• Published 30th Mar 2016
  • 3,814 Views, 75 Comments

A Word With You, My Friend? - DannyJ



Celestia and King Aspen have a much-needed talk. An epilogue to the IDW comics arc, Revenge of Everfree.

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A King Must Have Conviction

At edge of the Everfree Forest, two monarchs watched over Ponyville as the chaos subsided, each of them smiling at the display of cooperation between their peoples. Princess Celestia, radiant and regal as ever, basked in the warmth of her sun as it brightened the town. Beside her, the ruler of the deerfolk of Thicket, King Aspen, held himself with a dignified countenance. His smile was more subdued than Celestia's, but he was no less focused on the events unfolding before them.

Across Ponyville, the wild plantlife from the Everfree which had so recently overrun the town was now receding. To the townsponies, it was a familiar scene. It was not so long ago that this same town had suffered the wrath of the plundervines. But where they had struggled alone against those creations of Discord, here their recovery was assisted by the Everfree deer, who had come from the forest en masse to coax the plants back to where they belonged.

Now the ponies and deer intermingled across the town. Ponies watched with fascination as the deer worked their magic and bent nature to their will, while the deer would move efficiently from plant to plant, keeping their conversation with the ponies polite but brief. They had their jobs to do, after all. And at the forest's edge, their rulers watched both groups in action, each thinking. Each judging.

"It has been many years since I saw your people out in the open," said Princess Celestia. "You really shouldn't keep them all hidden away in that village of yours."

King Aspen gave Celestia a sideways glance, his smile unwavering.

"You know I couldn't do that."

"Mm, I know," Celestia said with a wistful sigh. "You've made that clear before. I just wish that our peoples didn't have to be separated."

"Oh, I know you do." Aspen casually inspected his hooves and flicked some dirt off of them. "It is only in your nature."

Celestia's smile grew wry.

"By the way, Celestia, I have concerns about that pink pony. The one who came up with that awful window design."

She arched an eyebrow.

"Concerns?"

"She seems very hyperactive. Exuberant. I have not had much interaction with her since she came to Thicket, but my son observed her behaviour whilst she was with him. I am concerned that she might carry the taint of chaos upon her."

There was a moment of quiet between the two. Celestia looked out across Ponyville again, searching for Pinkie Pie. Eventually, she spotted her over by a distant building, along with several of the rest of her friends. Blackthorn, Aspen's second-in-command, accompanied the group. As was usual for her, Pinkie Pie bounced around as she followed them, rather than walking like a regular pony.

"Yes, I'd say she very likely does. Pinkie Pie is a chaotic pony. This is to be expected for an Element of Laughter."

Aspen slowly turned his head sideways, his smile slipping away until all that was left was a flat, disapproving stare.

"You would allow chaos to infiltrate your ranks?" he asked.

"Not infiltrate. Exist in. Harmony is about balance, Aspen. We have discussed this. If I tolerate the extremes of total order that you believe in, then I must also make allowances for chaos."

"Is that why you released that foul serpent on our lands once more? To make allowances?"

Celestia remained serene, returning the King's glare with a warm smile.

"Yes. It is."

King Aspen opened his mouth to retort, but was interrupted.

"Anger is a chaotic emotion, you know. It does not suit you, my old friend."

He fell silent and took a deep breath, releasing the tension. Afterwards, all that was left was an expression of mild disgust as he turned to face Celestia again.

"Sometimes I admire what harmony is capable of," he said. "The fact that we manage to coexist is a testament to the merits of your ideology. But there is a reason that the deer do not embrace harmony, Celestia, and it is because of things like this. You allow disorder and mayhem to reign in your kingdom. You disrupt your own peace because you have no will to stamp out a clear threat to it. Were it I that felled Discord, I would not have let him live, much less offered forgiveness. Same goes for your treacherous sister."

"Hm." Celestia glanced skyward. "That's funny. It almost sounds like you just suggested that I depose you."

Now it was Aspen's turn to raise an eyebrow. "When did I say any such thing?"

"Don't play coy with me." Celestia walked around in front of the King, so that she was facing him rather than standing by his side. "You know perfectly well what I'm talking about."

For the first time since the conversation began, Celestia was not smiling.

"I assure you, I do not."

"You just told me that I have no will to stop a threat. By implication, you're telling me that I should stop showing you mercy. That I should bring my armies down here and end you."

