If It Takes Forever
They were weak.
All their bluster, all their assurances, and they were weak. Just like everyone else. Everyone. Victory in our grasp, our clutches, our jaws, and we failed. Struck down in our moment of triumph.
All fail me in the end.
...I was weak.
It pains me to admit it, but being sealed in a prison of stone affords one a remarkable sense of perspective. I was weak enough to fall for their lies, muttered platitudes of friendship and alliance. Friendship? Me? Unthinkable. Even desperation shouldn’t have driven me to such stupidity. What has friendship ever afforded me in the past? What has loyalty ever wrought save for bitter betrayal?
I have no need for friends or allies. I was foolish, blinded by visions of revenge, lured in by the honeyed lies dripping from the tongue of that old goat. Or not a goat as it turned out, but we still outsmarted him, didn’t we? We saw through the chaos god’s deception, soundly defeated him with the very weapon he was stupid enough to gift us on a platter.
No, not we. My plan, my victory. The others had already succumbed to his promises, but not I. I’ve heard lies like his before, from the traitorous grubs my hive fell victim to, and I saw them for precisely what they were. But in that moment, when his mask fell away and we had won our first, real victory, that was when I fell to folly. Not from his words, but our trio’s success. To have comrades again, so reminiscent of the warm embrace of my hive. I do not do well alone. I have not done well alone. A queen needs her subjects. A queen needs her loyalty.
But partners? Equals? That was a mistake, my mistake. Stupid. Foolish. Weak.
I was going to betray them eventually, of course. I’m sure they were planning the same. None of us would share Equestria, even if we might share in our revenge. But, for a time, I allowed them in. I gave them my confidence, and once again it was dashed against Twilight Sparkle and her band of friends.
Statues. That’s what they made of us. Icons to her success, our defeat. Celestia always did know how to make an example of her enemies, a demonstration of the fate of dissenters just in time for a new monarch to take the throne.
But it is not strength. The ponies imprisoned us because of their fatal flaw, the one which will prove to be their undoing. A ruler must be strong, decisive. They cannot hesitate, or spare their enemies the axe. But Twilight Sparkle will never take that step, just as Celestia refused to do, and one day it will be their ruin. So we stood in the gardens of Canterlot Castle, locked in place, frozen in time, years rushing by like a swollen river.
The Princess would take walks, staring up at our immobile forms, and we would stare unblinkingly back. We watched wordlessly as she grew more and more like her equally reprehensible mentor, settling comfortably into her role as her mane began to flow and she grew to tower above the ponies around her with a nobility she did not deserve. And still she would walk in the gardens and stop at our statues, and then she would sigh and shake her head and walk on.
Until one day she stayed.
We didn’t know, then, what she wanted from us when she unravelled us from stone. When the rock flaked from our bodies and we collapsed to the dust, too weak to even stand. Impossible to say how many years it had been – I lost count after the first decade. And as we lay there, breathing in air we had forgotten was sweet, stretching aching muscles that were finally remembering what it was to move, Twilight Sparkle made her declaration.
We laughed when she told us. Our first taste of freedom, our throats hoarse and dry, and still we laughed. And when she shrank back at our answer we only laughed harder, and her despair was delicious. I practically lapped it from the air.
Repentance.
That’s what she asked – no, demanded – of us. To renounce our deeds, honestly and truly, and become nothing better than the meek, pathetic herd she ruled over. To become servile, to her. And so of course we laughed as she tried to persuade us, even though we knew what it meant. What she would do afterwards. We laughed anyway, and when I had strength enough to pull myself up onto quivering legs, she knew she was out of time. We knew it too.
Back to stone.
Back to days sliding ceaselessly past, back to birds perching unwittingly on my muzzle, back to the garden’s visitors staring up at us with a mixture of awe, fear, and pity.
The last one only made me angrier. How dare they? Pity? For me? I dreamt of tearing right out of my cage, of ripping the love out of those pitying ponies until they went cold. On some days I felt sure my furious snarl would widen enough to break through the rock, my hatred unable to be bound any longer.
It never did.
When Twilight unsealed us again, so many years later, we didn’t laugh. We refused her offer again, of course, but I could sense the cracks beginning to form in my unlikely allies’ resolve, even if they couldn’t. I didn’t know which was worse – the cruelty of our punishment, or the fact that it was beginning to work.
Time passed. I lost count not only of the years, but of the times Twilight had unbound us and we had refused her. Those cracks I had sensed were widening, and their reluctance to keep denying Sparkle was sickening.
Tirek broke first. I did not think he’d be able to find a way to disappoint me further, but of course he managed to. One would think his incarceration in Tartarus would have prepared him for something like this, that he would have lasted the longest of all of us, but he crumpled like wet paper. Pathetic.
Perhaps Tartarus was his undoing in the end. Perhaps he remembered, reliving it twice over in his head, imprisoned yet again and perhaps for aeons. Perhaps that was too much. Beat a dog, and it will learn to fear the whip.
It doesn’t matter. All that matters is that he was the first to betray us – betray me – and grovel before the pony. He couldn’t even bring himself to look at us. I would still have some shred of respect for him if he had, if he could at least have looked us in the eye as he shattered the alliance we had made, if he had the guts to acknowledge his cowardice. But that would be a contradiction, wouldn’t it?
Rest assured, he was a coward, and he knew it. And if he didn’t, Cozy Glow and I were quick to inform him. The pitiful creature wept and grovelled, and when Sparkle swept him up in her wings in an embrace, murmuring reassurance and comfort, she smiled. Another victory for her. Another soul cowed and broken.
I can at least take some pleasure in remembering how her smile faltered and died as Cozy Glow and I continued to curse her name, cursing Tirek’s too, spitting fury and hatred. All deserved, all earned. A pathetic coward and his new, wretched mistress.
And only two of us were returned to stone.
