The Destiny Of Life
Twilight blinked and looked up at the human standing before her. “I’m sorry what was that Anon?”
“What happens when ponies die? Y'all don't seem to have any religions or anything,” replied the human who leaned against the door jam, his hands in his pockets.
“We compose?” Twilight put down her quill and set aside the letter she had been writing. “I’m not sure what you mean.”
“Well most humans believe that we have these things called souls that are eternal and go to some manner of afterlife when we die,” Anon explained.
“Ahh the afterlife,” Twilight remarked. “Every living thing on Equestria goes to the fields of Elysium. Has no one explained this to you?”
“So like, it's one hundred percent confirmed that's where you go?” Anon pressed.
“Indeed,” Twilight declared. “I even glimpsed the place when I ascended and let me tell you it's as glorious as Celestia said it was.”
“Wait, you saw the afterlife?” Anon continued, walking forward and placing his hands on the back of one of Twilight’s office chairs.
“Ascension requires you to well, die. Albeit only briefly,” Twilight explained, wincing slightly. “It's not altogether pleasant, I assure you.”
“Dying doesn't sound like it would be fun,” Anon remarked.
Twilight chuckled. “I suppose it wouldn't.”
“So then, like everyone goes there? Every bird, beetle, pony, minotaur, whatever?” Anon inquired.
“Every living thing with even the barest hints of sentience, yes,” Twilight answered. “Every insect, animal, and even a few magical viruses go there.”
“Wait, even viruses?” Anon pressed, falling into the chair.
“The Piedmont incident was strange, but yes,” Twilight pressed. “Why do you ask anyway?”
“Well, I mean. I won't live forever you know,” Anon stated somewhat awkwardly. “And a lot of the old religions would probably send me to whatever version of hell they have.”
Twilight frowned. “For what? I know you may have your flaws but you certainly don't deserve such a terrible fate.”
Anon sighed. “Some religions might damn me for not dying in battle, others for who I like, and one might do so for not giving enough money to the church.”
Twilight blinked. “That is ridiculous. We are all deserving of a noble end.”
“Really? Even if they don't believe in an afterlife, or were jerks?” Anon continued.
“Why would it matter if they believed in it? Thats where they are going,” Twilight replied in a slightly confused tone.
Anon smirked. “Maybe no one told them of its existence.”
Twilight chuckled somewhat nervously. “Sorry about that Anon. I would have thought that was covered by the basic history primer I gave you on your second day here.”
“Oh it probably was,” Anon remarked with a shrug. “I just never opened the thing.”
Twilight sighed. “I should have seen this coming.”
“So, like I was asking, even jerks?” Anon pressed, leaning closer.
“Of course,” Twilight declared. “Just because you were mean in life doesn't mean you deserve oblivion or some manner of hell after it.”
Anon looked down, his shoulders slumping. “What if there was like, a pony hitler or something. Would he go there?”
Twilight shuddered. “Yes, even pony hitler would graze forever in the golden fields of Elysium.”
“But why? Don't you think if anyone deserved hell it would be him?” Anon asked.
“Let's back up for a second. I forgot to explain something,” Twilight announced, stepping up from her desk and opening the blinds, allowing the light into her small crystal office. “Something that is very important and will happen to us all.”
Anon sat a little straighter. “Like what?”
Twilight turned back to him and sat back down, steepling her hooves. “We all go to Elysium, but we also all experience all the wrongs we did in life.”
“All the wrongs?” Anon inquired. “Like, if you stabbed a guy you would get stabbed?”
Twilight sighed, and massaged her temples. “Yes, you would get stabbed but not like your probably imagining. There are no demons waiting to shank you.”
“Heh, pony demons,” Anon muttered.
“Rather you would feel each wrong you’ve done from the perspective of the person you harmed,” Twilight explained. “You would also feel and experience the full ramifications of your actions.”
Anon frowned. “I guess that makes sense. It certainly would be a poetic way to pay for one’s sins.”
Twilight blinked, her muzzle scrunching up in disgust. “Pay for one’s sins? Stars above no. It isn't about punishment. It's about growth. Its about becoming the best version of you.”
Anon opened his mouth to speak only to stop himself. “Wait, if you died, then you felt all that then right?”
“I did,” Twilight replied, smiling somewhat wistfully. “It's why I returned so…”
“Holier than though?” Anon offered.
