16: Know Thy Friend, Understand Thy Foe
'If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.'
- Sun Tzu
"Ground control, this is Blackbird-1, reconnaissance mission has been successful, requesting permission to land."
"Affirmative Blackbird, Ground control reads you loud and clear, opening hangar access now. Welcome back."
The massive door below his jet creaked open slowly, revealing the hangar as he began the jet's slow descent in VTOL mode. The engines of the V-45 Geisthawk cooled as it touched down onto the extended metal surface of bay 36's landing platform, it's wings folding inward as the platform pulled back into the bay and the door sealed behind it. The cockpit's door hissed and slowly opened as Jameson removed the oxygen mask from his lower face and lifted his helmets visor.
"Alright Ares, see you later."
"You as well, pilot." Jameson nodded before stepping out and sliding down the aircraft's extended ladder just as several robotic arms activated and began inspecting the aircraft for any form of damage. As he walked out of the bay, a trolley stopped directly in front of him, allowing him to step on as it quickly took off along the service road. Still wearing his helmet, he received an incoming comm link as he quickly lowered his visor to see the display and answered it, the video screen displaying commander Wallace. "Jameson speaking, sir."
"First of all, for your first flight in a while you did a damn good job. Were receiving all the data from your flight AI now. And I can certainly say we... Don't exactly know what were lookin' at, nor do we like it. Gonna need you to report for debrief in the special operations center."
"Roger sir, I'm on my way." As the trolley pulled up to the elevator Jameson stepped off and waved to the trolly before he pulled out his ID card and verified his clearance for accessing the lower levels before selecting the high security section, allowing the elevator to descend downwards as he contemplated in silence about what he saw. His thoughts were interrupted when the elevator abruptly stopped a couple levels before it's destination floor, the doors opened as six men covered in combat gear stepped inside. Jameson looked to see a patch with the symbol of Task Force Sentinel on their shoulders, as he whistled. "You boys the ones who went up top?"
"That's correct." Foley said, retracting his visor as he nodded to Jameson. "Heard you got to fly your own little recon mission up there. How'd it go?"
"Pretty well, got called down here to discuss the data I got. Guessing you're coming down for the same reason?"
"Affirmative, command wants us to debrief."
"Well, let's not keep 'em waiting." He said as the elevator continued down before reaching it's proper destination floor, the doors opening and allowing the men to exit the elevator and walk through the walls, glass windows on both sides looking into large controls and operations centers. Ahead of them was the command center, the door scanning them and opening with a click as they stepped inside. The door sealed behind them as the men took their seats around the large meeting table, a holographic display activating and displaying Bagley's symbol.
"Good day gentlemen, good to see you have all come back from your recon operations alive and well. As you have no doubt surmised, the point of this meeting is to discuss the information gathered."
"Quick question, buuut... isn't this something that high command should be discussing by themselves?" Dunn asked in a confusing tone as commander Wallace cleared his throat to announce his presence.
"Correct, in standard situation new intel would be examined by both high command and in the intelligence division. But due to this... Unique case, we figured we should bring in those who experienced it first hand to help get a better account of things. Now then, before we start I'd like to let you all know that what we are about discuss here never leaves this room and never exits your mouth until it is officially de-classified. Am I clear?" A series of affirmatives from the group and Wallace nodded. "Alright, let's begin." He turned to the large screen at the other end of the room, as it began displaying photos and readings taken by Rover and Ares.
The first photos featured plants and trees within a bright green forest, as well as small rabbits, insects, and other animals being recorded and documented. Birds were seen among the backdrop of a cloudy blue sky, as key objects and entities in the photos were highlighted and analyzed before being identified. "First of all, we have confirmed several native Earth species survived the mage comet's affects, meaning that the gene vaults may potentially be outdated and are better off being converted into zoo's. Of course, this confirms the surface is not just habitable but also very much hospitable to life." Wallace said as oxygen readings taken from the surface in the present and a million years ago were compared on screen.
"Honestly, seems like there's more oxygen then there was before. Hydrogen levels look a bit high though, but that shouldn't be a problem seeing as Jameson could fly just fine, ain't that right?" Nigel said, turning to Jameson who furrowed his brow.
