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Well... I can't say I like this little development... but I guess that was the point now wasn't it? Those who fight monsters and all that... So, kudos.
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Keep in mind that as crazy as this world is, there is still a ground in reality. Having a story where everything goes right tends to be a very boring story and a little bit of bad time gives it more oomph. Really though, you shouldn’t worry too much, because we havent even hit the worse point yet.
....This plan will backfire in the worst possible way.
You know, say what you want, but that's an attitude I can respect. She did what she thought she had to do... but she has the metaphorical balls and spine to admit to herself that it were still crimes that she committed. She isn't the hero in this. That's more than you can say about a lot of characters like her.
Gotta agree with the doctor, for once. It mixes up "lover" and "noble steed" a bit too much. You can ride them both, but you aren't supposed to ride them both the same way.
...that is just fucked up, but I still can't stop laughing. Chrysalis really loves her job, doesn't she.
It's easy to talk about "necessary sacrifices" when it isn't you being sacrificed. This guy? He's the bad kind of anti-villain. I've loathed him since the moment he appeared on screen.
He's asking you for "one favour of my choosing, to be specified at a later time." It's a literal classic devil's deal... and you'll deserve whatever befalls you for that, you massive asshole.
I'm kind of questioning whether this humanity is even worth saving right now.
I HATE THIS CHAPTER, VERY MUCH. THE SISTER JUST WENT OOC FOR ME!
7714118 But this was not the right route. I rather them actually deal with the fallout of what happens.
7714521 and i agree, its not the right choice. Jed had to sell this to me. And frankly, I rather state the truth, hence Marcus and Stephan feeling off about the entire deal. They are military men, the ones that dont really deal with politics at all. They understand the need, but they dont like it. But at the same time, we also have to understand that the public is a fickle thing. I mean... look waht happen recently to get a clue.
7714513 sister? Luna?
7714356 Marcus doesnt have clean hands either, but then that is because...
Well, you will find out in the next chapter.
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Writing Chrysalis is one of those things which really makes me love my job, if you can call it that, as a contributor to these chapters, especially since it helps take some of the edge off the dark corners they're heading into. Not that, including the last two segments you quoted, any of this is anything I didn't sign on for, mind you. Quite the contrary.
P.S.
Today is Memorial Day in Europe and Veterans Day in America. To my knowledge, we didn't deliberately plan to post today's chapter to coincide with commemative events, but it feels somehow fitting.
7714536 The sisters, as in Celestia and Luna. heck Luna should be even more against this after being in the other Twilight's mind. Using a nameless corpse. okay, telling the truth also okay someponies would understand some won't which will add strength to the anti alliance group. Jed's wrong on this. Heck I'm not a Dr. Who fans but it sounds like Bowmen version is one of the darker incarnations of the guy and even HE is against this idea. THAT ALONE SHOULD TELL YOU SOMETHING.
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No doubt. With the way this story has been going so far, this kind of thing is really what anyone should have expected to come sooner or later and I'm certainly in no way upset at the story for it. I do enjoy getting emotional and angry at bad decisions that characters make, though. I find it cathartic.
And yes, Chrysalis really did a lot to make this chapter not veer to deep into the grimdark. Cadence Floss, I'll be laughing at that idea for a while yet. It's made with love!
...that was one of the most morally disgusting things I have ever...ever read...so-called protagonists do.
...it's seriously despicable. When you're doing stuff like what your enemy would do?
YOU'VE ALREADY. LOST. THE WAR.
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That, mate, I am certainly not unaware of. But let's wait and see how exactly this unfolds.
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You got it.
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I like to put it as "When monsters fight monsters, it doesn't matter which one wins, because everyone else loses."
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There's something to this, yet, as you may have noticed, for all that I'm one of those people with a fixation on the "monstrousness" within ourselves, I'm just as interested in finding the humanity within our monsters.
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That was just figurative, for the aphorism effect. I have this bad habit of orating when I really should be talking. I'm personally a big proponent of the position that there are no monsters, only people who present the worst within all of us. We all have the potential for this kind of thing, and ultimately, everything we do is a choice. There is no such thing as "necessity" or "having no other options." You make choices or you fail to... but in the end, it's all on our own heads.
7714858
Welcome to the club, though I'd like to believe I've made progress in that area over time. I'll now be signing off for this evening, so, one more time, I'm glad you enjoyed Chrysalis' tireless efforts to keep a different class of villainy alive in these dark days, most evidently through the aforementioned "Cadance Floss".
