After getting ponypiled on in a debate she was dragged into about Cozy Glow being released, Tempest is exhausted and just wants to go home after a tiring day of guard duty. As she is leaving the castle grounds, she finds herself in the Canterlot Garden and in front of the imprisoned trio of villains, and finds Starlight who asks the former commander why she was against releasing Cozy Glow.
(Note: Please let me know if I need to adjust my tags, or add one, for this story. I did think about adding 'Sad', but I wasn't explicitly aiming to write a sadfic with this one, so I'm not sure.)
(8/28/22: Yay! First story to get into the Feature Box! (if the mature filter is on))
Chapters (1)
very nice! Heh I suddenly wonder how Cozy would react if she woke up int he time of G5, with no magic the tribes seperated unable to fly, and with no clue what to do lol
The Main Argument for leaving her imprisoned:
look at what she did as a filly. and you want to risk that growing up and getting more powerfull than ever before?
also, basically the same argument as for why starlight should not have gotten another chance.
tempest had been deceived into doing what she did. neither starlight nor cozy have any such excuse how flimsy it may be.
they thought they were right where everybody else was wrong and everybody else did not deserve to have their life,
because cozy/starlight was angry or disappointed in society. This is what we call a terrorist.
she is just a little child who needs help and a family.
We had help other villiians.
Luna, Discord, Trixie, the changelings, Sunset Shimmer, Tempest and Starlight.
Why cant she be given a second chance?
11344086
Well that didn't happen, but there is a chance that they'll break free later on.
11344091
Tempest betrayed her country just to get a horn back. A frivolous and selfish reason.
Starlight Glimmer was arguably a more dangerous threat but got a second chance. Quite frankly, any of the villains should have been kept in prison.
Trying to reform a juvenile from a broken home is more reason enough to let her out
Good story, but I must disagree with Tempest here. Her assessment about reforming Cozy later is flawed in my opinion.
First, if we assume that Cozy's awake as a statue, I feel that keeping her there would only make her hate everyone more or make her go insane, which would make any future rehabilitation attempts much harder. Not to mention all the moral implications with keeping her there for so long.
Second, as for who could reform Cozy, the fact of the matter is that they could either reform her soon, where all the heroes are at their primes and with fresh memories of her, which would lead to more effective countermeasures should things go wrong, or have them all be much older with far less fresh memories, after they die, in which case the possible candidates won't even know her or understand what she's capable of, Who else could help her better then our main cast? What would make say, the G5 ponies so much better for the job? Seems to me that its far safer to reform her sooner rather then later.
Finally, its just more efficient. The sooner they start, the sooner it'll be over. They could figure out more about her early on to help her with later attempts, should things fail, or more likely, just reform her outright so that she may be able to help with any number of later issues.
Pretty good to me. Nice job.
I feel Cozy Glow might have a chance at redemption more than Chrysalis and Tirek but I ultimately see why Tempest was against it, she has little respect for anyone at this time.
I've gotten into to the Cozy Glow debate before and I believe I made my point on a several posts so I won't rehash it here. The long and short is that I feel Cozy Glow is the one being that can (and should) never be reformed. She is everything dark the elements can be twisted into, in fact I'd go so far as to say she is perhaps the antithesis for Twilight herself. She is a smart, gifted, and capable being that rather than wanting to help everyone as Twilight does is a person who seeks total power and complete control over everyone by using the very virtues and ideals they believe in against them.
Tempest might have a point, perhaps they can't reform her now and somepony in the future with less history with Cozy will be needed, but I don't think that excuses them from trying, because they can't know that for certain unless they try. I'd like to point out though that they also did nothing to dissuade her contempt for them, when they beat her the first time they just threw her into Tartarus without any attempt at reforming or helping her, and then when they had her at their mercy in the show's finale they just turned her to stone. By doing it this way they've basically just given her even more reason to hate them, so if she can't be redeemed by them now then you have to wonder if it might have worked if they tried earlier.
Still, keeping her in stasis with the hopes somepony might eventually be able to reform her is certainly better than "Together Forever" as Discord put it. But I still think they should try and release her, if it doesn't work they can put her back until they find somepony who they think might be able to do the job.
