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what happened to Monday and Tuesday
I don't see why this chapter would make people especially angry. The huge stream of consciousness section about justifying her feelings makes it clear she's having a sort of mental breakdown, or at least trying to rationalize something insane. Pointing out the information to be gained by watching it is smart but very much not something Twilight would find acceptable in her right state of mind. Between that and Mayor Mare's quite helpful dictation of her conversion and her mention that halfway through she's convinced this is a good idea is pretty much confirmation of mind control, and makes me suspect Twilight is being influenced to a lesser degree by a similar effect.
Twilight seems convinced by her inability to explain why Mayor Mare would think this is a good idea, but I'm not sure I understand why this makes her conclude that it can't be mind control of some sort.
8226562
I have no impulse control.
8226640
I'd assume Twi's participation and the depths she sinks to here, even if momentarily, would be enough to flip a few. The last chapter got one, I think. We'll see.
8226677
Oh, I kind of just lumped that all into the first half in my mind, this was just her following through on the already stated insanity, and attempting to rationalize/analyze it, so I wasn't surprised or anything.
8226640
Well, it's clear now that the breakstone got her. Zecora didn't pull her away fast enough, which means it's still cooking her brain just at an incredibly slow pace. But she (and I assume spike) definitely hit the point of no return based on the description of the process here. If that addresses the characterization issues, ymmv.
8226732
Very interesting theory!
I don't think the text suggests she was staring for more than a moment, but who knows? Zecora probably acted quickly. (But the fact she wasn't stunned by the magically magnified Breakstone image was indeed foreshadowing.)
EDIT: I mean Zecora not being stunned was foreshadowing that Zecora might be following the Order, which turned out to be true. I don't mean that this theory has been foreshadowed by events in the past.
8226742
Wait, unless I'm remembering wrong Twilight has seen it twice right? Once at home and once at Zecora's. Combined that might push her past the point of no return and slowly cook her right?
Maybe not, but you've sure jumped off the slope and seem to be laughing the whole way down.
8226760
Quite possibly. The vamponies' narrative suggests that shouldn't be the case, but they haven't exactly been reliable either.
10K word chapter? Oh Trick, you spoil me!
Well, there is really only one thing to do with Equestria at this point.
i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/128/623/kill-it-with-fire-demotivational-poster-1235695993.jpg
I have no clue why, but I have this image of Twilight setting off a magic nuke with "Two minutes to Midnight" playing through a huge speaker system
I feel it deep within, it's just beneath the skin
I must confess that I feel like a monster
I hate what I've become, the nightmare's just begun
I must confess that I feel like a monster
Relative to wanting her to suffer? I suppose.
: Not QUITE as dangerous as letting Rainbow Dash continue to time her rescues down to the last second to sign the maximum number of autographs of course, but still WE were totally in the wrong. Somehow.
I refer you to my previous
Allow me to put on my skepticals.
s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/12/d7/7e/12d77ef90a818ee87338f7d4483843de.jpg
8226510
I would not call that a victory. Or even a success. I'd call it barely escaping by the skin of her teeth. Acting defensively, as you yourself said. And again, that IS my major problem with how Twilight is portrayed in this story: She is always on the defense, and any time she so much as tries to go on offense, she fails.
The only "victory" of hers I can think of is her creating the spell that clears the partial vampire infection from a pony, ridding herself of the infection. Then I also realized that was about when the vampires stopped trying to force her to their side and started trying to get her on their side willingly. They simply adjusted tactics and Twilight once again is forced to go on the defensive.
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8226916
You need to stop doing this. By 'this' I mean this whole giving away story elements in the comments. You have basically confirmed a theory and spoiled a future plot point. This isn't foreshadowing, this is giving away a major plot point. You've done this a lot throughout the story in the comments, and it's yet another reason I know just how this story is going to end. You're basically posting unmarked spoilers in your own comments.
On to the good news: This chapter has convinced me to keep reading this story. For two reasons: one, the already spoiled fact that Twilight was partially mind-raped that explains some(and only SOME) of her recent behavior. And two: because of Luna basically belting out that Twilight is destined to escape again. Which while nice to know that Twilight is going to escape...that kinda came out of nowhere. There has to have been a better way to do that, but I can't think of one right now. I'd suggest going over that scene again. Also, Luna really needs to learn what a self-fulfilling prophecy is. She basically said right to Twilight's face that she's gonna escape. That very act is probably what will keep Twilight fighting just a little longer.
