Twilight Sparkle always said the fate of Equestria rested on her being friends with the other Element bearers. She didn't know just how right she was.
In the Ashlands timeline, Starlight Glimmer, Twilight Sparkle and Spike find one of its few survivors. From there, an uncomfortable truth is revealed that will leave Twilight reeling.
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Dear Celestia that was amazing! And that ending!
I cannot object to any of this headcanon. Not even to Twilight turning against cutie marks after feeling like Shining Armor abandoned her. Well knitted!
This story hit me. Hit me right in the feels.
7030715 Yep.
You know, I do several rereads of a lot of my work after I post it to catch errors, both in basic English and in logical/continuity errors, add in new lines wholesale and edit other ones, and it's only just now that I realised Pinkie still mentions Spike at the end even though she shouldn't know him. But it's Pinkie so I can probably brush that off as 'Pinkie being Pinkie'.
Actually, didn't Twilight cause most of the changes? I mean, sure, Sombra goes on Starlights account, but the rest only existed because Twilight did the same thing Starlight did: Travel back in time because she can't accept the present.
Sure, Starlight destroyed a timeline, but Twilight crushed like five...
If we are talking total bodycount (Zecora said "it is us who should not be", implying changing a timeline annihilates the previous one), Twilight just takes the cake.
Well, look at the bright side, Spike can try and woo Rarity again with some knowledge on what she likes and dislikes...well, provided he can get over the trauma first.
The phrase is "more glad".
"fighting"
The "everyone worst than the last" line also bugged me, but, eigh, I chalked it up to emotional exhaustion making her give into hyperbole to try and make a point.
I like the think the Dustbowl Equrestia was caused by Evil!Celestia slash Corona Blaze but Powermad!Sparkle is also a good fit.
I caught the number of thrones but then Pinkie mentioned Spike so the last line still caught me off guard. But, well. Pinkie.
I like to think the sixth throne has Moondancer's mark on it instead of Starlight’s.
7077823
No, because each time Twilight went back, it was Starlight who either interfered with Rainbow or baited Twilight into accidentally interfering with Rainbow.
Eh, not a big fan of characters baselessly theorizing for some two-thousand words, especially with a bunch of psuedo-science and only a few minutes of observations to work off of.
I should also point out for Twilight's sake about how she didn't understand why there was apparently another Twilight in this timeline while she never saw one before in any of the others... Twilight was born and raised in Canterlot. Why would she be living in Ponyville in any significant numbers of alternate realities? Like yeah, it's possible but not likely.
Twilight should know that the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. Seriously, that's toddler reasoning right there.
"Oh, I don't see myself here, so she surely doesn't exist!"
*Spike hides face behind hands*
"Spike? Where'd you go?"
*Uncovers face and gives his mentally challenged friend a dry look*
"Ah! Don't go appearing out of nowhere on me like that, Spike! You gave me the spooks!"
7081764 True, but that doesn't matter: Twilight was never forced to follow Starlight beyond the first time, she did so on her own volition, knowing what she erases in the process. Like I said: Sombra was Starlights fault, ad hers alone, however, every other future came into being of Twilight not accepting the previous one. If she would have accepted the Sombra-Reality, the Chrysalis one would never have come to pass, due to Twilight not returing to the past to stop Starlight again.
It was Starlight who interfered with Rainbow over and over again, but it was Twilight who provided her the opportunity. In fact, since only Twilight continues to timetravel beyond the first time (and the final two, if you want to actually count them), Starlight cannot be blamed to have "interfered" beyond the first time at all, given that her intercepting Rainbow became the "normal" past for the Sombra and consequent timelines, as in she is now not a traveller through time for all pasts after the first, but a part of the timeline itself, with her reaction only appearing so knowing and taunting not because she has traveled multiple times as well, but because of her knowledge of Twilight as a timetraveler, making her no more at fault than Fluttershy making up with the bullies or Rainbow fleeing from Twilight, as she was acting out her part in the Sombra+ timeline the same way they were.
So yeah, my argument still stands: Sombra is Starlights fault, but all other timelines go on Twilights account.
