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I know I've used this a lot, but I feel it's still appropriate
Me in the next half hour:
cdn3.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/AMCyuIcU9KoUT3eUn_cIr5S1EBw=/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/6439857/20130109.0.png
...how?
fc00.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2013/091/8/4/applebloom_beg_by_renaissancebrony-d601y39.png
"Yeah, you have to be broken completely for our points to have any merit! Our side has ALL the legit points!"
If you need to break someone in order for your organization to have any leg to stand on with them then maybe it's time to reconsider what you're doing. Just a bit.
Well it'd help if you tried.
Yes, sleep in the bed in the castle full of compromised ponies, great fucking idea! At least sleep UNDER the bed!
7353198
Earth Ponies have magic, and it's implied they're more closely related to the earth, so it makes sense they would be naturally heavier.
This was...a surprisingly revealing chapter. Leave it to the Crusaders to accidentally let out more than they intend.
7353263 They're the crusaders, incompetence is their bread and butter. And I don't really see it making that much of a difference with a size difference like that. It could easily be explained away as Apple Bloom being heavier than Spike, and she isn't used to that weight, but I balk more than a little at her being heavier than Twilight.
7353282
It's kind of sorta implied that while they're not fully vamponies, the Order has given them some sort of empowerment, so it could be related to that as well, and it would make sense for said empowerment to strengthen natural abilities.
7353305 The only thing I got that from was the
flavorwire.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/harry-potter-top-10-hermione-granger-moments-hermione-granger-358045.jpg
and even then, they said it was temporary and they said they aren't. Unless I missed a line.
"So you're not vamponies, but..."
"...but we've been vamponies a few times, yep,"
I get that she's not thinking clearly, but Twilight offers no resistance when there are tons of arguments to be made to the crusaders. They even start to feel bad halfway through, and she doesn't even try to convince them then. All she ever seems to do is trust everyone she meets, get betrayed, and escape at the last moment. It's kind of getting hard to expect any success to ever occur for her. Edit: Is it still a tragedy if everything seems to go wrong mostly because the "hero" was just dumb and we'll never know if a competent one might have saved the day? It was nice at the start when she had 0 information and running/regrouping was the smart play, but now it's just annoying that the allegedly smart pony is the worst at both gathering information and arguing with enemies willing to at least talk.
The crusaders said a bunch about the order, but other than internal details about their sex orgchart (I'm sure Twilight would love to improve it), I didn't see anything especially revealing on first read. They did emphasize the whole "fixed" crap they use to shun outsiders and ignore their rights to free will... Cult definitely seems to fit the bill, with mind control to speed things up.
On second read: They demand consent but I'm pretty sure that's not even possible at that point. At best she could assent, right? I think that distinction was even made by the sex cult earlier. Though I guess the CMC might fail to make the distinction.
And I must admit, Twilight does at least have a useful thought in this chapter: it IS ridiculous for them to have changed this much so quickly, even with their inhibitions reduced and some rape brainwashing. And their maturity regarding the curse words heavily implies that they've been brainwashed regarding only specific beliefs.
Twilight also doesn't trust Luna. But everything she said has seemed so completely wrong that she must surely be on Twilight's side somehow. Just kidding (mostly), but I've got this itch saying Twilight's message to the past must have done something...
Alright, the Vampoines are now pure evil. Kill them all Twi!
Am I the only person who wants twi to give in? I honestly feel that at this point if twi wins then everything will feel like it has built up to nothing.
7353827 I wanted Twi to snap the Crusaders necks then send a message there was no more negotiation, no more arguments or trying to convince she was going to kill them all for what they've done
7353461
On the other hand, Luna's dreamwalking ability would give her the perfect means to speed up the Crusaders' indoctrination. We've seen how well they respond to her in the dreamworld. We've also seen through Twilight's experiences how little your mental defences matter against a full-powered Luna.
And, let's nor forget, they've been subjected to the mind-probe stone. Perhaps the Order hasn't been admitting the full truth of what the thing actually does; i.e. perhaps it's programmed to do more than just take away inhibitions. They say it damages part of the brain; who says it can't replace what's lost with something else?
