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the way you wrote it here just makes me wish that she'd killed him right there
5517108
Really? I'm kind of surprised at the severity of that, but I don't pretend to understand every visceral reaction this story is getting.
At the very least, you must admit: Shining Armor knows how to get into his sister's head. (Perhaps in several senses...)
I'm a fan of mind control stories. As in mental alterations or direct control, things like that.
For some reason though, mental manipulation just pisses me off
It's kind of the reason why I enjoyed Fall of Equestria when it was just a pic series vs the fleshed out story. Most of the pics suggested red collars were brainwashed you know
5517142
Oh, I can understand that. I think in this case he's really just trying to distract her, at least as written. But stories are made to be interpreted by the reader.
The incredibly slow pacing is both the best and worst part of this story. Moar!
overall this is an okay chapter, but I do have some problems with it
I feel like Dash should be a bit more aggressive with Fluttershy there. Something has happened to her friend that has totally warped her. Dash would probably feel like being nice or accepting to Shy as she is would be disloyal to the real Fluttershy.
And part of the problem I have with mental manipulation is how one sided things always are.
Cadance's mention of "Torrid Equestria" and Celestia's relationship with the other Sombra is actually a point against the argument she makes. It shows how highly Celestia treats relationships and what sort of risks she's willing to take for love.
Meanwhile Twilight simply states that she feels she has to talk to Celestia and she loves Shining but doesn't feel she can trust him. Instead of an arguement like this:
"You say you're the same ponies, and it's me that's the problem, or other ponies would be the problem. But you're talking to the mare who's probably had to deal with more mental magic in dangerous situations than any pony except maybe Celestia."
"A while back I got to watch Discord flip my friends personalities on their heads and make them act the exact opposite of how they normally did. And they didn't even realize how they'd changed."
"A few weeks after that, I personally made half a town willing to beat each other to death over my old Smarty Pants doll."
"Then there was your wedding. The Changeling Queen had you so mind controlled she could reduce you to a statue with a thought, but at other times let you act totally normal."
"And then I was called to the Crystal Empire, where I saw Sombra's fear magic and felt how real it could feel."
"So maybe you'll forgive me, if the ponies who are acting totally abnormal, and admit to magical transformations' assurances that they're still the same ponies aren't completely convincing."
I've just thought of something that would make this story so much more scarier.
Both sides--Celestia and The Order--are right.
5517852
we haven't even seen Celestia's opinion yet
5517862
Celestia either has a lot to explain or a lot to excuse, and we should be running into that excuse or explanation soon. Something has been going on prior to this story. And, I can't think of a good reason why Celestia wouldn't educate her top student in sexual matters unless she thought Twilight Sparkle would never need to know.
5517732
I largely agree! I think there are two things that makes this situation very different, however.
In all of the above cases, once manipulated, the pony acted completely differently from their normal personality. This case is different because the personalities of the ponies involved haven't changed apart from libido and submission. The primary mental change from Twilight's perspective has been their opinions, and it's very hard to tell whether or not that's because those opinions were simply kept hidden from Twilight (nopony confided in her about sex because they knew she was clueless). The change in opinions may suggest actual brain damage, but Twilight didn't suspect that at the time, and the fact that the ponies defend their opinions reasonably well makes brain damage less likely as a primary cause. If the submission effect is magical, it's unlike what Twilight has seen before and it doesn't explain her brother at all (which is her main concern). I do agree that Twilight suspects everything you're saying, but she feels like she should be able to reason with her brother because he's still able to discuss things in a reasonable way (and this might even be partly true for her now). This made it difficult for Twilight to determine (again, at the time of the event, not the time of the rewrite) whether or not everything is due to mere difference of opinion. If anything Princess Cadance has said is true (specifically the censorship claims), then she actually does have cause to oppose informing Princess Celestia.