Tirek’s cowardice was so great that he never returned to the gardens. I didn’t expect him to, except perhaps to gloat, but even he must have known that would be as hollow as his resolve had turned out to be. Instead, he was simply… gone. I do not know what became of him, although Sparkle would later assure our statues that he had indeed turned over a new leaf and become her pawn, her slave. Not in those words, mind you, but it is so very easy to read between her lines. She imagined that would serve as a motivator, I think. A disgusting kind of equivalency. If he can change, so can you!
She didn’t realise how much we despised him for what he did, couldn’t comprehend that he was now as good as dead to us. That’s her friendship, again. Another weakness: forgiveness. If one of her friends were to do the same, she would forgive them. And in allowing such betrayal, she invites it in. It’s only a matter of time.
Her attempts to sway us continued as the years passed. I don’t know what prompted her appearances – there seemed to be no pattern to them. Sometimes only a couple of years would slide by between her unearthing us, sometimes entire decades. We remained steadfast.
At least at first.
I have to admit, the filly surpassed my expectations. She often did, even before we were locked away. So young, yet so precocious. There are very few things in this world that have impressed me, but Cozy Glow came close. And she held out against Sparkle’s efforts for far longer than I imagined.
She’d seemed the most afraid when the stone took us, after all. But in the rock that fear had given way to a similar anger that burned within me, it seemed, and whenever Twilight unbound us Cozy Glow would spit on her offer with vehemence to rival my own. I was proud of her spirit.
But no matter how strong-willed, no matter how angry, a filly is still a filly. A pony is still a pony. And over time her anger began to dull, clashed against Twilight Sparkle’s unflinching question, time and time again. Whilst my own fury still boiled, Cozy’s became muted and quiet. Her strength failing, and when Sparkle would wrap us in stone again, Cozy Glow began to flinch.
I was losing her.
There was no time, you understand. Twilight did not wait, did not allow us to wax lyrical or discuss amongst ourselves. There was only the question, hanging in the air, and when we refused she would encase us before our strength returned and we became an actual threat.
And so I had no time to reinforce Cozy Glow’s disdain and reignite that hatred. No time. Barely enough time to fan my own flames, to spit on Twilight’s name and assure her I would never submit to a pony, least of all her. And as Cozy Glow grew quiet beside me, my anger was alone.
I knew it was only a matter of time, and Sparkle must have done, too. And the day came when Cozy gave the quietest of sobs as the stone surrounded her again, and I knew she was going to break. Twilight showed her true colours again then. She had broken Cozy Glow’s spirit, shattered it against the stone she imprisoned her in, but when she heard that sob to confirm it she left us there for the longest time yet. Longer even than the first time.
Long enough that I could feel my own mind slipping away, that days and nights no longer felt distinct, light and dark merging into a constant, unrelenting grey. So long that ivy began to snake across our stone, wrapping and strangling, that the corner of the gardens we resided in grew forgotten and overgrown. Long enough that if we were truly mundane statues we would have crumbled into pieces from the elements.
But finally the day came, and I knew Cozy Glow would turn even before I hit the ground, so weak as the stone melted away again, staring up into Twilight’s impassive face. Searching for the emotions I could taste spilling off of her in waves. Guilt. Pity. Sorrow.
The guilt tasted sweet, everything else was bitter to my tongue.
And I watched, silently, as Cozy Glow sold herself to the devil, as tears rolled down her cheeks and she promised to be good, just please Twilight don’t lock me in the stone again. And Twilight smiled and extended a wing and although Cozy was at least a little more hesitant than Tirek, she still accepted it gladly.
And unlike Tirek, she at least had the guts to look me in the eye, after. We were wrong, she told me. There’s no point in fighting any more. We don’t have to.
Traitor, I hissed, and I would call her many other things besides, things I won’t repeat here. I should have known I would stand alone at the end of it all, the only one with true commitment and resolve. The only one with a spine and determination. It would take far more than this to break me.
Twilight cut me off, and as her horn lit up I turned my ire on her instead. She would learn that I was not so easily cowed, that I wasn’t scared of her. That I would never be scared of her. I cursed her until the stone crawled down my throat and silenced me. And then they left me there. Alone.
Cozy Glow did return, several times. I watched from my pedestal as the years passed. I watched her grow up. She would come and share her misadventures, and she would try to persuade me to ‘see the error of my ways’. It made me sick to see how utterly Twilight had crushed this filly’s soul. And then no longer a filly, a full-grown mare, and I did not really know where the time had gone. She still visited, though, far more than Twilight herself.
She could not have seen through the stone that covered my irises, she could not have seen the malice lingering within them, but I believe she knew I had not changed. That I would not give Twilight so much as an inch. Cozy would continue her efforts, talking to a statue that could never answer back, trying to convince me that we were wrong. We’d been wrong, and cruel, and I should take Twilight’s offer as they had done. That I could have a hive again, that the changelings had grown so much more populous and integrated than ever before, and I could rejoin them.
And even though my statue remained immobile, I hope she could tell how much that suggestion sickened me. As if I would ever agree to become what that traitor turned my changelings into. As if I would ever view that as a success instead of a corruption of everything that we were, everything that made us strong. Thorax destroyed my hive, destroyed the changelings, and for Cozy Glow to tell me it was all for the best… Well, even she seemed to struggle to believe that one. She couldn’t look at me as she said it.
Reformed. Enslaved.
Broken.
Twilight unsealed me only once over those years. Once, in a lifetime. I wonder if Cozy knew that. I doubt it. Instead I was forced to watch as the second pony to try and change me grew old before my stone eyes, and then eventually stopped coming at all. Twilight delivered the news herself. She didn’t unseal me for that, though, speaking up to my statue instead. Even still, I wonder why she didn’t. Perhaps she thought I would not want to be seen grieving. She thought wrong.
I didn’t grieve for Cozy Glow. If she had died, it was the moment she had surrendered to the Princess’ lies. There was nothing of Cozy Glow left to mourn, all these years later. Just another weak-willed pony, beaten into submission.