11344247
I don't think this argument holds up very well when you remember what Discord is. Discord is the Spirit of Chaos and Disharmony. He was introduced as the living antithesis to everything the Mane Six represent. Magic, Kindness, Laughter, Generosity, Honesty, Loyalty, he is the opposite to those things. Yet he was still able to be reformed. If they can cart out the literal living embodiment of Disharmony and reform him, I don't think reforming Cozy should be viewed as impossible so easily.
Good story. There a couple of issues with your grammar and mechanics, specifically your dialogue punctuation. You can consult Ezn’s section on dialogue for help.
But there’s nothing that prevents me from enjoying the story.
11344247
Yeah thats a rather bad arguement considering DISCORD, the ACTUAL spirit of chaos and disharmony was reformed, and he was the actual counterpart to the elements, not Cozy. Plus, between her, Tirek and Chrysalis, she is the one that has the most chance of being reformed, sure its not super super likely but its still better chances the reforming the other two
11344115
Tempest's motives were selfish, but I disagree that they were frivolous; a unicorn without a working horn is functionally crippled and pony society doesn't appear to provide anything for handicaps.
11344428
Gee, wonder how earth ponies survive. She seemed physically fit to kick plot to me. It's why I disagree with the motivation.
11344479
But Tempest isn't an earth pony, she's a Unicorn. That horn was a part of her that she was born with, same as any of her other limbs. Unicorns are made unique by their horn and their magic and she lost it. Think of how it clearly bothers Scootaloo that she can't fly, would you tell her that that's frivolous? That earth ponies get along just fine without being able to fly so it shouldn't bother her? Even though Pegasi are supposed to be able to fly, that's a natural part of their race, that their culture is heavily based around flying? Tempest lost a limb in a tragic incident, a limb that is just as much a part of her as your arms and legs are to you, that is not "Frivolous". Not to mention from what we saw, her magical bursts scared her friends away, and while it's understandable they'd be a bit frightened from her perspective she was basically shunned for losing her horn.
Now, I do still agree that Tempest's motivation is selfish, and it's not an excuse. She still helped the Storm King conquer and enslave innocents, she willingly hurt others all for her own gain. I can sympathize with her, I understand she's traumatized and I even think it's completely understandable that she would feel angry and bitter for what happened to her, but it doesn't mean she wasn't a bad person doing bad things. Somebody being hurt doesn't give them an excuse to hurt others, but let's not dismiss that her hurt was genuine.
11344115
But do we know that for sure? We've never been told anything about Cozy's background, and this story doesn't delve into it either. Tempest raised a good point here that I had not thought of until now: is Cozy really just a filly? Even in the show she appeared to operate very much like an adult in terms of her ability to plan.
I'm not saying I agree with Tempest completely. I'm actually in favor of giving Cozy another chance. But I can see where Tempest is coming from here.
I shall throw my hat into the ring and chim in on a few things mentioned here in the comments.
One of the biggest issues with reforming Cozy is she despite her physical age, she has been shown to be very very smart. So if she was offered a chance at release in exchange for reforming, she could very well just say "Okay!" and play the long game while waiting on a chance to strike back and get some revenge. Is this a definite outcome? No, admittedly not. But is it the most likely outcome given what we know about her? Yes, very much so.
Then theres the matter of what pony would be willing to actually take her in as she cannonly has no family. I am able to back this up due to a tweet by one of the writers from S8 and S9 who was asked about Cozy's parents, and his reply was "Who says she has them?" Now I dont know about anyone else but i would be VERY reluctant to alone with a known threat to the world, and yes in this case our antagonist (cozy) was NOT just a threat to Equestria but the entire planet.