I have more to say, but it's two in the morning and I just got off an eight hour shift at work. I'm too tired to go more in depth with what I want to say. So I'll make it short:
I DO like this story. I really do. There's just a few glaring problems that continue to bug me that I wish you would fix.
8226640 To be fair, Twilight seems to be suffering something akin to Stockholme Syndrome, plus a few others that an armchair psychiatrist like myself shouldn't be even mentioning, but a few things are worth mentioning.
Pinkie was a Vampony all along. That means Shining, Cadence, Rarity and Fluttershy all knew in advance that Twilight would be vulnerable from the get go and they ARE indeed magnificent chess bastards who planned for every eventuality they could think of.
Pinkie, as a Vampony, convinced Twilight to commit pedophilia with Spike, and probably infected both Twilight and Spike with vampirism, at least temporarily, during the evening and may have even exposed them to Mudblood. This was likely done intentionally to further corrupt Twilight's ability to fight the Order of Spring and eventually turn her into one of their possessions.
Zecora has probably infected Twilight a few times with the Mudblood as well, given how easy it might have been for her to secrete a few drops into the potions she was making and that Twilight chugged.
We have no way of knowing at this point if Zecora actually saved Twilight and Spike from that god-awful stone mac'guffinite or not, or she just said she did. Can Twilight know if she's had her brain damaged by the damn thing without her magic and all the trauma she's endured, all the betrayals and sophistric arguments and sermons from the Order of Spring?
Luna has usurped control of Twilight's body at least once. God only knows what the bitch has done to Twilight's mind. And if there is anything that pisses me off more about this story than the Order of Springs' antics and machinations, it is that the one pony who should be more against and aware of the costs of an external force dominating you to it's cause, it should be Princess Luna POSSESSEDBYTHEFUCKINGNIGHTMAREFOROVERATHOUSANDMOTHERFUCKINGYEARS (Spoilered for profanities).
I will rage so hard if Luna willingly gave in to this nightmare because 'she just wanted to be loved'. I swear to god, I will be furious beyond words if she has exposed so many innocents to such dark and profane harm just because she came to believe physical lust was a decent substitute for actual love. We also have no idea if Luna KNEW Twilight would do 'that' to her past self in the Dreamscape, but if she did, then Luna actively created a situation where it would push Past-Celestia into a war against the Changelings as much to fuck Twilight over as to prevent a temporal paradox.
We have no idea if the 'aphrodisiacs' Twilight has been exposed to is Mudblood or something potentially even worse. For all we know, she's already 'tasted the wolf' at least three times and the Order of Spring is shitting itself that any 'cunt', as they delightfully call mares and any being that isn't a leader-caste as the glossary seems to describe (I am also just coming home from a 10-hour day at work so my muscles are screaming and my brain just wants to sleep ...), can resist their auto-win mac'guffinite trick. No wonder Shining and those wretched Vamponies are humiliating themselves trying to get Twilight to corrupt of her own accord, they're probably terrified that Twilight might turn, but be so powerful she could end up being their Master ... or just go insane from all the abuse, trauma and self-loathing and go on a roaring rampage of revenge to wipe out all Vamponies, including Cadence and Luna and then herself, leaving Celestia the sole untainted Alicorn and the broken leader of a devastated species.
Or maybe that's their trump-card. Even if they lose, Celestia, the 'evil one' in their warped, malignant take on things will suffer the pain of losing her sister, niece and beloved student in one fel swoop and the society that would have stood against their raping, magical mind-fucking ways be reduced to a panicked mob, accusing anyone with a strong sexual drive or even just in the wrong place at the wrong time of being one of the vampony menace.
We still have no idea what it was that Celestia hid away that helped cause Luna's descent into being possessed and becoming Nightmare Moon, or if it might have something to do with the original Vamponies.
I'm actually betting that the 'Tragedy' tag hasn't been met yet because I'll bet Twilight figures out a way to suck the Vampony curse out of the victims and the Order of Spring, but in doing so will condemn herself to irrevocably becoming one, meaning that Celestia will either have to destroy Twilight (if she can't overcome the euphoria and complete lack of inhibitions that Vamponies seem to suffer) or Twilight will let rip at everyone as she transforms, then teleports herself to Tartarus and locks herself away for all time, leaving the Order of Spring as mortal, mundane Ponies, Ponies who have just made an enemy of Princess Celestia who has just seen all her long-laid plans turn to madness and is probably looking for a suitably worthy punching bag for her outrage.