Why not apply the "they won't blame her" argument for the second Trixie? I'm sure there'll be no shortage of sympathy for what she's been "forced" to do, and the "destroying her life" thing only depends in that case on how strong she is.
Couldn't the Doctor have nudged events into the best case scenario where their faith in their friends works anyway?
Well this chapter makes me uneasy. This makes wonder how this will work out for the other trixie.
I can't say I liked using the second Trixie for this... but alas, war makes you do some unsavory shit.
And I fucking love Chrysalis goddamn it!
Loved working on this as well guys, nice job!
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The tragedy is, they might have a good chance of getting ahead with the ponies of Equestria by playing the "they won't blame her" card. But an act such as that requires trust, and their recalcitrance to do so is a sign of how, even after all the help provided by Lyra's people and these kinder Equestrians, their image of Equestria has been tainted by the Empire to the point they regard the ponies with all the cynicism of humanity.
Also, explaining what happened to the Spy would require providing detail as to how she got brainwashed. And that would mean either having to withhold certain facts regardless, risking public paranoia that anyone could be unwillingly turned into a sleeper agent, or arguably worse, admitting that all Weaver really did was reach into the Spy's head for programming which was already there, provided by human military training, and merely switch the targets.
Expect some second-guessing to crop up in the next installment, however.
7714513
"Anyone who thinks they are naive is more naive." I subscribe to the idea that just because we've never seen the royal sisters do questionable things, that doesn't mean they won't if they see a need. You have, however, confirmed to me the need to explore the consequences of this on them, emotionally speaking, so thank you.
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You might be right, but not necessarily in the way you'd think.
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And that would be the point.
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I happen to think that he's quite realistic: after all, don't real politicians make the same kinds of choices all the time? In this, Mikey is hardly unique.
That was deliberate, and I'm really glad you picked up on it :-) As it happens, I believe that Bowman will likely not ask anything too terrible… but it's fun to speculate.
I say again: that would be the point, though I'd say the real question is not whether the whole are worth saving, but whether it was naive of anyone to assume that they could be without making hard choices. Good people make bad choices all the time. "Sometimes the only choices you have are bad ones, but you still have to choose." Does that make them not worth saving? I don't think so.
To all commenters thus far: what I've tried to aim for is, I suppose, "darkness". Not superficial, but genuine, profound moral complexity and hard choices. You may think I'm wrong, and that's ok. But I stick by this work. As Red and Fluffy and others will tell you, I have pushed for new dimensions where I can. This is just another new dimension. I thank you for your opinions thus far. As Vox said - expect second guessing, not to mention third guessing, and a lot of moral uncertainty.
Take care, all.
Jed.
7715635 Yes I could see them do dark things but again Luna saw what happened to the other Twilight and Celestia knows about that. Considering that i see them more against trying anything like that. This was just not the right move. Things already weren't going to plan for them with the whole kidnap the Major. A nameless corpse fine but this Trixie? That just going to far for me.
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I'm curious: "a nameless corpse" would have been fine? Regardless of how it was acquired? Why is it different because it's Trixie?
7715674
Couldn't it have been a magical construct?
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Would have been discovered eventually, and even the cleverest magical construct isn't 100% convincing.
EDIT: Also would have negated one of the key objectives, which was the introduction of this kind of morally complex darkness into Spectrum. No one cares about scapegoating a construct. Same with using a newfoal corpse. No one cares. Actually, using Trixie was Vox's idea, since people really care about her :-)
7715674 because the corpse is already dead and leaving the corpse nameless prevents no pony from the actual blame. However Trixie is alive and well yet they plan to force memories on her and have her imprisons for crimes she never committed. The nameless corpse is a lesser evil.
7715696
Not the way we would have used it, it wasn't. The original plan, before Vox's suggestion, was for a sinilar baby-blue mare to be found on Spectrum Earth - a vagrant, actually - and for her to be summarily blamed and conveniently "killed escaping capture". That plan has the disadvantage of there being no mare to confess, just a body. Using Trixie gives us a scapegoat happy to confess to the crime.
Thing is: the entire point of this arc is that yes, this is not a "good" deed. It's a bad deed with good intentions. The entire point is for us to take these "heroes", and say "actually, they're not as morally clean as you think, and if they have to, they'll do bad things, if it means saving humanity". That is, sadly, how real life works, and this story has always purported to work realistically.
