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At this point I have to agree with fireflutterpony's comment from a week ago: it's a great worldbuilding but I truly dislike everyone involved in the world you have painted for us.
If Tim is having such a hard time and is so willing to go native, why not go "full native" with hooves and everything? I mean at this point being human is being such a chore for him so why keep being one? Twilight proved to us that it could be done after all.
I find debatable that he has to adopt equestrian cultural norms, in fact I think that he really should fight for his cultural values since he's the only human and once he dies or goes full native it will be lost forever, and I like to think that the princesses would be willing to preserve such a unique thing in their world. No one so far has been truly sympathetic with him regarding the culture shock or preserving his own values, most of the "support" being reduced to "suck it up and get on with it" with a little of emotional blackmail on the side to be sure that he feels bad for not being a proper equestrian and a proper doll.
Tim should leave all of them, go far from these abusive manipulators and find a mare (or stallion, at this point even his sexuality isn't really clear) and try to be happy with someone who really accepts who he is. Cleary these ones aren't doing a good job at that.
Ok... should my feelings on Cadance from the last chapter change?
8612130
Well, at least she's actually showing that she knows how bad she f*cked up with her part in things. That's an improvement. Not feeling any better about Twi though, what with her hiding behind royal privilege every other sentence. Just because something's legal doesn't make it right.
This story has been bothering me for a while. Don't get me wrong it is interesting and I like the social dynamic you have created with Equestrians but I usually like to read stories like this for the express purpose of seeing cultures clash. And I don't see that starkly enough to really sympathize with any of the characters now. The mares are upset which is understandable, then after Tim explains his reasoning they still hold him to the same standard they would a normal stallion and completely undercuts their sympathy for his situation and culture. I am not saying you should just forgive and forget but because of their lack of curiosity and concern as to a why this happened they simple think punishing him until he reconciles is good enough. I don't like these characters anymore. But I am most upset with Tim, he is so whimpy and so concerned for how the ponies feel that it isn't believable that he wouldn't have some other emotion other than guilt. He doesn't stand up for himself ever, granted he doesn't have a right to but humans aren't rational beings and being in such an abnormal relationship will put stress on a guy. He just takes it as is like he doesn't remember what relationships use to be like. If he doesn't want to be a studhorse then stop acting like one. I could just be reading about a stallion and his herd for all the difference they have.
Huh. There is probably going to be a duel in the future.
Fuck this. Tim ought to man up and put Citrus and his mares in their damn places; and stop them all from treating him and Silver as second class citizens. Were it me in this situation, I'd tell everyone to fuck off and just leave. And Twilight and Cadence and their "Royal Privilege" can fuck right off, too. If Tim doesn't man the fuck up and stop acting like a little equestrian pony's bitch, I'm probably going to drop this story. Fuck this matriarchal society bullshit.
DEATH BY SNU-SNU!
8612127
No kidding. The emotionless sex with North sounds like a great way to make sure an animal knows where the sex is at. Also sounds like a great way to drive someone with emotions and sapient thought away.
Really hope Tim and the griffon work out, just to stick it to everyone in this messed up situation.
Incredibly fed up with theTwilight and Cadance arc in this tale. I’m done.
All I’m seeing projected is excuses for Twilight to be accepted in the future.
Alright, apparently I should have made it more clear, this is rock bottom. The turnaround is around the bend, and things will get better. This is relationship drama. I've had to deal with enough drama in my life, hitting rock bottom sucks. Life can't be all happy happy joy joy. If readers are out, I'm sorry to hear that. I'm continuing with the story as I see it. And the current issues will be resolved. I hope most of you enjoy what's coming down the pike.
Yeah... I think I'm done. This is a nice story, but I came here for something I don't think this is anymore. I'm off in search of happier things. Good luck to you.
8612212
Second this, it's like this guy has zero testosterone in him at all. Pretty much any human male has SOME sort of... umf to them that makes them male. Even the most feminine ones that I've seen have it in some small dose. Tim feels like a guy that is being writen from a females perspective, utterly lacking of any backbone. At this point I'd wonder if he had a hormone imbalance, but even then...
In all honesty this chapter needs. Complete rework, Tim being a wimpy spineless bitch and the mares being controlling distant assholes is really annoying. Tim SHOULD leave the herd, if only because his mates have become terrible manipulative ponies who keep pushing for more and more apologies and proof of his loyalty when all they do is punish him and keep him distant. I’m sorry man but unless this chapter goes over a MAJOR rewrite I think this is the end for this story for me which sucks seeing as I’ve followed it since day 1
8612314 I don't think anyone is upset about the relationship drama, and no one is asking "gee it should all end with all happy and with their herd held strong!", or at least that's not the message I'm reading from all the comments. This is also your story and you will obviously develop and end it as you want and see fit and I don't think anyone wants to make you think any different either.