Now before the pitchforks come out (assuming they are not out already lol) Let me just say this. I am NOT against a reformed Cozy. I am just saying out of all the villains in the show, she could be the most difficult to do so with due to her nature, and the fact that she is the very definition of a psychopath
11344548
This isn't exactly unique to Cozy Glow though. Discord himself when Fluttershy was trying to reform him tried to manipulate Fluttershy, tried to turn her against her friends and tricked her into promising not to use her Element against him in return for fixing Applejack's farm, a promise which he didn't intend to keep. Hell, he even ended up betraying them in the end with Tirek, and they forgave him and gave him another chance anyway. Starlight also could have done this, she was a pretty manipulative pony after all, she ran a cult and she was magically powerful enough to fight on equal terms with Twilight, she easily could have played a long con and if she did it could have had disastrous results.
Betrayal like this is a very real risk when reforming any villain, it is not a unique issue to Cozy. I'm fairly certain she would do something like that, so they should definitely prepare for it but ideally they would be able to get through to her even as she tries to do it, just like what happened with Discord.
They left Discord alone with Fluttershy. Manipulative, all-powerful Discord who can warp reality with a snap and brainwash somepony just by touching them. Twilight was willing to let Starlight live with her, Starlight the cult leader who stalked her, tried to ruin her whole life, assaulted her, fought her to a standstill, and nearly caused the end of the world with her time travel shenanigans. Cozy meanwhile is a small pegasus filly with no magical powers whatsoever. She is inherently less immediately dangerous than either of them, she needs things like magical artifacts or help from other villains to reach that level. She already loses a lot of danger just by them knowing she's manipulative and that they shouldn't trust her too much. I don't really see why someone like Twilight or Starlight couldn't take her in and try to teach her, taking obvious safety precautions.
"When we helped each other, it felt better somehow." Cozy's own words near the end of Frenemies, where she admits to enjoying genuine teamwork and comradery more than her usual schtick of just manipulating others. Giving some evidence that she is in fact capable of being affected by friendship and feeling it. Yes, she's manipulative, power-hungry and sadistic, certainly she doesn't have a lot of empathy. But there is in-show evidence that she's not actually a total psychopath
I guess being a commander for an evil king is worse than being a communist and almost destroying the timeline 😂
Overall, I like this story and seeing Tempest's point of view about Cozy being reformed or not.
11344563
I think there was a better reason to trust Starlight since Starlight gave up on her own. Those like Discord and Cozy Glow are more likely to play the long con than she is.
11344576
If we’re being fair. Tempest’s evil actions are of her own volition. Starlight never intentionally meant to destroy the universe.
11344591
That's true, but still feels weird lol
11344590
Sure, but Starlight gave up on her own because Twilight made repeated attempts to talk her down. Nobody ever tried to talk Cozy down while she was enacting her evil plan, and even once Cozy is beaten and left powerless the attempt to talk her down just amounts to Twilight asking "Why?" but once Cozy gives her answer, Twilight just gives up. No attempt to reason with her or change her mind, just assumes Cozy is a lost cause and off to Tartarus Cozy goes. But even with Starlight, standing down could have just been some plan to get out of causing the time travel disasters and just find another way to get her revenge on Twilight, she could easily have been counting on and planning to take advantage of their mercy. It was still risky.
Plus, I'm not arguing they should trust Cozy anyway, they really shouldn't. Just give her the Discord treatment, try to reform her and show her genuine friendship, give her a chance to earn trust and a chance to learn why she would want that trust and want to keep it in the first place.
11344598
Given Cozy Glow was being taught how friendship works at a friendship school. I think it’s a bit more justified to give up with Cozy Glow than Starlight, and at least with her it was clear she didn’t know how friendship truly worked. Cozy Glow knew how friendship worked but found it as a means for power.
Fair enough on Starlight but given her facial expressions when considering Twilight’s offer, I can buy that she was being genuine.
Again, I am not against Cozy reforming, I actually like her, but I was trying to give the heroes’ point of view here.
11344629
The friendship school didn't work probably because Cozy Glow was being manipulative from the start, she came to the school with a twisted mindset in the first place and none of the lessons would ever actually have a chance to address that about her because nobody knew about it. On top of that, none of the friendships she made would have any value because none of them were actually friends with the real Cozy Glow, just her fake persona, nobody ever made any actual attempt to befriend the real Cozy once they realized she was evil. Compare that to Fluttershy's reformation attempt with Discord, where she knew who Discord was and what he had done but still did her best to genuinely reach out to and befriend him in spite of that. If Fluttershy had befriended Discord while he was pretending to be someone else I don't think it would have worked either because it wouldn't have been genuine to him.