7715694 Didn't the evil tyrant make an avatar of herself that didn't disappear after it was killed?
And how would that have been discovered if they cremated the "corpse" after showing it to the public.
The same problem is that this farce can be discovered because I think Weaver would cry in joy about telling the populace that an innocent pony was sacrificed.
7715698 But this is going to far. if it continues I'm gone.
7715700
1: she used the mirror pool, which arguably creates a sentient being.
2: sure, they could have, but Luna made the valid point that there are less questions from a live mare actively admitting to what she did than there are from a corpse.
3: way i see that quandary is simple. Weaver could try revealing the truth. But it wouldn't work against A) the word of the Princesses, B) the word of the actual criminal, and C) in a climate already drenched in pro-human, pro-PHL support. She'd be like an anti-gun campaigner at the NRA's Xmas party. And that's leaving aside that the second she tries being public she's done.
And leaving aside all of that - our protagonists already know the secret won't last forever. In fact I can imagine some brilliant material in a potential sequel covering what happens when it's exposed. But it's like everyone points out: it doesn't need to last forever. Just for today.
So there is no reason to fight against it?
No real chance that another race in another dimension can find another way?
Even a nation where the Elements of Harmony are an integral part of society?
"Hey Pinkie how do you feel that Trixie gets killed in the next chapter to show how reality is supposed to work everywhere?"
7715769 I never said no one fights against it ;-)
7715805 Sorry sometimes I am getting to emotional
I am going to have to play some Mass Effect Paragon.
7715704 I will only say this to conclude. You don't like what's happening. Fair play. You're not meant to. No one's asking the readers, or indeed the characters, to think this is a nice thing or a moral thing they're doing. They're doing a bad thing for a "good" reason (the preservation of the alliance, with much less risk of making the alliance seem weak, incompetent or dangerous to Equestria at large than outright telling the truth would have). That doesn't mean it's a good thing.
If you think it's immoral, you're almost certainly right. But no one ever said that our heroes always had to be moral. Even Greek heroes of ancient myth made some serious moral eff-ups. And frankly, in a war this nasty, this apocalyptic, that's pushed humanity this far, I'd think it was pretty unrealistic if the people we liked, our "heroes", didn't need to make and actually make immoral choices. You can make whatever decision you like when it comes to reading, and ultimately Red will stop me if he thinks I go too far, but I stand by the material I've included here. It is necessary. Nay, it is vital.
7715635
I never said it is unrealistic or unnecessary to the story, I just said I dislike the character for it. That's not quite the same thing. Since I think, in the general sense, that a well-written character is one that I think behaves like a person, I try to also read them as if they were real people. I'm the type to question which side in a story ought to be winning not just on the basis of who the story tells me is the enemy, but on how they actually behave. I loathe what you might call "protagonist-centered morality." As I said in another comment, when two monsters fight, there is no real winner - and what makes us into monsters are our choices.
And the thing about "the good guys" is that they're good because they have lines they will not cross, while the bad guys respect nothing. It's why I distinctly preferred Chrysalis attitude in this chapter: she did what she thought she had to, but she has no illusions about what that makes of her. Mr. Umbrella Man, on the other hand, is the type that goes "it serves to our benefit, so it's acceptable when we do it. For The Greater Good!" It's hypocritical. A good man who has to make a hard decision is different from a bad man who makes these decisions without a care. Talk about sacrifices when it's actually you being sacrificed.
I'm a little disappointed that Renee didn't. It's such a classic literary trope, after all.
I'm actually not too happy to hear that. I wanted him to ask for something terrible in exchange, or at least very personally painful to Renee. One of the things that make stories more enjoyable than reality is that in stories, karmic retribution is something that exists. People don't just get what they get, they get what they deserve.
He made the decision to destroy an innocent's life today, for an uncertain benefit that even he doubts. He should pay for that.
7716311
I see your point.
Well, if I pointed out every reference I did, I'd be a bit boring, wouldn't I?
Well, I thought about it a bit as I was writing it, and much as having the Doctor exact a terrible revenge thingy would have been interesting, I didn't see it as being in his nature. The actual thing I have in mind, though I can't talk to you about it (spoilers and all) is more him, in that it will come from a place of optimism and hope in a time of uncertainty and vengeance. And, mind you, I might still change my mind and have him drop Marcus off on a planet of Daleks :-p
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I'd be satisfied with it even if was just Bowman demanding "you must publically exonerate Trixie Lulamoon for her crime, clear up the real situation, name the guilty parties, and personally shoulder the blame for all suffering she went through." You can even say that he has been carrying the guilt of it and feels better now that it's out, for all that I care, I just want there to be a real consequence to it, even if it is just ruining his reputation and smudging his place in history.