...
I can't help it. After all their 'assent is needed, not consent' bullshit, raping foals, giving off sophistric arguments without any hard data and ... basically being one of the most sick, vile, irredeemably evil entities I've read about in fiction.
Seriously, Trick Question, if you re-wrote this to be something other than Ponies, you'd have a best-seller of a monstrous 'dark fantasy' novel for adults here that'd have people eating their hearts out to see the antagonists hanging from the tallest tree in the land.
8226640
much like Fall of Equestria this is a story that is obviously mind control, but claims it isn't and just like Fall of Equestria it would be much better if it would just admit it was mind control
Well Twilight... You made your choice. And I am so disappointed in you. You are a princess, one of the rulers of the land. You are supposed to lead by example, and you give in to your desires. Sacrificing your friend. The thing that I think is wrong is not that you feel the way you do, it is that you act on it. But maybe it was wrong of me to put so much hope in you.
But I can understand why you did it. It is easy for me to argue that you should fight out of principle. I am not the one that has to endure the feelings you feel. And technically you did not break your vow. You are inexperienced, you did not have time to prepare for this kind of mental challenges. People do not join ideologies or religions because of "it's greatness" or "It makes sense". They join because of what it offers them. And The Order... Offers allot of things. And of course I am asexual so it is easy for me to say "stop fucking and work". So your choice was not that surprising. And my greatest challenge: The Order can rationalize pretty well. I will be honest. If we are going to discuss what makes people happy... The Order properly could win even in the biology department. Twilight so far has constantly denied that there could be any logic behind the order, "they are mental" for short. But I will say this! If you make sex the new normal then it's effect on ones happiness will diminish over time.
So my main arguments must be that happiness is not the most important thing when building a society. But I can not honestly say that the society that Celestia made is a good one. One other thing is the breaking and turning. This is not ok for me. Why? If you have to physically change a persons mind to make them "understand" you, then it is effectively brain washing. And turning someone into something else just shows that the idea was not for that species. Brain washing is bad because I value choice. You can argue if we have free will or not but I am a Compatibilist so I think we need to act like we have free will. And changing your species just to follow a idea is not a good enough reason for me. Think of the gene pool! we might need those!
Any way. Good work Trick. I think the point of this story is to make us ask ours selfs the uncomfortable questions. But I wonder where you will take it?
I'm still waiting for Twilight to make a few important realizations. First, where are Fluttershy and Applejack? If they are so intent on convincing her to join their side you'd think that they would have been paraded out by now means something. Either the change in them is drastic enough that it would shatter many of Twilight's beliefs that they are slowly pushing on her because they are drastically different, or they aren't fully on their side either. The second thing is that whatever it is that is parading around as Shining Armor it certainly isn't her brother. She can't get a read on him and any time he acts like she remembers it's only a mask as he immediately does a complete 180 when something frustrates him. Considering the breakstone isn't used on most stallions it says something. Also regarding that and thirdly, when will Twilight ask where the stone came from? Fluttershy obviously didn't have it when the whole fiasco started, so it had to have been found somewhere which means there is someone else behind it all, someone that managed to get rid of Discord who would most likely have had spells watching over Fluttershy if something happened to her and would have come running by now.
8227334
Moreover, look at the interaction between Shining and that batpony, Shadowbane. That does not suggest an equal relationship between them. So, it might as well still be a batpony conspiracy to grab power, at least on some level.
8226760
8227180
8227258
I don't think the stone actually worked on her (yet). The process is described as being pleasurable, even at the beginning when it also hurts. No, I think a confused and emotionally as well as physically exhausted Twilight Sparkle came upon a situation where she could vicariously indulge in her deep-seated, masochistic submission fetish, seemingly without moral compunction as whether she agreed to assist or not it was still going to happen, so she might as well just make it easier for the victim and satisfy her curiosity at the same time. Or so she told herself.
Hmm. What does Cadance mean here? Why is the threshold too high? What does she mean about having control and the "fixed-up does not?
8227389
I'd guess it's the difference between having law enforcement and being under martial law. Being too inhibited to express your true feelings or follow what you want, instead keeping yourself too under control to try new things and expand your horizons. Their inhibitions are lessened but apparently not gone completely.
8227180
Let's be honest, even in the show ponies deal with time travel badly. Like, really really badly.
Also, while I can see the characterization problems it's not clear to me the solution. Twi has pulled off clever tricks like a month ago, which seems right. Maybe she's a little light on grandiose speeches. definitely short on scientific inquiry. but by now she's supposed to be confused, conflicted, and helpless. idk.
