Paul's Thursday Reviews CCXCV · 7:51pm May 19th, 2022
For the past couple months I’ve been gradually re-reading a favorite story of mine: PatchworkPoltergeist’s The Silver Standard. I’m taking it at a grinding pace, maybe one chapter a week, mostly for the sake of savoring the experience. The most recent chapter I read involved Cherilee’s students getting stuck doing a summer work program where one adult in Ponyville ‘mentors’ each of them for a few weeks. To the prim, proper and punctual Silver Spoon’s shock and possible horror, she ends up with Pinkie Pie.
This is a favorite chapter of mine, largely because it coincides wonderfully with my own headcanon regarding Silver’s special talent, i.e. hosting social events. Or, to use Pinkie’s words, “You’re a party pony, Silver Spoon.” She spends the next few weeks teaching Silver the ins and outs of hosting parties, and Silver is surprised to find she enjoys every minute of it.
Alas, this arc only lasts one chapter. After re-reading it, I realize one chapter just isn’t enough for this topic. I want to see this idea expanded into its own story. I don’t have the time for it, which stinks, and even if I did I’d want to reinterpret it as an original fiction. So if we’re ever going to get a big slice-of-life in which the Party Pony teaches the high-class filly (as opposed to Diamond Tiara being the socialite filly), it’ll need to be somebody else.
Just imagine it. Years of Silver Spoon forming a relationship with Pinkie Pie as student and teacher. The antics. The confusion. The drama. The conflict. There’s so much that can be done with this, it’s practically a crime that we’ve only got a single chapter of it that I am aware of.
I’m just throwing that little seed of an idea out there. If I’m lucky, somefishy will get hooked.
While I wait by the line and watch the cork bob, why don’t we get to some reviews?
Stories for This Week:
Rest by Rated Ponystar
The Adventures Begin by Dragon Shimmer
Away by The Cloptimist
Total Word Count: 103,598
Rating System
Why Haven't You Read These Yet?: 0
Pretty Good: 1
Worth It: 1
Needs Work: 1
None: 0
Rest
5,386 Words
By Rated Ponystar
Sequel to Useless
Many years after Equestria lost the war against humanity, Twilight Sparkle, the last alicorn, is dying of cancer. Spike, ever loyal, remains at her side to the very end.
This story is set in the Negotiations-verse, an AU of The Conversion Bureau in which Celestia attempted to wipe out all of humanity and manipulated every creature she knows to keep the attempted genocide going. The AU has largely focused on Princess Twilight’s struggle to heal her people and make amends to humanity for her deceased mentor’s methods. In this story we get to watch Spike as he copes with Twilight’s inevitable end.
It’s curious that this story, which effectively ends the main arc of the AU, focuses almost exclusively on Spike. Oh, sure, Twilight has a few moments, but Spike is the star of the show. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that decision, but I can see it giving some readers pause.
More concerning is how Rated Ponystar can’t seem to move this series beyond “the consequences of Celestia”. We get it, what Celestia did was terrible, but at what point is this story going to stop leaning into the Conversion Bureau bashing and move on to what’s next? Looking at the descriptions for the sequels, I suspect the answer is “never”.
To be fair, this is a series that got its start by bashing on The Conversion Bureau. It’s a bit deeper than that, with more of a focus on the characters’ evolutions than anything. And credit where it’s due: Rated Ponystar does a great job showing how Twilight and the world is evolving after the war. But it seems that, in a perceived obligation to its source material, it can’t not hang heavily on badmouthing the original AU. I’m at the point where it’s getting tiring, but I’m sure a lot of people won’t mind.
The only other issue I have is the recurring one, namely an overabundance of wording problems. It’s one of those situations that makes me think the author abused the Spell Checker feature without actually checking to ensure it was spitting out the right words. This has existed since the very first story in this series, but I didn’t say anything because I figured it wasn’t too big a deal. But now, after reading no less than ten stories by this author, a basic problem that should have been solved ages ago is ongoing. That’s not something I can ignore anymore.