King Aspen blinked.

"You dare—"

"I do dare, because we are currently standing amidst the aftermath of an unprovoked attack on a pony settlement that was caused by you."

Aspen's eyes widened. Celestia's smile returned, but it was no longer so warm and welcoming. It had grown predatory.

"Or did you think that I would forget that little detail?"

Still Aspen said nothing. Celestia began to circle him.

"Tell me... you do remember that your mind magic doesn't work on me, don't you?"

Closing his eyes, Aspen let out a long sigh and bowed his head.

"It is a passive effect I am using, not one meant for you. It was to keep those mares complacent so that they would assist in removing the minotaur interloper."

When he opened his eyes, Celestia was standing in front of him again, frowning.

"Leaving aside the unethical uses of mind magic, there was absolutely no need to do that if all you wanted was their help. The Bearers are some of the most considerate, kind-hearted mares you will ever know, and they would've helped you willingly if you had just approached them yourself and asked."

Celestia took a step forward, making Aspen back away slightly.

"Furthermore, if you had only withheld your magic and allowed them to use their own judgement, they would likely have been a lot more effective at it, too. I know Twilight Sparkle well, and I know that if she had been in her right mind at the time, this situation could've easily been resolved without resorting to violence!"

Aspen's nostrils flared, and he also stepped forward, reasserting his position.

"I could not take any risk!" he shouted. "That monster was a minotaur! A creation of Discord! For all I knew, this property development was a calculated and purposeful assault on my territory by the forces of Chaos! And we both know that if that were the case, your precious Elements of Harmony would have sided with that damnable chimera!"

"Don't make excuses, Aspen," said Celestia. "We both know that Discord had nothing to do with this. Greed and arrogance can grip any heart without having to be put there by somebody else. Not every slight against you is part of some great conspiracy."

Aspen snorted.

"You clearly do not know your new ally very well if you believe it beyond the realms of possibility that he is responsible for this."

"That doesn't matter. The point is that you should not have assumed. And even if you were right, the solution you came up with was still wrong."

The King rolled his eyes and shook his head, turning away and walking a few paces towards the forest.

"I cannot win with you ponies. No amount of logic can penetrate your shield of naive idealism. You let chaos fester at the heart of your society and break down what little order you do care to establish. You allow said chaos to encroach upon my territory when your own laws should have prohibited such a thing, if only you had properly enforced them. Then when the rule of pony law has failed me, you dare judge me for taking extreme measures to deal with the problem?"

He turned around and marched back up to Celestia, until he was almost nose-to-nose with her.

"What right have you? By whose authority do you think you can enforce your absurd notions and bizarre moral code upon me?"

"We are the leaders of our respective societies, and we both hold a seat upon the Cosmic Council. I do not invoke higher authority, nor do I need it, because we should be able to speak as equals."

"Feh!" Aspen turned his back on Celestia and walked over to the treeline again.

"And I will say again, your approach to handling this whole incident was flawed. If you were simply going to lay waste to Well-To-Do's construction project and leave him to the mercy of the forest animals, then why not do that in the first place? Why drag ponies into the matter?"

Aspen slowly turned his head to look back at Celestia.

"Because, you sanctimonious nag, my kingdom is an enclave on Equestrian soil, and I am bound to obey your laws when I step outside Thicket. I would not have committed an act of violence against a citizen of Equestria unless it was sanctioned by a royal, which it was when Blackthorn led the attack to free me."

"So you would have me believe that all of this was for my benefit? Because you respect my law?"

"Funnily enough, yes." Aspen gestured over to Ponyville. "As absolutely disgusting as it is that you allow chaos to rot away your kingdom from within, you have order as well. Just not as much as I would like. A respect for law is central to order. If I have no respect for your laws, that would be to spit in the face of one of the few things that you have done right since taking rule over ponykind."

He let his hoof drop to the ground.

"Why else would I honour that despicable contract I was made to sign? Have I not demonstrated due deference? I have been a saint throughout this whole affair."

Celestia shook her head and sighed.

"You have respect for the letter of the law, but not its spirit. Ironic, considering the entity you worship. You would not attack Well-To-Do and drive him off yourself because my laws would say you could not. Yet as soon as Twilight Sparkle and her friends were in your territory, you unduly influenced them in order to bring about the exact outcome that my laws were made to prevent."

