Discussion; Part 1
Twilight slept soundly on her bed, breath easily passing through her lips. Her slumber was dreamless, mind already overworked from the day she had just left behind. Nevertheless, a smile was set upon her lips, content and satisfied with what she had accomplished. Months of work to nearly a year of preparation, and she had finally managed to perfect a spell that no unicorn before had yet to explore.
Her head dug into her pillow, legs shuffling as her unconscious mind adjusted herself across the material. A small sigh left her lips, though her eyes were just as motionless as they had been through her sleep thus far.
A discomforting groan worked through her lips as something pushed against her, shaking her peaceful form. Her hooves rose to her head, covering her eyes as she attempted to lure her dreams back to her. Another pushed rocked her body, forcing her eyes to open begrudgingly.
They blinked, attempting sorely to wipe away the fuzz of sleep. Confusion topped her confusion as she realized her room was still dark and no light trying to squeeze through the blinds. Her foreleg moved forward, trying to grasp at the scales of Spike. It had to be Spike, there wasn’t any other pony that would wake her up by nudging her.
Then again, her little dragon had been her assistant long enough to know how to rouse the sleeping unicorn properly. It still involved a little pushing and nudging, but it also included little reminders of what she had to get done. As tired as she was, the only thing Twilight could hear was the sound of some pony breathing.
“Spike?” She spoke the dragon’s name questioningly, a yawn forcing her jaw open to its fullest as she did. Her back arched to stretch itself. “It’s not morning yet. What’s wrong?” Twilight reached her forehoof out, hoping to at pet Spike on his head.
As soon as she felt fur instead of scales, she knew something was wrong.
Adrenaline started to work through the webs of her mind, batting them aside as she brought herself to full consciousness. One blink more and Twilight was able to see the stranger in her room. Even with the low level of lighting in her room, it was easy for her to see the prismatic mane over the blue fur of a pegasus.
Dash was sitting by her bed side, her face unreadable. Twilight didn’t know if it was the darkness in her room or something else entirely. She hoped for the former, but she suspected the latter. Twilight opened her mouth to speak, but Dash lightly trotted away, shocking the already shaken unicorn. Rainbow, however stopped.
She turned when she was more than a few hooves away from Twilight’s bed, leaving room for the unicorn to move out from under covers. With her eyes still glued to her friend, Twilight did just that, slowly letting her hooves touch down on the wood of her floor. The light clopping of her hooves was the only sound that filled the room, and it worried Twilight immensely.
Then, finally, Rainbow spoke.
“Twi… We gotta talk.”
Twilight didn’t know what scared her more. The hour at which Rainbow had woken her up or the almost-submissive tone of the pegasus. Neither one paid her conscious any good mind.
“Rainbow, what’s wrong? Did something happen?” The unicorn trotted towards her friend, lifting a hoof to lay across the pegasus’s side.
She froze when Dash lightly pushed it away. Twilight didn’t know what to say, an uncomfortable pain building inside of her.
“Yeah,” the pegasus answered. “Something did happen.” Instead of answering with words, Dash motioned towards Twilight’s sides.
Twilight followed her hoof, eyes stopping on the pair of wings gripped at her side. They shivered as she looked at them.
“My wings?” Twilight questioned, carefully extending them outwards as she spoke. Twilight wished that the pain she saw flash through Rainbow’s eyes was just her imagination. “How… how do you know about them?”
“Scootaloo,” Rainbow answered simply, far too simply to be comfortable for Twilight. “She found me just a few hours ago, started showing me how easy it was for her to fly… how easy it was with your magic… how she didn’t even have to try.” Twilight’s mouth was drying fast.
“Isn’t that a good thing?” Twilight ventured. “I mean, she and her friends volunteered to help me, and I made absolutely sure it was safe before casting the spell on them. Do you know how she got them?”
“Yeah,” Rainbow replied, passive as before. “From the same spell you cast on Rarity for the Young Flier’s competition. You gave them to Apple Bloom and Sweetie Belle, too.” Twilight rotated her lips, unsure of how to respond. Dash was right, but the… snide tone to which she spoke did nothing but put Twilight off.
“That’s right,” she admitted. “Spike and I have been working on this for months. We were only just recently able to figure out how to make it work properly. It requires a mental thought to which the pony in question is focused on during the time of the spell’s activation. It’s likely that this thought alters the pathways of the mind necessary to facilitate the wing growth necessary to-”
Twilight stopped as a hoof was held out in front of her.
“That’s… enough Twi,” Dash shook her head as she spoke. The unicorn couldn’t disagree that she felt off put by the actions, but per her friend’s request she stopped. “I just… do you know, like, really know what this did?”
Twilight’s brows furrowed themselves as she thought hard on the question. Through all of her careful testing and research, she was aware of just about every side affect of the spell from its duration to magical level necessary to complete. It gave wings to ponies who didn’t have them, likely increased the flying capabilities of those that did, and to top it off, had a high likelihood of experimentation to see what wings fit each pony best, from size, weight, and even number of if Scootaloo was any indication. But for the life of her, Twilight could not think of why Dash would be so scared of such scenarios.
“I… I know what I did,” the unicorn began, trailing her sentence of. “But I’m not sure what has you so worried.” As the ideas naturally flowed through her mind, Twilight latched onto the first one.