"Yeah, and that probably explains that bit where Ares had to make a couple adjustments to the fuel control to keep it stable. Course I don't know much about atmospherics so you'd need to ask him. Anyways, felt like generally smooth flying, though uhh... I'm guessing you'll wanna show them... You know, the thing?" Jameson said as the other men in the room looked to him confused while Wallace nodded.
"You are correct." Turning back to the screen it's view shifted, causing the men to reel back in shock and confusion as the sight of a massive dragon draped in crimson scales with burning eyes glaring forward as it soared through the air. "As you can Sentinel, what you encountered on the surface may very well be the norm up there, if this 'dragon' is any indication."
"God almighty, that things the size of a Nuremberg class cruiser! How is something like that even flying?" Blackburn said in an exasperated tone, rubbing his eyes in astonishment while Nigel closely inspected the creature before making an assessment.
"My best guess? Excellent aerodynamics, aerial maneuvering, and weight control mastered over both extensive evolutionary growth and a long lifespan. Course, it's just a theory of mine, we'd need to get better data to know for sure."
"The damn things got damn strong wings, Ares said that each flap was enough force to knock a plane out of the sky if they didn't have an omni-directional thruster system installed. So I think it's safe to say we should avoid dogfighting them, even if it would be cool as hell." Jameson said, visions of his jet screaming through the sky as he was pursued by a mighty dragon spewing flame from it's mouth, but his daydream was interrupted when Tachanka let out a chuckle.
"All these fantasy creatures, centaurs, pegasi, dragons, we truly woke up in a fantasy novel world. Though from their perspective, we would be science fiction aliens, coming up from ground like Pacific Rim."
"Fuck I love that movie. Didn't it have a sequel?" Dunn said, only to be met with deafening silence before Foley patted him on the shoulder.
"We don't talk about the sequel." Dunn simply nodded as Wallace went ahead and changed the projection again, this time showing the centaur known as 'Tirek' and pegasi known as 'Cozy Glow' posing in front of a camera, with Tireks stance being serious and authoritative even in his thin and weak state, while Cozy simply had an innocent smile on her face. Wallace grimaced gazing into her eyes though, remembering going over the footage and seeing her at times predatory gaze. Definitely something to watch out for.
"Now then, moving on. As we can see here, these two creatures are the ones brought from the surface by Blackout Squadron, out of an underground prison referred to as 'Tartarus'. Conveniently, as if the underworld analogy wasn't enough, they also encountered and befriended none other than Cerberus." A second image showed Tachanka throwing a ball into the back of a truck so Cerberus would go inside for transport.
"I'm not even gonna ask how he did, cause he's Russian." Jameson groaned through the palm currently in contact with his face as Tachanka let out a hearty laugh.
"We tame polar bears, ol Cerby is just big three headed dog bear. Granted he could easily eat me alive, but he good boy."
"Anyways, while we have yet to conduct a proper interview, we have already deduced that these two creatures were placed in prison for a reason, and Cerberus acted as their warden. By removing them, we may have caused a potential issue for whoever put them there, or created the prison. Judging by the newly dubbed 'Bugbear' that RnD's been tearing their hair out over, it's safe to say only extremely dangerous entities are contained there." Wallace said, another image of the Bugbear appearing, it's hostile and predatory gaze staring into the camera. The next image showed that same gaze, lifeless and empty as a hole hollowed out it's head and left it dead on the ground.
"Damn, you guys didn't give it a chance did you?"
"Course we didn't, that thing coulda' easily flatlined us. The other guys shot it up while I lined up my sights, gave it a lobotomy via bullet." Blackburn with a sense of pride in his tone. "You think this makes me a big game hunter?"
"Probably more like a cryptid hunter. Now then, we basically know all about this, so why don't you go ahead and tell us the new stuff sir, like the data Jameson collected." Everybody easily noticed how Wallace tensed up, his eyes darting to Jameson who shared the same worried look. The old general simply nodded, before switching the image to display several towns and cities, including one built into the side of a mountain.
