A Friendly Discussion
A rough draft chapter. It's just intended to address some of the concerns of the original one. I banged it out in about an hour.
Celestia inhaled the warm fumes of her tea, a slight smile crossing her lips as the heavenly scent washed over her. She raised the cup to her lips and took a delicate sip, nodding in approval at the skill of her tea maker. A perfect job, as always. She set the china cup down on the small table before her and looked up at her guest, her smile not leaving her lips for a moment.
"It is quite good, King Turgis. Are you sure you would not like me to pour you a cup?"
Kind Turgis, a minotaur king almost as tall as Celestia, draped in wolf furs, raised a hand and shook his head. "No thank you, Celestia. I'm fine."
"Suit yourself." Celestia took another sip before continuing. "Now, then, tell me how you're doing. I heard you're moving some troops near my border? I must say that I was surprised to hear that, but given that one of my subjects assassinated a duke of yours, I can't really fault you for being a little angry with us."
Turgis sighed and drummed his fingers on the armrest of his chair. "No, and I am glad that you see my side of things, Celestia. My people are quite outraged at the death of my nephew. He was a very well-respected leader."
"By me as well."
"Indeed? Because there are rumors that you are the one who ordered the attack."
Celestia frowned and put her teacup back down. "Me? Oh King Turgis, I am shocked! I do not assassinate others. My tactics are not so underhooved as that."
"Nevertheless, you know that our countries have not always had the happiest of pasts. My council wants war for this, and I'm inclined to favor that."
"I supposed you might." Celestia grimaced and refilled her teacup. "And that would be too bad."
"We are in agreement there. Your country cannot compete with mine militarily, and mine cannot compete with yours magically. The question is, who has the upper hand or hoof in other areas? My military is has grown stronger in the past few years."
"And I am impressed for it," Celestia said with a smile. "Though, have you heard that this year's graduating class from my school for gifted unicorns is probably my most talented yet overall? I am so glad that I implemented that combat magic club. It's so popular amongst the students."
"I have heard of it, yes, and I believe I saw a friendly sparring match during my last visit." Turgis glanced down at a plate of crumpets that had been put out for us, before thinking better of it and shaking his head. "Should we go to war, I look forward to seeing how well they do when they are being throttled by my troops and their horns have been smashed off."
"Without their horns they would be in a tight spot," Celestia admitted with some unease.
"And they'd find themselves in that spot when facing an army of my size and strength. Our ranged troops could take out your pegasus air force, and I am eager to face your earth pony shock troops on the battlefield." Turgis shrugged. "Of course, if our ranged weapons do not work, our alliance with the griffins might. I'm sure they'd love to get involved in a war against you that they'd think they'd win."
"And I am certain of it too." Celestia took a dainty bite of a cucumber sandwich as she formulated her next answer. "I suppose then my next tactic would be calling in the Saddle Arabians to aid me. A god superpower makes allies, King Turgis, which, incidentally, is why many see you as a superpower."
"Indeed, Celestia. However, as the griffins and Saddle Arabians are innocent, I'd like to keep them out of this if possible." Turgis shrugged. "But if you brought them in, we'd bring in some dragon allies."
"And we'd respond in kind," Celestia said with a small sigh. She shook her head and waved her hoof. "But war is not won by brute strength alone. Could you feed that army you're sending?"
Turgis smirked slightly and nodded. "In the last few years we have developed several major cash crops that can be grown quickly enough to feed a fighting force, yes. With a quick attack of one of your cities we could hold it effectively for some time." Turgis leaned back in his seat and sighed. "I'll be honest, Celestia. I don't need to beat you militarily to win. I know I can't, given your powers. I just need to hold out long enough for you to give up." Turgis' smirk returned. "You know, like the Diamond Dogs did when you went to war with them a hundred years ago?"
"A fiasco that I vowed to learn from," Celestia muttered. "And I like to think that I have."
"And you are not the only one. Your ponies died by the thousands, and as a good leader who cares for her subjects, you couldn't stand it. You ended the war. It hurt to lose like that, didn't it? It gave the rest of us a blueprint."
"As I said, I have learned from that as well. So you would take Vanhoover? Well, I could easily send a flying force over the clouds to bomb one of your cities, particularly if it was a military target."
"Something that would trigger retribution."
"And so on and so forth..."
Celestia shrugged. "So what about economically? Say you win this war. Wars are extremely expensive, revenge wars doubly so. You and I both know that you could never get in a position to sack Canterlot, and it is an equally ridiculous notion that I would ever march to Schunie to raze the place. On top of the innocents I would kill, my forces would be so decimated that it wouldn't be worth it."