Twilight rolled her eyes. “I would say experienced, or perhaps wisened.”
“So what was it like?” Anon pressed, leaning forward.
“It's as I said. I experienced every slight and act of hate I ever committed,” Twilight explained. “Though not pleasant, it granted me a certain perspective of the world. One that allows me to understand my little ponies in a way that mortals simply cannot.”
“Mortals?” Anon inquired, jabbing the pony’s hoof with a finger. “Your divinity is showing.”
“It's not that,” Twilight replied, recoiling her limb. “It's simply a term reserved for those who must worry about aging.”
“Alright, so back on topic,” Anon corrected. “I still don't see why pony hitler would deserve to go there.”
Twilight smiled knowingly. “Because a finite crime is never deserving of an infinite punishment.”
“Celestia told you that, didn't she?” Anon pointed out.
Twilight nodded. “She did. Though that doesn't make it any less true.”
“Not even pony hitler?” Anon asked.
Twilight sighed. “Yes, not even pony hitler.”
“Really though?”
The alicorn stood, and gave her wings a brief stretch as she rubbed her chin. “Alright imagine the worst pain possible, now how long do you think this bad guy of yours deserves?”
“The number eight but on the side,”
Twilight rolled her eyes. “Give it a real number.”
“A million million years,” Anon declared.
“That's a little cruel, but understandable I suppose,” Twilight murmured before shaking her head. “So you understand then that justice requires an equal punishment?”
“I guess,” Anon replied, leaning back in his chair.
“And what is more fitting than personally experiencing every wrong you’ve ever committed, from the perspective of the person whom you have wronged?” Twilight finished.
Anon sighed. “I suppose that would make sense.”
“It is the epitome of justice,” Twilight declared.
“Okay so then what about… me?” Anon asked in a slightly lower tone.
“We went over this Anon, remember? You too shall go there,” Twilight whispered.
“But I’m not from here,” Anon retorted.
“You are here now,” Twilight stated.
Anon stared down at his feet for nearly a minute before a smile crossed his face. “You know, this feels kind of good. I think I understand why ponies are so harmonious. If I had always been here, and knew that I would end up on the receiving end of every verbal barb or cruel act I ever did I probably would have been nicer back on earth.”
“It's never too late to start you know,” Twilight offered.
Anon stood up from his chair and stretched. “Nah, that feels like work.”
“It really isn't,” Twilight replied.
The human stopped at the entrance to the office. “I accidentally tripped Spike already today so I think I’ll start tomorrow.”
“That's not how it wo-”
“Yup, tomorrow will be the dawn of a new me,” Anon declared as he walked out the door. “A new, nicer Anonymous.”
Twilight smiled and shook her head. “Well I look forward to meeting him.”
Anon smiled faintly as he turned and walked away. “Me too Twilight, me too.”
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pony demons
pony hitler
bwahahahahah!!!
Okay. One thing straight off the bat.
Christianity is really the only religion that relies on not doing something in order to be sent to hell. That something is not repenting for your sin.
The Norse pantheon doesn't send you to hell if you don't die a heroes death, you just don't get the best heaven.
The Greek/Roman pantheons are the same, do good things go to good heaven, do bad things go to bad hell.
Now I'm no expert on the Roman/Greek Pantheons, nor am I an expert on the Norse. But I feel I have a fairly decent grasp on the Christian Trinity so we'll explain that. The punishment for sin is so severe, because big G God despises it so much. As a perfect, sinless, justice fueled being, God NEEDS to punish sin, disobedience, harshly. But also being a compassionate, loving, creative being who's spent his time lovingly crafting the world, universe, and every single creature, doesn't want people to experience this fate. So to appease both sides of his being, he sent himself, fully man and fully god to be the ultimate sacrifice for sin. The lamb and blood sacrifices before his death were meant only to temporarily redeem people of their sins, they aren't needed after because the debt has been payed, and any soul that realizes the debt is payed, and accepts the pardon, is allowed entry into heaven, and what comes after. Anyone who doesn't, whether willfully or otherwise, are sent to live out eternity away from god, in the one place he allows himself not to look. Which is the actual punishment of hell. Sure the torment and eternally cold fire is terrible in the complete blackness. But being eternally separated and unseen by the being that created you is the actual punishment.