8227258
I thought FoE was explicitly mind control via the crystal cock?
8227334
Fluttershy is in the Crystal Empire as Celestia's jailer.
8227389
It's too high because the argument is based on IRL norms that may or may not apply to cartoon ponies. And let's be clear: IRL norms are historically and concurrently too Puritan in at least some areas. We've already rejected some of this: miscegenation, birth control, and homosexuality are now permissible. They should be permitted by all rational argument. Still even on these there is backlash, up to and including doctors being bombed. There are other things that probably should be permitted or at least looked at and are not accepted. Polyamory, for example, is hard to justify suppressing. The argument against bestiality is weak, and maybe some research would be appropriate. Age of consent is currently an outright superstition. We have kids as young as 10 serving 25 to life on the sex offender registry for exposure and consensual touching. The most recent study for AOC was in the 12th century, it really needs a look at in the scientific sense.
That being said, we don't know where things lie in Equestria. Before the re-write it was fairly clear that sexual norms were an existential threat. The population was unable to sustain itself, and was slowly going extinct. In the face of extinction, even a coup is reasonable. Now it's not clear at all. All we know is that the Order says it's bad, and Twilight said that the law was a lot different than she thought it was.
8227180
I did not confirm the theory. I'm being careful not to confirm or deny anything. I merely said it was interesting, because it was. If anything, my saying that makes it less likely to be true in the story.
8227494
Of the male ponies, yes. Female ponies are... inconsistent. There are some hints at mind-control making them compliant or less resistant, other writers claim they're unaffected, some say it's case by case. Personally, I think almost everypony is affected to some extent, and the effect is slowly spreading outwards. Makes the most sense.
8227242
I agree with Giant Neckbeard about the potential for violence here. Sexuality isn't the only thing suppressed by inhibitions and Twi should be ready to rip them to shreds if she loses hers
8227518
makes sense to me. Then again, FoE just like the Gor it's based on is just stupid in so many ways.
8227514
Okay, I'm trying to find a way to say what I need to without being condescending or downright insulting. If I come across like that I'm sorry, but I can't think of a better way to put all this.
With that in mind, let me state the obvious: I am not you. The other readers of this story are not you. We all have our different theories, ideas, and ways of thinking in general and they're all a little(or a lot) different from each other. That said, I want you to take a step back and imagine what's going on in the story and comments from our perspective. Imagine for a moment that you are just some random reader that has become invested in this story.
Imagine that you think the Order of Spring is evil incarnate and must be stopped. Now imagine how frustrated you are that the primary protagonist is a fucking moron and fails at nearly everything she does. Now imagine that she is so weak that she is actually starting to sympathize with the pure evil, child raping, brainwashing literal fucking vampire monsters. As I hope you can understand, this upsets quite a lot of people. We don't tend to like it when the hero sympathizes with literal evil monsters.
Then, suddenly what appears to be a random bit of exposition gives us an explanation for why the hero might be acting in the stupid manner that she has been for the last several chapters. A couple of readers comment on this. Then, the author of the story replies to those comments with overly vague but leading statements. Take for example the two comments of yours that I quoted. In my mind the first one basically says "That's an interesting theory...but the evil vampire that betrayed Twilight probably acted quickly enough. Foreshadowing! *wink wink* *nudge nudge*" Again, imagine this from someone else's point of view. You might as well have just outright said that Twilight HAD been effected by the mind-rape stone.
Your second reply isn't any better. Again, this is how I interpreted your comment: "The evil vampires say that isn't how it works. But as we all know, what the evil vampires say can't be trusted." Remember: I am not you. I do not think like you do. I am going to interpret everything said in this story and in these comments through the filter of my own messed up brain. And that means there's a good chance what I think and what you intend will not match up.
Sadly, at this point, there is literally nothing you can say now that will convince me that Twilight hasn't been effected by the Breakstone. You could literally post a direct reply to this comment and outright state that that isn't the case, and I would just say you are backpedaling and trying to prevent spoilers. The only thing that will convince me is seeing it in the story itself. And this is the problem with you replying to reader's theories: you think you're being vague or coy, when really all you're doing is feeding our own interpretations.
My honest advice: stop replying to reader's theories. Don't say anything. Don't compliment them, don't insult them, don't say they're interesting, and for the love of all that is holy, stop trying to foreshadow future events in comments. It does more harm than good.