Aspen silently glared at her.

"And there was no need for any of it," Celestia continued. "Well-To-Do was Equestria's to take care of, as you yourself pointed out. I apologise that we did not respond faster, but if you truly couldn't get a message to me, all you ever needed to do was come to Canterlot and ask for my help in person. Or you could have even gone to Ponyville and asked Twilight! But you wouldn't break your rule about leaving the forest, even when your very way of life was threatened. This is the limitation of total order, Aspen. It's too rigid. This is why ponies embrace harmony."

"To the Abyss with your harmony!" Aspen stomped a hoof. "Harmony has done no favours for my people! Just look at the state of this forest! You ponies can move clouds and direct the winds! Yet here we are, subjected to wild weather all year round! Weather which not even your best pegasi could bring under control for us! All because of that vile crystal tree that you're so insistent on protecting! I do not often compliment the forces of Chaos, but if the plundervines had succeeded and killed Yggdrasil, I would have raised a tankard to Discord in thanks!"

"Do not try to change the subject," Celestia said with a stern inflection. "You know that I'm right. My help was easily within your reach, but your pride and your arrogance wouldn't let you ask for it. Almost everything that has happened here over the last several days is your fault, and I have yet to hear so much as an apology for it. I have already admitted error on my part, and I expect a similar courtesy in return."

Trotting back up to Celestia, Aspen took a deep breath and let it out. When he did, his face shifted to a more neutral expression.

"Fine. I apologise for my improper use of mind magic on your subjects and fellow princess. It was wrong of me, and I shall not do it again."

"And what else?"

"I am also sorry for the violence incited against Well-To-Do and his minions by my commander. I implore you to also forgive Blackthorn. Whether you disagree with his actions or not, they were done out of loyalty to me, and I assure you that he had only good intentions."

"Good. And what else?"

Aspen paused. He looked up at his own forehead for a moment, as if in thought.

"...I apologise for my pride," he finally said. "I should have made greater effort to get in contact with you to resolve the situation peacefully, even if it meant breaking my long-standing rule against deer leaving the forest."

His eyes darted over to the edges of Ponyville, at the deer still working on removing the vines.

"Especially since we ended up breaking it in the end anyway," he muttered under his breath.

"Very good," Celestia said, a genuine smile beginning to creep back. "And one last thing?"

"...I... apologise for forgetting what else I need to apologise for."

Celestia's smile became strained, but did not recede.

"The plants?" she prompted.

"No." Aspen held up a hoof in protest. "That I shall not apologise for. I admit wrong in not coming to see you personally, but even if you had come to resolve the issue, the forest would still be missing large swaths of land, and the expansion would have still been necessary. It is good that we were able to restore the fertility in the old land, but I had no way of knowing that such a thing was even possible until we made that chance discovery. I acted perfectly reasonably given the information available to me."

Celestia frowned. "No, you didn't. You expanded the borders of the forest without my permission, and you specifically targeted Equestrian settlements while doing so, for no other reason than to provoke me to act. And don't you dare claim that the expansion was indiscriminate, because Canterlot is nowhere near the Everfree's borders. The plants could only reach that far up the mountain because you made them."

"Ponies helped carry out Well-To-Do's schemes, so ponies were made to pay for them. It was not malice. It was about what was fair."

"That is not fair," Celestia said, pointedly. "That is cruel, and assigns responsibility to the whole for the actions of a few. You cannot treat ponies like we're a hive mind. I should hope that you have a concept of individual responsibility."

"So you blame rogue elements for the slight your species has committed? I am not surprised. Those who carry the stink of chaos on them always do, and I would point to this incident as one of many reasons why you should abandon harmony. There is much less room for disobedience in order. But very well. I am sorry for instructing the forest to encroach upon your towns and cities."

Celestia moved to Aspen's side once more, so that the two of them could continue watching over Ponyville. Her frown eased, but her smile did not return.

"It really was to your detriment, you know," she commented. "If you hadn't set all that plantlife on Canterlot, I might've been able to come deal with this myself, instead of sending Twilight. My sister and I were caught in your vines for quite some time."

King Aspen looked aside at her.

"Then I apologise for that too."

"Also, if you hadn't expanded the forest into Ponyville, you would've had no reason to fear Twilight and her friends turning against you. They would've thrown their support behind you without question."

Aspen sighed.