Incidentally, they're conditioning Twilight here, too. "Just let everything happen and it won't hurt as much, accept your place, you want to be a good cunt because being a good cunt feels nice..." Even the part about letting the pain inside without resisting has a masochistic ring to it.
7353282
Heh. The part about the Crusaders and failure has some truth to it. After all, they did reveal Caramel's a vampony; Rainbow Dash hasn't been caught yet; males aren't the only doms, apparently there's a rank called 'mistress'; and the Crusaders themselves are perfectly fine with being submissive b*tches.
7353414
Well, on the one hand, the Princess of Friendship having a hard time dealing with this emotionally-confusing mess makes perfect sense. It's near-impossible to brute-force the problem away since she has no idea how wide the corruption has spread or how to fix it, and her other approach of lecturing her opponents into submission doesn't work either. She doesn't even have her friends to fall back on.
On the other hand, she keeps slipping through the Order's net again and again. Even against impossible odds. The only thing I don't quite understand is why Zecora let her go. That still confuses me.
7354240
We don't know lecturing wouldn't work, though, because Twilight has been so incredibly bad at defending her position thus far. I don't think she's put up any real argument since the one with Shining Armor.
And yeah, Zecora letting her go was weird. Why even reveal herself in the first place, then? Maybe something happened while Twilight was drugged.
7354256
It's also possible there's different opinions on how to deal with Twilight in the Order's upper echelons. Perhaps Luna isn't so much fighting against the Order from the inside; perhaps she has a different idea how best to indoctrinate Twilight and accordingly gives her personal agents different instructions than Rarity's group.
7354323
The issue isn't conflicting actions by the different members, though, it's that she insisted things are a certain way, and everything points to her being completely wrong.
Also, remember the emphasis placed on The Order not being something you can be a member of. That pretty much precludes it being an organization of any sort. It's probably "order" in the sense of "the way of things." So maybe some sort of magical force similar to friendship. Or maybe some memetic plague, though that doesn't quite mesh with characters saying they support it. Or maybe they're just lying over and over again; Twilight has gathered so little information that she can't prove or disprove anything they say.
7353198
7353263
Earth ponies weigh a great deal more than unicorns do in the story, and this has come up about five times before this point. Apple Bloom may be half Twilight's size, but she's still more muscular and heavier. But the bigger problem is that she's denser, which puts Twilight's center of balance outside of her own body once she's latched on. It's like Twilight has a thick lead weight strapped to her back, and she doesn't have the leverage to stand.
All she'd be able to do is rock back and forth against the wall. She doesn't try that partly because she isn't trying hard, and partly because she feels embarrassed and vulnerable with somepony's hoof on her horn.
There are actually indications in the show that earth ponies weigh significantly more than they should, even as early as the fourth episode.
I'd consider the weight and strength to be passive earth pony magic.
7354403 I call hax, they're gonna have to nerf that in the next update. :(
I guess it's just frustrating to read a story like this where *nobody* is a critical thinker.
Yay! new updates. It confirms much speculation, but sadly shatters dreams of ScootaDash foaldom. Which of course, makes me wonder which foals are going to end up domme.
7353198
Well, even before all this Twilight was not the most mentally...untwisted. She's had plenty of chances to sit down and talk, and other than one aborted and contentious attempt she's avoided them. Granted, the other side hasn't been completely trustworthy, but still. Theres a lot of not thinking straight going on.
7353461
Who can say, with childhood and consent issues? We definitely don't have a baseline to compare to. I don't see the characterization being off at all, except maybe dismissing the possibility of a reasonable conversation with Twi.
7353827
I would like to see her find a third option, some reasonable compromise. And then be able to ethically enjoy herself when she gets a break from princessing and spends the weekend in the kinkiest perversions the cmc can imagine.
7353938
You want to kill fictional children for apparently consenting to sex? This is how we end up with elementary schoolers on the sex offender list.
7354240
Maybe it's not as big a jump as everyone's assuming? I mean, kids can easily get that certain things are only allowed in some contexts.