“Wait, did Scootaloo get hurt?” Her voice carried nothing but worry. Said fears died though when Dash shook her head. Her concern did not, however, as Rainbow continued to wear the same placid face.
“She’s fine,” the pegasus spoke with a scoff. “As fine as any pony can be for having all their hard-work being given away.” What Twilight hoped was that Dash’s words would have enlightened her. Instead, they only served to confuse her even further.
“What does that mean?” From the sneer Rainbow gave her, Twilight could only assume her friend was waiting for those words.
“What do I mean?” She repeated back. “I mean how you took away Scootaloo’s hard work with a single spell!” Her shout made the unicorn jump, her faux-wings expanding at the startle. The sight of them infuriated Rainbow further. “You cast some stupid spell that literally put everything she was working towards in second place. In a single moment, you gave her wings to fly with instead of letting her train on her own!”
Twilight was shivering. Dash screaming was nothing new to her. It only took a poke at her pride to get the pegasus yelling in her defense. But this? This was completely different. Dash wasn’t defending herself. She wasn’t arguing how great she was.
Rainbow was attacking Twilight.
“B-But Dash,” the unicorn stuttered out. “I… All I did was help her in the best way that I could. I mean, right now she only has a simple knowledge of how to fly. She still has to train herself, just like before.”
“Don’t you get it?!” Rainbow slammed her hooves on the flooring as she yelled. “She can’t learn how to fly better! She doesn’t know how! Your stupid spell taught her how to fly, now she has no idea how to teach herself! It would be like asking Applejack to make a new dress when all she knows are what they’re supposed to look like!”
Dash was in Twilight’s face, her eyes narrowed into slits and lips pulled upwards into a snarl. Shivering breaths were being taken in by the unicorn and huffs of air were being released by the pegasus. They stared at one another, one enraged and the other terrified. Then, with a scoff, Dash turned from the unicorn.
“Twi,” she began again, far softer than just before. “I know you casting new spells isn’t anything I should be surprised about. I’m not. What I am kinda shocked at is just… how you didn’t think of what this would do. Were you too wrapped up in your studies to even think a step ahead?”
Twilight was being careful. Rainbow was clearly holding herself back right now, doubtlessly wanting to berate the unicorn some more. But Dash had self-control, used only when she most needed it. And Twilight, thankfully, has wisdom. She knew not to press a dangerous button or try and play a word game.
“I never thought of what kind of damage this could do.” Twilight admitted, giving her friend ground. “But Dash, that’s because there’s very little that this can hurt. Please hear me out.” She spoke the words in a rush, seeing her friend’s eyes widen with a retort burning on her lips. When Dash shut her mouth tightly, Twilight continued.
“I was researching the Wing Spell to see if I could properly use it again with less risk to the pony it was being casted on. Over the weeks however, I found my affinity for it increased and casting became easier.” Dash didn’t miss a beat.
“Then why didn’t you stop there? It’s not like you don’t have enough to do?” Ignoring the barb, the unicorn answered.
“Because I wanted to know how it worked. Like you said, its one thing to be able to use something, but it’s something else entirely to understand how it works. I wanted to find out why it created different kinds of wings and why the creatures who had the spell casted on them knew how to fly almost immediately. That’s a natural progression of thought and research.”
“Then you should have started thinking about something else.” Rainbow shot back without hesitation. “Cause you have no idea how bad those wings are.”
“Dash,” Twilight began, her voice imploring. “You know I can’t just throw away something as ground-breaking as this just because there may be a few issues with it.” Her head shook as she tried to smile. It was a vain act. “Rainbow, nothing has ever been made without a few issues.”
“And what like this has been made before?” Dash asked back, trotting closer to the unicorn. Twilight wished it was the usual stout posture her friend usually had, full of pride and energy. Right now, she could have passed for Crankey without his wig. “I’m all for new things Twi. I couldn’t stand the idea of never trying new things. That’s half the fun of living! But those?” Her hoof pointed at Twilight’s extended wings. The unicorn pulled them back reflexively. “Those are going to change a lot more than a few expectations.”
“Like what?” Twilight challenged, feeling her coat bristle slightly as her nerves were tweaked. “I can understand there is a high possibility for training involving this spell being required, licenses likely being a possibility. There’s also a great chance that it drastically change the flight schools in Cloudsdale. Other than that, I can only see great things happening.”
“Then you’re dumb.” The comment was so blunt, Twilight wasn’t sure how to respond.
“I-I’m what?” Dash didn’t need any more than that to continue.
“I said you’re dumb if you can’t see how bad this could get.” The unicorn opened her mouth to argue, but was silenced as the pegasus rapidly extended her wings, taking the few trots necessary to stand nose-to-nose with the mare. “These wings, I was born with them. I trained them every single day since the moment I could fly. Everything they can do is possible only because I put the effort into it. It’s the exact same thing with your magic.”
To push her point, Dash pushed Twilight’s horn. The unicorn yelped at the contact, unready for the sudden force. Her neck bent with the push, her wings flapping to draw her back. It made Rainbow snarl, arguable the first sign of her old-self since she set hoof in Twilight’s library.