"Are we quite done, Celestia?" he asked.

"For now."

Celestia began to walk away towards Ponyville, but stopped herself. She turned and faced Aspen one last time.

"I feel it only fair to warn you. While I forgive your transgressions this day, I will be taking extra precautions in case you try this again. A few protective spells for the girls might be in order. So if you presume to tamper with their minds again, do not expect them to be quite so warm towards you next time."

Aspen's eyes widened slightly, but he quickly calmed himself.

"Fair enough."

"Oh, and one other thing."

"Yes?"

Celestia's eyes narrowed.

"I will also be taking your own advice about how to respond to threats from now on, since you have such disdain for my previous methods. I have shown you mercy many times before, but this will be the last time. If ever you do cause such... chaos in my kingdom again, then as a threat to the peace, I will depose you, and I will send Discord himself to do it. I imagine he will relish the opportunity."

King Aspen blinked.

"Now, I have other matters I must attend to, and I'm sure you do, too. So I'll let you go now. It was nice talking to you again, my old friend."

Celestia spread her wings and took to the air, rising up over the forest. The world briefly darkened as her form eclipsed the midday sun, but soon she retreated into the distance, flying off towards Canterlot. King Aspen stared as she flew away, and he began to smile again.

"Very well," he said, quietly. "I hope you'll be ready when I am."

Author's Note:

This story is a part of the Borderworld.

Okay, so, technically I guess this is a fixfic, which I don't normally like, but hear me out on this.

Revenge of Everfree, in my opinion, was not a very good story. I could go in-depth with my critique of it, but I think the biggest problem with it was that King Aspen was wasted as a character. His characterisation and actions throughout the early story were all villainous, especially because he was directly responsible for all the ponies' problems. In addition, as a soverign leader, Twilight had no authority over him, even as a princess of Equestria, and being a powerful magic-user in his own right, he could also have challenged her physically. In short, he would've made a perfect antagonist for that arc.

However, instead, the comic bizarrely chose to cast him and the deer as underdog good guys who we're meant to be sympathetic to, and our actual antagonist was Well-To-Do, a goofy minotaur property developer, whose only claim to villainy was that he didn't care about the environment or respect royal authority. And like the previous arc with the cattle rustlers, the whole story unwinds around him, because he should've been trivially easy to defeat. Aspen, in contrast, could've been a legitimate threat, if only the story had taken advantage of him. And in all the excitement, the ponies seemed to forget that the only reason they were in the forest in the first place was because he attacked them with malevolent plantlife.

I like Aspen as a character. I only dislike the role he was handed. This story's purpose isn't to give him a dressing-down or to smear him. Rather, my intent was to use his already existing villainous characterisation to recontextualise events and fit him into an antagonistic role, where I believe he will be much more at home and much more narratively effective. This is Aspen as I ideally envision him, and I intend to use this interpretation of him again in future stories, as I've already started doing in To Keep the Fire Burning.

Comments ( 75 )

Incidentally, I just want to state for the record that Aspen in this fic was right, and that Discord totally was behind everything.

I never read any of the comics, but I did hear this arc was pretty bad. Anyway, good story!

Knowing this fandom even if Aspen was cast as the villain the fandom would have still found him sympathetic and find ways to blame everything on Celestia.

That being said, I enjoyed this and I will admit Celestia in this is pretty close to how I picture her; calm and kind but mess with her little ponies then all bets are off.

As fixfics go, I embrace this one! :yay:

You raise some good points about Aspen's character. I wish I had thought of them; then again, I wasn't really impressed with the comic's version of deer who represent the MLP universe's version of elves, but I won't get into that.

I particularly liked how you addressed the issue of how foreign dignitaries might feel about Celestia's decision to free Discord. This is a subject that I haven't seen addressed nearly enough in the fandom and only occurred to me recently. I have my own ideas for how she manages to prevent this from becoming a catalyst for a world war that I am sorely tempted to share right now, but I think I will save it for future stories.

7077981

How other nations feel about Celestia's bottomless well of forgiveness would definitely be a topic worth examining. I'm not sure I could do it myself, however, beyond what I already did here with Aspen. The world I write in is not one which lends itself well to such stories.

I hated that comic because Aspen invokes 'tic for tac' when... Mare Do Well's scheme wasn't explicitly to leave animals or deer without a home... they were simply in the way. Just like the ponies were just 'in the way' of Aspen's aggressive replanting.

