious with only a minimum of explanation.
(And it came back to bite her half a dozen times before it actually did any good)
7967371 An absolute ruler is responsible for what happens to the people they rule over. The world isn't perfect, so some suffering and death is inevitable. A good ruler makes the best decisions they can, but sometimes there is no perfect answer, and people will suffer, no matter what you do. There's always the question "could I have done better?". There's always the question "what gives me the right to make these decisions?".
The weight of that responsibility, the uncertainty of it, the certainty that one day you will make a mistake (because everyone does), and that people will be hurt by it, all that adds up to what I would call the "dark side" of being a ruler.
Or are you going to tell be that banishing your own sister to the moon for a thousand years is not, in any way, "dark"?
7967371
Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. (What a confusing way to word this)
7968674
No. Ultimately people are responsible for themselves. This reasoning only works if you eliminate all forms of choice from the population. In which case you're not talking about Celestia, you're talking about Sombra.
At its most selfish, it was an act of pure self-defense.
At its most selfless, it was an act of extreme self-sacrifice for the benefit of her nation.
Yes, I am absolutely going to say that it was not dark. Tragic, yes. Painful, yes. Ruthless, possibly. Dark, not even a little.
7968843 So you choose to believe a general cliche over specific observations. In other contexts that reasoning would be called profiling, stereotyping, racism, and other generally frowned upon ways of thinking. Hardly a valid argument.
To Celestia:
7967928
To build on what others have already said about your Discord comment, you could consider the encounter with Discord to be one of the most traumatic experiences, for its time, these characters experienced. Especially previously shut-in, now out and experiencing everything she missed in life up to her going to Ponyville, Twilight Sparkle. In fact, in a more realistic setting, the experience could have instilled a bit of PTSD. So her reaction when Celestia delivers Discord is built up on a lot of stressors, so it can be considered an exception.
Twilight is also not this beautiful saint that the author has painted her to be. Lesson Zero pretty much stands as a big red flag, but as the argument stands, it can pretty much be attributed to an exception. The point is, she's not as perfectly saintly as the author seems to think. I also want to state that she is my least favorite character of the main cast, so I already have a level of bias against her.
That bit with Luna was perfect for balancing the mood.
7965878 Discord waves a banner that says, "At least I'm useful sometimes!"
hmmm it's alright...
7966486 Well THAT was a terrible post, I sure hope nothing worse comes al-
7969078 Oh goddammit.
This is where the story breaks down for me.
Twilight is very explicitly blindly obedient and devout to Celestia even after being raised to her nominal equal, to the point it seems to actually annoy Celestia.
Where Sunset got kicked out for being well....too questioning.
It feels in a lot of ways more of a character shill for twilight than a questioning on why does Celestia raise others up.
7966736
That wasn't her though that was the elements, she just used them.
It was written well and conveyed excellently, though you seem to fall short a bit on the characterizations of Twilight and Sunset's character. You almost have them flipped, as Twilight was for the first several seasons of the show very trusting of Celestia to a fault.
7974442 I'm inclined to agree, but I'm not going to change it now, and if one more person points it out I think I might start getting sarcastic.
(No offense)