It’s long past time I moved past this series and read something much more recent by this author. Perhaps in doing so I’ll find they’ve improved vastly. As for this story, I’ll put it on the middle shelf. Disregarding the grammar issues there’s nothing fundamentally wrong with it and I think a lot of people will like it. The series just isn’t doing anything special for me.
Bookshelf: Worth It
Previous stories reviewed for this author:
The Assassination of Twilight Sparkle — Pretty Good
Never Forget Me — Worth It
Sanguine Kindness — Worth It
Negotiations — Worth It
Aftermath of a Fallen Star — Worth It
The Adventures Begin
89,989 Words
By Dragon Shimmer
Requested by Dragon Shimmer
When Sunset Shimmer gets banished from Equestria for murder, she lands in the universe of Epic Battle Fantasy.
Dragon Shimmer contacted me about this, specifically hoping I could provide some insight into why their story had so many downvotes. Well…
'Really? I met some sort of white dragon before you found me. He poked my eyes after he poked his forehead," Sunset opens her dimensional pocket, appearing fire in her eyes, but she doesn't care about it. "Well, I think I have that crystal in my pocket," and she found nothing. "Maybe I'm wrong."
Natalie looks at Sunset curiously. "You don't feel any burn or anything?".
Sunset admits, "I still feel like my eyes are on fire, but I'm getting used to it. Besides, I'm trying to ignore this problem."
'Should I burn your whole body to make you feel it?" Matt asks as he is lighting matches, but he got a "bonk" from Sunset.
Sunset says, "Don't joke about this stuff please, I don't like to be on fire."
Matt offers, "Okay okay geez...Anyone up for some squid meat?".
"Ok...we should wait for Lance for eating each other"
Sunset, Natalie, and Matt test magic to learn more about this fire. It has been found that if Sunset uses a certain amount of mana, she will get burned. When the testing was done, Lance returned with a medium bag of money.
At this point, I’m sure a significant portion of my audience have already written this off as unreadable. I wouldn’t blame them.
I’ve seen this kind of writing before. Primarily, I’ve seen it in bad video game translations. Which tells me that English is not Dragon Shimmer’s first language. The rest of this review is written on that assumption, and it would make sense that Dragon Shimmer’s writing is inevitably going to be poor. Anyone who cares even remotely about that won’t get past the first few paragraphs.
That being said, we can’t really blame Dragon Shimmer for not being a native English speaker. It’s not right to close the door on every ESL who wants to write. It’s frustrating to read through, but I’m not going to deduct points over it.
So how about the story? I have to admit that I know absolutely nothing about Epic Battle Fantasy. Apparently it’s a series of Final Fantasy-inspired flash games. I did a minute amount of research and found that the team Sunset joins are in fact the central characters of the game, though I’ve no idea if their ‘characters’ are left intact or not. The general premise is that these main characters (minus one, whom Sunset apparently takes the place of) just got their butts kicked by some demon and want revenge, and thus ‘recruit’ Sunset into helping them do it.
Problems begin early on with the plot. For example, Sunset is being banished from Equestria for murder. When Celestia asks why, Sunset simply says she can’t tell her. Must be some big, terrible, personal secret if she’s not willing to tell Celestia. Then, many chapters later, we learned that the pony she murdered was plotting to murder Celestia. So, uh, why couldn't Sunset tell Celestia this?
The plot is filled with these kinds of nonsensical decisions.
“Hey, here’s this important thing we want to talk about!” “No, I don’t feel like it.” “Oh, alright, that’s fine.”
“You want me to do what? That’s crazy! Why should I?” “I’m not going to tell you.” “Okay, I’ll do it.”
“I’m not going to trust you be because you won’t show me your face.” “Well, I’m not showing you my face.” “Fine, I’ll trust you.”
Seriously, this stuff happens all the time in this story, and there isn’t a single instance where it makes sense.