As for Zecora, she let Twi go for the same reason the rest of the Order does. They think that Twilight has issues and that this is what she needs to work them out. They're trying to *help* her, because they are completely certain that once she gets passed her monumental mental issues and reasons things out logically, she will join them willingly and completely.
7354345
The CMC are with the order, not in the order. This supports Luna.
7354403
It should be that she weighs more than Spike then, not that she weighs more than Twilight. If she weighed more than Twilight, she would slam Twilights head to the ground and probably break her neck like a hangman's noose in that position. It would be like trying to lay your head on a surface and pick up the rest of your body by the neck.
7355201 To say the order, even during said talk, did everything in their power to explain things would be disingenuous. Ponies from the order have had plenty of opportunities to just sit down and explain everything in a calm, rational fashion. Rarity took the opportunity to try to surprise force things onto her, Zecora had a literal captive audience and didn't try, the CMC explicitly refused to try.
7355201 there can be no consent by anyone that young, but as far as I'm concerned it's no different than say staking a child vampire.
7355328
In every case but Raritys, they were explicitly waiting for Twilight to calm down and/or the conversation started but got aborted. All Twilight had to do was take a bath, walk downstairs, and have a calm conversation with Zecora. Really, the only ones who are being dumb about the whole thing are the core cast. Twilight is reacting and irrational. All her friends and family are trying to manage her and force it. Which is understandable, but not the right way to do things.
7355350
wat.
7355445
Wait, someone whose classmates have all hit puberty definitely can't consent, but if a fictional character that age could then they would automatically be a monster needing to be destroyed?
7355510
Kids can't consent because they are considered too immature to understand the implications of sex, and can be duped into agreeing to it.
7355476
The CMC insisted that they couldn't explain anything or argue with her because she's too "fixed up". That's practically textbook cult bullshit.
7355510 what?
7355476 That's very debatable. Zecora could just as easily have met her in the living room. If not reaching across the aisle puts one individual in the wrong it should put the other individual in the wrong if they don't attempt either. And Twilight was somewhat calmer when they were conditioning her with the wing thing. She was certainly more willing to listen then.
The lack of 'alright, let's sit down and just talk' attempts are what I'm talking about here. No one on either side seems interested in just talking. It's all emotional knee jerks from Twilight and "ooooo mystery mystery you'll understand when you're broken" from the order.
7355535
Twilight being "too fixed up" isn't nearly as much of a cult thing as you'd think.
From what I remember from the earlier chapters (I'm not going back and reading any until all the chapters are revised), the major conflict of this story seems to stem from the fact that under Celestia's rule, ponies have become repressed sexually. Particularly the males. Twilight being someone who pretty much zealously believes in Celestia and taught directly by her would most likely be deep into her beliefs.
It's like a debate between two opposing sides and at least one side is an extremist. That side is going to vehemently deny anything said to them if it does not fit within their worldview.
A good few within the Order look like they're trying to lead her into it because if they're not careful they won't just break her of the sexual repression but break her completely as a person.
7355578
They all insist they're in the right, but all refuse to explain why other than to say that literally everyone else in the country are the insane ones, and that there is no sense arguing with anyone because they're just so brainwashed. They've created a system where members are to disregard anything "outsiders" say, alienating them from the unconverted. That's how cults work (well OK, it's one way they work).
7355578 the order is literally causing brain damage to ponies to convert them
7355621
I did just say this.
Both sides are the extremist side. One side is Twilight and Celestia's Rule which is the massive repression of sex and stallions. The Order is the other side. Both are going to be saying the other is absolutely wrong.
7355669
And under Celestia's rule, sex is so incredibly repressed and stallions face absurd legal issues for showing interests in mares.
Neither side is spotless.
7355692
I feel like you've taken a couple accusations (by ponies in the cult), and run with it completely into assuming that the status quo of the entire nation is just as extremist as the sex cult. Have we ever seen any actual evidence the law/culture is any more sexist/repressive than, say, the US?
Edit: it's not like Celestia's letter was "oh no, they're trying to undo my empire of repression!" It was more like "wtf is going on."