Cozy initially did have actual trouble understanding friendship, hence why she had to get the CMC to tutor her, which helped her "Understand" it better but she never really got a chance to feel it there. Which is mostly her own fault for being so manipulative, but still. If Cozy were to learn she'd need to be taught in a way more specifically suited for her, education isn't one size fits all after all. The tragedy here is that once Twilight realized her student wasn't who she thought she was and all the lessons hadn't been working, she didn't even try to teach her again using this new information. All made worse by Frenemies basically confirming that yes, Cozy actually can feel friendship and can enjoy it.
I get that, but I find it hard to view the heroes supposed point of view as anything but a failure on their part. A failure to learn from past reformations like that of Discord, where they saw an unrepentant villain change because Fluttershy tried her best to show him genuine friendship despite him not even wanting it. From Starlight, where Twilight had to make multiple attempts to reach out to her before she could finally get through. From the Pony of Shadows, where they learned to not just give up on someone before you really try to understand them and reach out. There's a lot of lessons here that sort of just went ignored.
Tempest, "I'm not in favor of releasing her because I'm not convinced she isn't a magical construct created out of pure evil. I mean, we have found no evidence that she ever had parents. No record of her in an orphanage. NOTHING to suggest she was EVER a real filly. Instead, we see a nebulous child who somehow managed to comprehend magic at a level beyond ALICORNS' knowledge, despite not being even a unicorn herself... and accomplishing all of this by age... what is she anyway, 8? She's unphased coming in contact with monsters and demons that have most other ponies literally running around screaming in terror, as though she's completely used to encountering magical horrors.... DESPITE BEING 8!! No, I think she's the creation of disturbed mind who fashioned her for a nefarious purpose!"
Starlight, "I was just asking what flavor of ice cream you wanted... but you do make a good point."
11344576
Being a commander out to enslave everyone for an evil king might just be worse than a communist who destroyed the timeline because she didn't know making sure six people aren't friends would do so, yeah. At least Starlight didn't put children in chains and cages.
11344543
No. We don’t. That’s why the vast majority of “Cozy Glow should be reformed”-’discussions’ are meaningless. The majority of them are all based on fanon.
Tempest/the story pretty much nails the two key factors about Cozy.
1. We don’t know her backstory and we can’t find out cause she’s too manipulative. Even if Twilight/Starlight time travelled back to see Cozy’s past, we wouldn’t know if she was already manipulating ponies/creatures around her.
2. If she was to be released ‘now’ there’s no reason for her to reform. She fucked everyone and got away with it. Twice. Why wouldn’t she try again?
As for the story itself, it’s very cold and hard. Gimme more Tempest throwing out cold hard analyses, I love that stuff. But I know cold and hard doesn’t fly with this community.
11344777
Old habits die hard. And as for Cozy, giving up being evil is most likely a lot harder than it sounds. While it may be possible to reform an evil bastard like her, its gonna take a long time to do so.
The other villains reformed easier because while what they did was evil, most of them were misguided, and as for Discord, he was just born with a wild sense of humor and could be reformed if it was done correctly, which it did. (In fact he had to get his ass whooped before he was reformed) While for Cozy, we don't know Cozy's past so its really hard to decipher what made her the way she is.
You can take Cozy away from evil, but you can't take the evil out of Cozy.
But hey that's just my view
11344775
Fair enough
11344301
11344358
I always felt like Discord was Celestias and Lunas antithesis, yes he was a villain but to be honest I never really saw him as anything more than a guy who can take the joke way too far if he doesn't have someone who can keep him in line.
It's also shown that while Discord is the spirit of chaos he's not necessarily evil, he just wants to have fun but Cozy Glow doesn't want to have fun. She wants to be in control and have power.