One of the better examples is when Sunset first meets Matt, Natalie, and Lance. These three decide, without any real reason, that they want Sunset in their team. Then they tell her she has to sign a contract with them. When she asks them what is in the contract, they pull a Pelosi and say “you have to sign it to know what’s in it.” No, seriously, they actually say this. And Sunset agrees and signs the thing.
Then, again for no reason, they force Sunset to stand on two legs for the duration of the story. Oh, Dragon Shimmer tries to justify it, but there is no justification. Author, if you really wanted this so badly, you should have just made the story human or anthro. And why does Sunset continuously insist upon hiding the fact that she’s a pony? This is a world where robots that look like birds are sapient and work for the military, but somehow a pony is expected to be ostracized?
Another issue is the logic of the characters at any given moment. Which, I know, sounds a lot like what I mentioned above. But in this case I’m talking about something that I think is a translation issue. There are a lot of instances where characters talk about things in ways that don’t make sense even in context. These felt less like bad decisions on the author’s part and more like the author just didn’t know the right words for the situation. Again, I don’t blame the author for not being English-fluent, but this problem is particularly bad and warrants some attention.
Then there’s the whole “video game” nature of the story, which is one of my bigger issues with it. A prominent instance is when the group fights a hydra:
The Three heads breathe at them at the same time, enough to create a huge fire blast. The team is trying to hold the attack but it fails, the blast is interacting with them and explodes. Matt and Sunset are still standing but weak now while Natalie and Lance are unconscious.
You couldn’t possibly get a more blatant statement than this. It immediately conjures to mind a JRPG party getting hit with a powerful, all-character attack. Because that’s what it is. I have no idea what kind of mood the author is going for. Is this supposed to be a serious story that we’re all supposed to see as dramatic, or is it a goofy comedy? If Dragon Shimmer meant this to be a joke of a story, then they’re doing it right. But if they wanted this to be a proper drama/adventure, then they failed spectacularly with the video gamey bits. When you take a walk in the woods, you are not going to be routinely attacked by monsters, but that happens regularly in this “story”.
Let’s not forget that the entire plot starts with three characters getting thoroughly trounced by a big bad monster and deciding to go on this epic quest in order to “train” and challenge the monster again for petty revenge.
To summarize, Dragon Shimmer needs to make a lot of improvements beyond the poor English. They have to make a decision on whether their story is going to be a silly romp through a video game or an actual work of literature. They need to instill some basic logic into their characters. Mood and atmosphere can’t even exist until they can improve upon their character interactions.
None of this stops me from having some hope for this author, though. Dragon Shimmer is one of those people I’ve seen regularly asking good questions on various forums about writing in general. Granted, they’ll have to develop their written English significantly before they’ll be able to write something most people can get through (at least on this scale), but if they continue to want to learn I see no reason that they can’t evolve into an author worth reading.
Bookshelf: Needs Work
Previous stories reviewed for this author:
New Author!
Away
8,223 Words
By The Cloptimist
She lives in a little bothy, isolated and alone. She doesn’t dare go near ponies. That would lead to visions. She doesn’t like the visions. Better for her – perhaps better for everypony – if she stays away.
Inspired by the recent Covid epidemic, this story follows a mare who is cursed by her special talent to have visions of how other ponies are going to die whenever she gets close to them. She doesn’t know if the visions are prophetic in nature, if they’re completely harmless, or if she is directly causing future deaths by proximity. All she knows is she sees ponies dying when near them, and the solution she chose from foalhood was to isolate herself completely from society.
When a story has the theme of “I see others’ deaths”, it’s understandable to expect a horror. This is not one of those. Rather, it’s a quiet, slow tale of a mare living in isolation for both her own sanity and what she hopes is the greater good. The parallels to the recent Covid event are significant, and I find that to be the greatest part of this story. The nameless narrator’s fear of causing harm, her uncertainty as to the exact nature of her abilities, her unwillingness to take even the slightest risk, the self-imposed nature of her isolation, how hard it is on her psyche, even the ending where she discovers it might not have been necessary, it all functions as a solid reinterpretation. The Cloptimist really thought this one through, and I admire that.