7355761
Day 42 (The Dinner) is my answer.
7355777
Yeah, that's what I was referring to.
7355535
I understand that kids, women, animals, and negros cannot consent to sex. That is and has been the law. My objection is to *killing them* because they're *insufficiently harmed by the experience.* which is what the original statement sounded like to me. That didn't sound right, so I put my response in the form of a question. Even if the CMC are indoctrinated with cult BS (which happens to be true in this case, but a broken watch is right twice a day.) then killing them isn't the answer. You rescue kids from cults, not murder them.
7355545
They're not vamponies yet. Right now they're just kids saying what they've been taught. Talking about staking them is confusing.
7355573
Both sides are acting bad, I agree. Rarity was the worst offender, trying to stone Twi through the scry. Twilight was in bed when Zecora was downstairs, so that's not on Zecora. When pinkie and the CMC try to explain, Twilight rejects them out of hoof. She uses none of her famed powers of logic or the scientific method to refute them. What other response is there to the non argument of "Nuh uh." ?
7355621
The problem is that we haven't seen them discuss the matter with anyone willing to actually talk. Either side could be acting this way, and more likely both are.
7355669
Well, theoretically after they convert them. And also theoretically to undo other brain damage of an artificial source. It's not a convincing argument, but the author is trying to make it ambiguous.
7355797
...
Except Day 42 wasn't accusations by the cult.
Day 42 was if anything, the opposing side sitting down and trying to explain just how repressed Twilight's side was. Shining Armor's side was belting out statistics and things that Twilight Sparkle acknowledged as well very very nonsensical and logical things.
Twilight was the one belting out "nuh uh"s on that day practically saying everything that went against Celestia's Laws was bullshit.
7355818
Yeah all the comments about killing them was ridiculous. That I agree with.
7355818 they've been harmed to the point they can do nothing else but harm others.
And trying to logic brainwashed children is a waste of time
7355818 "Yu-huh and here's why" sounds like a good response. I mean have they ever once explained how bdsm sex vampires is going to fix anything?
"Here's the problem. We've looked at multiple solutions and the only sane fix for the problem is turning everyone into nymphomaniacal lobotomized vampires. This is how our solution will fix this. ____________"
7355837
The field of deprogramming would disagree. Many people, including ones that were very young, have lead normal productive lives after being rescued from a cult. Even if you were right, then that would call for asylum not murder.
7355847
Well, in the most recent chapter the CMC make several attempts. Qtd:
Apple Bloom sighed. "You're too fixed-up for us to have a logical conversation, Twi. There ain't nothin' wrong with what the vamponies are doin'."
"They're raping—"
"No, they're not," Sweetie Belle interrupted, rolling her eyes. "They're making love to each other, and they're doing it so everypony can join and grow closer in friendship."
I took a deep breath. "Okay, then can you at least explain why you're in the Order?"
"With the Order of Spring," Scootaloo corrected me. "It's not something you're in. And we're with it because it's right. I mean, how else can we explain it?"
"There's other stuff too, but that happens later," said Scootaloo. "It's kind of complicated. All that matters is that we're happy now, and you're gonna be happy too, if you'd just stop fighting so much!"
"Scoots, ponies fear what they don't understand," said Apple Bloom, "even our good friend Princess Twilight Sparkle. She'll come around soon enough, I know it."
"We're not hurt," said Scootaloo. "You're the one who's hurting. And I can't believe I have to explain that, especially to a princess."
7355819
So I re-read that chapter, and yeah, just as I remembered the arguments lined up pretty well with stuff I've seen people argue about men being repressed in Western countries by the evil "feminazis". As a guy living in said West, I am not very convinced that their argument holds any more water.
Cadance and Fluttershy insist that texts are being censored, but I've seen people use that lie. They insist that everyone "self censors" and try and imply this big conspiracy by scientists/government to suppress their side of the story. I don't expect perfect lack of bias in the prevailing science, and we have no proof they were right or wrong about this, but I know for a fact that people peddling bullshit constantly make the same claims team rape was making about censorship. Not convinced.