I'm pretty sure there is a religion that follows those principles. Might be one of the asian ones, not sure. author might reply with the name of it. But as far as religion goes, knowing what's after the end of life is not something I want to know. I find issue with most religions, even Christianity has problems in my eyes. But it's the one I find most agreeable with logic and observation. Through scientific method and observation, you just can't quantify the world, the universe, as under the religion of chance. Hell, science even proves, somewhat, predestination, a very VERY Christian concept.
The main problem, in my eyes, with this philosophy is that morality isn't set in stone, and not every single creature experiences empathy the same way, or at all. Hell most humans don't feel the same empathy for each other. Hitler would've felt all the pain and went "Whatever, they deserved it." He wouldn't have changed his ways, seen the error, did anything different. Because he thought all his acts justified, right, and true. This punishment isn't enough.
10588879
Dang, you sound like an expert apologist.
I've always entertained the personal headcanon that ponies have an afterlife, but humans just cease existing. And that even the idea of that would be such existential horror to them, that they'd be seriously, seriously damaged if they ever figured it out.
10588994
Religion is something I find interesting, and I don't find pagans as disturbing company despite my religion telling me I probably shouldn't hang out with them :P I've met druids, Greek Hellenists, Norse Pagans, scientologists(Not the crazy kind, what I call people who believe in the scientific theories of how the universe came to be), Buddhists. All kinds of people with all kinds of view points. Yet to meet a Taoist or Shinto but I'm sure when I do we'll have an in-depth conversation.
People who refuse to learn about opposing viewpoints have no faith in their own beliefs. If I'm right, then why should I fear another's oppinion?
Anyways, off topic. I just like talking about religions, but this was a pretty heavy dig against my personal belief so I had to put to rest a few things.
Loved this
Another good Twilight fic, with a hint of my favorite Anon!
10588879
It should be noted that the argument that science can’t prove God exists is a double-edged sword. Also for all that scientists want to say that God does not exist more often than not if you start taking things apart what most noncreationism scientists say things just don’t quite add up. And as Sherlock Holmes once said, ’You are twisting the facts to fit you’re theory instead of forming a theory that fits the facts.’ or something like that my memory is a little foggy, this concept is also known as jumping to conclusions. Though I suppose that's the point of science isn't it.
Also, predestination while being a Christian concept isn't believed by all Christians, please don’t group all of us in the same pile. Now I will say that I do believe in God who exists in past present and future and observes them simultaneously If that makes any sense, I don’t feel like I explained that well. Also time as we understand and quantify it is a human invention.
10589084
I... Never said that. I said it was a christian concept. People don't like the idea that they have no free will, so most religions don't contain the fact that "Yeah, you don't really have free will under an all powerful being".
Yeah all I said was that it was a Christian concept. Pretty sure Calvinism or something is what it's called.
Interesting question: if a being knows what choices you will make in the future, but does not use this information to influence your choices, does it negate your free will in making those choices?
In other words, does foreknowledge eliminate the possibility of free will even if the knowledge is not acted upon?
Another interesting caveat: If the being DOES tell you the results of your initial choices and it causes you to make a different choice and change the outcome that would have taken place... was that your free will choice, or the being causing you to make that choice? Would it then be free will only if you make the original choice?
(Alondro loves muddying the waters of philosophy, since he finds most of it very silly.)
10588994 I sentence you to hell. (you immediately end up in New Jersey)
10589091
You are correct, I do apologize that’s just how it came across to me. Also, you are correct about the particular part of Christianity that believes that is indeed Calvinism.
10589103
10589091
Speculating about free will is pointless because free will doesn't make sense as a concept. The idea is simply fundamentally incompatible with an educated understanding of the universe. Everyone thinks with their brain, this is an undeniable fact; we have identified parts of the brain responsible for every kind of thinking activity, traced neurological issues to problems in the brain, can modify behavior with chemicals or electrical stimulation, etc.. What a person thinks is entirely explainable by the deterministic chemical processes that happen in the brain. Starting from this data, it is then impossible to describe what free will is in any terms, that is to say, it's not just wrong, but so irrational that there isn't a combination of words to describe the concept earnestly.