Besides, it has a poetic justice to it if a deception would be punished by having to tell the truth.
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I guess we'll have to wait and see what opportunities present themselves. :-)
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That's a tendency prevalent in many of the characters I write for. Can't get them all, of course, but for the most part, they are candid about how the things they do harm others, and at best, are aiming not so much for some vague "greater good" as for what they believe is the lesser evil.
7714772 happens more times then not I'm afraid enhanced integration come to mind and thats nothing short of torture just with a pretty name to it they could of asked her and then let her has the best gilded cage
Darn it I feel IMMENSE regret over this meeting, because I should've put my two cents in earlier. Basically they could've suggested to have some sort of "Mind Trial" where it's a trial to determine whether the defendant is guilty of a crime they committed was on purpose or it was committed under mind control. It could've been something that hasn't been done in a century or something. Also the trial would've been more about what kind of punishment the Spy would receive rather that she gets to walk away freely and it would've been between the usual banishment from Equestria, or in this case the entire planet, or be under house arrest in New New York until the war starts and probably won't be allowed into Equus a few years rather than forever. I feel like it could've been something that Celestia would've suggested before Luna's idea. This could've been something that would satisfy everyone but this idea will just make the Proud Warrior Races turn on them if this conspiracy ever got out, or worse yet, be on terrible relations with the humans post-war when the celebrations was all done and over with. Also if the Tyrant wasn't cured or killed it will be one more thin that she'll hold over their heads, saying that she's right and all that.
If anyone else ever find out about this will cause a lot of in-fighting between other members of the PHL, specifically Vinyl. She'll probably try to rescue the normal Trixie from this whole plan in the first place if she were ever to discover this. A trial would've been a more better idea, than... this. So I can only hope the whole thing goes without a hitch and people who dig into this will try to believe them when they say, they'll reveal everything after the war.... You know what, my trial idea is starting to sound more and more like a plausible idea rather than this one if what I wrote in the previous sentence doesn't happen.
My trial idea downside: A few more upset ponies and possibly other species not trusting humans but won't be motivated enough to try to stop them.
This idea downside: Potential second war with other species if the plan was discovered and released or very strained relations with other species if this goes off without a hitch.
7718925 hm... no. It would of been far too convenient for them to have something like this set up already. I probably would of called dues machina if we went the way of mind trails anyways.
7719085
So... even if it's pretty possible they could exist because of their magical culture, it wouldn't because it's too convenient for this situation. Heck, even a regular trial wouldn't work because it's too convenient, wouldn't it?...
Darn it, so all I have to left to hope for is that their plan work without any further problems but with the possible consequences being that Stephan's Trixie might either quit the PHL when the war is over or dump Stephan, or both. Because I hardly see that his Trixie would've been okay with this, but the Blue Spy personality would. that's assuming if the Blue Spy personality is saved and not destroyed.
Damn it, I read this story because I wanted some good TCB and some good rebuttals to the invading equestria's ideals. While this story was good at first, it seems to me that it became just a clusterf**k after the chapter where Stephan is kidnapped. I just can't make heads or tales of this. Also, apparently there are now more than one doctors in this story with their own background? When did this happen? I still love the general ideas and the more in depth analysis of the TCB world. I just wish I could bond some good rebuttals. Like in the TCN: Spectrum Case Files, the conversation between Marcus and Rietman. That was awesome. Can someone please tell me of more stories like that? Thank you
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Bowman, y'mean? He started out in side stories: specifically Once More Unto The Breach and Snowbound, and I believe the chapter of Light Despondent where he appears has gone up fairly recently. He's my character - something of an indulgence I admit, but eh.
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Bowman's your character Jed R I was just about suggest to Redskin that Bowman could at least try to suggest my trial only for Marcus and the others to reject it because 1) The Princesses never had trials like this before and 2) there are too many random factors in the trial that could go wrong such as not knowing what kind of Lawyers and Prosecutors will be participating such the kinds that only care about winning kind of out number the ones who would follow Phoenix and Edgeworth's philosophy of finding the truth.
7722196 you and i are going to talk later.