7082073
No; regardless of whether Twilight gave her the opportunity or not, it was still Starlight that was trying to keep Twilight from restoring the normal timeline. Thus, the blame for the shift to each new timeline falls upon Starlight's shoulders. Starlight knew that she was perpetuating the wrong timelines, and continued to do it. Let's say that I have a car, and you slash the tires. If I replace the tires, and then you slash them again, the second set of busted tires are your fault, not mine, even if you could not have slashed them again had I not repaired them. The same goes for Starlight and Twilight.
In addition, since it's almost certain that each new timeline is replacing the previous instead of them all continuing to exist in parallel, Twilight's success in restoring the original timeline already nullified any changes that she made, since the timelines where everyone suffered so much more than the standard one didn't exist anymore.
Finally, Starlight was keeping her memories of each interference with the Sonic Rainboom, given that she specifically referred to their fight that distracted Rainbow Dash, which means that she was time traveling back each time too, and that she wasn't a natural part of the timeline any more than Twilight was. From the perspective of each new timeline, Starlight materialized out of nowhere in Cloudsdale, no matter how many iterations they went through. The "natural" Starlight is somewhere else in the world.
7082632 If it's your car, yes, it would be. However, if I slash the tires of my car, and you keep replacing them without my consent, you are definitely at fault for ruining another set of tires, are you not? After all, it's my car, and I decide on what happens to it. And it's the case here: The moment the Sombra-timeline came into existence it was the "normal" timeline, just like my car having slashed tires would have been the proper way for my car, because it's my car and I decided on it.
In fact, I could easily turn that around: Twilight slashed the "tires" of Starlights world by interfering with her in her town, and Starlight "fixed" it by changing the past and making Twilight loose that ability. Now you probably ask "how did making Sombra win fix anything?" Well, it's Starlights perspective we are talking from: For her world to be fixed, she would just have to live a better live than she did before, and with the knowledge of Twilights demise, that might just have been achieved. Spite is a powerful thing, after all, even if the show doesn't admit to it. Not to mention that she might have profited in a multitude of other ways as well: With 10 years of foreknowledge, a lot can happen, so if Equestria has any sort of lottery, she's set on that end too, not to mention that she may have profited from the war itself (yes, people can profit from war, otherwise we wouldn't have them).
Now, Twilight decides to slash her "tires" again, and tear her life apart for another time. Now she's the one who interferes, because, like you said: "In addition, since it's almost certain that each new timeline is replacing the previous instead of them all continuing to exist in parallel, Twilight's success in restoring the original timeline already nullified any changes that she made, since the timelines where everyone suffered so much more than the standard one didn't exist anymore." There is no standard timelie anymore, it's gone, just like you said. Now it's Twilight who is messing things up, and Starlight is trying to protect (and FAILING) to keep the timeline in which she is happy alive (also, I would't say everyone is suffering so much more: Sombra and Tirek seemed pretty happy, Flim and Flam potentially technologically advanced ponykind by centuries, Discord is having his fun without livig in an abusive relatioship and the changeling race might not be exterminated in the Canterlot-genocide).
If any new timeline is truly replacing the old one, then there is no main timeline to be restored and with every iteration, Twilight takes on the form of the slasher instead of the owner of the car.
And that other thing... if she didn't travel with Twilight, she couldn't technically have known. She did, I probably forgot that part then, but I was more thinking about it from a logical standpoint, sorry about missing that.
Would be interesting seeing this beeing developed further. How Spike will handle all of this beeing "erased" from the timeline and having no more friendships despite Twilight.
7083843
That's very arguable, because it's still you doing the slashing, with no input from me. Regardless, in this situation, the car belongs collectively to every sapient being in it, not to Starlight, so she's slashing the tires of a car that she doesn't own. If Starlight uses a bus that dozens of other ponies ride in (especially one that Twilight has authority over), she has no right to slash the tires at all. Since she's a princess who rules over the country, Twilight has stewardship over the car (though not ownership), and is doing all of it to improve the lives of her ponies; it's not Starlight's world, nor is she doing it for the benefit of anyone else. Even if we still went with your analogy of Starlight owning the car, then no, she doesn't have the right to replace her tires if said tires are hurting innumerable people (such as if the tires emit a loud screech that causes permanent hearing damage to everyone within 1000 feet of the car, and she just always wears high grade headphones). In such a case, Twilight is perfectly justified in slashing those tires again if there's no legal way to stop Starlight from doing so.