Free will is the idea that your actions, barring coercion, are determined solely by you, but also they're not preordained in some way, that they can't be predicted despite them being chosen by you who has certain preferences that would dictate a certain outcome. It's freedom of thought by anti-freedom of thought. As if by turning back the clock on any situation you might net different results each time a decision is made. It doesn't even make sense far before you try to explain it in any physiological sense.
Free will is therefore better described as a gut reaction against determinism because the idea that one's actions are going to unfold in one inevitable way based on prior events makes people feel like they're being controlled. But the truth is that the chemical processes in one's brain are who one is and that their determinism isn't equivalent to one being controlled. To put it in layman's terms: you can only make the decisions that you will make because you're you.
10589103
I think its still free will. Because its YOUR choice. And when it comes to fate and destiny, I think its true. But not because of a lack of free will, but because of it. People make certain choices in certain situations. Like how someone would gladly sacrifice themselves to save a loved one. For example, a husband is destined to die under surgery. Because his wife's genetics cause her to have kidney failure, and he gives his kidney for her. His genetics make it so he has a problem with the anesthesia and dies in surgery. This is destined not because of a lack of free will, but because when he is put in that situation, he would never willingly choose a different outcome. Even if he knew he would die, he would still do it for his wife. So I don't think destiny or fate affects your free will, or the knowledge of what will happen. An all powerful being can predict what atoms hitting each other will cause. They can predict how someone will act, how that act affects someone else, and then how that someone else will act. That along with predicting how nature will interact, boom you have destiny. Because you are who you are, and you will make choices based on that. We are creatures of order. So with new information yeah someone might make a different decision, but I don't think that affects their free will. We're just... predictable. Free will is only taken away when it is not YOUR choice to do something. Like if all your memories were stripped away and new ones implanted to make you act a certain way. You no longer have free will at that point. Because your actions and even your thoughts are someone else's choice.
That's a surprisingly well done way of writing about this matter. I don't know about you guys but I believe you go where ever you believe you go after death. Maybe to the golden gates, or to be reincarnated. It's a much more peaceful way to look at life rather than worry about eternal punishment.
I'm always bummed out when I read a human bashing part of a story. I know that's not what this is, this is more a introspection. I just mean like how some non-human is holier than thou and looks down on humans and their barbaric ways or whatever. I'm always just waiting for the human to be like, "Well I mean... War isn't ACTUALLY pointless, it's just really tragic and I think we should find ways to do away with it."
Then when they just keep pushing on how horrible and stupid and backwards humans are they'd just snap and go, "Well you have magic!? You can just do away with every one of your problems with that! Did you guys even evolve? Do you know what evolution is? We didn't have physical gods 'tut-tut'ing us when we screwed up, we mostly just died and put it into a story about how we shouldn't do that thing! We weren't destined for shit! Nearly every creature on the planet that's anywhere close to our size could kill multiple of us, we don't have any fur, we have an extremely dangerous child rearing process that takes NINE MONTHS before we get the most helpless creature on the face of the planet, a babe that won't be able to WALK for most of a year and actually lacks any natural born self preservation instincts found in nearly every other new born creature on the planet. We're not as passive as literal herbivores, sorry. We had to scare off predators with sticks and then plan on how to kill them before they killed us since it was only a matter of time before they stopped being intimidated. We crawled up from pure instinctual, weak, scared beasts into thinking creatures that took over the planet. I'm so sorry that we've made a mess of it, but it hasn't been fucking easy. I guarantee you that we've gotten better though, that despite the horrors and doom, we've actually learned a few lessons. Lessons we keep having to relearn, revisit, reteach to each and every new generation. So maybe your smugness could take a second to realise that not every species was born with a destiny, some stumble face first into life, unable to look back without having their brothers, sisters, sons and daughters swallowed whole by the wait beasts."
Something like that. I was always annoyed at the trope, again I know it's not the focus of this particular Fic. I just don't really know where to complain, and I really feel like more people would have some kind of line when it comes to ragging on humanity. Sure the protag hates all wars, sure he hates politicians, sure he hates school, sure he hates his parents. But what if the aliens just start insulting the human desire for music, "What's up with all your violent-kind and their need to be banging things around?". What about specific music, start insulting hip-hop, jazz, electro-swing, rap, specifically the eye of the tiger or country roads?
I'm just saying it always seems like there's no line. Like the protagonist doesn't see themselves as human... I guess that might be true now that I'm typing it, but no one in the story every picks up on that. It's just like, given that he's ashamed to be human, from both sides.