And then I really was alone. The ivy climbed again, now that there was no one who cared to clear it. My fury only burned hotter in my isolation. I clung to it. It was a rock in the storm, a lighthouse in the raging sea. The only thing I had left, the only thing keeping me from slipping into oblivion – my sanity, my identity, all falling away if it wasn’t for that raw hatred. All I had, the only thing in my restricted circumstances that had no restraint, nothing to hold it back. Years, decades, maybe even centuries alone with my thoughts, and they were filled with dreams of retribution, of escape and fire, the sky dark with my drones as we conquered. As I took my vengeance for this ignominy. The only comfort I could find in my otherwise desolate existence. Small comfort, yes, but comfort nonetheless, enough to heat through my stone heart, anger that burned hot enough to sear even through the rock.
I was so lost in it, so acclimatised to the nothing that I didn’t even notice Twilight approach until the stone was flaking away again and I collapsed to the thick foliage that had reclaimed the ground around my pedestal. Just once I would have liked to have enough strength to resist the pull of gravity. Just once I would have liked to have stood tall over Twilight and watched her pitying expression turn to fear. Alas, it was not to be. The stone was too much, too draining, too different. After years of barely existing, freedom was always too much to hold up.
“I don’t expect you to have changed your mind,” Twilight said, as I floundered in the dirt, “but you know I have to ask. I’ll keep asking.”
I couldn’t help myself. Normally I would have spat insults and cursed her name, but the years had changed my anger. Before, it had been boiling, but now it was… not cooled, but more concentrated. I didn’t lash out because it no longer spilled over, instead it simply filled me, every part of me. And so instead I lay in the dirt and I couldn’t help but try and understand. “Why?”
Twilight blinked, as though it was obvious, as though the question hadn’t even occurred to her. “Because everyone deserves a second chance.”
“We’re far past second chances, don’t you think?”
She shook her head. “Everyone deserves another chance to redeem themselves. Everyone deserves kindness.”
Even as the overgrown plants pressed uncomfortably against my face, I couldn’t help but laugh, and the bitterness in it soaked the air. “This is kindness, then?”
“Of course it is,” she said.
“There’s no kindness in this, Sparkle.”
“Only because you haven’t learned your lesson. Only because you won’t change.” I could hear the frustration leaking into her voice.
“And what if I never do?” I asked. “Would you keep this charade up forever? Am I doomed to eternally stand in your garden, a statue in some forgotten corner?”
“I think everyone can change,” Twilight said, but even she must have known that didn’t answer my question. “After all, the others did.”
“And yet I’m still here.” I smiled. “Have I changed? Do you really think I will?”
“Not yet, but-”
“You’ll try forever, Sparkle, and I will fight you until my last breath. I’ll never surrender to you.”
“It’s not surrendering,” Twilight insisted. “It’s just deciding to be a better changeling. A good changeling. I have to believe even you can be good.”
My eyes narrowed. “And if you’re wrong?”
“I-”
“I will never become the mewling creature you want me to be, Twilight Sparkle. Do you really believe that sealing me away forever is kindness? Is that good?”
I could see her resolve shifting, swaying, bending. The slightest breeze of resistance threatening to snap it in two.
“One day you’ll see I’m right,” Twilight said. “And you’ll be glad that I gave you these chances. That I didn’t just leave you here, like everyone expects me to do.”
“We both know you couldn’t do that,” I sneered. “Your conscience wouldn’t let you.”
“Please, Chrysalis. I’m trying to help you.”
Was she begging? And I had thought she couldn’t be any more pitiful.
“You’re trying to help yourself.” I tried to pull myself up but my hooves gave out and I clattered back down to the dust again. I hated it. I hated how weak it made me seem, hated how my wings could flitter and thrum but had no strength to lift me, how my hooves quivered at the slightest bit of weight as though I was a fresh-born nymph again, hatched from an egg of stone.
“There are only two ways this ends,” I told her. “Either you kill me, or one day I will escape this place and wrench this underserved kingdom from your miserable little hooves. And you know that as well as I do.”
“Everyone can change,” she repeated, her voice full of pity that made my stomach churn.
I wonder who told her that. Her mentor, most likely. I did not even have time to laugh at her words before she encased me again, my once noble and indignant statue becoming a weak wretch, crumpled on the floor where I had been unable to even stand.
She has not returned since.
It has been a long time.
I’ve lost count again, and so I lie here and watch the world turn. Encased in rock, degraded and pathetic. The ivy grows thick, smothering, burying me in a blanket of green. But I will stand any humiliation. I am Queen Chrysalis. I do not surrender. I do not break. I am strong. And I would live in stone before bowing to that pony. To any pony.
I have patience. I have nothing but patience, endless, unfathomable. One day I will find myself free of these bonds, if it takes an eternity. One day I will wreak my revenge, and it will be swift and sure and as cruel as this punishment, and I will watch Twilight Sparkle scream as I tear every last speck of love from her.
I’ll win in the end. I’ll always win. I’ll never break. I will not be forgotten.
I’m the strong one, the only one left, the only one still willing to stand up to her.
I am a Queen.
…
And I always will be.
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"He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby become a monster. And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee."
-Frederick Nietzsche
Let's get that stale bread.
Torture breaks almost everyone eventually, but some can hold up against it forever.
"Why do I get the feeling that Crysalyis has already been through something like this?
Perhaps she is old, older than any of them, a relic of a bygone era so far into the past that not a single soul, not even herself, remembers.
A strong will.
An Eternal will.
Brought about by time itself, a burden so cruel it makes her current standings look meek.
She is a Queen who has lead her people from the begining of their inception, pried them from the clutches of extinction more times than she could count and has pushed back monsters the likes of which few ever dare to gaze upon, all for her precious children. She is their queen, for the benefit of her hundreds of sons and daughters she will strive to serve them till the end of time.