Twilight "slashed the tires" of Starlight's town because not only was Starlight hurting other ponies with her "car", but she also attacked Twilight and her friends with it first (by removing their cutie marks without her permission). Twilight was removing her ability to hurt others with her car in a situation where she couldn't have the "car" impounded or the owner arrested. The time travel business wasn't intended to help Starlight's goal; as she stated, it was simply as petty revenge against Twilight, to make her feel what it would be like if she didn't have her bond with her friends. There was no guarantee that any of the timeline changes would benefit Starlight in the least, and indeed, tyrants like Sombra or Nightmare Moon would have zero tolerance against the kind of things she wants to implement. Regardless, that wouldn't be a legitimabte justification anyway.
The continuing existence of the cutie map and Zecora's salve clearly show that the original timeline is the only "correct" timeline. Sombra's timeline was the product of time travel, and the effects of said time travel would still be detectable, because the second Starlight and second Twilight appeared out of nowhere in Cloudsdale (and then the second Twilight disappeared again and reappeared again in Ponyville). Them currently existing in Sombra's timeline does not make it the original one. Who cares about the happiness of specific, individual creatures if said happiness cripples the happiness of thousands or millions more? Someone's right to happiness does not extend forever.
Starlight creating the timeline with her actions does not make it hers; it still belongs to every creature that lives in them, and as one of the princesses, Twilight's duty is to strive for the collective happiness of as many of her subjects as possible. Even if your version of the analogy holds true, then the tires that Starlight is putting on her car is hurting everyone, so it's Twilight's duty to slash them again until she stops putting on tires that make nearly everyones' lives significantly worse.
The "version" of Starlight that got taken back each time with Twilight seems to be the version that existed when Twilight was sent to the future each time, so she retained memories of all of their scuffles, just like Twilight.
7088189 Ah, so we are going this route, are we? *sigh* I already know where this is going, and that we'll have to agree to disagree in the end, since any question that soley resolves around the argument of the greater good is lost on me, so I'll be ending the discussion. For all I care about, there was no discussion to start out with: We lived lives that were so radically different that our perception of good and evil can not possibly overlap, meaning most we did was talking to a wall.
If you are still interested, below is my point in this, but given the circumstances, you will find it inconcievable (or insane) anyway, so I suggest not to, given that things you disagree with will likely come from that different outlook on morality itself.
Let me ask you a question: How does Twilight know she's doing the right thing? How does she know she is actually helping ponies?
Is she, in fact, capable of determining all future consequences of any given action throughout eternity, of comparing them to the results of all other possible courses of action through eternity, of assigning objective values to all of those consequences, of adjusting those values to account for the probability of them actually occurring, summing them up for each possible course of action, and then comparing those sums to see what course of action actually results in the greater good?
I’ll employ a tired rhetorical device here and give you a hint. Barring perfect knowledge of the total current state and rules governing the cosmos, either the elimination of all uncertainty which may be built into those rules or the ability to successfully calculate the probabilities of all possible outcomes, high-order transfinite errorless computational capacity capable of completing all possible operations within a very limited amount of time, and a perfect ability to implement a course of action which will differ from less optimal courses of action by an infinitesimal quantity, the answer would be “No”. If it's "Yes"... honestly, that would be the point at which we could stop watching the show, for obvious reasons.
We have no way of knowing what Twilight does WILL result into a better world, one way or another, and neither has she. Of course, I already provided a list of creatures that would benefit form THEIR specific timeline, and for the arguments sake, I'll throw in the Umbrums and Windigos for Sombras timeline. Of course, you can say that their lives don't matter, since you seem to be pretty focused on ponies, but personally, I wouldn't go that far.
“For the greater good”, and any variation of that, is a high-order abstraction. With a little verbiage and the user’s choice of predicted outcomes it can be used to justify pretty much anything you want. Here is an example:
"You have ten thousand delightfully good little kids? If they grow up a sizable number of their souls will inevitably be lost to eternal torment in hell, but if they die now, they automatically go to eternal bliss in heaven and only you will go to hell. As a servant of the greater good, it is thus your clear duty to kill as many of them as possible; the more you kill, the greater the good."