"Dang, these 'ponies' got some mighty fine architecture, look at the size of that castle!" Dunn said, marvelling at the images which were zoomed in and enhanced via editing. "Wait, how do they build with hooves?"
"That's a question that will wait until later... But now, it's likely time you're shown something that not even the National leaders know, at least not yet."
"Why haven't they been informed sir? Aren't they higher priority?" Foley said in a confused and slightly worried tone.
"Well, under normal circumstances, yes... But these aren't normal circumstances." With a single press and a few seconds of letting the photo sink in, Dunn was the first to speak.
"The fuck!?! Those are people!"
Ramirez let out an audible sigh from behind his helmet. Why couldn't anything be simple?
The room was a replication of an old 1980's home, with wooden flooring and tan walls with a warm orange light illuminating the room as Keifer sat on a comfortable cushioned seat while Tirek sat on the couch to ensure his weight and size was supported, and Cozy Glow leaned in a bean bag while poking at in wonder. Keifer then looked down to the fine wooden table, a recorder system set on top of it as he pressed the red symbol of a play button and it began recording.
"This, is Doctor Heinrich Keifer, starting first contact interview log 001. Subjects have been identified as 'Cozy Glow' and 'Tirek', with entities being identified as pegasus and centaur respectively." Keifer said as he spoke into the recording microphone attached to the table, leaving said pegasus and centaur confused.
"Uh... Why are you speaking into that weird foam thing?"
"Oh zis? It is a microphone, I am using it to record our conversation for analysis and archiving."
"The heck does 'record' mean?"
"Essentially, it allows for the saving of any form of physical media to play later, like music or videos, which are digital recordings taken of the real world. For instance, that camera right there is recording us." Keifer said as he gestured to the spherical camera mounted to the ceiling. In truth it was only one of the many cameras in the room, the rest carefully hidden.
"Oh that's neat! Is it recording this?" Cozy Glow said as she used her hooves to stretch out her mouth and make a strange face, which made Keifer form a light smile on his face.
"Yes, including that." He silently thought about what could possibly justify this child being locked away in a subterranean prison. But considering the squad's suspicion and her clearly fake personality, it was definitely something to ask about. "Now then, how about we start with a simple series of back and forth questions. I shall ask you something, then you shall ask me, and then we loop from there. How does that sound?"
"Pleasing, although I believe you will find my questions to be odd from your standpoint."
"I expect the same to occur from your perspective. Now then, the first question is simple, what other creatures exist upon the surface besides centaurs and pegasi?"
"Oh oh, I know this one!" Cozy Glow excitedly raised her hoof before speaking. "There's the three pony tribes of earth ponies, unicorns, and pegasi like me, as well as the lesser known tribe of thestrals or bat ponies. Then we got griffons, zebras, kirin, dragons, minotaurs, centaurs like him, yetis, penguins, polar bears, and... Am I forgetting anything?"
"Do not ask me, I do not concern myself with creatures that do not bear magic."
"Don't Kirins have magic?"
"Yes, but let me tell you this. I once faced a Nirik. And it was the last time I will ever face one. Not even the Princesses could match their rage in that state." Keifer was seen taking several notes. "Now then, do you mind if I ask my own?"
"But of course my friend, go ahead."
"Very well. Where exactly, are we?"
"Ah, that is easy. This is an interview room within the high security section of this facilities research sector. This facility is none other than Geneva, capital of the United Nations Solar Alliance. And in case you are wondering, yes, we are underground."
"I see... I believe I know what my next question is, but you may ask first."
"Thank you. Now then, how exactly did you end up in your containment cells within that prison referred to as Tartarus?" The centaur and pegasus visibly winced, with Tirek gaining an almost furious expression on his face while Cozy did her best to conceal one of annoyance.
"That is a simple question, yet it requires from us a complicated answer."
"I have time to listen. Please go ahead."