You know, Aspin is fortunate Celestia rules Equestria and not G1 Majesty, she wouldn't have been so merciful.

If you don't understand how a character can be an antagonist without being a villain, you have a lot to learn about, well, life, really.

I mean, not that that comic arc was great literature either.

7078137

I recognise that they are separate concepts, but the comic treated Aspen as neither of them, and I think he works better if he is both.

Wait, if Yggdrasil/Crystal Tree/Deus Ex Machina is in his territory, then wouldn't he be allowed to destroy it as his property?

7078165

Well, the Tree is right by the Castle of the Two Sisters. I'm guessing that Aspen wouldn't have ever let that castle be constructed back in the day if he were around at the time, so my assumption is that Celestia had prior claim on the land that the Tree occupies, and now Aspen is forced to respect that, regardless of whether the land is inhabited.

Nicely done on all counts, explaining many of the arc's issues and offering some tantalizing future possibilities. Aspen truly comes off as frightening, not just because of his hidebound nature but because of his total inability to comprehend that which is not him. Treating "the forces of Chaos" as an organized system single-mindedly devoted to dismantling Order completely misses the point of what Chaos is.

Definitely looking forward to seeing what comes of this.

7078215

Aspen is a firm believer in Sparkle's razor - "Never attribute to coincidence that which can be adequately explained by Discord."

7078202

I love specially the way Celestia points every aspect of the King's hipocrisy, and the possibility of sending Discord himself to enact the punishment. :trollestia:

If I were in Discord's methaphorical shoes, I may as well grant Aspen his wish and remove every last trace of Chaos of his kingdom. If you know physics, you know too, exactly what that would mean.

7078202 Well, the claim is just that though: Prior, as in, she doesn't have it anymore. If she had, the whole exchange between them would have been entirely pointless, because if it were just another part of Equestria (like the Crystal Empire), he wouldn't have been an equal, but a clear subordinate. At least if I uderstood the story correctly.

(I don't really get the Cosmic Councel thing, but it's likely Celestia is the strongest there too, given that she's too obnoxious to not have been killed otherwise. >.>)

7078402

Aspen is no subordinate. In this story, he refers to his kingdom as an enclave, meaning that Thicket is a sovereign power that he rules, but that Equestria still owns everything outside of and around it. He's essentially surrounded. Think Vatican City, if the Vatican still had a really uneasy relationship with Italy. However this situation might have come to be, that is the case now, and it's a large part of why Aspen can't just do whatever the hell he wants.

As for the Cosmic Council, it's kind of not really important to what these two are doing here, but it's actually a thing from canon. Specifically, Under the Sparkling Sea. We don't know what exactly it is, but I interpret it here as a council of beings like Celestia and Aspen - immortal monarchs who hold a significant place in the world. In my interpretation, everyone holds equal power on the Cosmic Council, although Celestia technically owns the realm where they meet, in the same way that she technically owns Tartarus.

7078477 Oh. Ok, I misunderstood the situation: I thought that he didn't have the right opposed to Celestia playing a round of "Obey or Die". From that aspect, it does make a lot more of sense (and explains why Aspen would prefer Equestrians to be lawful instead of harmonious).

Makes one wonder if Discord has a seat in that council too... He is for all we know immortal and he did rule Equestria...

7078554

I imagine that he doesn't right now, but he'd certainly be eligible for a position in future.

"That is not fair," Celestia said, pointedly. "That is cruel, and assigns responsibility to the whole for the actions of a few. You cannot treat ponies like we're a hive mind. I should hope that you have a concept of individual responsibility."

"So you blame rogue elements for the slight your species has committed? I am not surprised. Those that carry the stink of chaos on them always do, and I would point to this incident as one of many reasons why you should abandon harmony. There is much less room for disobedience in order. But very well. I am sorry for instructing the forest to encroach upon your towns and cities."

And then a few days later Discord suddenly is allowed to cause chaos in his lands, Aspen caused problems for the ponies and blames all ponies for it. So ponies send Discord to deal with his Deer for his own actions. Fair is Fair is it not?

Man that series was one of the few I absolutely loathed, something which is becoming rather common with the comics. I am just quite glad they take place in another continuity of their own.

Good story, interesting you chose the king of the deer for the cosmic council so that means King Leo also exist in this verse.