With that, “the greater good” just took us from “Paragon of Virtue” to “Mass Murderer of Children” in three sentences – and saying “that’s ridiculous!” won’t refute the logic, or the fact that history is full of actions carried out with even thinner rationales. Sure, if it’s “I want to keep as many of the colonists as possible alive – but we only have enough food to keep a fraction of the population alive through the winter, and even in the spring it’s going to be so rough and dangerous that it will take several adults to keep a single child alive”, then one can arguably be good while issuing an order to “round up most of the kids and all the elderly, kill them before we waste any more resources on them, and eat the corpses”. Be honest, though, is THAT what you want?
Of course, if I would:
1. Consider every single life to be worthless in face of the greater good (this includes the two of us, by the way).
2. Consider every lifeform aside from ponies as worthless (see changeling future).
3. Believe that every action that results into lessening immediate harm will also be the one that creates the least harm throughout eternity.
Then I would be willing to agree with you.
And while we are at technicalities: It is, and continues to be, a matter of fact, that if Twilight had stayed in the Sombraverse, the other timelines could not have jumped into being. She gave Starlight the chance to disrupt her, after all, and as the person that offered her this chance.
Twilight made Starlights life a living hell, and she treatened to do so everytime she came back. To deny Starlight the right to fight back is to deny her the right of self-defense. Everytime, Twilight comes back she essentially promises Starlight that if she doesn't "cut the tires", she will f**k her up.
Can you honestly not put yourself in those shoes? "For the greater good" might seem like a good idea, to sacrifice one for others benefits, but how would you like it if it were YOU who would have to suffer for others? Would you willingly lay down your life for others? If the answer is yes, honestly, we would probably not even have this conversation, because you would currently be somewhere in the third world and "give up your happiess for the happiness of others".
7088342
She knows she is doing the right thing because it's logical to believe that improving Ponies' lives by removing war, being ruled over by a tyrant, or being refugees. No, he cannot be completely sure that she is (since there's a tiny chance of there being some kind of future, life-wiping threat that say, only super Tirek can beat), but the odds that she is, is high enough that she can be safe in assuming so. You cannot second guess everything, or else Starlight would need to second guessing her actions as well (what if she would have gotten killed by a meteor if she had stayed in our town?). This type of thought process leads to a complete inability to make any decisions at all, in fear that they might cause more harm than good no matter how the current situation looks.
Thus, it is plenty to inform Twilight's decision that she sees that the original timeline, even if it wasn't perfect, was FAR better than any of the other timelines for almost everyone. Even putting aside the greater good argument, as a ruler, it's her duty to protect her subjects, and to keep them as happy and fulfilled as possible. In addition, there's no evidence that creatures such as Windigoes are even sapient, or that Umbrum exist at all (we certainly didn't see any in the Sombra timeline, nor did any appear in the brief time that the Crystal Heart was broken), and it is illogical to consider things that might exist, but that there is no evidence towards. Finally, even in the case of the changeling future, not only is it extremely likely that the ponies outnumber the changelings, but Chrysalis invaded the wedding and took over Equestria because she wanted power, not because of the survival of her species. Not only did she only talk about power when she was monologuing about her goals, and not essential food, but the changeling at Cranky and Matilda's wedding show that changelings can exist amongst ponies without being immediately attacked or otherwise prevented from living.
There's also the fact that shooting for the greater good is not an absolute tenet, and must be tempered by other concerns. That is the reason why minority rights are important, because of basic rights they have as sapient beings, which should not be undermined unless in very extreme situations. Your example of the person murdering children is not an example of a properly used greater good exercise, because not only does he not have any evidence that said children will go to hell if he doesn't intervene, but there is no logical evidence that hell itself exists. The greater good is misapplied by many in attempts to justify their actions, but that doesn't mean the concept itself is inherently flawed. As for your winter example, if there are no other options, they are fairly certain that it is their only option for any of them to survive, and they're intelligent enough to reasonably evaluate that, then yes, it's better than the alternative where all (or at least significantly more than would have if they didn't) of them die.