"Of course... You see, us centaur's use magic as a form of sustenance that helps keep us alive and powerful. In order to survive we must drain this magic from other creatures, mostly those rich in natural magic like ponies. As such, long ago, I set out on a warpath to drain all of Equestria's magic and return to my homeland with enough magic to fuel my kind for eternity. But those foolish and inconsiderate princesses foiled me and sealed me away for a thousand years. I am fortunate that Tartarus produces enough ambient magic to keep me alive. At one time that fool Discord released me, and I even managed to betray him before that damned princess of friendship banished me to Tartarus' depths once more." Keifer seemed more and more intrigued as wonder crossed his face, his grey beard twitching upwards with his grin at the wealth of information being given to him as he wrote it all down on his notepad.
"Fascinating... And how did you end up there child?"
"Well, I may or may not have tried to... Become empress of equestria and force everyone to be my friend? I don't really know how to explain I did it, but I would've gotten away with it too, if it weren't for those dang elements!" Cozy Glow's face twisted into an even more annoyed expression as her tone slowly lost it's innocence.
"I... See. So you attempted to conquer an entire nation just to force everyone to be your friend?" Cozy perked up again right after that question.
"Yep! I always want to make new friends, so I figured if I ruled over everypony they'd all be my friend!"
"... I cannot say I see the logic in that, but it is a fair viewpoint. Now then, what is your question?"
"Oh, easy, why the hay are there so many humans down here? Aren't you all supposed to be back on the surface?" Both Tirek and Cozy Glow noticed how Keifer froze at that statement, watching as he fiddled with the pen in his hand far more frequently.
"... Come again?" Cozy Glow went to comment but Tirek stepped in.
"I believe what my companion here means to ask is how humanity has managed to conceal such advanced technological prowess from us, and build entire cities and nations under the surface of Equestria without a single soul noticing. I am actually wondering that as well."
"Hmm... My next question is very clear now." He said, taking another few moments to process the information before continuing. "Well I suppose I must explain. First, we must go back a million years." That statement alone left the two villainous creatures confused. "In what we are calling the pre-comet era, or PC, our civilization was thriving in all aspects. We had colonies and outposts throughout the solar system, we had united the worlds nations, and our technology and societal advancement continued to improve at a rapid rate. Granted, I am greatly simplifying things as I am less informed on the UNSA's socio-economic history, and you'd be better off reading about it. Then, during new years day in 2200, I and my team working at the curiosity stellar research array discovered a massive comet, identified as the mage comet, emitting a tremendous amount of unique energy with powerful properties. We call it the mage comet, but what we soon realized, was that it was on a path to pass through the solar system, and it's unstable energy would easily be dispersed across the surface of all planets, cleansing them of all life. So, to ensure our survival, we constructed underground city facilities to ensure our species would live. On the day the comet's arrival was due, we entered cryogenic stasis, let it pass by, and waited a million years for the world to heal before we woke up, and proceeded to prepare to retake our home. Of course, we were not expecting home, to be already taken."
Cozy Glows jaw would likely be on the ground if it weren't attached to her face, and even Tirek's eyes were wide as they both processed the information. "I see... So in reality you are ancient and highly advanced progenitors of a bygone era. That explains the various ruins of cities scattered throughout the world."
"Hmmm, so some of our cities managed to survive the cleansing effects... Either that, or we severely overestimated the comet's effects... That will have to be determined when we check the data gathered by the aerial reconnaissance mission." Cozy Glow appeared to become confused with that statement.
"Wait, you have pegasi here?"
"I am not sure how you inferred that, but we do not."
"But you mentioned flying... Do you have griffons? Hippogriffs maybe?"
"Actually neither of those, we instead utilize what is known as a 'Plane' or 'Jet'." Cozy Glow's face showed both intrigue and yet more confusion. "If my superiors are willing I can show you one, along with some of our technology."
"I see... Well, I am definitely interested in your ability to simulate flight. But now, I suppose you have your penultimate question to ask."
"Indeed... I will put it simply, what do you mean by 'supposed to be on the surface', miss Cozy Glow?"
"Well, there's humans all over the world, not a lot of them, but there's still a good few. They're considered the best creatures to use for manual labor and are pretty smart, so most of the time they flock to more advanced nations to use their big brains and fancy hands for work. Heard they're even equal citizens in the Griffonian empire and Hippogriffia."