"Economically..." Turgis shrugged. "Well, yes, wars are expensive. But again: we count it as a victory if the expense is greater for you. That is the nature of war, is it not?"
"Yes, yes it is." Celestia's gaze flickered from her tea to her guest. "And you are certain that that is how it would play out?"
"Reasonably, yes. If I wasn't, I would not be here."
"Can you tell me with one hundred percent certainty?" Turgis fell silent, triggering another sigh from Celestia. "So I think all of our cards are on the table here. So what I am hearing from this is that if we engaged in a war, the casualties on both sides, both civilian and military, would be massive. Potentially in the tens of thousands. Our economies would be devastated, and it would really be one big, bloody staring contest that might draw other nations into it. Am I hearing that right? The first one to blink comes out only slightly better?"
Turgis tightened his jaw and slowly tilted his head. "I... suppose if you wish to put it like that. Yes, that would be the case."
"So you don't wish to resolve this a little more peacefully?"
Turgis clicked his tongue, but slowly nodded. "It might be best."
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Hm..I am guessing this is before the Elements...A century after the war the previous chapter mentioned..(The one where the Diamond Dogs swore to never try to reclaim the land.)
I take it she doesn't use the threat of keeping the sun away or the like....even though they could easily make their lands unbearably miserable in terms of both weather and the like.
You should change the name of the story to "Warmongreling", it would make a great pun!
5016403; Fluttershy was mentioned in the last chapter.
Always fun to start with MAD, then point out that any implimentation, due to demands of even equivalent retribution would spiral out of control, so you dance the dance of diplomacy, and the industrial spies make sure everyone knows everyone elses secrets.
5016430 Not in regards to the past war, but in the present as to why the diamond dogs shouldn't be trying to start a war as it would anger possibly the most powerful chaotic being on the planet.
I myself would not mind reading more about this... but at the same thing this is really good
5016403 I don't think it was ever mentioned in the previous chapter how long ago was the previous war with the diamond dogs were so this might be just a few days after or even during chapter one.
That's it. I'm emigrating to Equestria.
Again like a master chess player celestia hasn't revealed her four aces and two wilds (6 aces nigh unbeatable) yet
5016583 Oh, I'm certain she's got more than 4 aces.
That was fun. Looking forward to more.
Keep up the good work. Deus tecum.
5016529 Do you mean immigrating? Or does emigrating mean something that I don't know?
I wish this happened in real life...
5016932
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emigration -"Emigration is the act of leaving one's country or region with the intent to settle permanently in another."
It's the same as Immigration, but spoken from the point of leaving one's current country. Immigration is the movement of people into another country or region to which they are not native in order to settle there.
ENGLISH! It sucks!
5016988 Indeed
Yay! Celestia wins again! It's odd, the story said complete so I wasn't expecting a new chapter... So I'll see you at the next chapter.
5016415
The thing is, Celestia COULD do that. But that would cause massive resentment, maybe even an underground movement to dethrone her. Or simply start killing ponies until she gives in to the attackers' demands.
Celestia will never lord the fact that she controls the sun over other nations' heads. Happy subjects and happy (or at least neutral) surrounding areas are the goal here. She could be a terrifying conqueror, crushing and burning all who stand in her way. But running a country like that is absolutely exhausting, since she would never, ever be able to relax. She'd have to keep everyone down at all times. Yet people still persist with this "Tyrantlestia" schtick, often making her a literal goddess, completely and utterly immune to all forms of attack or damage.
I like the style, good job
5017058
There's how those perceive her, and then there's what she actually is.
I always got the impression that she works to keep the latter half hidden
I like how this new ch is the two of them basically looking at a world war while drinking tea. It kinda makes you wonder if the leaders of the Germany or France or Britain all got together to do this before it all went bad...
5016099 who are you Obama
5016529 >5016932 Actually the statement "I want to emigrate to Equestria" does have another meaning, but only for those who know CelestAI.
As for problems with the last chapter, I didn't see any. The Diamond Dong King tried to use threats and bluster to intimidate Sunbutt into surrendering, and she in effect called him out and forced him to realize that "You would be screwed" was the understatement of the year. Even the end of it wasn't a problem IMO, because she wants to make it clear that she is playing nice this time. There will be no second chances.