Also, one of Shining's big arguments is that thing about losing guardsmen to rape charges.
Which is just... wut. It completely contradicts most police forces being insanely protective of their members; they've backed each other regarding murder and racism charges every time it makes the news no matter how much public perception goes against them. It's almost comedic to believe that they're having problems losing members to rape charges when apparently they're the only ones charging themselves, since according to them the mares aren't the ones doing it, and they're the ones in charge of managing rape claims. Oh, woe is them, they are such big victims of CONSTANTLY ACCUSING THEMSELVES OF RAPE, which they do because they're just so afraid of... having to arrest themselves for not accusing themselves of rape!??? I just... lol.
And of course we're ignoring the whole "the solution to rape is for the mare to consent." Seriously. From where I'm sitting Shining Armor's side did not seem especially rational due to that little "climax" to his arguments. Twilight wasn't very convincing, you're right. But at this point it feels like that's just because she's never ready with a good answer for anything other than how to escape. There are good retorts to everything her opposition argues, she just never makes them.
Oh, and here's something interesting I noticed:
It might just be nothing, but speaking in a monotone is sometimes associated with mind control/brainwashing. She also looks to Shining/Cadance before speaking each time, though it's possible that's just her getting permission to speak as a submission thing.
7355948 Those aren't really attempts at explaining anything though.
1) You haven't been broken. There's nothing wrong with what they're doing. No explanation of anything there, just a vague 'yeah they're doing things right'
2) It's not rape if the Order of Spring does it, it makes us all super duper friends once they've been broken and lose their marbles.
3) We're with the order because it's right. No reason why it's right, it just is. Genocide the Earth Ponies. Why? Because it's just right.
4) You'll be happy when we cut out the part of your brain that'll stop you from being happy with the Order and brainwash you through "not rape"!
5) "The order's fucking up your life, which is making you miserable, so you should join the order so you'll be happy."
I'd accept them as vague non-answers at best.
I hate to make so many comments in rapid succession, but I want to be clear that I make no absolute claims that there definitely isn't a repressive pony society currently. I don't think there is, but I recognize there is no real proof. My point is just that the arguments made in The Dinner are in no way proof that it's true, or even particularly compelling evidence.
7355979
The Equestrian Royal Guard is not the same as a western country police force. Those usually don't have functionally-immortal God-Princess matrons directly in charge.
Unless Twilight shows us the statistics, nothing is truly clear.
7354345
Or ideology. Thing is, there's still hierarchies at work, else Shining Armor and Big Mac wouldn't be able to give out orders to other followers. The question is: How many? And are they perhaps working at cross-purposes?
7353938
Yeah. I'm sure that wouldn't be difficult to explain to ponies outside their situation at all. And Twilight can ask Celestia when the last time was that she had to murder children when they meet up next! Maybe over tea.
7355201
It can still happen. The squirt did say she's looking forward to it. As for the other point: There's very likely a list lying around somewhere. One copy in Ponyville, one copy in Canterlot. Probably in a folder with the other towns. And yes, I'm incredibly curious myself.
Can we get a list of this at some time, Trick Question? Please?
vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/mlp/images/f/f8/Rarity_begging_5_S1E20.png/revision/latest?cb=20130730221758
Oh please please please!!!
But that's just it: The others aren't letting her go. They try to keep her prisoner until the transformation is complete; unless all of this has been one long game to wear her down, but that doesn't seem likely. Too many moving parts. It's still more likely there are disagreements about how to proceed with Twilight. After all, until recently, Pinkie Pie also disagreed with Rarity's plan regarding Twilight.
7355979
Except the difference between that lie in reality and that fact in this fiction is the fact that Crystal Empire had been gone for ~1,000 years and had just reappeared. There was no way for her to enforce the censorship over the Crystal Empire in time.
You're also forgetting that Celestia is a 1,000+ yr old being who is very powerful and her government system is a monarchy. So erasing information is significantly easier for her to do in comparison to reality.