And none, especially not a child but a few centuries old, shall change that.
Besides, she has never yielded to Chronos before, why start now?"
9950405
Usually those fighting for their believes, however twisted.
9950429
According to the comics she’s over 1,000 years old. Starswirl played an (accidental and unknowing) role in her creation. He had his beard but appeared to be wandering around by himself, so it’s probably in his pre-Pillar days, which likely means that she’s older than Celestia, albeit by only a few years or decades (and what are those to immortals?).
Furthermore unlike most ancient beings in Equestria, Chrysalis was active for all those thousand years. Out and about and scheming and conquering and eating. Remember that it’s not the years, it’s the mileage. And while Celestia sat pretty in Canterlot and dealt with the occasional monster attack, and Tirek lounged in Tartaros, and Discord chilled in stone, and Nightmare Moon dreamed in her own prison, Chrysalis led the changelings day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day.
And in all that time she managed to keep the changelings secret and strong, to lead them through victories and defeats and more without them ever becoming more than myth and rumor and frightening shadows in the dark, even as there were enough of them to consume entire cities at a time.
Chrysalis has a monumental ego and tremendous pride ...but they’re more than earned.
9950458
On the other hand, the comics also state such silly things like Novo being immortal and such. I wouldn't be too keen on taking them as gospel.
Yes, the unflinching evil through till the bitter end. Exactly as her character was meant to be.
9950462
They’re a useful resource, though, and I rather like Chrysalis’ origin.
9950464
She’s not exactly being given much of a reason not to be evil other than to stop Twilight torturing her.
9950468
All I'm saying is that Chrysalis's character was never designed to be reformed so this fic is very appealing to me because it's very in-character.
I don't get what you're trying to say.
9950469
i don’t believe that she was never designed to be reformed, for one thing. Yes, I’ve read the EqD article and the blog post that you made and have previously referenced. I disagree with them both.
Which isn’t to say that I don’t think that this story isn’t in character; it absolutely is, which is why I favorited and upvoted it. But since I disagree with the premise that Chrysalis has absolutely no path to redemption, it means that observing that she’s being unflinchingly evil here is not how her character is “meant” to be, it’s just the only option that Twilight is leaving her with, since the alternative is capitulation to torture and surrendering her pride, something she’d never do.
If Twilight doesn’t incentivize a change with anything other than “the pain will stop”, if Chrysalis is capable of enduring endless pain, then why would Chrysalis change? This is indicative of Twilight not understanding Chrysalis and what it will take to change her, not of Chrysalis being incapable of changing.
9950496
Then I won't bother on that point any further.
I see the point about Twilight.
9950505
As to Chrysalis, that’s fair. I am actually capable of agreeing to disagree.
Although speaking of that Twilight smiling there I am kind of starting to get a little tired of Twilight acting like “Keep Calm and Flutter On” never happened in these sorts of fics. Now I personally hate that episode but just ‘cause I don’t like a thing doesn’t mean it’s not canon and didn’t happen. Twilight should know full well that the main reason Discord reformed wasn’t merely that he was unfrozen from stone and told to. It’s that he was also given fairly wide latitude to act and move around while unfrozen, a chance to - while under supervision - be directly shown the benefits of friendship rather than merely told about them for a few seconds.
Ah Twilight. You are so cruel and arrogant. To assume that all life must abide the pony way. You have learned nothing, friendship and harmony is about differences and accepting them not forcing all to be as you. Chrysalis's vengeance will be just considering the unjust prison you keep subjecting them to. Killing them would have been the kinder thing. Ponies are some of the few creatures in literature that do the most evil things through 'goodness'.
She will be resolute. And it looks like she will die that way.
This is really well written. I honestly want to see more of this but I do realize that this was mostly just a one and done type story. Nonetheless I appreciate just bow well done this was and applaud you for your take on an irredeemable Chrysalis.
9950512
have you watched the last few seasons? Most of the mane six dumped their brains in bleach. you can tell the writers were scratching at the bottom.
Those crazy, dysfunctional, evil and friendly ponies were cringe inducing in the first few seasons. Now they are just sad.
9950535
Actually my favorite episode is a Season 9 one (“Frenemies”) and my favorite song was in Season 8 (“The Road to Friendship”). Generally I thought the quality of Season 8 and 9 was pretty good, though there were stinkers largely caused by character flanderization, and I despise the finale (though the epilogue is okay). The only season I think I can say I broadly disliked was 7, and that more because I struggle to really remember anything much about it rather than because it was genuinely bad.
Oh, I hopped aboard the horse train back in Season 2 with “Luna Eclipsed”, if it matters.
9950531
Chrysalis's vengeance will be just?
Just no.
When you attempt to subjugate a country three times for no reason other than selfish power grabbing then being trapped in stone is very just.
I mean... one day she will never return to life and that should break anyone's will. One day no life will exist around her. Will she break then.
9950627
oh it is... when she was first stoned. How long ago was that? in our world we have life sentences but the person can still live. they can eat, drink, sleep and do other pesky little things like turn their head. This is a "And I Must Scream" torture to keep it going longer than it takes to find a way to nullify her powers and send her to court and then prison. Celestia and Twilight are monsters for this. It is inhumane and unjust.
Chrysalis's vengeance will be just; It will be equal payment for what Twilight is doing right now.
Two wrongs do not make a right. Chrysalis does indeed deserve punishment; in proportion to the crimes committed. But now; Twilight deserves punishment too. This fic makes her out to be every bit of a tyrant that Celestia is (in the show no less) and I bet she is proud of what Twilight's doing.
9950722
"Two wrong don't make a right"?
Except nothing Twilight is doing is wrong. Punishment doesn't fit the crime?
Uh:
Three attempted take overs of Equestria.
Started a major race war among Equestrian citizens so bad it brought back the ancient Windigoes.
Kidnapped Cadence.
Kidnapped the entire Royal Family and the Element Bearers.