“You read just about every book in Canterlot before you were half as good at magic as you are now. You weren’t just born with it, you made it yourself.” Twilight swallowed at the words, unable to deny what her friend was saying. “Just like my wings, and just like any of our friends. Rarity and her dresses, Fluttershy and her animals, Applejack and her farm, heck, even Pinkie Pie and her parties. I’m not gonna say there was never any talent, but I could fly circles around my filly self and your head’s probably twice as full since you were little.”
“Dash,” Twilight started patiently. “What’s your point?”
“My point?” The pegasus snorted to the side before answering. “None of us got anything, we earned it.” It wasn’t enough for Twilight.
“And I didn’t just stumble across this Dash,” she argued in turn. “I’ve been studying this spell for weeks, working out every little detail about it to make sure that it works properly.” The longer she spoke, the faster the pegasus’s head shook.
“I’m not talking about just this Twilight,” Rainbow seethed. “I’m talking about years here. Years of hard work, training, studying, and making sacrifices for the sake of improving yourself! Your stupid spell just took all all of that from Scootaloo and possibly every other pegasus younger than her.”
“You’re not making any sense.” Twilight replied back, her normally broad patience being worn. “Like you’ve already said, she’s been training for so long. This spell gives her just what she needs to be able to fly now. Now, you can teach her the rest.” The phrase was supposed to stroke Rainbow’s Ego. Instead, the pegasus deftly turned it back and slapped it across the unicorn’s face with a single question.
“What can I train her to do that your spell can’t give her?”
The words struck Twilight hard, stopping her cold. Dash saw it and, much like her nature, she drove it home.
“I get you were trying to help her. That’s what you do Twi, it’s what you’ve done since the moment you came here. But now you’ve gone and helped too much.” The pegasus looked out into the night sky as she spoke on. “Fillies and colts won’t ask for flying lessons, they’ll ask for your magic. They won’t need special training, they’ll need special unicorns. They won’t need me, they’ll need you.”
The silence that fell over the room was unbearable. It weighed down on the unicorn and choked the throat of the pegasus. They both continued to stare at one another both looking for what to say, but neither able to conjure up an answer.
“Do you think…” Twilight began to speak, if only to beat away the tension of the hush. “That will really happen? My spell will, effectively, remove the need for pegasi?”
Dash slowly took in a breath of air, most likely to calm her agitated nerves. Her heart wanted her to scream the answer, to make sure Twilight couldn’t possibly ignore her. But her mind told her to do otherwise. And, she was speaking to Twilight Sparkle, so she did as her mind suggested.
“Your spell, Twilight, will replace just about every major field of work that pegasi are needed for. It will make us next to useless compared to the unicorns that can cast the spell or the earth ponies that that can grow any kind of food. All we pegasi have are our wings. If those can just be given away, then what use is their in training them?”
Dash could see the unicorn shake in the darkness, her eyes wide as plates and mind likely frayed. It was odd to Rainbow, even through her curtain of now hardly-concealed rage. She wanted to make sure Twilight understood exactly what she had just done, but she couldn’t help but think she may have done something more.
“Rainbow,” Twilight spoke her name carefully, softly, coldly. “I… I need time to think. Can you please go?” The pegasus stared down at her.
“Please, go find Scootaloo. I… I-I need to think about this.” With a sigh, Rainbow relented.
“Fine,” Dash allowed, already trotting towards the window as she spoke. She stopped just before the windowsill. “But Twilight, please think about this. I don’t want everything to change.”
With a beat of her wings, she was gone, leaving Twilight alone in her room to ponder.
And to think, all the unicorn wanted was to share the sky with Dash.
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I tought that pegasus were made special by their abilities to afect clouds, something that the wing spell doesn't give, if I recall correctly.
Ugh, Dash the Conservative. This chapter almost leaves a sour taste in my mouth. The whole argument kinda reminds me of the industrialization.
Hmm...
While Dash has a point...
I think she could have been... More tactful about it.
~Skeeter The Lurker
I can see where Dash is coming from... and yet at the same time I can't help but sneer, "Cry me a river, Dash..." A petulant thing who doesn't like change...
I'm... not terribly sure how far that argument will get her. By that logic, any sort of spell which enhances one's abilities is dangerous and destructive.
3679367
You could replace her argument with quite a few more easily enough as well..
"You can't use devices to mass produce new things! It'll put the guilds out of work!"
Not to mention breaking into her home early in the morning, almost physically assaulting her considering the force between hitting her horn, and overall being crude, rude and abrasive and nearly yelling at her after walking in and scaring Twilight half the death..
3679367 its not that she doesn't like change. Just imagine if you were the only one who could drive a car. that's all you know how to do and that's all anyone in you family has ever done because that's all they are able to do. Nobody else can drive a car but they can drive boats and planes. YOU cant drive boats or planes, therefore you have to rely on the people who can. Now imagine that all those people who can only drive boats or planes can suddenly also drive cars. They would never need you or your family ever again and your family would eventually be seen ass useless and die out because you can't do anything else. It's not that you don't WANT to. You CAN'T. That is what rainbow is afraid of.
3679449
So basically, because they cannot adapt, things should not change?
So I just read every argument against automation in industry that were mentioned in various history classes.
Wait? Did Rainbow Dash say something logical? Something that is to be worried about? I did not see that coming.