Honestly if she wasn't a 'child' I can guarantee everyone would be calling her evil and saying she got what she deserved but because she looks like a child everyone wants to claim she is redeemable and can be changed. I believe that she is irredeemable and got what she deserves. Is it an unpopular opinion, yes but I stand by it because I never saw her even once look or appear remorseful in any regard unless it was to manipulating someone.
11344794
He was absolutely evil. Yes, he's goofy and silly, he makes chocolate rain and ballet dancing buffalos. But just because he's funny doesn't stop him from being evil. Just look at what he did to the Mane Six, he lured them into the hedge maze to find the Elements, which weren't even present in there and then slowly twisted their minds and turned them against their own Elements. He showed them false truths, mocked them, played with their minds...and it was all unnecessary. As shown with Fluttershy he could change any of them any time he wanted with a single touch. All of the mind games was just for fun, because he enjoyed toying with them like that. All just an act of sadism on his part. He saw he broke Twilight's spirit in the end and he cheered. We were shown he messed the minds of others outside of the mane six too, like making Big Mac think he's a dog.
All of this isn't even to mention that he was introduced with a stained glass window of him dangling ponies over a pit of fire with puppet strings, to the background sound of ponies screaming. Discord's world may look silly but in actuality it's a surrealist hell where he controls everything. You can't trust anything, your mind or body can be altered at any moment, and he'll do anything to you just for a laugh. You say he's not evil, that Cozy is because she wants control and power, but Discord will make you suffer just because it's fun. Causing suffering just for fun is what I'd consider the closest thing there is to "Pure" evil.
No, people have brought that up before. If she was an adult I'd still think it's wrong and it'd still say they should try to reform her. I also think they should have tried to reform Tirek and made another more significant go at Chrysalis too, both of which are adults. I have an extra big problem with what happened to Cozy because she is a child but it's not the only reason. Also, yeah, Cozy never looked remorseful. But neither did Discord until after a whole episode of Fluttershy trying to reach out to him, and neither did Tempest until Twilight saved her life.
11344829
This is why I said in my original post I was not rehashing this argument. There is no answer that will satisfy everyone so I say move on and let people have their own opinions.
11344829
Celestia referred to Discord in his debut as "the mischievous spirit of chaos". Not "malevolent", or "evil". It was also pointed out in his Friends Forever issue with Luna that he opposes order, not good.
There's also the fact that he's a literal embodiment of chaos. And as "Discordant Harmony" showed, not being chaotic for an extended period of time will cause him to fade away. It's in his nature to be a reality-warping trickster. But he was able to rein in that nature for the sake of his friends.
Cozy, on the other hand, wasn't born the embodiment of anything. She chose to use friendship as a tool for her own benefit all by herself, not because it was in her nature, but because she wanted to. And she let nothing and nopony dissuade her from that path.
11344968
Feel free to have whatever opinion you like, I can't stop you. But if you post something I disagree with you on I'm still gonna say so.
11345114
Celestia doesn't have to describe him as evil, he proves himself that he is evil over the course of Return of Harmony. But even then she was angry and took him very seriously, describing his rule as putting Equestria in an "Eternal state of unrest and happiness" and she's somepony who would have had to approve of the stained glass window depicting him dangling ponies over fire on puppet strings. So I think it's clear she considered him evil too.
Also, I know exactly the comic you are talking about. It's a very good comic but first of all, this is reformed Discord speaking. Second of all, the comics are pretty dubious in terms of their continuity with the show. Third of all, the comic is conveniently forgetting that Discord is the spirit of two things. Chaos and Disharmony. Chaos does not oppose good, Pinkie Pie is chaotic and she is an Element of Harmony. But the second part of that title Disharmony makes him out to be the antithesis of the Mane Six themselves and the Elements they embody. Their living opposite.
As far as we know, absolutely nobody knew that prior to Discordant Harmony, because Discord himself didn't even know that, so it can't be a reason for why any of the characters tried to help and reform him. They would have had to have that knowledge first. Also, Discord only started to fade when he went completely against his nature and acted super orderly. He clearly didn't need anywhere near the amount of chaos we saw in Return of Harmony to live.