Brainwashed Shining Armor.
And the entire reason her species was held back on hunger was because of her poor leadership.
At this point Chrysalis would face death and I don't even support death penalties. Don't make her sound like she's a victim because she isn't. She's facing the consequences of her actions because she refuses to change from being a vengeance fueled self-entitled monster.
And Celestia is a tyrant? That's a complete joke.
Hm, it might be interesting to have a sequel where Chrysalis is so lost to hatred that even though she may not remember what she hates so much, and when Twilight eventually releases her again, she may be so twisted and warped that there isn't anything left of who she once was but the hate, not even her name.
On the other hand, perhaps Chrysalis breaks eventually and Twilight forces her to reform. It could be interesting to see how broken Chrysalis eventually ends up being. Neither Tirek, nor Cozy Glow nor Chrysalis are made for pony friendship, so having Twilight realize none of her charity cases truly succeed could be fun. Perhaps Tirek could eventually wander out of Equestria, unable to truly adjust. Cozy Glow could die alone, unable to make real friends. And Chrysalis, forced in an unwilling reformation, could just be a broken shell.
9950741
it isn't wrong in your eyes to permanently paralyze a person for all time? To rob them of all movement? of agency? To not even fade into sleep? There is no decency in Twilight's actions. She is dangling freedom. She is basically saying "i'll make the pain stop, but you must follow." and that there is one of the many crimes in this fic worthy of being placed right next to Chrysalis (for as long as combined time Chrysalis and the others spent and not a second more; that would be just).
You think Chrysalis should face the death penalty? So do I. Come on Twilight; be kind, be merciful, be generous and above all; respectful (two of these virtues ponies just don't prescribe to). Kill her off. "Oh! I would never do that! Could never do that!" she'll just keep her up in there til her mind breaks completely and the only thing she is offering redemption to is a crazed animal spazing on the floor not knowing that it is no longer stone.
Chrysalis is a victim. It doesn't excuse her crimes in the slightest (and never implied that). I am pointing out how in the end it is two monsters talking to each other.
9950761
A victim is a person who has done little to nothing wrong and face unfortunate incidents.
A victim is NOT a tyrant who has left nothing but hurt and destruction in their wake and then has all of their negative actions catch up to them in a punishment/consequence.
You're doing the same thing as all the people who try (keyword) to defend Cozy Glow where you say she did bad stuff but don't say what she did because sane people would look at that and say "She deserves this".
And to top it all off throw a false equivalency into the mix by making Twilight Sparkle a monster because she maintains the consequence of Chrysalis's actions that you won't speak of. Because somehow keeping a person who did all the listed actions below trapped in stone because she desires to continue being the monster that got her into that position somehow makes Twilight a monster.
Jesus, this was chilling.
It does make me think though, that Equestria's way of punishing villains is exactly that, punishment. In our world, at least ostensibly, jail is about reforming a person, to make them fit for living in society (I say ostensibly, because many people see prison as a means to punish a criminal, even if on paper it is about reformation), where in Equestria it is literally throw them away indefinitely, or turn them to stone.
Equestria certainly knows the word oubliette, and it seems apt for this... they are literally put in a place to be forgotten. I mean, Discord was in stone for 1000 years or so, and he was all but forgotten except for Celestia and Luna. Hell, even Luna was forgotten by all other than Celestia for 1000 years. Without Twilight constantly trying to reform them, the alternative would be in 1000 years some fillies fight underneath the statue arguing over what they represent, not knowing that they are living creatures perpetually suspended in stone, unlikely to break free, as they are not powered by chaos as a certain draconeques was.
Compared to what we've seen in the show, this IS actually kinder.
I liked it!
a little side story of a changeling in this distant future finding this forgotten piece of the garden and pulling the vines away to reveal chrysalis's crumpled form would be interesting.
9950772
Here's the thing. Twi's strat will only serve to change absolutely nothing. I'm reminded of that other fic where she has a parole hearing for the 3 (explicitly pointed out they're fully aware the whole time stoned) where she's just doing the same song and dance over and over expecting them to just magically go with her. It's like Vaas's Definition of Insanity speech in its full glory. Trying the same exact strategy over and over expecting this one to be the time it works without changing it in anyway whatsoever. Worse in that she can't even give the dignity of a mercy kill, just letting them stew until their minds just break utterly and go braindead or they suddenly go all nice.
Keep Calm and Flutter On explicitly showed that the thing to truly change Discord was to actually *show* him kindness, and then yank it away. Causing him to actually finally get it due to some actual action from Fluttershy. The only thing this Twilight is ensuring is that some future generation is going to have an even more pissed off Chrysalis that's going to gun for her throat and everyone inbetween unless Twilight either A: Makes an actual effort to change her and not hope for some outside miracle or B: Just grow a spine and kill her already.
9950772
Here's the problem.
This story is premised on the idea that Twilight wants Chrysalis to reform. It may or may not be possible, but that's not what matters insofar as Twilight is concerned here, what matters is that Twilight thinks it is. However, Twilight despite this belief keeps doing the same thing over and over and expecting it to work eventually. Now, yes, it worked on Tirek and it worked on Cozy, but Chrysalis isn't Tirek and it isn't Cozy, and it should have long ago become abundantly clear that it's not going to, that if she wants to redeem Chrysalis then she should be trying some other method. So why does she keep trying anyway? Because Twilight wants it to work on Chrysalis. She wants to prove that she's right to Chrysalis.
In other words, this isn't about Twilight redeeming Chrysalis anymore. This is about Twilight's pride, her own will an ego and beliefs pitted against Chrysalis' own will and ego and beliefs. And in this story, Chrysalis has already realized this (or rather, she believed it from Day 1 when it wasn't true, but at some ambiguous point between Day 1 and Day Whatever, it became true). And the thing is that this does make Chrysalis Twilight's victim here, because she doesn't actually care about Chrysalis as a person - if she did, she would have tried some other method of redemption by now. Instead, she is only continuing this torture, rather than either admitting defeat and executing Chrysalis, or trying some other means of redemption.