You're overlooking that in this reality the Stallions are living in a severely matriarchal society that punishes Stallions for the dumbest of thing. It would not be surprising if a stallion saw another stallion doing that could be considered "rape" but did not report it they would both suffer obnoxiously severe punishments. Each one of them is trying to cover their own asses thanks to the ridiculous laws that will come down on them hard.
Do you not understand how good of a motivator fear is? It makes people do amazingly great but also sometimes amazingly stupid things.
As ridiculous as its sounds it's absolutely true. If absolutely everyone consents to sex then how can rape exist? Because rape is forced, unconsensual sex.
The monotone can also be associated with a lack of respect rather than mind control/brainwashing as Princess Celestia is supposedly against everything the Order stands for/is trying to accomplish.
7356078
Or the Crystal Empire stuff is wrong. Because generally in a thousand years our accumulated knowledge is more accurate, not less accurate. Is phrenology out of vogue now simply because it's "censored?" There's too many very reasonable explanations, but instead of mentioning them you pick the one supporting the claim of censorship. That's how that lie works: they omit their way into letting people believe they offered the only reason the chosen data could be missing. Whether or not things were censored, their claims are are not proof in the slightest.
And the argument that they fear punishment is reminiscent of Orwellian "everyone spies on each other" situations. Except no it's not really, because we're talking about law enforcement specifically, who typically act above the law in those situations because THEY ARE THE ONES WHO DECIDE WHO IS PUNISHED. Shining's argument is that they are abusing their power to victimize themselves for fear of punishment that they themselves would be in charge of. There isn't the slightest hint of oversight given to us.
7356145
I think you completely overlooked this part and I think Cadance being a Princess herself for many years before Twilight would know this herself.
Second, they are stallions in a severely matriarchal society. Not only that but they are not above the law they merely enforce it. That's how it works in real life to in any society that's not a dictatorship or extremely corrupt.
7356185
The internet ate my original reply, which was way better than this one, but my ultimate response is that both my points stand.
The very post you replied to explains why Cadance's claim is proof of nothing, whether or not censorship exists.
About the guards, I would compare your idea of how they work to the blue-eyed/green-eyed islanders puzzle. Are they all perfect logicians who, upon one failing to report an unsubstantiated rape that no one involved thinks was rape, all wait a number of days equal to their number before simultaneously accusing each other of not reporting that the next pony over didn't report that the next pony over didn't report that the next pony over didn't report that the next............ That the next pony over didn't report that a rape occurred? That's the kind of bizarre robotic enforcement you need for your explanation to be believable. "Society compels them" is not cutting it for me. Not for law enforcement, at least.
7356027
There is some proof, though.
That's before Applejack was on Team Creepy.
7356252
The difference is that this law enforcement (which is also a military outfit) is sworn to Celestia. Personally. They're not just cops, they're the glorious princess' soldiers. They practically worship her.
So why wouldn't they rat each other out when their beloved princess advocates a Zero Tolerance Policy?
7356310
What does her anecdote prove? That Big Mac is popular with the ladies? I'm also not sure why they imply he'd be in trouble if he was a minor at the time.
Still don't buy it. Now we're making assumptions about Celestia's stated policy on what counts as rape. No one said anything about Celestia personally managing them, and constant rape charges would be absolutely horrible for staying her good graces, wouldn't they? And again I stress this is entirely internal. They are the ones deciding that their flirting coworker must be reported and ruined because... Celestia would be sad when her network of superspies finds out, and they're just so sure they'll be in trouble for not construing their coworker's actions in the worst possible light??? In trouble with who and for what exactly?
And are we talking people or goddamn robots? Frankly I consider it a miracle when rape is ever reported at all by an organization that caught it internally, so the idea they are zealously ratting friends out (to themselves!) is ludicrous. Are we sure this isn't changeling infiltrators getting real members kicked out? I find that way more believable.
7356380
The problem here is that you're choosing not to look at this as the fiction "Celestia is a one thousand year old, powerful monarch that has the ability to control the laws and the flow of information". All Celestia had to do was declare something was illegal centuries, most likely after some significant event, and enforce it. After that allow time to take effect and shit to snowball while she controlled it and congrats. She gets a sexually repressive society.
This isn't hard to believe or explain at all.