Sure, she did make her own choices. Just like Tempest Shadow made her own choice to follow the Storm King and help him conquer and enslave kingdoms, including Equestria. She threw innocent people, including children into cages, committed violence against and even seemed to rather enjoy her job. All to get her horn back, and I sympathize with her for wanting that but it doesn't mean her actions weren't any less wrong. It was selfish and cruel of her, a showcase that she didn't care who she had to hurt as long as she got what she wanted. The Storm King turned out to be a big liar in the end who tricked her but that doesn't absolve her, just makes the Storm King a bigger jerk.
Also, if you're going to argue that Discord wasn't evil due to his nature at all, then that also means all of his evil is down to his own choices too. So he's guilty in the same way Cozy is. Chaos doesn't inherently oppose good, which means any and all of his cruelty and sadism is just him deciding to be that way.
Literally nobody tried.
11345188
If Discord were truly evil, Fluttershy wouldn't have been able to get through to him the way she did. Fluttershy calling him a "friend" for the first time had a genuine effect on him. If he were evil, he would have just brushed it off. But instead, he reflected on how he'd never had a friend before.
Incorrect. Twilight tried. She tried to enlighten her on the true reason to make friends. But Cozy simply threw it back in her face, and pledged to keep doing what she was doing.
11345301
So, would you argue that any reformed villain isn't evil, because otherwise they couldn't be reformed? Would you make this argument for any reformed character? Vegeta from Dragon Ball for instance, he's worse than pretty much every MLP villain. He's committed genocide and destroyed entire planets. Yet he still grew to care for others and became a better person in the end, he changed. But does that mean he wasn't evil?
All Fluttershy getting through to him proves is that Friendship can affect him and that he's capable of changing, that he isn't doomed to be evil forever, but it doesn't suddenly mean he wasn't evil before. He was selfish and sadistic. Changing as a person and realizing he wants friendship now doesn't just erase his past. Also, remember that Cozy Glow herself also showed that she could be affected by and enjoy friendship in Frenemies, proving that she is not completely evil and incapable of goodness. Sure, she turned against it there, but also remember that Discord himself once turned against his friendship with Fluttershy too and betrayed her, all because of some minor convincing from Tirek. He's not really different.
No, she didn't. She just asked Cozy why she did what she did, and when Cozy gave her answer she just told her she's wrong and then gave up on her. She didn't make any attempt to reason with Cozy, any attempt to prove her wrong or teach her true friendship. She just gave up. Remember that first Friendship speech Twilight tried to give Starlight? Remember how Starlight shut her down with that "QUIET!"? Twilight failed to reach Starlight there, and she only succeeded in the end because she tried again to reach out to Starlight and reason with her. If she took that one rejection as Starlight's final answer, she'd either have ended up stuck fighting Starlight through time forever or Starlight would have ended up thrown in Tartarus or stoned too.
11345348
No, I'm saying that someone has to have at least some good in them in order to be reformed.
Discord still harbored guilt over the betrayal, long before Tirek betrayed him. Cozy showed no guilt over tricking her teachers into getting trapped in Tartarus, imprisoning Starlight, locking the CMC in a closet, or making the Young Six her scapegoats. They had ALL showed Cozy true friendship, yet she had no qualms about doublecrossing them all.
Cozy was wrong. And Twilight tried to teach the right way one last time.
Twilight and the others had been teaching her true friendship the whole time she was at the school. But she refused to learn the real value of those lessons.
And Twilight didn't give up. Cozy fled, and was apprehended by the royal guard. It was out of her hooves after that.
Don't forget, it was Starlight who came to Twilight for a rematch. And talking down Starlight was the only option. The alternative was an endless stalemate.
11345585
Okay, but Cozy demonstrated some possible capacity for good in Frenemies. There is canonical proof that she might be able to be reformed. Discord also demonstrated no capacity for good for all of Return of Harmony and most of Keep Calm and Flutter On. Any goodness he demonstrated in the series only started coming out after an entire episode dedicated to Fluttershy trying to reform and befriend him. He showed the characters and the audience no goodness prior to that, and if Fluttershy hadn't tried so hard he very easily could have gone through the rest of the series just being seen as an irredeemable monster, just like how so many see Cozy now.