The victimization isn't in the fact that Chrysalis doesn't deserve to be trapped in stone for eternity; it's in the fact that Twilight is in essence using Chrysalis as a science experiment, a problem to be solved rather than a person to be understood - dehumanizing Chrysalis, or un-personing her, or whatever term you'd care to use. The tragedy of this situation isn't in Chrysalis being tortured, it's in the inhumanity being displayed by Twilight.
9950772
You are putting an awful lot of words in my mouth. You are even ignoring broader definitions to fit your own dialog. Until you actually start reading my posts there is not a whole lot more to say.
Just so you'll stop putting these words in my mouth I will waste precious time and energy and repeat your words like a parrot, This way you can no longer say that I don't say it (frankly I didn't as you said it and felt it beneath us both as you say it but you cling to this as a way to undermine my point)
I'll even go the extra distance and BOLD all the stuff you missed ;)
Three successful take overs of three different kingdoms.
Genocide of one whole kingdom
Genocide of fluffy woodland cats (one of the kingdoms)
Mauling one of the above in front of foals
Foal napping (three more cases onto what she has already done)
Releasing forgotten evil horrors onto the Crystal Empire
(unwitting as it was. She ran off when she learned of it, fearing the creatures)
breaking out of two prisons
Three attempted take overs of Equestria.
Started a major race war among Equestrian citizens so bad it brought back the ancient Windigoes.
Kidnapped Cadence.
Kidnapped the entire Royal Family and the Element Bearers.
Brainwashed Shining Armor.
And the entire reason her species was held back on hunger was because of her poor leadership.
=====
Superb Cow even highlights everything I am talking about. Though he has a good point; Celestia, to our knowledge, hasn't tried to redeem anyone till after twilight came about. Twilight is going the extra mile in both cruelty and kindness.
9950772
Oh, also:
So, first, I am in fact certifiably, medically sane. So it is with the full breadth of that sanity that I say: no, I do not believe that she does.
But someone else did a much better job of explaining why, and I'll let Anonymous take the wheel.
There's more but I don't agree with the rest (or that the writers have mental problems, that's just preserved for the sake of accuracy. I just think that the writers are inept who did not think through the full implications of what they were writing). Still, for posterity you can read the whole original here.
I will admit, I'm rather keen on this portrayal of Chrysalis. She opposes Twilight and indeed, all of Equestria, at every turn. She's not simply cruel because she can be, and in fact, she doesn't see friendship as meaningless and boring — like Discord — or as a waste of time — like Tirek and, fittingly, Twilight herself — or as a means to an end — like Cozy Glow — but as the actual antithesis of everything that she is.
In the same way that Twilight, the embodiment of friendship, will always give Chrysalis another chance, Chrysalis herself will never give friendship a chance. She can't give friendship a chance. One day, she will escape, and she will depose Twilight. And just as with Starlight Glimmer, Twilight Sparkles friends will come to her aid and challenge Chrysalis.
Chrysalis and Twilight are Fated to oppose each other until the sun loses its light and the firmament crumbles into dust, for if we are to enjoy the company of the Friend, so too must we face the peril of the Adversary.
9950858
Or if there's no friendly alternative, just kill Chrysalis, be done with it and not risk more pain and misery when she does inevitably break free. Despite what some shows try to preach, killing someone will not make you like them. Sometimes it really is necessary to just off them and save yourself many headaches in the future.
9950871
I mean...it really depends on the context and circumstances.
9950761
Yes, All the Yes! Especially one like Chrissy The reason is simple: SHE REFUSES TO CAPITULATE
Chrysallis is an egotistical bitch whose priority is her own power base in detriment of her own subjects, simple as that. Once she was shown that sharing Love healed her Changelings she should have embraced it if she was a true ruler (The Thorax Hive literally thrived once they started sharing the love).
Her first on Show apparition was literally "I will replace the Princess of Food, and since I'm the Princess of Food everypony will have no other choice than love me because I'm the Princess of Food, which will make me stronger and stronger until I can overcome Celestia and become the Ruling Pony. Then everypony will love me, and when I'm the most powerful being in the world then I'll give my hive enough scraps of love to let them keep adoring me." and that has been her course during the whole series. she's both unrepentant and unfit to be Queen.
seriously' and here I saw twilight say "Only you can stop the pain, admit that your methods were wrong and rejoin your sons and daughters in bliss." to which, Chrissy did as usual: snarl, curse and let her stupidity drive her back to the stone.
You don't know the basic definition of crime, it seems.
9950858
Hey... sometimes we make friends with folks who hate us. It makes for ~very~ interesting shenanigans, but it is possible. Sure, it usually devolves into competition and professional rivalries, but on the very rare occasion that folks are diametrically opposed but still manage it, it's a marvel to behold (a terror to live, but incredibly interesting to watch unfold).
9951008
It's hard to justify torturing someone forever, no matter the reason or the intention. You don't see it that way, of course, nor does Twilight. But Chrysalis will never yield.... so all Twilight is doing is keeping her in ceaseless pain. A slow, numbing kind of agony, but eternal agony nonetheless.
There's a reason why the kid in Old Yeller had to shoot his dog, no matter how much he loved him and no matter how much the act ripped him apart. The dog was rabid, and a threat to everyone around it, and was NEVER going to get better.... only worse.
And yes, Chrysalis is a monster... but that doesn't mean she isn't also right sometimes. Imagine you are living your life as best you see fit.... and then one day someone comes along, drags you out of your house, savagely beats you to within an inch of your life, burns your house down, gets you fired from your job, seizes all of your money, and convinces your family that you are pure evil... and then, this person pleadingly tells you that they didn't WANT to hurt you, they just didn't have a choice. You had to be stopped, and they can stop hurting you and be your best friend if only you'll apologize to them. The person who ruined your entire life to begin with. Just so long as you agree to give up on everything you've ever believed in, and swear loyalty to them.