"I... See. So, somehow humanity has survived the comet?"
"I don't see any other explanation, do you?"
"... I do not, no. This is... This is a surprising revelation, and I do hope you will be fine to continue this at another time. Bagley will help escort you to your quarters." Keifer said, standing up with his hands visibly shaking as he walked to the wooden door, which unlike an actual wooden door opened sideways as he stepped through, leaving the two creatures confused.
"... Who's Bagley?"
"That would be me." A british voice spoke as Cozy Glow managed to defy physics by leaping into the ceiling out of fright while Tirek appeared surprised at the blue hologram now present over the table. "It is a pleasure to meet you. Now then, your quarters have been made ready, and I will happily guide you there."
"But... You're a table." Cozy Glow stated bluntly as she hovered down.
"Oh no, I am simply using the table's built-in projector to give myself a form for you to observe and speak to. I am in fact an artificial intelligence, and I am in fact all around you."
"... Coooooooool." Cozy Glow said with child like wonder.
"This is Rhino-1, additional hostile forces moving from the southern side! Providing covering fire, watch the flanks!" The roar of the APC's main turret echoed through the air as each thunderous bang resulted in either a burst of dust and a crater in the sand, or a massive hole blown through one of the unidentified assailants. Rifle fire rang out from inside some of the huts as Amorn and Unanthi had moved inside, using an open window as a point to fire from cover as their bullets easily penetrated the primitive armor of the enemy. Carlos was outside as he and another squad moved to cover zebra civilians as they rushed to take cover near the APC's.
Cresting over the dunes the MCCV and it's humvees came into view, as the armored cars came barreling through the sand with one outright ramming a hostile right in the back, caving in their spine from the force and sending them flying back as a soldier manned the LMG turret on the roof and quickly opened fire, as the already dwindling number of hostiles rushed for cover from the thunder of guns. The MCCV itself came to a stop at the top of the dune, and due to it lacking any weapons for combat it instead opened it's roof compartment and launched a swarm of drones, the almost silent whirring barely heard over the gunfire as the few surviving raider's looked up to see the swarm of what they believed were mechanical birds swarm around them, marking them as one soldier clicked a shock grenade, throwing it between the remaining enemies and delivering an intense shock, causing them to roar before dropping to the ground unconscious.
"Secure the area, make sure there's no stragglers!" Amorn yelled, troops scattering around the village as they found zebras still in hiding while the drones conducted a sweep of both the village and surrounding desert, confirming no remaining hostiles were present as they began to collect data. Amorn and Unanthi regrouped with Carlos as they made their way back to the vehicles, watching as the zebras tried to speak with the humans, as some spoke English while others spoke what seemed like a mix of different African languages. Medic's were left unsure of how to tend to the wounds of the equines with limited anatomical knowledge, electing to simply apply bandages and splints until they could requisition a mobile medical center. Surprisingly, there were zero casualties among the zebras and friendly SATO forces.
However, after doing a tally of the corpses, around thirty of what the troops were dubbing 'yetis' were found and piled up, one or two being loaded onto one of the APC's to take back for examination. The yeti prisoners from the shock grenade were still unconscious, currently being held in one of the huts under guard by troops. Amorn and his comrades looked around at the damaged village, looking at the scorched buildings and smoldering wreckage.
"I must say... This is... Unexpected. Within the first thirty minutes of arriving here, we have already repelled an attack by these... Yetis. It is certainly a unique situation we find ourselves in." Amorn said while glancing off towards the zebras, all gathered in the towns square as they discussed amongst themselves with couples and families embracing each other after being separated in the chaos. The sight made him smile.
"Indeed, we arrive in time to save the village and protect these zebras like heroes from a story book. I cannot help but wonder however... What exactly... Are these creatures? They speak both the language of us Africans, and English. And yet, they appear almost exactly like the zebras from before the comet, except far shorter and more... Expressive? Is that word?" Unanthi said as he used his helmet's zoom function to enhance on a zebra's face, which was currently scrunched up in disgust as it stared at the bloody mess of a yeti corpse in front of it. It then proceeded to sigh and spit on the corpse before moving.