Thing is, and I'm talking for myself here, that I think the conflict is inevitable and no one expected anything less, but I don't feel like Tim is a real person at all as how he's been portraited, and the ponies are nothing short of uncaring here, showering Tim and the readers with sweet nothings while their actions tell a radically different story... and Tim is taking it all like some kind of sponge. And if I'm being honset, I don't expect any positive resolution from this, even if this is rock bottom.
I mean, nothing short of Tim leaving for a healthier and whole relationship would suffice for a "not really happy at least it's not THAT" ending. I mean, best of cases? He gets hitched in a somewhat "human-ish" relationship with a native and living somewhat happily while in his heart he will be remembering those sweet first days of giving the relationsip with ponies a go, fovever thinking about "what if's" and filled with some kind of guilt... or something like that. Obviously this isn't the way it's going to go (and if it is I swear I'm not a psyker!) but it's an example.
I don't think you're going to do that of course. You have developed a fantastic premise and lots of characters and it's more probable that this next arc is going to be some kind of reconciliation arc, with some kind of feels talk or the like, but as deep as this "rock bottom" has gone any light is going to be dimmer than a candle dying under a storm.
Just my opinion. I'm not getting off this ride, but now I'm in more for cold curiosity on how this is going to end than any investment I had in the characters. You provoked quite the reaction, so you did something very right to push some buttons after all. Keep up the good work, and let's see where this goes.
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We fucked up. We're sorry. How could we have handled this better without betraying the sociological angle or giving anyone the karma houdini treatment? We're sorry we botched this. What would it take to set things right or at least make them understandable?
This is fucked. So completely fucked.
You'd think the culture clash would make the herd more compassionate towards Tim for this, but nope. Let's just forget that fact.
The girls should apologise for assuming that he knows about how pony relationships work despite him telling the he has no idea.
*Pokes her head out from stables 003* Yep not save here. *Goes back inside to wait longer. Fallout HI!*
8612446
yeah you'd think with a world of talking thinking creatures that aren't ponies they would understand not everyone has the same relationship dynamic as they do.
Yeah the sheer lack of understanding of culture shock and his inability to stand up for himself seems incredibly...I dunno. Flat. If a human wore a load of pheromone sex inducing shit, then got with a girl it wouldnt be the girls fault, it would be rape. The fact that they go “Well you did it chemicals/magic ignored.” Shows how second class males are here.
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Okay, first off, as to comments about Tim. The problem is two fold for him. He feels guilty for what he did, and doesn't make excuses for why he did it. Even though the herd actually is forgiving of WHY he did it. It doesn't stop the fact that he is having to endure what is a normal way to ensure stallions don't repeat such mistakes. It's unfair to him, true. But just remember the saying in our world, "If Momma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy" Tim is not a pansy ass, but feels guilty, and the punishment he's having to endure is driving him deeper into the doldrums. But he wants to make things right. He is, in the end, a good person. And it has explained that enduring the punishment is something that has to be done. And, he is in an completely different world, he's not going to be able to force the ponies to accept his culture, he's not in his culture, he's in theirs. Now, as things progress, perhaps he will be able to push back, and get some more consideration for his own inculcated bias and beliefs. There is a basic failure to communicate, which is a problem in real life. I'm going to do a minor edit here, as proposed by my editor. I think it helps for how the girls are seeing that what is expected isn't happening. Remember, they are not trained in cultural norms. They only have what they grew up with. And yes, what works for pony stallions doesn't work nearly as well for human males. Seeing as there is a plethora of comments with the same basic gripe, it will be addressed. And it's funny, because some of what you are griping about has already been addressed in 20. Though some clarification may be added to the chapter before release.
EDIT: Edits to the last part of the chapter have been completed.
8612405 I don't think you botched it, really. For all we know you all had everythng already planned to end the story in a satisfying way! It's just that until we arrive there the road you took isn't the one we, or at least I, wanted. Not even what I expected, just what I wanted. Don't feel bad for that.