3679457 Not that things shouldn't change. Just that they should be careful about what changes and how much those changes affect. She's not mad about the spell so much as she is mad about the fact that twilight didn't think it through. the fact that she's scared her entire race could become obsolete doesn't help things. The unicorns can already control the weather, and the earth ponies are already stronger than the pegasi. The only real reason it fall to the pegasi to control the skies is because they can fly. the unicorns could move more clouds at a time and with less energy. The earth ponies could work longer and do more ,as far as clearing clouds and controlling storms goes, if they could fly. Therefore if every unicorn could do it then if would not only take all power from the pegasi ponies, but it would also disturb the balance of powers and responsibilities between the three types of ponies and could lead to the unicorns taking over and treating the other races like crap beneath there hooves. And the other two races wouldn't be able to do anything about it thereby leading to the collapse of all values and balance in Equestria as they know it. This could leave it vulnerable to attacks from other creatures(i.e. changelings, windigoes, griffins, etc.), and the elements of harmony wouldn't work due to there not being any harmony. And it would all have started due to Twilight not thing before she acted.
3679586
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope
That's all that reads to me as, but if her research continues she might eventually find a way to give magic to everyone, find how to give the strength to all, a society not based around limitations but rather on one's own personal skill.
If all you're good for is because others aren't allowed into it, can you really be called skilled however? All the things give you is WINGS! They don't grant cloud manipulation or the other pegasi goodies yet.
Also I'll quote myself from much earlier for my thoughts on what might end up happening.
I'm not sure if I should be offended by the argument Dash put forth or not.
Seeing as that's classic Slipper Slope logic that VERY RARELY comes true based on paranoia (Celestia would never allow pegasai to be "replaced") and irrational fear (the spell DOES NOT give ponies the ability to use pegasus magic, it just gives them wings). THAT BEING SAID, it's quite a Dash-like argument, though I think even she'd realize those two points fairly easily.
I mean the spell is Red Bull. Not a photocopy of the Necronomicon, right?
3679687 Ahhh, but that's where you go wrong. Twilight isn't accessing Pegasus magic. She is simply using unicorn magic to make wings. She isn't giving them any other kind of magic. She couldn't create a useable horn for an earth pony, just as she couldn't give a Pegasus the strength of an earth pony. Pony magic comes from within and the only ones who can wield more than one type without overloading themselves are the alicorns.
Also while your "Slippery Slope" theory may apply to the "end of Equestria" part, it does not completely apply. The facts are set and include a middle ground. Regardless of weather or not the unicorns went power hungry, the pegasi would still be rendered obsolete. It was already proven by Rarity (during the cutie mark mix-up) that unicorns can control the weather and there is already a cloud walking spell.
On the other hand, even if she was able to mix different magics, that would still give more power to the unicorns, as they would be the only ones able to cast the spell in the first place.
Aaaand Rainbow shows her reactionary side right on cue.
I can't find much sympathy with her, though - nor for any other Luddite. Okay, that's a harsh label - she hasn't burnt down Twilight's library. Yet.
I have to side with dash, twilight is using a spell that rewrites basic NEUROLOGY to give you the instinct to fly. Her choice of first sentient test subjects is criminally irresponsible, i'm not sure about the industrial or societal effects of a spell that twilight sparkle might be the only one capable of casting, but the personal effects of using such a spell on a developing mind.... Dashes first argument isn't that spell makes pegasus's obsolete, even if that is her knee jerk instinctual fear, her first issue is that it may have crippled Scootaloo's ability to fly without the spell, which you know is a possibility when you cast mind altering magic on kids.
Rainbowfag being jelly. O- o no, you can skip hard work with magic! Taught you still need to practice using the new wings anyway. The spell is jut giving back an instinct that every pegasus baby has. O noes! This will make all pegasus as worthless as earth ponies!
If the pegasus had proper training from childhood, they should be able to fly(at least chicken style glide) all the time. For some reason they have lost that ability(?).
This is "The calculator you invented will make all the asians useless/jobless" level of stupid.
Yes it makes your job easier when you have it. But working a bit to be able to do same ting without it , all the time? Its still a ting most ponies will do.
3679423>>3679357 In the original draft of this chapter, she did physically assualt Twilight and her words were so harsh that they left her a shivering, weeping ball on the floor. And we were supposed to think she was right. I stopped it by threatening to resign as Wiz's editor, because I was mad. Rectifying this is why this chapter has taken months to produce. Wiz has had to find a way for their to be conflict without pissing people off or making Rainbow completely illogical in this line of thinking. It isn't easy, but I think he can do it.
In one hand, you really give us a xmax gift.... in the other hand, it was a trojan horse, christmas is about Happiness and family, not sad and old way x evolution discuss. Damn you, I want Twi cuddling with Dash, am I asking too much?
Jokes asides, very good chapter and I hope more to come, and as always nicely done.
Merry christmas WoW
Dash has a tendency to annoy me anyway, but rarely have a felt the need to punch her in the face this acutely.
3680033
That isn't what she's saying at all. She's worried Scootaloo (and others) wouldn't want to put in the effort anymore because magic can give it to them quick and easy.