I think the only catch is that this is a slow burn. It can feel like a whole lot of nothing, because almost the entire story is one mare alone in a bothy trying to keep it together. In terms of atmosphere, this suits the nature and point of the story perfectly, but those who think “oh, I get to read something new!” is a tad boring, this won’t be for you. You have to be willing and able to engross yourself in the narrator’s plight in order to get the most out of it.
A solid story overall, especially considering what the Cloptimist was trying to do. I tip my hat to the author and highly recommend it, even knowing it won’t appeal to everyone.
Bookshelf: Pretty Good!
Previous stories reviewed for this author:
You Betcha! — Pretty Good
Stories for Next Week:
The Struggles of Running a Book Store by arcanica_scripta
The Trouble With Truffles by Golden Skies
Redder Than Apples by TheEveryDaySparkle
One Week Later by cerealkiller78
Towards the Sunrise by Pearple Prose
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Yes, that last one was rather good. My only hangup was how it seemed like the protagonist passed up several easy opportunities to ask for help, one obvious one being to contact Celestia or Twilight. Even so, it gets deeply and reasonably into the mental anguish that this pony's situation would cause anyone, and it's good as a character study.
solid internal rubric for dealing with ESL writers
quite honestly, anyone deciding to write literature of any stripe in a language they aren't a native speaker of has my utmost respect
The Silver Standard is so, so good. I still remember finally starting to read it (think it was Summer 2020?) and being so hooked that I blitzed through it in the bones of a week. A working week. It's definitely the rare longfic I fully intend to reread at some point. In more of a slow burn manner, though perhaps not taking several months like yourself, buddy. Then again, with having to balance reviews on the side now…
I'm sure most of everyone reading this knows the story and why it's so bloody good, but to summarise, I've hardly ever seen a fic do such a phenomenal job of taking place alongside and around canon events (and all while adding something, it's never just telling us stuff we know, even during the one or two moments episode scenes happen onscreen). Then there's providing a different take on Silver that fleshes her out substantially yet feels so right, making her and Diamond's friendship feel genuine, really getting into the foal community of Ponyville, a great and unique take on Diamond's relationship with her mom and Spoiled Rich in general (something tackled more directly in other side stories by PatchworkPoltergeist), making a story with very little conflict never get boring and sustain itself for almost 300K. Oh, and of course, having ideas along the way that could form whole lesser fics themselves (I mean that in a good way, not a 'wasted potential' way), like Silver Spoon with Pinkie as mentioned above. I'll add to that her first meeting with Discord, it still sticks out in my mind even now.
So, um, yes, it's a good 'un, folks.
Oh yes, Away is pretty darn good too, one of the stronger works from an author whose SFW fics I largely dug. Nothing much to add to yourself or other reviews cited in its description; I do feel it's perhaps not the strongest version of itself, and it took me a while to jive with the storytelling vibe it was going for.
Also, somehow, I didn't even make the COVID connection myself! Us phantoms don't, ah, really ingest how much it's everpresent to those with physical bodies.
5658598
For real. Just learning how to ask where the bathroom is in another language is hard enough, trying to write a novel in one? I certainly would never try.
The Silver Standard is on my list, and I keep meaning to get to it very, very soon, now. I think I need to bump it up to the top.
Speaking of stories I waited too long to read, I really enjoyed Away. I hate to admit it, but it was The Cloptimist's username that initially kept me away from his well-written stories. Something, something, books and covers... lesson learned, I guess.