I personally expected more arguing in the herd in some way, hell even when they were starting. I don't feel for Tim because he says he's umcomfortable but doesn't act upon it, even when it's getting so bad he's getting some level of psychological trauma from this for sure. I don't feel for any of the ponies because so far they've been basically culturally racist towards him and that's pretty cruel for them, not just merely culturally insensitive but plain cruel, punishing him for his faux pas and not taking him in consideration for citing a couple of this they do regurarly. Maybe that's what you wanted to show us, that it was one of their flaws? That's not counting the tyrannical tendencies of our beloved bookhorse. We know she had some liking to organize and giving orders to others but I think no one expected this. Again, maybe that was your angle, to show us a more mature and dark taking on Equestria. So far it's working like a charm.
Those are my main gripes with the story, and others may have their own. I'm not sure what else to say since I really don't want you feel attacked or anything. As I said, I think we need to wait and see what happens next before casting a truly final veredict... and even that doesn't mean that it's badly written or anything. Just don't be surprised if not everyone is happy at the end of it, but then again maybe, in some way, was the aim of it. Try your best as you've been doing.
8612314
Sparky, I don't think anything short of Tim growing a spine and leaving the herd will satisfy some here. As for me, I'm sticking it out to watch the fireworks. I will say this though. I would never, NEVER, let a female do to me what Tim is suffering through. I don't care if their culture thinks it's okay or not, I know that mine does not. I have too much self respect for myself to let that happen. I would be out of there before you could say "go".
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I've thought about it and I'll stick it out for just a little longer, but it's less you botched up and more... the overall bad vibes getting to me. I get it's rock bottom, and it's not supposed to feel nice, but I generally have difficulty at these points. It just felt like not a single being is happy here and they all realize it but not a lot was being done and nopony seemed to want to do anything except keep these cycles going.
The edit does give me hope, though, go North.
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yea they seemed to have for gotten that he comes from a race that usually has only one partner at a time and that partner can stay with them for life
Let's be a bit more clear here. I know people are upset with the cultural matriarchal dynamic here. I am too but I actually think that is great and is exactly what I am looking for in a story. This is a different society after all it should be as different as the writer possible express. If the author is purposefully portraying the equines this way to highlight how different cultures can be, I love it. Really I do.
But what I think the authors is missing in the comments is not of the more well intentioned readers and less socially tolerant is that we are upset with the lack of CULTURAL PUSHBACK. There isn't even a little bit here. Sure Tim talked to Luna and she explained it to him and the readers but it seems the readers don't think that Tim just accepting that without any struggle to understand or deal with is what's got everyone so worked up.
It just not enough and too big a pill for the readers to swallow and it is the writer's number one job to convince their readers that their fictional world is completely plausible and possible within it's context. If it can't do that then people tend to stop and think, question the stories structural integrity which the author never wants. They want to keep the illusion of fiction going.
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CULTURAL PUSHBACK. This. Right. Here. Tim is NOT A FUCKING STALLION; ergo, he should NOT have to put up with the mare's abusive bullshit. Tim is a fucking HUMAN and needs to ACT LIKE ONE! Also, the princesses, Twilight and Cadance need to be held accountable for their actions in this, matriarchal society be damned.
Shit, if it was me - after apologizing and explaining myself for my actions - if I was subject to this shit by my mares I would LEAVE to be by myself for a time; then, much later I'd swear right off pony mares and try with the Griffin gal, and see what that's like.
this story is bad, and all of the characters in it are without any redeeming qualities. after this chapter, i think they should all die in a fire. your human has no spine whatsoever, and is sad and pitiful.
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Just add memory loss to the list of problems characters seem to have.
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exactly
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This is one of those stories where it's like, "Oh, this was a great story about human/pony relations, herd life and dynamics and culture, world building, etc... but then the author went and did this bullshit..." Like Cultural Artefacts by Dan's Comments - a great human/pony first contact story until the Author went bugfuck insanity and the story became so bloody long and complicated that I just dropped it. Ugh... North coldly rutting Tim and Silver m-sturbating to it; YUCK, I'd throw that BITCH off me then shove my BOOT up that stallion's ass, "GET OUT!" ... And the little bit of editing at the end of this Chapter still doesn't make it right.
8612460
I think that any sane person would be mad at a loved one for committing adultery against them, but the punishment that's setup here is beyond fucked up. Ever heard the term fighting fire with fire? That's the vibe I've got here. This society can be different, but damn, could it at least make sense? This stuff would scar a person into thinking that they can't make any mistakes without huge repercussions. Make a different society than ours, but shit; my suspension of disbelief just flew out the window.