3680213
...What
Not to mention she's already illogical in her type of thinking to begin with, her attitude so far is still 'Broke into a home, verbally assaulted, nearly physically assaulted' and if Twilight called the police ponies she'd still have a decent case.
3679875
If they can already control an entire ecosystem from the ground, I doubt they'd need wings to do it anyways. So they are already useless
But I'm more thinking about what the potential benefits of Twilights research could bring.
3680257 Well, yeah, she's hardly the paragon of logic at the best of times, but at least she's still somewhat sympathetic now in that she's more afraid and less hate-crime-ing.
3680266
I'd probably feel more sympathy if she had picked a decent hour rather then woke her up half scared in the middle of the night, seething in anger, being straight insulting and overall being..this.
It's one thing to be fearful, it's another to look like a raging bull being held back from beating you upside the head. Twilight was already scared to death that someone broke in, and then she had to word herself correctly because she could tell she's less fearful and more pissed and didn't want to provoke her.
3680272 I didn't say she was sympathetic, I said that she was more sympathetic. Her previous behaviour was downright criminal and close to a Moral Event Horizon.
3680281
True enough I suppose.
FINALLY
, she gets to the point
and THAT right there is the biggest pile of BULL.... that I've ever seen and no I am NOT speaking of piles of real bull.... I'm talking about the bosses and supervisors at the meatpacking plant I work at! the term "money talks, Shit floats" explains EXACTLY why USDA hasn't shut the place down. all Twilight's spell can do is give a pony wings and the basics on how to use them. what it does NOT do, is teach the pony what can be done with them!
, what is NOT do is done is that they are not given the skill to keep from smashing their hand into pulp
same thing here
let's use this analigy, someone is given a hammer. now they can pound nails into to stuff
otherwise not to bad a chapter I guess, since it leads to a interesting couple of follow-up chapters
Now, Twilight needs to make a spell that can give the strength of an earth pony to a pegasus or unicorn, and another that can give them horns and access to magic. That would nullify Rainbow's argument, and give Twilight something to defend herself with.
3680217
My spell resurrected you in the comments section! Woohoo!
Dash is being stupid.
And this chapter exasperates the reason why Rainbow is my least favorite pony.
You know, if her argument was purely about having to learn to fly rather than flight being just given out, I could accept her point as reasonable and something to consider, but once she started on the whole "but think of the consequences!" thing, she went from arguably in the right to blatantly wrong and excessively paranoid.
Yeah, I still have zero sympathy for RD here for the reasons already mentioned. Personally, I don't even feel her Scootaloo argument holds any real water.
Perhaps some counter points are in order. Points like "how long did it take Twilight, one of the brightest, most powerful unicorns of her time, to create and master this spell? How long would it take a less skilled, less powerful unicorn to learn? Could a less skilled unicorn even cast the spell successfully?"
Even if all those things ended up going against pegasi, it would not destroy their role in society. If, for no other reason, than that even if everyone could do the work, it doesn't mean everyone wants to or has the capacity to do it. Hell, it may even open up opportunities for pegasi.
Would it shift the table away from pegasi? Probably. Will it destroy their place in society? Definitely not.
3679300
3679834
3680288
3680897
For all those who say that pegasi roles would be safe because wings don't convey weather manipulation... How long until a simple cloud walking spell is added, for safety if nothing else? If you can walk on clouds and have wings, then you can push them around; which is most, if not all, of the pegasi weather control.
So yea, she's basically putting together a spell that would make earth- or unicorn-pegasus hybrids. If this catches on and becomes accessible, then, yes... pegasi would eventually become a crippled race, having access to only half the magic of the other two.
That being said, should this knowledge be repressed? It is definitely progress. But at the potential cost of a third of the population, care and caution should definitely be used.
As for Dash's other point, I'm behind her 100%. Who would bother to learn how to fly when a spell just plants the knowledge up there? It's like giving a 16 year old a cheat sheet on a drivers test and then handing them the keys. Or another car metaphor - having a mechanic that never learned what a carburetor is, but has an app that will walk him through fixing one. And if you can't see the issue with the above scenarios, then I hope to never share a road with you.
And then there's the primary part of that argument... the one that Twilight simply can't seem to grasp. She has just stolen Scootaloo's accomplishment. Nothing is sweeter than a victory hard won. That filly put a ton of effort into learning to fly, and Twilight starts handing out wings left and right. That's like training for a competition for years, putting in hours of your time every day - then the day of the competition, it's called off and everyone is given a first place medal. Even the spectators.
So, yea. Everyone's hating on Dash here for being a reactionary, but I'm behind her in this.
3683535
One more thing - for the VERY valid argument of how likely this spell is to become widely used:
Yes, the development is something that took a genius prodigy to tackle. But once the spell is documented and published, it's a simple plug and play. It's like chemistry or calculus. Once it's developed, you don't have to understand it to use it, all you need is the ingredients and enough power to make it work. And if one average unicorn can't, then what's to prevent several from pooling their power?
3685275
Bingo on that one. The prototype is always the hard part. Once you've got the perfect prototype, then you can mass produce the buggers all you want.
Now, I agree that Rainbow's approaching this badly. Gee, Rainbow not the epitome of tact and restraint?
Who'd have thought!