Yeah, that’s also one of my favorite chapters in the whole story. Silver Spoon being a party pony like Pinkie is one of those rare head canons that seem like complete nonsense at first glance but make complete sense when you really think about it, especially given that PatchworkPoltergeist already did one of the most amazing cutie mark acquisition scenes I’ve ever seen back in Chapter 3. Of course, Silver Spoon’s apprenticeship under Pinkie is pretty much a plot device that is meant to reintroduce the consequences of the school paper incident, but I’d say it also marks an important step in Silver Spoon’s adaptation to Ponyville life and in her transformation into a better equine overall.
Speaking of ESL, I as a Chinese can confirm that it’s hard to write something not in your native language (though I believe Paul had some experience with ESL learners). You know by heart what is acceptable (not necessarily 100% grammatically correct) and what isn’t acceptable in your native language, but you can never be sure when it comes to second or maybe third languages. The frustrating part is that relying on dictionaries may not even help because there’s a chance that people in real life don’t talk like that. Something 100% grammatically correct may not be acceptable in the exact situation you’re facing and that’s something you just can’t learn from dictionaries and textbooks. It gets better the more often you use said language, like, I’m 75% sure that my comment here doesn’t have any glaring issues, but still. I tried writing some pony fanfiction of my own in English once or twice but it’s likely that I won’t show them to a single soul. I’ll stick to translating content into Chinese, thank you very much.
"So, uh, why couldn't Sunset tell Celestia this?"
Same reason as always for stuff like this. "Because I'm the author and I say so!" That's what it feels like anyway. Some do try and find an in-universe justification. Very few make any sense at all.
Thank you for the thoughtful review, I'm glad you got something out of it and I appreciate the kind words.
5658619
I get that a lot! My username was chosen as a throwaway joke to amuse the friend I wrote my first throwaway stories for, and I wasn't blessed with the wit or foresight to write non stupid stories under a different name in case people were put off, as I didn't really think anyone would see them. Then my first SFW story got inducted into the Royal Canterlot Library and it was too late...
5658597
I don't feel as though this solution fits the context of the story. The character ran away from this stuff as a child, i.e. with a mind still in development. She's already in an emotional situation. Combine just these two elements and I can't imagine that approaching someone as intimidating as a princess is even on the radar. And if that's where she started out at and never got any emotional support afterwards due to her isolation, why should we ever expect her to muster up the courage to try as an adult?
5658608
5658670
Glad to see I'm not the only one to appreciate this story. Silver Spoon has always been one of my two favorite fillies (Scootaloo being the other), in part because of my particular headcanon for her. The Silver Standard came closer to matching it than I could reasonably expect any story to do, in particular her special talent that I predicted in a very old blog. But even ignoring that, it's just a well-written story that deserves all the praise it can get.
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I have great respect for ESL writers, even if a lot of times getting through their stories is a bit of a nightmare. I try very hard not to hold that against them. But even so, there are still hurdles to overcome. It's extremely easy to neglect that ESL writers aren't just learning a new language; they're coming from a completely different culture, and that affects how the plot of their stories develop. Some things that might make no sense to an American may seem perfectly rational to someone in, say, Russia. Or South Africa. Or England. If you don't know anything about where they come from, it can be difficult to impossible to identify a genuine logic error vs. a difference in culture. But I do the best I can, because above all else I want these people to succeed.
5658610
I'm not sure what you're referring to. Given your reaction, I'm not sure I want to.
5658718
But she does talk about why she doesn't as an adult. As an example, her relationship with her father. In a society geared toward people very conspicuously available for help, the main reason she implied she never did was because going to town to mail someone a letter would get her in close enough proximity to people that her ability would activate. But just go in the wee hours, when nobody's about, and you can drop a letter in a public box without encountering anyone.
Maybe you didn't read it that way, and death of the author and all that, but I did discuss this with the author, and he didn't claim the out you're describing, so I don't think that was the intent.