I prefer Celestia and Aspen remain friends and NOT enemies, thank you.

I must say, I did like this story. It was nice to see King Aspen get called out on what he did. Also

"you do remember that your mind magic doesn't work on me, don't you?"

"It is a passive effect, not directed towards you. It was to keep those mares complacent so that they would assist in removing the minotaur interloper."

If this happen in the Comics, that would explain the Mane Six's OOC behavior. And while I'm not fan of making a 'Jerk into a villain' Trope, King Aspen could have been a better villain if the comic arc was put into the hands of a better writer.

PS, you just got yourself a new follower.

7102451

Glad to have you onboard.

7078215

For instance, assuming that Pinkie Pie does Discord's bidding, and totally missing her strong sense of honor. Aspen's problem is that he assumes that everyone is either exactly like him, emotionally weak, or evil. Neither Celestia nor Pinkie Pie are weak nor evil, though Pinkie's a bit immature (to be precise, emotionally neotenous). Celestia in particular is not at all weak when it comes to defending her ponies, she's merciful, which is another matter entirely. Given her power and intelligence, it's a bad idea to push her past her point of mercy.

And then everything made sense in the world.

Now, explain The Good, The Bad and the Ponies.

7961644

I'm just going with FOME's "magical gas leak" idea for that one; nothing else can explain the kind of stupidity witnessed in that arc.

7961715 Fair enough. Even genius has its limits.

Hmmm, let's see... access to mind control magic (blue), has domain over nature and has plant-controlling magic (green), and a dedication to order two such an overwhelming degree that it leads to complete inflexibility (white). And he completely despise is chaos (blue, white). So let's see... wow, a Bant villain, that's pretty novel.

Also, wow, Aspen. Telling Celestia she should've murdered her sister. You're lucky she didn't kick your ass right there.

7967744

Alas, your MTG references are lost on me, although I'm sure 7078215 would appreciate your observations.

Glad you liked it.

7967769

You're welcome. :)

Good job on calling Aspen out on his actions. As for his threat to Luna, someone is begging for his bloodline to end.

Honestly, the comic has a crapton of problems in terms of writing...

I am someone who had problems with the deer arc also absolutely adored the deer from the comics. As such I absolutely LOVE the amount of characterization you give Aspen here. He would've been a much more interesting antagonist than Well-To-Do, IMO.

Love it; thank you for writing this! <3

8390296

He was already the most interesting thing in the comic even without being an antagonist. It's why it frustrates me how they wasted the potential of his character. Good to see you liked the fic, though.

8390827
Personally I was more a fan of Blackthorn in the end, but I can agree with you on Aspen. I'll be honest; this fic kinda enlightened on his character and made me look at him in a different light, and I really like it!

8391083

Hey, thanks. I'm happy it did that for you.

That comic is part of the reason I stopped reading the MLP comics. The chieftain of this little village in the Everfree attacks Canterlot, abducts the Princesses. All without even bothering to make sure that his letters were actuality being delivered. And he gets off scot-free!

Some of the comics are alright. But there are so many not-so-good ones, I gave up on them.

9356120

True that. Though, it took me a while longer to give up on the comics, myself. I stopped reading a little after the fiftieth issue, when they started doing a bunch of tie-ins to season seven. Much as I dislike Revenge of Everfree, some of the arcs that came after it were way worse.

Heh, I hadn’t thought about that arc in a while. It’s nice to see Celestia give a good smackdown (verbal or otherwise) for once. And also to have a new ficverse to binge.

9438224

Oh man, if you actually plan to go through the whole thing, you'll be in for a ride.

Ooh, threatened with Discord! I love it when Celestia gets dangerous.

You did something good with Aspen there. I am eager to see him back in your stories.

Celestia frowned. "No, you didn't. You expanded the borders of the forest without my permission and you specifically targeted Equestrian settlements while doing so, for no other reason than to provoke me to act. And don't you dare claim that the expansion was indiscriminate, because Canterlot is nowhere near the Everfree's borders. The plants could only reach that far up the mountain because you made them."

"Ponies helped carry out Well-To-Do's schemes, so ponies were made to pay for them. It was not malice. It was about what was fair."

"That is not fair," Celestia said, pointedly. "That is cruel, and assigns responsibility to the whole for the actions of a few. You cannot treat ponies like we're a hive mind. I should hope that you have a concept of individual responsibility."