However, her point isn't pure slippery slope, nor is it purely a reflection of industrialization. We've seen in the show that a single unicorn can handle the weather for the entire town. A single untrained unicorn. They handled it badly, but they could handle it. This would seem to reflect the industrialization angle - what good is all of that specialized knowledge and such when you can just churn out cheap copies by the cartload?
Well, there's a more important issue here. What Twilight has done is to unlock the potential for functional wings in any creature. The potential to, suddenly, have the gift of flight... without training.
How often does Rainbow crash into things as it is? Despite being a flight expert?
Sure, she's pushing her limits. But imagine that, suddenly, everypony *thinks* they can be Rainbow Dash with a spell. Twilight's basically just discovered how to put the keys to a Porsche in everypony's grasp, teach them where the gas pedal and the brakes are, and say "good luck!"
They gain the basic ability to fly. They do not gain the sort of experience and specialized knowledge that comes with learning how to do it. You're putting kids who are just starting their Driver's Ed courses into formula-one racers and telling them to go have fun. If you can't see how this is a potentially Very Bad Thing, I've got two words for you.
Paul Walker.
Similarly, this is *the exact reason* it would be disastrous for Twilight to develop spells that allowed unicorn magic without training, or Earth Pony strength and durability - you'd suddenly be living in the middle of a world filled with ponies who have *very dangerous abilities* and insufficient training to know how to properly control those abilities. I'm not worried about Pegasi becoming obsolete with this spell - I'm worried about unicorns and earth ponies becoming extinct!
3685275
Here, I have to disagree. There are some spells that, while clearly well documented, aren't, or don't appear to be, in widespread use (e.g. teleportation). As I touched on, it's entirely possible that the spell may be too difficult to learn or too difficult to cast. Sure, you could do any of those things, but, if it's more economical to just get a pegasus, why would you go through the trouble?
3685361
I'm going to have to break this down a little to address it properly.
It was also a reflection of her cutie mark and the fact she wasn't supposed to have it. I imagine that a unicorn that legitimately trained in weather manipulation could perform the task as well as Rainbow Dash. This argument is would be no different if you replaced "unicorn" with "pegasus". A single untrained pegasus could handle the weather for an entire town. They wouldn't do a very good job either.
How often does Rainbow crash when she's not practicing or attempting some trick?
I refer you to my argument with Aburi. I seriously doubt such a thing would be legitimately possible. Even if it were possible for everypony to have wings, what's to say that everypony will want wings? Most of the arguments for Rainbow seem to imply that everypony will be completely okay with getting wings magically and want to have those wings themselves.
Is a terrible example because he wasn't the driver of the car and was actually a very competent driver who did race cars professionally.
The rest of your argument rings similarly and I have the same counter arguments.
All in all, this is one of those things that we could argue back and forth all day on. Our disagreement, ultimately, comes down to two questions "how easy is this spell to learn?" and "how easy is this spell to use?" Without knowing those two things, we can't come to any reasonable conclusion that isn't pure conjecture. Beyond that, we'd also need answers to the question "what other abilities, beyond flight, does the spell provide?"
3685275
Aren't you forgetting about Cutie Marks? Unicorns can only use magic based around their special talent. Remember, Twilight is the exception, not the rule. Even if she perfected the spell, only a small fraction of unicorns would be able to cast it. Especially when you consider that the special talents needed to cast it are more likely to be gotten by pegasi than Unicorns anyway. Spells don't get mass produced in MLP, they just don't.
Forgetting for a second, that there is likely a lot more to pegasi than that (we've seen Dash take a dive into the ground and only sprain her wing, and Derpy take lightning bolts and be ok) then your suggesting taking what is already a complex and powerful spell (for normal unicorns) and making it more complicated, or making the unicorn have to cast a second spell. That would seriously impact this spells ability to be used on a wide scale. Even if it was commercialized, the rarity of Unicorns that can cast the spell means that the price would be exorbitant. That means that only unicorn nobility could gain wings, and only the richer pegasi could afford to get their kids the shortcut (which when you think about it probably isn't all the different from how it would be now, since the rich can send their foals to the best schools with the best resources).
Furthermore, just because Twilight created this spell, doesn't mean it would ever even become widely available. Starswirls most powerful spells were locked away, even though almost every unicorn wouldn't be able to cast them. What's to say this spell won't be locked away and only used by trusted professionals in special circumstances (i.e. to restore flight to an injured pegaus)
Problems with the chapter itself?
As I said, magic doesn't work that way in MLP. I can understand why lots of writers keep forgetting that, since Twi is the only magic-centred character we ever really interact with, but it's specifically stated, Unicorn magic is linked directly to special talent. You can only train someone to use the spell if they have the Cutie Mark for it.
And Twilight is entirely capable of saying no. She only cast the spell on the CMC because they were test subjects. Nothing is forcing her to cast it on every pony that asks.
On a slightly related note, While I don't agree with Dash, I think she was written fairly in character in this chapter. She was reactionary, emotional, a little paranoid but at least with some basis in logic. That's how I imagine an upset Dash to act. What bothered me was Twilight. She was presented by an argument that any logical person could poke holes in and just sat there submissive the entire time. You can't even argue that she was too upset that her friend was attacking her, she clearly starts to get angry and go more on the offensive but doesn't mention any of the obvious counters to dash's points
3687100
I feel that one single word used in your argument invalidates the whole thing:
The word can. This is like saying a baker is incapable of learning to make soup. Yes, in the cartoon, Twilight monologs on how unicorns typically only learn a narrow range of magic. But she never says that they can't, and to believe that their cutie marks chain them to only being ably to perform a single set of activities... well, I would then pity anyone with a mark.