5658752
aside from how its a metaphorical story and that we couldnt just turn covid off
or that theyre so remarkably isolated that they savor a newspaper over the course of weeks
or that theyre a scared teenager emotionally tormented by their condition
or that they were readily attempting what did come to mind for the time we spent with them and being scared off by the consequences
or that the author may not have given you a full answer because you've nitpicked at them across multiple reviews
walking through the wilderness in the dark and not even knowing for sure if someone bothered to send the letter hardly sounds like something the protagonist is up and gunning to do when they've got so accustomed to living in fear and living alone
5658828
That's not at all the context of the discussion I had with the author. It was a private exchange and the first time I'd ever reviewed something of his. So please don't make assumptions.
5658829
Yeah, I know them too, and no, you're reaching to make yourself sound smart.
5658829
And that wasn't a review, that was a poorly designed hit job
5658722
5658598
You know what I really hate? ESL writers like Aragon and Daedalus Aegle who are objectively better at Englishing than I am!
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I'd like to take a moment to remind everyone to please remain civil in my blogspace. A debate is one thing, but this feels like it has the potential to escalate, and I'd appreciate it if everyone not jump head-first into the viper pit.
5658670
Honestly, if you hadn't said anything about it, I would absolutely not have guessed you weren't a native speaker based on this comment.
5658829
I'll be honest and say I don't remember this (I mean, obviously I remember there was a discussion when you were prereading for EQD, and I made a bunch of changes based on your feedback, but I'd be lying if I said I remembered the details).
I thought the story itself made it clear that this was meant to be a foolish decision of youth regretted at leisure, and that the author's note would clarify the underlying "moral" of the story (written for a contest on the theme of self isolation) was to encourage people in lockdown to reach out and not suffer in silence like the protagonist - but if anyone still feels that's a glaring plot hole that detracts from the main thrust of the story, go ahead! I'm fully aware I'm not a good writer and that my stories contain glaring mistakes, as has already previously been painstakingly highlighted. No need to go to the lengths of citing supposedly private correspondence to prove that point, it's readily conceded.
I don't know what made me feel comfortable enough to come back a couple of weeks ago, but I'm genuinely grateful to be reminded of why I left in the first place, and that my leaving a few months ago was the right decision for my mental health. Peace out.
5658859
I legit did not know that. Probably down to when I come into this community and having read far less of his blogs, only enough to garner he lives in Spain. Similar to hehelover, I'd have 100% vouched for English being his first language. Chalk up another reason to be impressed by him.
Aragon is an ESL writer?
Since I started reviewing myself, I've read maybe one ESL story (well, three thanks to Aragon, but even now my brain isn't really counting those). I'll admit, when I come across such stories that have issues, my internal knee-jerk reaction is "why don't you get an English-language editor to help polish it up?" Which, yeah, that's probably rude and unfair, and would also stunt the writer's ability to grow as an ESL fiction writer in the first place. So I never voice such an opinion.
Paul's right, though, mad respect to anyone trying it. Especially from me, who can barely do other languages at all; French was easily my weakest subject in school, though it didn't used to be – I had A's at age 13 and went down with every following year – so thank goodness my mild autism got me exempt from Irish). But if and when more stories like this get reviewed over my way, I'll do my best to not let it affect my weighing of them as works of art. Better for me, the author and the readers.
5658859
yes, what a bunch of inconsiderate jerks
5658909
Funny thing is that even when native speakers are telling me they can't tell from my comments that I don't speak English as my first language, I still remain more or less unsure about whether my English is good enough or not. Like you, I only just knew that Aragon's Spanish (makes sense in retrospect, considering Aragon is a region of Spain) from iisaw's comment. The big difference between him and me, I suppose, is that he seems absolutely confident that he can write as well as, or even better than the average native speaker. That's a mindset I don't think I'll ever have, though I don't know if that's just a personal/cultural difference, or that most ESL people around the world are also not very confident.
Come to think of it, being a native speaker doesn't mean you can speak/write the language better than a non-native speaker. Most of those terribly written stories here on Fimfic are written by English native speakers as well, and I'm reasonably sure that I can do a better job than them. In fact, I'll even say that ESL people can be excellent proofreaders: generally they can't read as fast as native speakers and have to be more attentive while reading, so they might do a better job at catching those mistakes.