However this chapter DOES show that Sunbutt isn't merely a trollish bitch. She screwed with the dog because he was being a bully and a stupid one at that. Turgis does have a valid issue, and personally I believe that Sunbutt isn't lying when she claimed not to be responsible for the assassination. Rather than troll a respected equal, Sunbutt helps break it down that "Yes, you might win. And yes we might win. But in the end, do either of us win?". It shows a ruler that is willing to respect those who act and treat others with the same.
They just narrowly averted World War I.
5016497 Considering Discord, Luna, and the Element's weren't mentioned...It is most likely before. In addition, it was clear that the Third Diamond Dog Kingdom never even threw a spear.
5017670 Ah, but Fluttershy was mentioned last chapter, and unless this chapter specifically happens prior to the first, than it's current-Equestria.
5012411
Diamond Dogs are dumb, its their thing.
5014858
My favorite is Stalin - fucking Stalin! - seriously believing that Hitler was going to honor a non-aggression pact. Instead of......you know.......invading, exterminating the "Sub-Human" Slavs, and repopulating it with "Aryans" like he EXPLAINED HE WOULD IN HIS GODDAMN BEST-SELLING BOOK. His top spy even gave him the invasion date. If you came up that in any fictional story, people would call bullshit and laugh at your weak-ass plothole.
I love this fic. You write Celestia PERFECTLY and I love her passive aggressive way of handling these situations.
Nice work.
5017870 ...I'm saying it DOES take place before the first chapter. Because it never mentions Discord, Luna, or ANY OF THE ELEMENTS OF HARMONY.
5016430 I meant THIS CHAPTER.
Hm, now this feels more like Celestia's nature.
5017488 Can't really say it better then this.
Overall, loved it, and both chapters fit very well. They were different situations and Tia responded to them how they should be dealt with.
5016106
That would be an interesting development.
Since we're all taking pages from history here, remember what happened during the earlier parts of WW2? When the French and British soldiers were smiling as they climbed into the trains, singing songs about hanging their laundry at the Siegfried Line? They were so confident that they would easily trounce Germany. After all, they won the last war, right?
Yeah, not quite the curbstomping they expected.
That aside, I'll say what I said earlier about the second chapter. It's much weaker than the first one. Look, this "big lesson" about how war is a costly affair for all sides involved isn't the groundbreaking revelation that you might think it is. No reader likes being lectured. The second chapter may as well be Celestia turning to face the camera and saying "War is bad, kiddies." It comes off as patronizing. Don't teach the reader a lesson. Instead, illustrate this reality through a story.
5018607 It's not so much about the message as about how Celestia deals with two leaders. The two chapters could be talking about ice cream, or whatever. Doesn't make a whole lot of difference. It's not about the war itself as much as showing how Celestia diffuses the different situations.
The whole time I was expecting the king to fall over and die from the tea being poisoned.
5017058
Personally, I like to think of Celestia as a physical avatar of the Sun, with the Sun being sentient and the 'actual' Celestia. Therefore killing her accomplishes nothing because the Sun will make another right away. (Likewise, it's absolutely stupid to believe Nightmare Moon was physically sent to sit on the moon for a thousand years, so I see it that Celestia dispelled her corporeal avatar and bound the Moon/Luna from creating another body until the taint of the Nightmare that infected Luna/the Moon ((mare in the moon)) had either been purged, or broken free of the seal.)
By that headcanon, I had to look at Hearth's Warming differently. Pegasi control the weather and are the militant expansionist tribe. Earth ponies make the food and do the hard labor. Unicorns would do what in the ancient pony homeland? Art? They have nothing to make demands with. They can't use leverage to force anyone to feed them or protect them/not conquer and enslave them. So, with the sun and moon rising and setting... and no one else understanding what magic is or how it is wielded by unicorns... "We control the heavens! If you want us to continue controlling the heavens and making sure the world does not come to a fiery or frigid end, you will tithe unto us your foodstuffs, and not carry out aggressions upon us! You will defend us when we are under attack!"
Celestia frowned and put her teacup back down. "Me? Oh King Turgis, I am shocked! I do not assassinate others. My tactics are not so underhooved as that."
Kinda hypocritical for her to say that after she DID USE underhanded tactics to destroy the Diamond Dog king.
. A god superpower makes allies,
. A good superpower makes allies,
Why isn't she saying she can just drop the sun again?
Why isn't she bringing up the dragons this time?
Why not the flat out promise to break him in half for daring to threaten her ponies?
"You know, like the Diamond Dogs did when you went to war with them a hundred years ago?"
SHE went to war with THEM? I thought it was vice versa.
And how was it a fiasco?
5018808
Which is all headcanon, because the journal of the two sisters states she was born normally and hooked up with the sun later at star swirl the bearded's request.