Mix that with the fact that literally every character has forgotten he ISN'T A FUCKING LOCAL, my drive to continue reading is wavering.
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Yes, very true. This is fighting fire with fire. Tim is learning that to be the case. I know with most humans, this method will not work. But this is the way a pony thinks. They are collective thinkers, the worst punishment for a human is death. The worst punishment for a pony is banishment. In fact, this punishment is a virtual banishment. And is designed to get the stallion to understand what was done wrong and to mitigate it. Tim is learning.
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If this hasn't scarred ponies in this societies past then these ponies must have an impossibly strong mental fortitude from the get-go. That's my issue, I can't see this working without something like that being true. I wouldn't learn 'the error of my ways', I'd have PTSD.
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Well, considering the mane 6 have all nearly been killed dozens of time and are mostly no worse for wear...
Please don't denigrate PTSD. I actually have it. Most people can take tough times and a few hard knocks. This isn't the kind of thing to induce PTSD. Now, did you see the ending. Clearly somepony has decided enough is enough.
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Tim is being tortured by a group that, even if they do love him, objectify him. They've practically put a leash around his neck and then spout sweet nothings and demands of conformation to their culture without even so much as an inkling of thought towards his. Nothing more toxic than a jailer who loves his inmates. Tim gets no sympathy in this matter either, horn dog cant keep it in his pants, and is...just a doormat. Even when trying to speak up for himself its just meek excuses, if a male of any species said they'd mount me there would absolutely be a physical confrontation. I stuck with this for a while hoping it would turn around but reading the life and times of Tim the Meek is just making me ill, think I'll drop this story, good luck on...whatever this has turned into.
8612615
Yeah, and I criticize the show for that. The show suffers from writing issues, and I don't deny that. We're not talking about the show, though. "But they do/did it" is a terrible argument.
This isn't just some 'tough time'. This is being abused daily by someone you love. If you think that stuff like that doesn't cause mental scarring in people, then you clearly don't understand the human psych. Also, denigrating PTSD would be me criticising PTSD, not providing a situation in which it'd clearly happen.
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I wouldn't say PTSD, but depths of depression. And With the edits, much of this will be addressed. Thank you for the criticism, this is an opportunity to make not only this story, but all of my work better.
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I hope so, man. I really do. I can't just drop something if I think it can be improved, otherwise I'd of just left without any word.
That being said, if nothing changes, I might. I don't want to, but this is like the 2nd strike for me.
8612618
That's in the plans. This is a wakeup call. Things are going to change, starting from the very first sentence of the next chapter.
Tim does come from a patriarchal culture and while he is trying to get along as a lonely alien in a strange land, at some point being treated as a child, a animal and not a full domestic partner is going to fry his mind. Anger, even rage at such treatment would be expected. Yes, he wants to fit in and not make waves. Twilight and those around her would have been smarter but that was then. If the mares in the herd don't smarten up, he will reach humiliation saturation and the primitive, the tool using problem bashing mentality will emerge. Trying to use pony tools for conditioning and control on a non pony is a recipe for disaster. Or, his depression will grow to the point of self harm. If they woke up to find him bled out or hanging from the rafters, I would not be suprised. The idiot balls came in a case because everyone has one. I fear that only after disaster will their ability to see common sense return.
Hoo boy this chapter was a doozy. I think this kind of punishment, namely being engaged in a soulless sex act multiple times, by a loved one no less, I think it would hurt me more then getting beat up... I don't know about the character, but for me it would be a black mark that would never go away, even if we chose to spend the rest of forever together. I can't get the 'I'm hurting you because I care' attitude the mares seem to have, that would just push me away.
Now beyond how this made me feel, the actual development of the plot has reached a really difficult section, and in my opinion the consequences of how the ponies treated the human seem to outweigh how he treated them... but not by a lot. I see no easy way of fixing this, there will be need of a long period of trust building and cultural exchange and angry sex, and who knows what more to iron out a middle ground in this relationship.
I'm also gonna take the time to point out something that's been bugging me for a while... Said human has fallen in love with Citrus in an organic, built up way, but to me the rest of the herd was adopted faster and faster with not enough time between members to justify the love. Attraction, companionship and friendship? Yes, but not love yet. This could make the strain of whats happening too much, I certainly would be grasping at air and asking why am I here anymore...
All in all, I'm just waiting to see where this goes.