Discord showed guilt but the guilt didn't stop him. He only stopped in the end because Tirek backstabbed him, otherwise he seemed perfectly willing to ignore that guilt in favor of having his freedom to do whatever he wanted. I don't consider him any better than Cozy here. If anything the fact that he does feel guilt and remorse, that he not only understands this is wrong but even feels it's wrong but goes through with it anyway might make his betrayal even worse.
Also, we've had this conversation before and I have already told you why I think the friendships Cozy had wouldn't matter to her even if she is capable of being reformed. Because none of them were actually true friends with Cozy, just the fake persona she put on. None of them knew the real her and thus none of them could offer genuine friendship to the real her during that time. Yes, that is obviously 100% Cozy's fault, but still. This is very different from the friendship that say, Fluttershy offered to Discord in Keep Calm, where she offered that friendship to the real Discord with full knowledge of who he was.
"You're the one who doesn't get it, Cozy. Friendship is powerful, but power isn't why you make friends. I'm sorry I couldn't teach you that." These are Twilight's exact words after she get's Cozy's answer on why she did what she did. This doesn't sound like she's trying to teach Cozy one last time, this sounds like she's already decided Cozy Glow is a lost cause and is giving up on her. "I'm sorry I couldn't teach you that" implies she feels she's already done all she can, but she hasn't even tried to really teach Cozy now that she knows she's a villain. She's giving up before she's even tried.
Education is not one size fits all, is it that Cozy "Refused" to learn or simply that the lessons didn't get through to her? She's capable of feeling and enjoying friendship, Frenemies proves it. Just because the lessons didn't work doesn't mean she can't be taught, they weren't aimed at somepony with a mindset like Cozy, she would likely need more specialized help which they never offered her. Also, no it was not out of Twilight's hooves after the guards got her. She is a Princess and a hero, if she wanted to give Cozy a shot at reformation she could speak up and know for a fact that at least her words would be taken into consideration.
Did she learn nothing from that experience though? Yeah, she reached out to Starlight because she had to, but it worked. Despite Starlight's earlier rejections of Twilight's attempts to reach out to her she was still eventually able to reach Starlight because she kept trying and didn't just give up after the first attempt. What if she made more attempts with Cozy and it actually worked? Maybe it wouldn't, but it's not like we know since she didn't try.
If Twilight Sparkle, Princess of Friendship doesn't feel like actually trying to reach out unless she has to, then how many potentially redeemable villains will they simply toss into Tartarus or turn into statues? How many friends like Discord or Starlight or Tempest could they make that they never will because sometimes they just don't feel like helping? How many of them will just rot, or knowing this show's track record, come back to wreak even more havoc later until somebody finally decides to try and help? Because that's basically what all the villains do until they're either reformed or they end up dead. No villain in this show has ever had their mind changed by just being locked up or banished.
Maybe Cozy absolutely can't be reached. Maybe she can't or won't change under any circumstance. Or maybe she can, maybe all it'd take is a 22 minute episode or a season arc, who knows? They never actually tried to figure out. Just threw her into Tartarus and turned her into a lawn ornament. Now nobody agrees on whether she can be reformed or not but that's not the problem, the problem is the lack of trying. If they tried for real then we all might have an answer. Yes or no, either way it'd be easier to feel sure. Even if they failed the characters would have lived up to their morals just by trying.
11345663
But she didn't actually do any good. And then there was everything she did afterwards...
Cozy may not have been genuine, but they were. They saw her as their true friend, and treated her as such.
Don't forget, Discord was initially just playing nice with Fluttershy to get her on his side. But when she called him her friend, that all started to change. He put on a fake persona of his own, but Fluttershy's friendship was still genuine, and it got through to him.
Twilight taught her the same lessons she taught all the other students. She was trying from day one.
Considering every other student took those lessons to heart, it's not really about them "failing". If a dragon and a griffon (whose species were infamous for lacking friendship) could learn them better than Cozy, then it's more about Cozy not listening than the lessons not being "specialized" enough.