Granted, knowing what she knows now, Twilight would not have had difficulty making that decision. But at the time, she hadn't yet been exposed to Big Macintosh assaulting her, Cheerilee in the barn, or her parents molesting her. The vibe here is intentionally "pod ponies"-like, by which I mean it shares a sort of "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" ambiguity which tempts our heroine to suspect she might be in the wrong and simply acquiesce. This happens because the personalities of ponies haven't really changed significantly, so Twilight can't help but question: wouldn't I still be "me" if I gave in...? Mightn't we all be happier and friends again...?
You might argue that Chrysalis did something similar to this kind of manipulation, but the only ponies who were truly "hypnotized" at the wedding were Cadance's three bridesmaids. The bridesmaids acted very unnaturally and probably wouldn't have passed as normal in public. Shining Armor acted strangely, but this was partly Twilight's perspective because she was looking for signs something was wrong. Shining's behavior and beliefs were never off at all: he was merely fatigued by the Queen draining his love in private. The reason ponies thought Queen Chrysalis was Cadance was because she was an excellent actress. Remember, she even fooled Princess Celestia, who knows Cadance almost as well as she knows Twilight. Twilight figured it out because she and Cadance were deep mutual confidants when she was a filly.
The second difference is the time scale. In all other cases, the mind control effects lasted for less than a day. In this case the effects have lasted for weeks with no major personality changes outside of what I mentioned above. This makes the changes seem much more permanent. Additionally, with Twilight recently learning loads of new things about sex and relationships (in particular the fact that Fluttermac had been going on for nearly a year right under her muzzle), she isn't certain to what degree all of this is due to her naivete.
5517900
That's a reasonable viewpoint.
I think Cadance's opinion might imply that Celestia intentionally avoided the topic because she doesn't think anypony really needs to learn about that sort of thing formally, not even her prized pupil. But it seems very likely to me that Twilight's stunted social growth necessitated learning about friendships first, which didn't happen until Twilight was a mare, and so Celestia had no choice but to defer talking about sexual matters to the far future.
It's also possible that Celestia is a little crazy given her personal experience with relationships over the past millenium, so she either doesn't want to (or knows better than to) broach the subject with a student. If you're not aware of canon, Celestia and Luna have only been Princesses for a little more than a millenium and were (personality-wise) foals previous to this, which means Celestia's infamous relationship may well be the only romantic relationship she has had her entire life.
5517900
She obviously never taught Twilight anything about social interaction either. But she expected her to need that.
Twilight still had parents to teach her about sexuality. We see here that Twilight is close with her them.
5518978
Other things have changed besides libido and submission. They've also become sexually aggressive, imposing themselves on others without permission, like Shy preening Dash. Oh, they back off if challenged, but they make it clear they still want to be doing it and expect to eventually be doing it again. That might seem like libido, but libido is just sex drive. It affects how you feel, not how you act.
5519124
Yes, that's true. The boundary issues are largely... Well, I could say more, but I'd rather not geek out information that will come with the story anyway.
"You just have to trust me, because my entire wondrous plan depends on secrets and lies!"
Yeah... very trustworthy.
5519358
But: Just three more days, that's not much to ask, is it? Okay, maybe a little casual incest and bondage and probably some kind of mindrape might happen but at least it won't take long!
5519407
I love the focus on assent vs. consent, when according to some of the conspirators they are literally lobotomizing their victims. That's a pretty cut and dry reason WHY consent prior to sex is so important. They themselves pointed out that assent is easy to acquire, the implication being that an unwilling pony would assent when they were done with them.
I must keep reminding myself, though, that the males are victims too. At this point they've outright stated pretty disgusting and villainous conspiracy stuff both in private and to Twilight; if you have any faith in any of the males then it's clear they've had their minds made for them as well. We still haven't seen how they are converted; is it any different than the females? Is Fluttershy really ground zero? What exactly is the motivation if we assume a female patient zero, which would imply it's not just to acquire some male dominated Equestria. Since the Nightwing ponies are apparently pretty tightly related with this (somehow), perhaps Fluttershy was converted on her stop at Canterlot and they (or Luna??) are the source of all this.