Well it was nice while it lasted but now I find tue cast nearly completely unlikeable and the drama bomb was unnecessary. I think you have a good idea but are doing it in a way that is killing the story Tim comes off as weak and unable to stand up for himself and the rest of the herds treatment comes off excessively demeaning and harsh, even given the act infidelity. I really wanted to like this and the earlier chapters had such promise but this whole cheating arc has driven the story down. I hope things change drastically and the characters regain their original personalities because right now this is just painful to read about.
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Very well, I'll give it one more chapter, its well written and I don't want to drop it.
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Completely off-topic here, but isn't your avatar the logo for Psygnosis Limited? The video game developer that made a bunch of really fun games?
Well with this discussion going crazy I'd like to give my own view on the matter.
First of all: don't blame Tim for being a pushover! He is completely dependent on these people. If he were to just walk away Luna would be the only being in the universe that he has some form of meaningful relationship with. She is the only one not part of this mess. I mean even his work is interlinked with his herd.
Basically everyone is handling the situation really poorly. Twilight trying to convince herself she did nothing wrong, Citrus continuing punishment for the sake of punishment, Cadence is just confusing and the one who could help to solve the situation due to her unique insight is doing nothing but giving some would be wise tips. Luna knows Tim has no idea how to deal with the situation, that he has no allies in his case but she doesn't help. She could be the mediator needed.
These things are in no way bad. It is what makes the story interesting if properly discussed and resolved.
What I do have problems with is this sort of punishment. It just clashes with the image of how these ponies are displayed. Sure punishment must be and no sex and/or a night on the couch are viable options to do so and I can accept the rape as part of the culture clash but what they are doing is to cut him of from love. And that is probably as dark as things get. And it doesn't really fit unless I totally missed all the hints that this is one of those AUs where the perfect pony world is built on a totally rotten core.
Lastly I hope we will get some insight into Cadence because I seriously can't make sense of her.
PS: The edit, while not addressing the core points let's the chapter end on a lighter note and shows that it's about to go upwards. I think it benefits the chapter.
PPS: I'm looking forward to the next chapter and to see how you resolve this. Keep it up and don't let the bits of harsher criticism drag you down. You're doing good work.
Mares keep expect him to care how they feel...But none care for his feeling at all...Tim seem being a good pet to everymare in this story. A nice slave...I guess it alright to rape male in this story at this point...
It's herd tradition...The old way that will break the herd itself...Even North feel that too...
Thought, Tim said something right in this story...
"I felt hollow"
...Yes, Tim...You are very hollow here...
Thank you for that edit at the end there. It helps a bit but still completely missed the point of what most people here are talking about, which is cultural clash. I hope to see much more of that in future chapters.
The edit does do a good job of giving a little more incentive to keep reading to see what North can do to help resolve this though(at least someone is waking up and realizing this is the wrong way to handle Tim).
ok after taking a bit of time to think about this chapter i can say it is vary good.
the reason i stopped to think about things is for one huge fact.
this is not earth this is Equestria a land ware mares out number stallions 6 two 1.
so in short Tim is in way over his head hear, he is scared he is not only going to lose Cayenne but the hole heard.
did Twilight mess up yes but it was Cadance pushing from he back ground.
so who is to say who is really at fault over this part.
mu opinion only below.
maybe at some point Dull Armor will stop bleeding from his man gina and his balls will drop and he will put a stop to the mules messing with other pony's love life.
after all he is the lead stallion in his heard even f it is only a heard of two.
back to the story after that rant this is defiantly a low spot for Tim and the hole heard over all things have to get better from hear on.
I've upvoted every comment, because I couldn't agree more with their analysis.
Every single character is unlikeable. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE.
I am still not convinced that Citrus is a manipulative little c----. I am not convinced that Twilight is not OOC, but if she says "Royal Privilege" one more time, I will choke that b--- through my monitor. Only Cadance has the self-awareness of being a jerk. We'll see what she does. But most of all, I am not convinced that the entire herd can be redeemed.
But my biggest issue is with Tim. You made him go full Shinji Ikari. You never let your protagonist go full Shinji!!! I am not convinced he is in love; I still think he is confusing sex with love. Honestly, I have not seen any romance in this since the first few chapters.
As far as the setting goes, you can have a herd society and a matriarchy. But this not just a matriarchal society. This is full-out misandry. Even the Amazons of Themiscyra thinks that this Equestria needs to chill. Any human male that somehow ends up on this world is better off packing up and heading to another country - Griffonia, Zebrica, Yakyakistan, wherever the Minotaurs live, etc.
However, I have faith, and I hope you can pull this off.