And by you own argument, this would be a very profitable endeavor. I can't imagine there wouldn't be a herd of unicorns ready to step outside of their comfort zones to make an easy fortune, thereby reducing the price and making it more widespread.
Also:
and we've seen twilight take a piano to the skull with no injury either.
Edit:
I'm not sure if you realize it, but this paragraph is actually agreeing with me
3687183 here's the issue with that, though: Would you hire a unicorn/earth pony with a semi-usable wing spell cast upon them, or a pegasus? That's like asking a cripple pushing themself on a skateboard to deliver your mail over a runner. Or a hydrogen blimp to do it over a horse when the distance is only a few kilometres. The question is not just how many can cast it, but how many can cast it well and how much money they could make out of doing it versus hiring a natural born pegasus.
3687183
Boast Busters
Twilight specifically states magic is related to cuties marks, and that it takes someone with a talent like hers to do what she does. I'm not saying they don't exist, only that they're likely rare. Also, I love that Twilight specifically mentions cooking. Kinda invalidates your analogy doesn't it?
A Dog And Pony Show
Rarity is the only one who knows how to find gems. Twilight is able to copy it, only Twilight. I can't imagine Rarity would never, I don't know, show the spell to others and get them to dig the gems up for her. As it stands, she has to go there herself (and then get someone to dig them up) showing that she cant teach someone else (except Twi but she's probably busy)
Yes....so? That doesn't invalidate my point. A group of businessmen trying to make lots of money by offering a service at an exorbitant cost is not going to cause any of the changes Dash is talking about. As I said, it could affect the rich only. Unless you're implying that the businessmen could somehow make more of the rare unicorns to cast the spell, they're still limited by the number of unicorns that can cast it, keeping prices up and lowering social impact.
It doesn't mean they can only do what their cutie mark is, just that that is what their magic will be focused around. Besides, you're forgetting that in the MLP universe, the cutie mark represents what they want to do. I'm pretty sure I know what my cutie mark would be because its what I'm most passionate about, it isn't the only thing I like, but it is what I want to do with my life.
Its probably not impossible for a unicorn with a cutie mark unrelated to the spell to cast it, but I imagine the further away it is, the harder it is. And again, there would be unicorns who could cast it, probably a fair amount, but nowhere near the level needed to commercialize it on a wide scale or cause anywhere near the level of social damage Dash is talking about
That analogy is terrible. A unicorn baker could easily learn to make soup, they just wouldn't be able to use their "instantly bake bread" spell to make it. Hell, exactly how much magic do you think a baker would need. I mean seriously, watch MLP. How much day to day magic other than telekinesis (Which every unicorn has) is actually used? I think you're overstating the importance of magic in a unicorns life, again, understandable given Twilight is a main character, but still
Also, you missed one point I had
What's stopping that from happening? Do you assume that Twilight will instantly try to capitalize on her plan?
3687296
Obviously we have some fundamental disagreements on the nature of magic and how it relates to MLP, so given that nothing I say has any hope of swaying you, I'm going to drop this conversation.
Also, I added an edit afterwords. I didn't really feel a need to bring that last point up because you were supporting my argument.
3687262
Try looking at it this way instead - how much money would you pay to have perfect wings? And once you had them, why not go for any job you wish to do?
One of the key points about this spell is that it's complete. It gives perfectly functional wings that perfectly match the pony they are given to. Plus, we have seen no time limit yet, Twi may be able to make them permanent.
3687383
I'm sorry, but I fail to see how it supports your argument. All I was saying is that we know of spells that, despite their inability to be used by the majority of unicorns, have access to them regulated by the government for safety, and that there is no reason Twilight wouldn't do this with it. How is that supporting anything you said, unless I missed something. By all means, explain to me what theory of yours this supports.
I quoted the freaking show, you quoted fanon and your own personal theories. What we seem to be disagreeing on, is whether the show should be used as source for things based on the show. If you want to operate under fanon, that's fine, do whatever you like. But don't try to convince me your opinion supersedes the facts of the show.
3687262
That is a very good point you raise. It also counters Dash's point about Pegasus foals taking the quick way out, since a life of training is what would give them an advantage over ponies who have used this spell (since it only gives you basic flight knowledge)
3687397
You didn't get Knights comment at all, did you. If a pony had the money to pay for wings, then chances are, they already have a well paying job, or were born into money. That's why Knight implied it was the employer paying for the wings, because its patently ridiculous for someone to get wings just for a job. And the wings themselves may be perfect, but the spell only gives you basic knowledge of flight, not the experience of a Pegasus. There is no real incentive for an employer to hire a unicorn with wings over a Pegasus, unless the job required magic and was in the sky, at which point, the employer would have hired a unicorn anyway (and figured a way to get them in the air), thus not depriving a Pegasus of a job
3687468
Yes, I fully understand knights comment. I also understand the spell we are discussing, as well as cause and effect and basic economics.