"Yep, that's the word. Least I think so, I ain't your fuckin' english teacher. Anyways, command is gonna frickin' love this." Carlos said, snickering to himself still trying to process it all as he took a seat on the sand below him.
"Indeed, I have no doubt those in the MCCV are already having a heated discussion with HCOM."
And Amorn was correct, as inside the command center of the MCCV the expeditions head officer, a synth known as AC-621 faced the video screen displaying Commander Wallace's face.
"So then, it's confirmed that were not just dealing with walking talking fantasy creatures, but regular creatures have decided to start speaking as well. God... Well 621, you made the correct call in intervening and defending the civilians. We can confirm there are potentially hostile forces on the surface, and we need to start making battle plans if we get dragged into a war cause of this raid. For now you'll be using the village as a base, and be sure send back those yeti prisoners and corpses back to us so the science team can poke at 'em for a bit. While I'm busy sorting this shitstorm out with the top brass, your welcome to try and talk with the locals."
621 simply nodded and spoke in an almost monotone voice. "Understood sir." Wallace nodded and disconnected the vid-call as 621 approached the cockpit, opening the door as he moved to look outside the main window towards the village. The two drivers stared ahead as well, keeping their instruments in check as one snickered.
"One hell of a rude awakening, eh boss?"
"You'd be right Jenkins. I feel like I'm still half-asleep. At least, I was until this mess happened. Now then, move us down there and commence expansion, were gonna set camp."
"Roger roger." 621 simply glared with his singular red eye, causing Jenkins to raise his hands defensively. "Hey, it's affectionate!"
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What is it always a Hearts of Iron 4 mod? Why not Hearts of Iron 5 or even the previous three games?
11829806
there is no HOI3. if you believe there is a HOI 3, it is because you have consumed far too much misinformation.
A new chapter? That came out just after I left the gates of my college?!??
Nice to see a new chapter! Do you think there could be a map of the world with the outlines of the Pre-comet continents within the modern post-comet continents? Can't wait to see how Equestria reacts to the UNSA.
Was 621 inspired by the AC6 621
Welcome back! And what a great chapter to return with.
It's great to get a new chapter to read!
Scootaloo will be very happy to see one and possibly fly one
Star Wars reference I love it
And welcome back my friend can’t wait for more
Indeed
Always a pleasure to see a new chapter.
11829807
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearts_of_Iron_III
Given the preference for future technology I will say this. If you decide to go more hard sci-fi/realistic in this fic, well, as much as you can in a story like this. Dogfighting would've been obsolete for decades by now, even over a century potentially as it's just easier and more effective to fire a missile from beyond visual range, hence why the F/A-22a Raptor doesn't have guns. It's just more effective to shoot something down with a missile.
Then again, the UNSA has intersolar warships and stuff so perhaps not anymore.
11830447
MISINFORMATION SPREADER DETECTED! MR ELECTRIC KILL :3 THIS BOZO
Ah yes, humans, fuck yeah!
Question, in forms of tanks, what type we got???????
We got current new gen like KF-51, Abrams X, T-90M? Or much more modern non existent tanks?
11830621
F22 raptor doesn't have guns?
Where the hell did you hear that? (actually curious)
It's undisputed in dogfights (when it doesnt hold back, wargames dont count because pilots hold back and handicap themselves) and most definitely has guns.
11839220
Huh, strange, literally every place I read or heard about the Raptor for years only mentioned its missile armament, but no, it has a 20mm vulcan chaingun...
For ground attack purposes only, hence the A part of the F/A designation.
But looking at it, it's the only gun and it's fixed forward.
But yeah, dogfighting is obsolete because sure, the Raptor has a gun. But why use a gun when you can just shoot something down with a missile beyond visual range, especially as a stealth aircraft, and being fielded by the only nation to successfully create a stealth aircraft. Same goes with ground targets, hence why we still have the A-10 despite its abysmal performance and history with its gun, it can carry a bunch of missiles for ground attack.
Missiles are OP, they can be configured to do what tank shells, bombs, and bullets do, but you just need to fire one of them and because it's a smart weapon by definition, it should hit its target, at least with suitable training to use it for such a role.