Also, if this war happened, it would leave the one big target for Chrysalis' hungry changelings after.
The changelings wouldn't both with letters demanding surrender, they don't want land, tribute, treasure, power, resources, etc.
They come because they see ponies as food. And there is no logical reason to barter or make demands of a love sandwich. They simply come.
5018896 These two stories don't necessarily take place in the same time or universe. It's more comparing how she'd deal with two separate scenarios.
5017871
It's generally believed that Stalin had plans to eventually invade Germany and the surrounding nations anyway, although the degrees to which his plans had been prepared for by 1941/to which Hitler was intentionally preempting him are both in dispute. But, apparently, there were a large number of Soviet forces concentrated in areas that had no defensive value, which is part of why the Wehrmacht cut them up so badly. It's been theorized that Stalin had put them there with the intention of entering the war once German soldiers had entered Britain and Hitler had to commit large numbers of German troops to maintain his British foothold. Also, nobody really expected Hitler to deliberately invade the Soviet Union out of nowhere, because waging a multi-fronted war against two or three major world powers at the same time is suicidal.
5018607
While I agree the first story was better (though that's to be expected given that this story was a response to the comments of the last one) I hardly think this is simply Celestia patronizing the reader. It's certainly not as simple as "Wars are bad kids" nor does she even say anything hinting at that.
This is Celestia treating her guest with respect and not sugar coating or misleading the issues, giving the Mino Leader a chance to see how poorly the situation will go without his advisers or countrymen blindly calling for blood. Yes people will do stupid things when they get caught up in the wave of emotion and group think that builds around a war (as your example of French and British troops singing as they go off to war shows) but when they don't have that mindless crowd behind them and they are sitting in front of a rational person who just clearly walked them through a few of the various issues they'll have? It's alot harder to be quite so quick to act, especially if you're a good leader (which the characters in fantasy stories can be and ones in reality rarely are).
That's not to say the Mino Leader will simply walk away with his tail between his legs. He might still demand some reparation for the crimes against his people and Celestia might actually give him them (since it seemed in this story she was actually dealing with someone she respected unlike the Diamond Dog from the last one). She agrees with his anger and admits that the wrong doing was her people's fault, that's a pretty accepting stance to take if you're going to end up simply offending him. The Mino Leader only reconsidered his immediate declaration of war, at no point did he let everything go. And for Celestia outright refusal of his demands might force him to declare war anyway if only to appease his subjects which Celestia wouldn't want.
It's hardly a simple situation here.
5016415
5017058
Actually she did use the threat of the sun (and maybe even acted on it, causing a heat wave) against the Diamond Dogs last story so it's not out of the question. I think it more that she doesn't want to use it because she is a decent person and doesn't want to harm innocents if she can help it, not because she fears others raising up against her.
5018906
And? I did say 'personally'. I don't think it required repeating. o-o
5018896
She didn't mention killing his people with the sun, probably because this isn't some stupid diamond dog she's dealing with and she knew he wouldn't fall for her intimidation (then again the Diamond Dog didn't fall for it either so...). I doubt she would ever want to do that unless she had no choice, and I expect he knew that. She also did mention calling in the dragons to counter him calling in dragons (I guess some factions of the dragons here are allied with each ruler). Finally, she only threatened the Diamond Dog ruler after he was beaten and no longer a threat. This is a ruler who isn't already beat, who isn't yet against talking things out. Threatening him would be frankly stupid and pointless (and would again be an empty threat, seeing as how her killing him would only enrage the minos further).
Also, "she went to war with them" does not mean she started the war, it simply means she actively participated. And apparently it was a fiasco because she was forced to call off the war because it was a bloody conflict that had dragged on too long (and she was likely facing unrest from her population not to mention her own sadness at the loss of lives).
This wasn't quite as much fun as the first one. It was still good, but starting it off with an assassination just seems kind of out of place for a fun story.
5019101 Well this one isn't mean to to be as fun. It's actually a separate story that I created in response to some of the comments to this one that I just made into another chapter here because they were similar enough. I tagged that one "slice of life."
5019159
Fun was probably the wrong choice of words, but it still seems like an odd start since as you established in this chapter, Celestia is great at talking things out. So I don't see a reason for her to do an assassination, assuming the rumor is true, but she never really refutes it so the reader has no idea but to assume since rumors tend to usually be treated as fact in a lot of fiction and games.
5019182
She says she didn't do it. Plus, you know I have to have some reason to establish conflict and, well, the history major in me couldn't resist a little WWI nod.