None of the above seem to have made it into any of your arguments, and you have shown a very limited understanding of mine.
Quite frankly, I'm tired of arguing with someone who has displayed such limited ability to comprehend.
i dont know what you all are arguing about respect everyponies own cannon, and the spell would remove the need for pegasi as there would not be any need for the YEARS of training money is not the issue
3687542
You know what? No, I'm not going to let it go. Both of your last comment to me amounted to nothing more than broad insults with no actual substance. You say I cant comprehend, them help me
As I said, if you had the money to pay for the wings, that implies you were either born into money or have a good job. Why would you then leave that job and apply for another that your new wings allow you to, when there is already a large workforce of experience pegasi and you have only the base knowledge the spell imparts. Who will hire you? Explain where the flaw here is, instead of just stating its wrong and leaving.
Then by all means enlighten me! What have I gotten wrong about the spell? That it imparts only basic knowledge of flight? That's really the only aspect of the spell that ever made it into my arguments. And that's stated in this chapter. What did I get wrong about cause and effect or basic economics? I admit, I'm no expert on the matter, but If I have gotten such a basic fact about these wrong, it would behove you to explain how I'm wrong, instead of making baseless accusations, insulting my higher-order thinking and then running away like a coward
I'll be honest, this comment more than any has pissed me off. I could pass of the previous comments as merely a heated debate. But this was a flat out insult. If you had really wanted to end this argument, you could have just said that you don't think we'll ever see eye to eye and then dropped it. Instead you insult me and dismiss everything I've said.
3687645
Okay, since you insist.
First off, I did not insult you until my most recent comment. Before that I simply stated that our viewpoints were incompatible.
However, since you can't seem to let the topic drop, I will break things down for you. First I will go back a little:
Here is your original statement:
And here is my key argument that you were supporting from my original post:
You gave a good example of caution and checks being implemented on the developed spell. Which is exactly what I was suggesting.
Next you implied that I did not understand knight's comparison of Twilight's completed wing spell to "a cripple pushing themselves on a skateboard". Twilight gave the CMC perfectly functional wings. Apple Bloom has immensely large and strong wings, while Scootaloo is now incredibly fast, already faster than the average pegasus. That comparison alone negates his credibility. But I tried to point him in a more forward thinking manner. Since you are having difficulty with this I will walk you through it. I asked: what would you pay for permanent wings? Most people would pay a great deal, even if they had to save up for a year or two. Yes, I'm well aware that this implies employment. But try thinking a little further ahead than today. How long until everyone has wings? Ten years? Twenty? A hundred? In a hundred years, when everyone has wings, who will you hire? The pegasus? Or the flying earth pony? Beyond employment, what it be like for pegasi when every other pony has their own tribe's traits on top of flight and cloud manipulation?
Next:
This is what made me give up on you.
Point 1: I never gave you fanon or my personal theories. I gave logic, metaphor, and simple common sense.
Point 2: you quoted two scenes from the show, neither of which actually supported you case. In the first:
Key phrase to pay attention here is "supposed to". As in, what typically happens. NEVER does she imply that ponies are limited by their talent. She even goes on to say:
If your argument was true, then this statement would be patently absurd. To add to the rebuff, since you require quotes from the show, in season 2 episode 8 Twilight states "I was impressed by that spell she used to fix the dam, something like that would take an awful lot of study." This implies that a unicorn can learn random spells through copious study.
The second quote I'm not going to even bother with. Rarity knowing a spell that Twilight does not is utterly insignificant.
Next:
here's what you got wrong:
You held a misinformed post full of terrible comparisons up as a shining example of logic. Knight calls this completed spell "semi-usable" and compares the recipients of it to cripples. The evidence is so far against this that it's laughable.
Next:
With any technology, the initial development is the hard part. Once this is done, someone with a tiny fraction of the inventors ability can replicate it. This is true in any established field of study, there is no logical reason that it would not apply to magical study as well. Therefore, now that Twilight has done all the work, any unicorn with a fraction of her ability can memorize the spell and cast it. If power is an issue several unicorns can work together. And since you require quotes from the show, this is brought up in the hearths warming play when it was said the the ancient unicorn tribe worked together to raise the sun.
Next:
Supply and demand. With few available unicorns to perform this spell, it would initially be reserved for the wealthy. And with such a potential for profit because the wealthy are paying so much for it, many others will go out of their way to learn how to perform it. With more competition comes lower prices and more ponies able to pay. Which raises demand again and entices more unicorns to supply. Eventually balancing out when the effort expended on this magic is equal to the compost that is charged. Given that Twilight was able to cast this several times in a day with no adverse affects, you could expect a practiced professional to meet that on a regular basis. That is a lot of newly winged ponies every day.
Finally:
No. You have been disregarding my comments because I have not been quoting scripture at you. You ignore logic, hyperbole, and metaphor, only listening to what you want to hear.
This has in no way resembled a debate. Yes, I insulted you in the last comment. But I feel that this one insults you more, because I had to repeat everything I said before and line up all the dots for you. Everything I said in this post, I said previously. But I had to expound on it until it my point was bloated enough that you can't possibly miss it.
And if you still cannot understand, then to bad. I'm done playing teacher.