5518997
Yea, but it bugs me from a "completeness of education" POV. Even if the education was "this is how you do it, how you do it safely, and how you prevent foals from happening when you don't want them". Celestia might have neglected social training and how to make friends, but this seems like a blind spot... Especially with the censorship claims made by the Order conspirators, it almost seems like Celestia is trying to "cure" something.
Of course, if you want to get really paranoid, Celestia has been breeding for a all-mare's world for the last thousand years plus because she things stallions are icky. So, the Order has a both legitimate grievance and wish to "cure" the problem. However, the cure starts making the disease look good.
5519728
Trick Question is using the comics as canon. According to the comics Celestia has been in love with an alternate version of King Sombra since before Luna became Nightmare Moon. That suggests Celestia does not fine stallions "icky." Though I do wonder if some of her past actions on the subject of relations between stallions and mares suggests she feels mares need protecting. Of course, Twilight had never had reason to investigate the laws the Order references or discuss them, so they could be making stuff up to confuse her. Or, considering it seems to have something to do with ponies that mostly went into hiding with Luna's banishment, and an empire that vanished for a thousand years they could be archaic laws no longer enforced.
5520231
Also the outside writings (print books). But those are almost universally considered canon, even though most ponies haven't read them!
5521328
Let me guess: Sexicals...?
I really, really wonder what's been going on. How does it all fit together? What's the truth?
Something happened to Fluttershy between day 1 and day 19. But what? Did Discord leaving break her so much inside? Did she then finally give in to an urge to 'play' with her animal friends in a way that most ponies wouldn't consider healthy? That might explain why Applejack's apples went missing, and only the ones easily overlooked, if she fed them to the animals to encourage them. Maybe she couldn't deal with the guilt, until a message told her to go to Canterlot where somepony would cure her of it. Or maybe they simply promised to cure her of her fears?
Did they use the brain-bore on her while she was there and then sent her to the Crystal Empire to infect Cadance? Was Shining Armor in on all this beforehand? It certainly points that way.
Or did it all start from a magical relapse of Flutterbat? Did the original spell work that way on Fluttershy because she was already predisposed, genetically or otherwhise? Did getting intimate with MacIntosh create a fall into a 'heated' state? Does the order use Fluttershy's vector heat-bites as a means to break ponies into acquiescing to the effects of the brain-bore? As in 'let the stone have its way with you, then we'll have our way with you'? Something like that appears to be the case with Applejack, at any rate. I don't think she was crying for help. I think she was crying for release.
And did Fluttershy only bite Twilight? There were more ponies up there in the loft with them. Maybe Cheerilee got her own bite from Apple Bloom, if she actually did get one...
5521596
I will forever hate people for making that word up...
5524681
Spoiler that!
I believe the argument being made is something like it's okay to do something to somepony as long as, in the near future, they end up appreciating what you did; and that the "need to wait" is only an issue the first time. Whether or not that constitutes rape is an open moral question, especially since these assurances still have not been proven to be sound within the story.
Look, here's the deal. I am constantly worried that she's gonna go to Celestia and Celestia will be all like Let the stone mind rape you!" First off, I want Celestia on her side. I won't forgive it if this story does that. Also, at first it was sad, but now it's getting predictable and annoying that EVERYPONY IS AGAINST TWILIGHT!!! I know the order is everywhere but have SOMEPONY that she can actually go to help for! Someone other than Pinkie, Spike, and MAYBE Rainbow seeing as AJ is down.
Sidenote: STAY STRONG AJ, WE'RE COMING!!!
5545432 'twas fate it be shown
... Red Flag. Did they hypnotize her and fail to convince her of something right there? No way she remembers so little details.
Yeah, Twilight's lost.