You can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped. Even if they did try, there's nothing to suggest they could get through to Cozy after multiple lessons on the very core values of friendship couldn't.
I'm not in the mood for another week-long debate. All I've done is state the facts as they were presented on the show. If you don't like those facts, then it's your problem.
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Neither did Discord until after a whole episode dedicated to somepony trying to drag that goodness out of him, and without that episode happening he never would have done any of that good. Neither did Tempest do any good until after Twilight saved her life, yes she had a sympathetic backstory and she was backstabbed, but prior to that backstabbing she was selfish and remorseless. If the Storm King hadn't betrayed her and had been able to give her what she wanted? She probably would have loyally continued to serve him, conquering and enslaving in his name.
Cozy might be an irredeemable monster, maybe. But once upon a time Discord or Tempest also could have easily been seen that way too, and all it takes is Fluttershy being a bit less persistent or the Storm King keeping his word and they very well might have been seen that way forever.
Yes, they were genuine, but that wouldn't matter to Cozy because it's not being offered to her, just her fake mask. She doesn't know if any of them would be friends with her or even try to be if they knew the real her, and in the end they really didn't. Once they saw the real her they just saw a monster and had no interest in trying to figure out if she could be anything else.
The difference with Discord is that Fluttershy still knew he was a villain. She knew what he was like, she knew he was cold, chaotic, selfish, etc. She had even been a victim of him herself. Even despite everything he had done to her and her friends and everything he had shown her, she still genuinely tried to befriend the real him. Yes, he tried to manipulate her, but Fluttershy knew that. Fluttershy looked at Discord the unrepentant, remorseless, selfish monster and decided to do her best to be his friend. Nobody did that for Cozy, nobody looked at the real her and decided to do their best to show her friendship despite seeing what she is.
Education is not one sized fits all. Just because those lessons worked for others doesn't mean that they'll work for everyone, and it doesn't prove that Cozy can't truly learn just because they didn't work for her. Cozy did initially struggle with the friendship lessons and needed the CMC to tutor her, and it's obvious that she thinks differently from everypony else around her. Sometimes people need more specialized help to learn things, it's a fact. Just because Gallus and Smolder, a Griffon and Dragon learned friendship easier than her, a pony doesn't prove anything. People are individuals, they are not defined entirely by their race or species.
Discord did not want to be helped, he laughed at and mocked the idea that he could be reformed, he only played along because they threatened him with the Elements. He didn't want help, he wanted to bring another reign of chaos. But they still managed to help him. Starlight Glimmer did not want help, she wanted revenge on Twilight Sparkle, even if it meant fighting her through time for all of eternity. Twilight still managed to help her. They are both living proof that someone who does not want help can be helped.
Frenemies. She experienced genuine friendship and comradery with Tirek and Chrysalis as her real self, as they all worked towards a common goal. She enjoyed it, and who knows if she would have turned against it then if Chrysalis hadn't freaked out like she did? Who knows what might have happened if she had that moment of real genuine friendship with somebody else who might actually want to encourage it? Maybe she would have turned against it anyway, but maybe it would have stuck and she would have changed. We don't know.
The facts are that they made no significant attempt to help or reform Cozy after finding out she was actually a villain. That multiple villains were reformed previously, some of which were just as unrepentant and remorseless as her when the heroes began trying to reform them. That she showcased some capacity for genuine friendship in Frenemies, and that she, a child, was thrown into Tartarus and turned to stone without even a moments hesitation or doubt on the part of anyone doing it.
Those are the facts.
But fine, I'm done with the conversation if you are.
That was a good story.
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Starlight was less "being a Communist" and more "literally inventing a way to strip soul-deep abilities from ponies out of sheer malicious jealousy, essentially turning them into indoctrinated cultist zombies, and then founding an evil cult with the goal of doing it to everypony specifically to satisfy her petty, entitled desire to be the only special pony left in the world and the only being more equal than everyone else .
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No, but she did intentionally want to mindrape all ponies into subservience.
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I won’t deny she tried to force her ideologies down other ponies’ throats, I was merely defending the time travel stunt.
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I agree to that.