5658917
Oh, for sure, goes without saying. I suppose the difference is that those fics are usually bad in content as well as technical writing too, and are obviously so from the outset, so most of us don't bother with them. Whereas the ESL fics we're talking about are clearly trying hard.
Also a very good point. And sure, we've all got our tics; in most circles I've written in, my writing can be a bit long-winded and ramble, and could do with being more concise. More in terms of the content and how I'm phrasing it then anything, and thankfully this doesn't apply to writing fiction, where I've laboured over it (at least for the more thoughtful, slower Ponyfic pieces I've written thus far; this fit might be tougher when I tackle faster-paced pieces). And it's something I've gotten better and better at controlling, even it's still not as brutally efficient as others to the point of being quickly accessible. How much of this stems from my autism, where reading and writing were quite the hurdle to get over in my youth, I cannot say. Not that it matters much here and now.
Irrespective of writing fiction with it, I'm always impressed at how readily others learn English, especially given it is reportedly a more difficult language to learn than other Latin languages. Most of my engineering team are Brazilian (Brazil just produces tons of software engineers, I don't know what it is), and while I never forget that in their speaking, plus work conferring via text chat isn't a good barometer for formal English sentence construction, there's hardly ever a moment where they're straining for the right word. Colour me impressed as ever!
5658933
In terms of pronunciation English is very hard, with its weird phonology and a non-standardized orthography, though without conjugations (which is a pain in the ass) I don't think it's harder than Latin languages grammatically speaking. European languages are generally similar so sometimes I wonder why lots of people from the States apparently find it hard to learn other European languages like French. Now, if you're trying to learn Chinese... Well, 99.9% of the Chinese population (myself included) don't really know how Chinese works, so good luck.
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Absolutely! I think that's because they've studied the rules and spelling of English. Despite the elementary English classes we native speakers get as children, we pretty much just pick it up as we go along and don't think about construction. When writing, most native speakers almost constantly confuse too, two, and to; then and than; their, there, and they're; etc. ESL folk hardly ever make those mistakes.
I think it's the way the languages are generally taught in American schools. It's as if you want to learn to drive a car, so the teacher starts by teaching you how to build an engine and what kind of rubber you have to use for the tires. Good knowledge to have, but it doesn't get you anywhere for a long time.
Personally, I use the Pimsleur method, which teaches languages in a more natural way, and gets me to a conversational level very quickly. The European languages* are easy to learn to speak and understand with that method. I don't get the "nuts-and-bolts" knowledge, but I can study that independently if writing letters (or fiction) becomes important to me.
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*They're mostly badly pronounced provincial Latin. If you toss in some random Early Medieval Germanic babble you get English!
5658979
The two parts of your comment form an interesting whole. Most people learn foreign languages in classrooms, without a real environment where said foreign language is being used predominantly. We learn it by comprehending its grammar structure, by memorizing its vocabulary and reciting example texts. This is especially true in China, a country famous for its rigid educational system and unforgiving school competition. Under this system, students with outstanding performances may know well how the language functions and can spot mistakes easily, but they aren't necessarily good at using the language. Heaven knows if I can really utter a single sentence in English as of now since the last time I really spoke in English was like 5 years ago. There's simply no need for that in my life. I read extensively (thanks to Fimfic) so at least I could write apparently well-written comments, something I should be grateful for.
As for native speakers, it just dawned on me that they make the mistakes you mentioned because they speak their mother tongue too well. They don't need to know whether it's "it's" or "its", they just know that they should make that sound and everything's good to go. But while writing you have to differentiate the two, that's when those who do not often concern themselves with the inner workings of their language may get confused. This also explains why people often misspell "weird", because let's face it: "wierd" really do match the pronunciation better. English orthography is a joke.