Well I don't think anyone should ashamed to be human, we've done so much better than a bunch of soy-boy monkeys ever should have. It'll be hard, it's been hard, but there's something impossible, beyond perfection that we're capable of.
10589600
Its always been my personal headcannon that ponies would understand humans provided they knew their own history. Before Celestia and Luna they fought, they warred, and they died uselessly in the mud. Since then there has been peace, so if the pony in question didn't brush up on their past knowledge they might be a bit holier then though but I always thought a quick history lesson would put them in their place.
"accidentally"
10590030
fixed, ty.
10589406
The mind being a product of the brain is also evidence against any kind of afterlife. If your consciousness was separate from your brain and could continue to exist after death, brain damage should not be capable of altering your personality.
I really like this idea. It basically encapsulates my own feelings that I was too afraid to express for fear of being branded a hitler-apologist or something. I just like the idea that everyone is good deep down and is capable of growing. If not in this life then the next one at least. That said, I'm guessing in this story Tartarus is a physical place you could walk to.
10590140
In my headcannon getting locked in tartarus is never a life sentance.
10590120
Well, I think that that depends on what branch of Metaphysics one subscribes to.
I like this. This feels wholesome.
I love this interpretation of the afterlife and punishment for wrongdoing. It really does seem to be the most fair way of meting out justice. But how do you allot blame, or take into consideration the fact that some people are hurt more easily than others? Or even take forgiveness by the wronged party into account?
For instance, an soldier fatally wounds an enemy combatant and moves on. The dying soldier is suffering greatly bleeding out, and is filled with regrets and fears for his family that he is leaving behind. He is objectively suffering far more than he would have been had he just died instantly from a shot to the head. Should the man who killed him also suffer more in the afterlife because he didn't manage a killshot, even when the suffering was never his intention?
Or how much blame does a soldier take for his actions when there is an entire chain of command in the army telling him exactly what to do? Does the soldier take maybe half of the blame, and his commanding officer, general, commander-in-chief, etc take percentages too? Maybe every single person gets the entire blame for that death, making it into about 6 deaths total.
Or lets say that there is a crazy homeless person starving on a corner in the New York winter. He asks every person who walks by for a little cash and no one gives any to him, and then he dies of exposure. Is every single person that walked by supposed to feel that bit of suffering that he felt, even if they weren't fully responsible?
I genuinely find this story's idea of punishment for wrongdoings to be one of the most fair, but figuring out allocation of blame, is really messy business.
10590513
Which is why I always imagine some sort of omniscient force being the one to weight the scales of justice.
10589407
I sort of see what you mean, but the kind of free will you're describing is what philosophers just refer to as your 'will'.
Free will is defined as the ability to make different choices when put in the same circumstance. 'Will' is defined as simply the ability to make a choice.
Maybe you just disagree with the definition or label or whatever, but that's what people normally by the term.
10589103
Determinism is kind of a sure thing in my opinion, whether or not you operate on a naturalistic worldview.
10589406
Except that unlike a machine new neural pathways are being made everyday in the human brain. The minute chemistry varies day to day hour to hour, saying something like you'll always make that same choice is also BS if you include the scientific understanding that the brain and thus your conscious are always in flux. So, if you're really going that route about you making decisions because you're you fails, because we understand so little about how 'consciousness' actually works. You getting up from bed on the left side rather than you usually getting up from the right, or having a fan on in your sleep or not are just a myriad of tiny stimuli that might just make you do a completely different life altering thing the next day.
10590889
The state that your brain shifts into will be determined by the continuum of previous brain states as well as external stimuli from the real world. The real world is governed by the same deterministic physics and chemistry. When I was saying one would make the same choices I meant it as part of a thought experiment where either time is reverted or exact duplicate universes are made to repeat any given scenario without deviations, where one would then observe the same exact outcomes. The fact that the brain can change itself in a structured manner in response to external stimuli in no way precludes determinism, in fact it only reinforces the idea because those changes would then have to be explained by chemistry.
That was a really uplifting story, thank you for sharing it ^^
10589406
Oh look, it's one of THOSE people!
Ahem: quantum uncertainty principle.
The fluctuations at the quantum level, which it is quite clear many of the ion channels operate on, ARE NOT DETERMINISTIC. They are probabilistic.