11839211
Well, definetly a lot more modern and advanced tanks, but basically picture the Abrams X or any other NATO tank cracked up on future tech. I would find images, but I learned my lesson from chapter 5 about spewing out technical information like I'm an undergraduate engineer.
11839693
Hm...
how about ai generation? its kinda shit and looks goofy but it might work idk
or actually just take a look at a game on roblox called neo warfare x and look at the futuristic mbt
11839366
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvJrHwvrYMk
dogfighting not obsolete, watch some other of his content, he does this type of stuff
11839895
Well for starter, that's a simulator, not an actual scenario. And even if he does have combat experience (I'm on a time crunch so I can't watch fully right now, so I can't tell), than what counts as a "dogfight" isn't guns.
It's literally just shooting them down with missiles beyond visual range. It happened in the Iraq-Iran war, it happened in Desert Storm, it happened in Bush's invasion of Iraq, it's happening in Ukraine, it happened in Serbia during the Yugoslav wars.
The dogfight, while majestic and noble in propaganda, is dead.
Because missiles have made them obsolete, as in every single scenario, it is better to kill with a missile from afar and hidden, than to get in visual range and begin swerving around at high speeds hoping to hit your opponent with a gun.
Yes, the F-22 and F-35 have guns, but only because they were both made with the specification to be able to perform close air support tasks. The F-22 as a secondary role, the F-35 as its main role.
11840748
Guns are not obsolete and never will be, which is why every single plane currently (excluding bombers and non-militaries) is equipped with one. They aren't obsolete. If they were, then we wouldn't care about them.
Also, with the F22, which is probably on stealth missions where it must not be seen, firing a Fox 3 at long ranges instantly alerts everyone and their mother of the lock and you will be found and killed. Guns and Fox 2 are not obsolete. At all.
11844333
I never said guns were obsolete, I said the dogfight was. There's a reason the Navy is testing railguns.
Also, you're wrong about the missiles too, while yes, you can get a lock on a target when they launch missiles, it is possible for them to be stealthed.
This can be seen in multiple events. 2 for example are the The Iran-Iraq War and the NATO bombing of Serbia.
In the Iran-Iraq war, there was a period where the Iraqi Air Force refused to fly, because all there aircraft were suddenly exploding mid-air. It was later found out that they were actually getting shot down by Iranian F-14 Tomcats. Who were firing at them from beyond-horizon, aka, beyond visual range.
The other example is the NATO bombing of Serbia, the one where famously Serbia shot down a single F117, out of dozens, only one time ever getting a lock on one, even while they were firing. And promptly made it a point of national pride and identity equivalent to the British winning their first world cup against Germany.
This is because of how missile launches work. It's all computers, that red button the pilots press merely gives the computer permission to drop doors, fire, and close doors with such speed that all that can happen within less than a second. Which is what happened during the night Serbia shot down the F117. And all of this information is stuff released after the war or it just makes sense because that's what everyone's been doing and still is.
When Serbia was getting bombed, they had spies watching any nearby airfield they could as a forewarning. As such on that night they knew that only 4 F117's launched, no twin seater aircraft which were known for destroying any radar installation they found, typically through the 2 radar sweeps the Serbians did before shutting them off. And after repeated tracking of patterns, knew that the F117's were going to use the same route they had been using the previous weeks.
Thus when a one Colonel Zoltán Dani decided to defy protocol and do a 3rd radar sweep, knowing no twin seater aircraft was rapidly approaching his location to blow him and the installation sky high, he got a ping. Because his radar hit the opened missile door of the F117 at the exact moment where it was at its most vulnerable. He didn't detect the missile, he didn't detect the doors opening or closing, he detected the door when it was already opened. And then it was shot down.
This promptly never happened again, as it was a chance so small to occur you'd probably be more likely to win a lottery.
And as Stealth technology has improved and made up for these shortcomings, this chance has only decreased significantly.
So no, they won't detect the missile, because even the missile is stealthed.
Man this story is just getting worse and worse I preferred the other version of this by the other author shame he was a lazy ass and didn't finish it.