Now.... is that person right? Wrong? More importantly.... does it matter? At all? Could you EVER forgive someone who did that to you? Would you EVER like them? Ever bend the knee to them?
Now, that's a horrible misrepresentation of the situation, you might say. And you'd be absolutely right. It's a half-truth that fails to take into account any number of incredibly important factors. I one hundred percent agree.
But it's also not wrong. And it's certainly how Chrysalis feels about the situation (and then some.) The heart is not so easily dismissed.
Of course, Twilight is a wonderful, wonderful pony. There's no doubt in my mind at all that cruelty is the very furthest thing from her mind. Or revenge, or anything but honest-to-goodness redemption. But she just can't see the situation through Chrysalis's eyes. That's ultimately her great failing here. She can't empathize with Tirek, Cozy, or Chrysalis at all. She CAN'T see the world as they do. She can only try to make them see it her way. Our girl.... isn't perfect, after all.
Give Discord SOME credit: His plot to bring those three together and unite them through villainous friendship pretty well demonstrated that he was the only one who really 'got' them. They couldn't accept friendship on pony terms.... but he very nearly got them to embrace it on their own, in accordance with their own world views. It backfired horribly and predictably, of course.... but it ALMOST worked. And if it had, it would have been the chink, the crack in their philosophical armor, that might have eventually led to them truly reforming themselves.
But, alas...
9951008
Thank you for supporting my "Chrysalis as the Adversary" hypothesis.
9951053
I have to say I agree. At the end of the day, Twilight took everything from Chrysalis, everything and all Chrysalis has left is that anger. Its Twilight's greatest failing that she can't see from other points of view. Its not that she isn't unwilling, its just her background experiences don't leave room for her to see it.
I think this is the biggest issue in real life as well.
At this point I think Twilight need to treat Chrysislis like a rabid dog and put her down. It will be sad but occasionally there are those who will not change and never want to change. Twilight can keep hoping but if it has been millennia and she will not change you must occasionally just give up.
9950462
Maybe not 'gospel' so much as 'canon'. I wonder when we began to equate 'gospel' with canon? It's greek meaning 'good news'.
9951008
Look man, in this situation there is no black and white; only grey.
Regardless of how much Chrysalis is in enthralled in her own pride and vanity; what Twilight is doing IS wrong. It doesn't matter the reasons why but the truth IS; is that Twilight took everything Chrysalis ever cared for. All Chrysalis has is her defiance, Chrysalis is never ever going to repent.
Twilight has good intentions, she believes everyone deserves a second chance. She wants to give Chrysalis that chance, but its never going to happen. At this point all Twilight is doing is torturing her. To spend eons in stone only to be asked by the one who took everything from her to repent for her actions every so often is horrible. There's a reason why DEATH is considered merciful in certain situations.
The KINDEST thing Twilight can do for Chrysalis is kill her. Chrysalis will defiantly hold onto her beliefs regardless of how warped they are. The problem is, is that Twilight will never order Chrysalis's execution so the torture continues.
Mmm.
9951053
I don't know what are you fighting about, I said some of the things from Chrissy's POV. Chrissy's not a hapless victim, she never was. She claimed to do everything for their changelings, but that was a delusion, to her, the goal was to obtain power first, second and maybe third, then it was to feed her hive. (that's the most generous estimate I can offer) That's why she refused Glim Glamoron's offering back when the changelings were blessed with the Gonzales-Camarena disease. because Chrissy knew that sharing the love would mean far less personal power for her, and yes, Chrissy is Old Yeller.
In your analogy - a frighteningly similar scenario to what I've seen my life to be for some years save for a torch known as Mom and without the "I don't want to hurt you... spiel" - Chrissy would be a singular entity, but we all know Chrissy isn't just Chrissy, it's Chrissy and the Changelings, that's why Chrissy became a Monster. some time in the ages, due to the harshness of Life, Chrissy stopped tinking about her bugs and started going on about herself.
This said, yes, Twily ain't purrfect, and she can't see things from Chrissy's PPOV, that's why she's unfit to redeem / reform / reintegrate her to society (likewise with the other 2 chumps).
In the end, what I'm saying is simply that CHRISSY IS NOT AN INNOCENT VICTIM TORTURED AND ABUSED BY THE TYRANNICAL PURPLE BOOK HORSE. SHE'S AN UNREPENTANT CRIMINAL THAT ONLY SEE THINGS THROUGH HER HATRED.
I'm not saying that Chrissy's is right or wrong either.
9951087
I'm more Disagreeing with The Weaver than agreeing with you though...
9951106
That's another thing. twilight Never took anything of Chrissy, That was Glim Glamoron, who helped The dork that is Thor Axe that Giving Luv was better than stealing it from everything around you, heck, one can even say that Chrissy herself threw away everything she had in pursuit of her vendetta against Twily and the Pones.
And let us see what was the last Crime of the Deposed Changeling Matriarch:
SHE SEPARATED THE 3 PONY TRIBES, BRINGING BACK THE DREADED WINDIGOS AND THE ETERNAL COLD.!
If there's something that Twily could have done wrong was to wait long periods of time before offering redemption to the three numbskulls.
In fact, there's another fic where Discord takes upon himself to redeem said three numbskulls... there Chrissy had the best ending (Revered as the Changelings Brood mother, tried to dethrone Thorax and another 3 Changeling Kings before going the way of the dodo).
9951147
Why do you think that?
When Chrysalis first spoke in her true form in “A Canterlot Wedding”, the very first thing she said was that as Queen it was her responsibility to feed her subjects. In that episode she in fact almost exclusively talks in terms of the changelings, her subjects, etc., when speaking of the benefits of taking over Equestria. And she was speaking to a room full of future pod victims, she had no reason to lie or obfuscate her true feelings.