Twilight did not make Starlight's life a "living hell"; she was living in Equestria completely fine while following Twilight around and studying the time spell; in fact, it's far more likely that she was better off in the original timeline than in any of the other timelines, considering she's not immune to being conquered or being negatively affected by war, and she's unlikely to get much traction for her ideas in such dystopian worlds. The only reason she was continuing was because she was under the mistaken impression that stopping Twilight's cutie mark bond wouldn't affect the world very much, other than Twilight and her friends.
And no, Twilight is not to blame for each new timeline. She is partially responsible, yes, but that is completely different from being to blame. It was Starlight, and Starlight alone who is to blame, because she was the one that was purposefully creating each timeline or baiting Twilight into creating each timeline; Twilight cannot be blamed for changing the timelines just because she was failing to stop Starlight any more than Mary Lincoln is to blame for Abraham Lincoln's assassination just because she failed to stop Booth. Nor can she be blamed for setting the timeline back to the way it was before (before it gets thrown off again); when the United States government rebuilt the Pentagon after the 9/11 attacks, that does not make them responsible for a (theoretical) future attack of terrorism that destroys the Pentagon again.
And don't even bring up self-defense; not only does it not apply here, since Starlight was the one that attacked Twilight and her friends first in her town, but self-defense is not an infinitely extendable concept, or else the concept of morals wouldn't exist. After all, it could be used to justify literally anything, since one could argue that say, Tirek was justified in stealing everyone's magic because they were attempting to curb his right to happiness (which is greatest when he has everyone's magic). In fact, Twilight has a FAR better claim to legitimate self-defense than Starlight does, considering that the only things Twilight did to Starlight in season 5 were reactions to what Starlight did to her and her friends.
If I felt I would do the most good for people in general working in a third world country (which I don't, since I don't possess the skills needed for working there to help the people there, and I feel I can do more good here), and I had the means (I don't), then yes, I would be out there helping people. Similarly, if I was told by a murderer that he will either kill me, or ten other people (and I somehow knew that he was telling the truth), and I knew that there was no way for everyone to live, then yes, I would tell him to kill me instead
7088342 *sniff* that magnificent wall of text brought a tear to my eye. beautifully written, it truly is a masterpiece of reasoning. i was kind of on the fence on the issue, but that comment managed to win me over. bravo, my good man, bravo.
Well, it started good, but then you started losing me when Starlight started lecturing. At that point, the story got a little too exposition-y. I also feel the resolution makes even less sense that Starlight's abrupt reformation in the actual episode.
Nope this makes no sense to me. You did a good job writing this, but it still makes no sense to me.
Well...crap. I hope Twilight knows how to recreate Starlight's spell.
Perhaps the timelines weren't technically each worse than the last. They were still all way worse than the regular one—way worse. And none, not a single one, looked to be anywhere as nice and wholesome a place to live as Equestria Prime.
And if you take the Flim Flam line as an anomaly, then Twilight is correct: Each was worse than the last. Starlight thinks Nightmare Moon isn't so bad? Then she should try living under her. Under a ruler who is so jealous she will force you to give your power to her or watch her hurt your loved ones, including a child. Starlight Glimmer wasn't there to see, her stance is full of arrogance and self-righteous bluster.
There were no signs of thing truly improving. No sign that Twilight would eventually find a second Equestria as nice as the first. Because there likely isn't one; time wasn't meant to be messed with like Starlight did. Some things can't be forced like that. Remember how well getting a fake or the wrong Cutie Mark works out? There's no reason to believe there's another Equestria where things haven't gone to hell, other than Starlight trying to appease her conscience. No matter what excuses she makes, her actions will have led to untold suffering for the sake of petty revenge.
Can't say I was a fan. Not sure it's because of my natural bias against Starlight as a character (I see her as Hasbro refusing to give us Sunset and trying to make a Sunset 2.0 instead) or simply with how much I can't take her argument seriously.
This was pretty dang good. Really great in fact. A nice little read and good way to look at things.
You magnificent guy...........just wow...........
That was incredibly interesting. The ending confused me at first, but it took shape in my mind as I thought about it. They never did get exactly back to their own timeline, so it's kind of like an episode of Sliders (old TV show reference!). I did see the "Twilight Apocalypse" coming, but it was still a delightful reveal.
Well written!
I think at one point you said "firt" when you meant "dirt". FYI