Sorry to say that, but this is where your version of Celestia turns into a huge hypocrite.

Aspen: "Dear Celestia... let's reflect for a minute on how the Well-To-Do scheme came to be, and what role you played in this. Yes, that's right: I'm not blaming the ponies working for Well-To-Do, I very specifically blame you and your administration. Well-To-Do employed ponies, but more importantly, his company is Equestria-based and operates by Equestrian laws. As I see it, there are two possibilities here. Either your administration had literally no clue what Well-To-Do was doing on the border between a neighboring country and your own territory and that it would provoke a diplomatic incident, then someone in your administration is utterly incompetent and needs to be replaced. Or you did know about it and decided to turn a blind eye, then that was in and of itself a hostile act towards us. Either way, we do have the right to defend ourselves against hostile incursion. And it's not like this is an isolated incident either. Do you really think I do not know about your people's attempted land grab on Buffalo territory not too long ago? Did you know nothing about that either? Maybe you really are incompetent. Or maybe it's Manifest Harmony - what a pathetic euphemism for brutal imperialism. Who knows?

As for your demand to me to not hold ponies responsible collectively, you are the head of Equestria's government and thus represent them. If you risk a war against us, whether by neglect or by malice, you represent them in that as well. Your demand is also hypocritical as hell. You seem to forget that I am not only capable of mind manipulation, but also of mind reading. Do you really think your thought of using Discord as a threat against my people would slip by me? Do you really think that if you let Discord loose in Everfree, I would be the only one to suffer? Do you think I am so prideful that I would only take it as a personal threat and not a threat against my people? With this threat, you admit that you hold collectives responsible for the actions of individuals just as much as I do."


(Disclaimer: No, I don't actually subscribe to the Tyrant Celestia interpretation. Celestia and her foreign policies were just handled really badly in the comic, without regard for the implications. The entire comic was a bad rehash of the Buffalo episode when it comes down to it, and with a less optimistic outcome - but this fact actually has a lot of really unfortunate implications. The Buffalo episode was a single diplomatic incident as far as the show is concerned, and in isolation, it's absolutely believable that it originated in a misunderstanding - but in the context of the Everfree comic, you have two very similar incidents, and that begins to paint a picture of Equestrian foreign policies - a very unfortunate picture. It's a good thing the comics aren't treated as canon for the show.)

Oh yeah, one more thing:

Celestia shook her head and sighed.

"You have respect for the letter of the law, but not its spirit. Ironic, considering the entity you worship."

I have no idea what you mean by that, but it sounds like something I would like to see expanded upon. :twilightsmile:

Despite my criticism in my first comment, I did like your story, by the way - and I did give it a fave and an upvote. This was a good read and one of the most interesting takes on the Everfree deer I've seen in fanfiction so far.

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Given Bant's rigid caste system, I'm actually surprised WotC hasn't introduced Bant villains yet.

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Yeah, I feel similar about the comic. I think it was really badly executed, but I still like the deer quite a bit. In fact, I founded the Everfree Deer group and the Blackthorn fan group. In fact, I think Blackthorn was the most well-done deer character in that arc.

Comment posted by Aristagtle deleted Mar 9th, 2019

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Sorry to say that, but this is where your version of Celestia turns into a huge hypocrite.

An interesting perspective. Though it makes a few incorrect assumptions (such as that Aspen would be aware of the buffalo), it's an argument that I could easily see him raising in slightly different circumstances (and if I'd characterised him slightly differently). There may indeed be a point to make that as the ruler of all Equestria, Celestia is in some way responsible for what Well-To-Do's company were doing, and given the deer's devotion to order, that's certainly something they'd believe in. Celestia, of course, does not take that perspective. Well-To-Do's actions were already illegal, and she would've done something about him if she'd been made aware of his actions, but he and his company were actively hindering any effort to make her aware, not just intercepting communications from the deer, but also operating under the radar in general. He was a rogue element. He may be Equestria's responsibility to deal with, but they wouldn't see themselves as responsible for his decisions to attack the deer.