In “To Where and Back Again”, Chrysalis switches between “I” and “we” in reference to the changelings and herself with casual ease. There is every indication that as far as she’s concerned she doesn’t see a difference between the above and herself. She is the changelings.
I totally believe that she puts herself first, but there actually isn’t much evidence to suggest that she doesn’t feel anything for the changelings as a whole and plenty to suggest a feeling of responsibility towards them. It’s not like we see her mistreating or abusing her minions. The only changeling she ever attacks, strikes, or even insults is Thorax - a traitor.
That’s not my read on the situation at all. My read is that Chrysalis had just had her house and her favorite chair blown up and her car stolen, and then the being who blew up her house and chair and stole her car and the gall to oh-so-graciously offer to give back the car and let her rebuild her house. Starlight had no right to take a Chrysalis’ crown from the perspective of the changeling queen. All she is offering Chrysalis are things she already had before she showed up and started wrecking the place. Food? Chrysalis has a perfect system in place for that already and had already seized Equestria and won food for generations for herself and her Hive. Being queen of the changelings? Chrysalis was already that.
No one used the word “innocent”. But she is absolutely a victim being tortured by book horse in this fic.
I wonder how Chrysalis would react to a conversation like this.
I lay gasping and wheezing on the ground. My love reserves were dangerously low. A stray cat would be a deadly threat to me in my pitiful state. I found enough strength to look up at my tormentor.
Twilight turned her head and looked into the distance. "Alicorns do not live forever, you know. Cadance and Flurry Heart died in battle. Celestia's time has come and past. Luna left for her stars and will never return." The wind pushed its way through the dry leaves around me. I had forgotten what wind felt like.
The alicorn continued. "I have a sense... no... a feeling of the order of this world, after having been in it for so long. Perhaps in a hundred years or two, Equestria will move on without me."
I smiled. I could honestly not remember that last time I had done so. Triumph filled my voice. "So I will outlast you. My hate will carry me beyond your reign. Then I will—"
"No, you will not." I could not recall Twilight ever interrupting me, even going as far back as our first meeting. "You are forgotten. Not even legend speaks of you. When I am gone, the spells that prevent your stone from weathering will weaken and fail. You will be ground to dust by erosion."
I wanted to raise my head and glare at her, but I didn't have the strength. My thoughts were muddled. That's why all I did was blink and gape at my lifelong enemy. "You would never allow—"
Again. "You are my responsibility. My failure and no other pony's, if you will." She moved closer and brought her head down. I could see every emotion in her eyes. Sadness, a faint spark of hope, but mostly resignation. "I told you I would give you every opportunity to reform... to change." Her eyes narrowed and her mood shifted to determination. Determination nearly on par with my own. "But I never said I would give you an infinite number of chances."
Her horn began to glow and for the first time in a very, very long time, I felt fear. "Last chance, Chrysalis. So what is it going to be?"
9951170
Honestly, that's the vibe she gave me after the Wedding, I feel she shifted focus from caring from the changelings to having her petty revenge on Twilly.
Likewise, I don't see that in "From Where And Back Again", maybe my view of Chrissy is totalñly horseshoed, and yes, I guess she had her home and garden ransacked after she foalnapped the Pony government, soi it was needed that Equestria's SpecOps were to do that to save the pony officials.
finally, while I agree that Twily is not the one that should have tried reforming the three numbskulls, I can accept that, at least on this iteration, Chrissy was, indirectly victimized by Book Horse, but then again, She's purple, and we all know Purple is the color of mindlessness.
In the end, I saw that The Weaver was saying that Chrissy was an innocent Victim, which wasn't the case at all... in this iteration, there is a serious case of Mismanagement that led to the Victimization of a Criminal, that I can accept.
9951186
Continued spite. Chrysalis still isn’t actually being offered anything that she would consider meaningful as a reason to reform, and Twilight just informed her that Chrysalis can make sure that Twilight never gets what she wants.
9951158
Torture, regardless of intentions is still torture. Chrysalis has spent centuries; eons in stone. Chrysalis has done horrible things that is true, but it does not mean there's a point when dues are paid. All those beings that Chrysalis has done horrible things to? Their gone with the sands of time. Even Cozy Glow is dead. (Though I think this is a feint of some kind. Her special talent is manipulation after all, I don't believe she changed her ways.) Just about everyone that was hurt by Chrysalis is either dead or so old that its irrelevant to the issues of the present.
Yes, Twilight is trying to help Chrysalis, but she CAN'T. Chrysalis blames everything on Twilight, everything. Its all she has left, there's no hope, Chrysalis has accepted her situation. But even defeated Chrysalis is a QUEEN. A QUEEN bows to no-one, a Queen leads, a Queen does not break, a Queen most be strong, and a Queen gets revenge for being humiliated. She will always be a Queen, this is why Twilight can't help Chrysalis. This is why death is a MERCY.
It doesn't matter in regards to Chrysalis on what she did to Equestria. Chrysalis BELIEVES she is RIGHT; and if you look at what is going on nowadays, people like Chrysalis double down, they are right and its all everyone else's fault. Nothing Twilight can do will change Chrysalis's ideals, her view of friendship, and what she did. Either Chrysalis will escape from her imprisonment and succeed in getting revenge, or she will fail. If she does fail Chrysalis will ensure that the only outcome will be her death because its get revenge or die trying.
What you don't seem to understand, is that Chrysalis' imprisonment has become unreasonable, it has become torture. You can only hold someone for so long. The only reason Twilight won't kill Chrysalis is that she doesn't want to have it on her conscience. Its why even the birds pity her. The only way out for Chrysalis is DEATH and that is the only KINDNESS that Twilight will not provide. Chrysalis is done, she has fallen on her sword, she WANTS TO DIE. She will force Twilight to kill her if she has to.
Why can't you understand that people will die for what they believe in? People have died for worse and better beliefs. Chrysalis is just one example.