8228060
Go home 123ABC, you're drunk.
8227869
The foreshadowing was that Zecora was probably following the Order, which was revealed soon thereafter. Either the Breakstone has no effect on her, or she'd already been broken.
I was talking about foreshadowing that had already been revealed, not foreshadowing to come. I wouldn't mention that in comments.
8227869
Also, I'm not the downhoofer. I appreciate your comment, and I'll try to avoid making comments that sound like I'm revealing things. I honestly haven't intended to imply things either way.
(Also also, I don't change the future of the story based on comments by the readers. Things are already set. Or so the voices say.)
8228135
It's actually the bananas in pajamas.
8228085
things are set? You litterally have in your description that you are revising it right now
8228204
It's mostly been refining stuff that's already there. Fixing typos and adjusting sentence structure. Aside from the big one(pony kind heading to extinction which apparently was changed) no other major changes have happened.
8228204
Only the formatting, not the content.
8228204
8228223
And actually, in Fimfiction 4.0 it's pretty much fixed because they removed my tabbing!
I can still refine a few bits but I'm taking off the note now.
So, the sanity bandwagon has left Twilight in the dust. Fun!
Another update from my favorite powerfully provocative fic that I have ambivalent and self-abrasive emotions about!
As with every update before, "enjoy" might not be the right word, but hot damn am I in suspense with every new little sip of story you give us~
8228535
Personally, I think it's fabulous.
8228540
The southern belle of the ball really.
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8228540
8228562
Big Mac? Female? Heavy.
That's the best worst pun I can do at the moment.
8229774
Regardless you can thank the theory of narrative causality because characters need to act a certain way to get the story to work. Otherwise there wouldn't be much of a story.
8230223
lol
pbs.twimg.com/media/CSetyT7U8AANy0z.jpg
8230668
MSG tastes like glutamate, which is one of the seven most important flavors. Even if it is MSG, it isn't actually a carcinogen.
8230656
I can't figure how somepony will read 200,000 words of a story and skip part of it, but you're not the only reader to make that claim. Even the most disturbing scenes have important bits to them...
8231395
None of that is true. You don't know the first thing about me.
Accusing me of egregious perversion and illegal activity is absolutely unacceptable. It's also illegal (libel), and it violates several parts of this site's TOS.
The story isn't intended as an author tract for how to engage in horrifying illegal activity any more than a detective story is an author tract for how to murder people. It's intentionally disturbing, yes, but it's fantasy, not reality. Killing a cartoon pony with words is not committing murder, etc.
I'm deleting the accusation. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and not ban you, but please, don't do anything like that again.
8227397
8227494
Hmm, well I can debate you on some of those topics. And that is actually something I really want to do.
This story is tearing at me. I like to see myself as a reasonable person, if your argument is sound and mine isn't then I will change my opinion for the better one. But this story does something that frustrates me so much. Before, my arguments were that the order was mad. Now I can not say that, there is reason behind the Order and so I feel the need to argue for my stance. But I am left wanting, I have to wait for a new chapter for new arguments or counter arguments and I do not even know if I am taking this story to seriously! I do not know the point of the story! Is it social commentary? is it just a cool story written in a unorthodox way? What does Trick want to say? And yes, the fact that this is a story about ponies makes it harder to determen the message and the right and wrongs. Their biology and world is different from ours so I can not make any solid statements as I do not have all the information.
And then there are the three conflicts in this story, Twilights internal conflict, the mystery around the Order and the debate around what society should be. Twilights internal conflict is beyond me at this point. A example, I love my parents very much and so the thought that they could do what Twilights parents did to her... How do I say it. Sends a lighting bolt of repulsion through my brain and the image is gone the second it enters. In other words: Twilight is experiencing horrors to terrible for me to understand. So It is easy for me to be hard on her because I do not understand what she is experiencing. I can only try to be sympathetic. With varying results.
I want to know the right and wrong. There is no universal right and wrong but you must make one if you are to have a civilization. People must know what they can and can not do.
I just want to be able to debate with someone, discus the story, heck Trick might have wrote the part "the Order is making up the culture as it goes" as a message to "do not ask me to much of how to Order will work because I am not entirely sure myself". A "meta" discussion to iron out how the Orders culture could be would work for me!
Ugh. I am ranting. But as I have said before, this story has made me think, and I do not know if I am being foolish to take it so seriously.
8228085
Who are the voices?
8232010
I'm being silly.