Which means, even the act of observing them can alter the outcome of their channel activity. The introduction of even the slightest additional energy into the system completely changes what will happen.
In other words: free will.
10590513 Was the killed soldier part of the Billy Cult, or not?
Because if he served Lord Nuxanor, then he must be mourned and the offender BANISHED TO THE DEEPEST LEVELS OF INTERNET HELL (Only Fans).
But if not, then FEH! Who cares! MOVING ON!!
10590746
the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion. Thats the definition of free will. Unrestricted choice. I mean that when put into a certain circumstance, a person will make a choice, and will probably make the same choice in the same circumstances. They CAN make a different choice, but they wont because of who they are and their beliefs. Free will is the ability to make a decision without the influence of something else. Im saying that fate and destiny aren't something that influences someone, but something that gets influenced by people. Its a prediction based on what people will do and how they will react. Not that they can't react a different way, just that they wont. Because they have free will and will make that choice of their own volition.
10592978
"Of course the introduction of the observer must not be misunderstood to imply that some kind of subjective features are to be brought into the description of nature. The observer has, rather, only the function of registering decisions, i.e., processes in space and time, and it does not matter whether the observer is an apparatus or a human being; but the registration, i.e., the transition from the "possible" to the "actual," is absolutely necessary here and cannot be omitted from the interpretation of quantum theory." - Werner Heisenberg, Physics and Philosophy, p. 137
10593564
They CAN make a different choice, but they wont because of who they are and their beliefs.
No what I’m saying is that they are genuinely incapable of making a different choice in the same circumstances.
It’s not that they CAN make one, but choose not to. It’s that they CANNOT make a different choice given the same circumstance.
10594159
??????? I'm saying that fate and destiny don't go against free will because fate and destiny are just the choices people are most likely to make. Then you said that's not free will, so I explained how it was. Because they still CAN make different choices, they just don't. And now you're saying they cannot for some reason? Like, out of nowhere too. At no point did you say anything like this, so putting it as an explanation is false. I am straight telling you that in my theory, people can but choose not too. And you said no because you dont think people can make choices after I told you they can. That... that makes no sense. First was saying I got the definition wrong, now you're saying its not free will because people can't make choices in someone else's theory I guess?
10594847
"And you said no because you don't think people can make choices after I told you they can".
Yup, that's what I said. I believe people can't make choices, that's what I said!
10595371
What does that have to do with what I wrote? You said I was wrong about what free will is, then out of nowhere said you dont think people have free will? I dont... what? So if im looking at this right, I wrote what I think about destiny and free will, you disagree that people have free will and came up with nonsense to disparage it, then when I corrected you you said, out of nowhere I might add, that people don't have the ability to make choices, and with this confirmed that is what you meant. If you want to state your opinion about something just say it, dont do this weird nonsense. Next time just say you dont agree that people can make choices instead of trying to say I'm against the definition of free will.
10595411
This has gone on long enough. Take any further discussion to your dms. Any further comments will be deleted.
10593646 That's incorrect from a physics perspective.
OBSERVATIONS ADD ENERGY TO THE SYSTEM, and therefore alter the outcome. This is very well demonstrated.
10595461
Observation not an observer in a colloquial sense. The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle doesn't imply free will as according to Heisenberg.
10595738 In the brain, at any given moment, there are QUADRILLIONS of probabilistic reactions taking place.
Every single input alters them, every minute mote of thought changes the dynamics of billions of them and adds just a nudge of energy towards one state or another and initiates whole cascades that even the most knowledgeable neurologists in the world still struggle to interpret. It's so far beyond what a computer processor does, even quantum computing is child's play to comprehend.
If it is not absolutely free will, then it's as close to it as can possibly be achieved by a being of matter.
Seeing as every pasty green skinned... Thing is nothing but a souless husk with no brains or hearts to speak of. They just disappear into the void.
Not sorry. That's what came to mind when I read the description.
Man what the fuck I'd rather follow this religion that someone created out of a fanfic than any religion we have now. Whoever invented the concept of eternal damnation is a tyrannical fool.
Please feel free to elaborate on the world building if you find the time. It touches areas most writers tend to ignore.
11010790
Fair, though this was merely a warm up and was written in one sititng without planning.