Aspen does see them as responsible, but his response is actually weird in several ways, owing to his ideology/religion. Firstly, though he does have a right to defend himself and his people, in his mind, he did not actually exercise that right until Blackthorn's attack. Well-To-Do's company was left unharmed by the deer until then, because he believed it would be a violation of Celestia's laws for him to attack them. Yet despite this, he still sent the plants after both Canterlot and Ponyville. This is the second strange thing. Although the Equestrians understandably interpreted this as an attack, in Aspen's mind, this was not a military response to a hostile action by Equestria. This was simply collecting compensation, and in his eyes, it was both legally and morally justifiable, because he does hold ponies collectively responsible as a species for Well-To-Do's actions. If he only held Celestia's administration responsible, his "attack" would've been limited to Canterlot. His decision to go after Ponyville as well only really makes sense in the context of the deer's authoritarian beliefs, in which there is no distinction between the individual and the state. To them, the actions of individuals are always the responsibility of the state, and because all individuals are representatives of the state, any individual can also be held responsible for the state's actions.

This is also the reason for what you term as Celestia's hypocrisy. To the deer, if Celestia interpreted Aspen's actions as hostile, then sending Discord to terrorise their entire civilization would be an appropriate response, and that is the fear that Celestia preys on here. Of course, tellingly, she never actually said that. That's just the assumption that Aspen would make, and which you made as well, it seems. Her actual threat was that she would send Discord to depose Aspen, and if she ever really did send Discord to Thicket, it would be for just that. I know Discord isn't known for his mercy or restraint, but if Celestia was able to keep him from terrorising Equestrian citizens, then she could get him to hold back with the deer as well. In fact, given how powerful Aspen is, Discord is probably the only one who could depose him without collateral damage to Thicket.

I have no idea what you mean by that, but it sounds like something I would like to see expanded upon. :twilightsmile:

The entity referred to here is Order, one of the three Eternals (the other two being Discord and the Tree of Harmony). I wrote quite extensively about him in this essay, if you want to learn more.

Despite my criticism in my first comment, I did like your story, by the way - and I did give it a fave and an upvote. This was a good read and one of the most interesting takes on the Everfree deer I've seen in fanfiction so far.

Thank you. I'm glad you enjoyed it. And thank you for your comments as well. I found them very engaging.

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Her actual threat was that she would send Discord to depose Aspen, and if she ever really did send Discord to Thicket, it would be for just that.

In that case, your Celestia isn't hypocritical, she's just mind-bogglingly thoughtless and irresponsible. Even after his reformation, Discord still has a habit of interpreting rules and orders in a very loose way so as to ensure his own fun, and he was not above risking the well-being of ponies for his own amusement even after his reformation by not telling them about the vines. Not to mention his powers aren't exactly known for being precision strikes either. There is no way he wouldn't find a way have his fun with such an order. Celestia simply has no reason to believe that Discord wouldn't make the deer suffer. Not to mention that the loss of their leader in and of itself has potential to cause them harm - in particular because there are certain "rogue elements" in Equestria that have reason to take advantage of such a situation. Not to mention that given Everfree's fear of chaos, Discord of all people disposing of Aspen would cause both grief and insult to Everfree's population, and possibly traumatizing terror to the point of shattering their cultural backbone (the Heart of the Forest is just as much a cultural cornerstone of Everfree as Celestia as ruler over the sun is one of Equestria, and the deer would experience sheer and utter helplessness against the one thing they fear the most). Not to mention that I haven't even addressed the issue of creating a power vacuum yet (and don't tell me Discord would somehow install a new ruler on Celestia's behalf). Not to mention the psychological effect it has on a nation if its leaders are installed and deposed at the whims of the leader of another nation, which essentially destroys their national souvereignity and turns them into a puppet state. There is no way around this: Using Discord as an assassin would cement your Celestia as either an evil tyrant or as careless and irresponsible to the point of political incompetence (or both). Keep in mind that I had my Aspen say that Celestia is one of these two.

Of course, I can hardly accuse your Celestia of blaming the people of Everfree for Aspen's actions if they're so far below her notice to begin with that she doesn't even consider how her actions could affect them. So she wouldn't be a hypocrite. It would still make her either a sociopath or an irresponsible child though - and also kind of a racist. Now of course, I actually do believe that Aspen is also incompetent (and I actually compared him to Ulfric Stormcloak once, who I believe is the worst possible choice for Skyrim), and as I see it, the only even remotely competent leader we see among the deer is Blackthorn. But that doesn't mean that Celestia didn't fail with Well-To-Do, and her failure is one crucial part of what caused this situation to begin with.

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