To sum up, I think it really comes down to one question: what are you using your second language for? If you just want to chat with foreign people, learn it the natural way and don't bother with grammar. Once you get the basics down, it's not like they can't understand you even if you may make loads of mistakes. But here on Fimfiction we're talking about writing literary works, and I think a good writer should have both the natural fluency and a deeper understanding of the language. Native speakers who knows well how their language works are certainly more common than people who can speak their second language as fluently as their native tongue, but maybe the gap isn't as big as one might expect.
(Speaking of which, I found authors on Fimfiction regularly mistake "bemused" for "amused", for this I still haven't find an explanation)
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It most certainly is! Have you ever heard the actual joke about an ESL person trying to figure out how to spell "fish" phonetically? He takes the "f" sound from "enough", the "i" sound from "women", and the "sh" sound from "action" to get "ghoti."
I think you're dead right about the different functions of types of language learning. The reason I like the Pimsleur method so much is because I travel a lot. I can get by in half a dozen languages if I'm asking directions, renting a flat, or buying something, but I can barely read in any except French, and I wouldn't attempt to write anything but a short note. That deeper understanding you mention really is important for composition, and that's why so many bilingual authors have their works translated even though they are seemingly fluent in their second language. Word choice and rhythm are a part of what makes effective, flowing prose, even in non-fiction. (The line between prose and poetry is a fuzzy one.)
I hadn't noticed the bemused/amused substitutions personally, but it may be that I automatically fixed those occurrences in my head as I read. I have noticed the use of "restive" as a synonym for "restful" rather than "restless," though. English has internal false cognasants! What a ridiculous language!
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I thought that "ghoti" was coined by Mark Twain but apparently I was mistaken. According to Wikipedia it first appeared in 1855, though lots of people thought Bernard Shaw invented it. Exquisite stuff, the word sure is.
Hmm, never really noticed "restive" and "restful", so maybe it's just another example of "once you discover it you start seeing it everywhere". I'd venture a guess that these internal faux amis, as well as many of the other oddities in the English language, comes down to the Norman Conquest. Normans brought their version of old French into Anglo-Saxon lands, but English still retained its Germanic roots. Latin-French vocabulary generally is perceived as more sophisticated and refined but it didn't replace the Germanic words. "Intelligent" is essentially a more formal way of saying "clever" but both are common, while in French there isn't such difference and you can always use intelligent. In your example, -ive is a Latin-French suffix and -ful is a Germanic suffix. Both words exist in modern English though in this case they mean opposite things. I often joke about English being a pre-colonialist Creole language because of this absurd parallel vocabulary system brought by invaders from across the sea.
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It is fascinating how much history is bound up in the language. I love the term "Pre-colonist Creole" and I'm going to use it as often as I can!
“Basically, English is what happens when Vikings learn Latin and use it to shout at Germans.”
~ Ken MacLeod
And by "Vikings" I think he meant Normans who were only a couple of generations removed from their scandinavian origins. I was amused to discover why so many places in Normandy had weird and un-French sounding names. It turns out that a lot of them are named after Norse gods! For example Audinghen, which is the best transliteration the French could manage for Odingehem (Odin's home.)
Also, I'm now wondering how many English words could be amusingly mangled by swapping out their suffixes. e.g. "comparaful" for "comparative." That actually might make for a great way to write dialogue for an unusual/foreign character.
Huh. Spellchecker did not highlight "comparaful." It's not in the Shorter OED, but I can find examples of it being used via Google.
Goddamnit, English!
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Thanks for your appreciation for this silly little term that I invented all by myself! I’m indeed very proud of it. And no, I’m not accepting “comparaful” as a proper English word. This is too much even for my taste. Though one has to admit that all languages have little quirks like this. They interact with each other and evolve constantly, which makes them unique, interesting and fun.
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When I finally finish working on that original fiction version of Guppy Love, I feel like I might have to ask one or both of you for opinions/recommendations regarding the language I've been developing for the merfolk.
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I'd be glad to!
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I’m no linguist but I’d love to try and see if I could contribute!