• Member Since 14th Aug, 2016
  • offline last seen June 27th

Rand


Fiat currency of South Africa.

Comments ( 51 )

sorry, but with this set up I find it hard to believe Mac wouldn't just kill them whatever the consequences

Rand #2 · Aug 22nd, 2016 · · 1 ·

7503035
It can't be easy to bite your tongue when you hear a person harass someone you love the way Flim harassed Applejack, but I think Mac would recognize that he has to control himself for her sake. He knows that if he keeps his mouth shut he has to stomach them saying (and doing) what they want to her for the limited time they have her, but in the long run he can get her back under his protection and she can stay safe. On the other hand, if he tries to fight them, let alone kills them, the Caribou will jail him (and maybe worse), and Applejack will be sent to a new owner forever. It isn't easy, but it's the best thing he can do for her.

7503542 except they did far more than the average harassment there

7503607

except they did far more than the average harassment there

Definitely, but in this case Mac's only options are to a) let them have their government-sanctioned week with her and then get her back, not permanently harmed or b) try to fight them off, get in legal trouble with the Caribou, and risk having Applejack given to another owner forever. As much as he doesn't want them to take her, there's nothing better he can do for her than stand back and let it happen.

Hello there :twilightsmile: Glad to finally meet my replacement. I'm not even lying or being snide about that either. I seriously am glad to see that my plan to get NCN doing something instead of sitting on his ass worked. Two new stories in a month's time with supposedly another one on it's way. Geez, I should betrayed him a while back.

But hey, let's not give NCN all the credit here... I'm pretty sure it wasn't he who came up with the ideas in this. I mean I know that Trixie going to Flim and Flam was Ponk's idea, since we talked about it together seeing as Trixie was going to be "my thing", so it's nice to see that in a form of canon work. And.. well forgive me if I say this, but I do see a bit of Bruised Apples retread in this, but hey, what are ya going to do with a character like AJ. You're either gonna set her up with Flim and Flam, or set her up with Trenderhoof, and I know the latter isn't going to happen, so good job going with the obvious choice.

Now I do have to say, this is a pretty good start. I like the set up, for the most part. I mean there are some silly bits and stuff that goes against what "was" canon, but I suppose that's not a big issue since NCN is probably try to forget me (by handing off my projects to everyone who wants a nibble it seems), but I have to say that it will be hard of him to do so when he is once again working with characters that I worked with for two years, and the association is unavoidable at this point. Sorry, got side tracked. Let's get back to your story, and I'll try not to let it happen again.

Like I said, I see a lot of good here. I also see a bit of minor mistakes and a few big ones that might want to be avoided . To be honest, none of it is your writing. That's great, and you certainly don't deserve the ratio of thumbs ups to downs you have now. No, your issues lay elsewhere, and I'd like to make a short list of pros and cons to this story if you don't mind me saying them.

Good Things:
1. You kept the dynamic of Mac and AJ the same as it was, and didn't make Mac a monster. Good job.
2. You kept in that the guards are pretty much ass hats that don't really care about anyone (or at least not an "incurable").
3. You made Flim and Flam monsters, and did so in a delightful way. Honestly, the only thing I could say I would have wanted more out of them would have been more interactions with Trixie, as I actually managed to get off at that point, but unfortunately it was too short.
4. The interactions with AJ and Trixie. While I think it might have been laid on a bit thick (they aren't exactly friends in MLP canon), and I do feel that while AJ might not have been very excited to see her to begin with, Trixie should have reacted that way to any familiar "black collar", and in turn AJ should have sympathy for anyone in need.

Bad things:
1. You're trying too hard with the "goddess" bit. Equestria doesn't have a religious climate or culturalism, and even the alicorns are not directly called goddesses. Only stupid people, like Twipet, would use such a term, and you don't seem like a stupid person (then again, you might just have a really convincing "smart" act).
2. There is no way that AJ wouldn't recognize Trixie's outfit. She is the only pony we have ever seen who wears something like that, and Trixie is too big a thing in AJ's life to not know what it is when she sees it.
3. I'm pretty sure AJ doesn't know Trixie's last name. Bit of a nitpick, I know, but while I am not caught up with current MLP, I believe that Trixie still hasn't even said her last name in the show ever.
4. Why the heck would Flim and Flam know Trixie enough to want to "snatch her up"? They have never really met, and it's not like Trixie is famous or anything of the like. Heck, if they knew that much about her, then they should have known that AJ knew her personally.
5. The "I'm into psychology" angle for Flam was unnecessary, and a bit pointless. No need to add non-canon aspects to a character for this scenario to work. Just let them be good swindlers like they always have been, or better yet, just let them have used normal tactic to wear Trixie down. Honestly, Trixie isn't that "willful" of a pony when you look at it.
6.You probably shouldn't have put in the summary that Mac is going to go to the resistance. It has already ruined any surprise that could have had in story, because it would have been neat to see that kind of twist out of the blue, but it almost ruins the ending to all this too, because knowing NCN I have to say that there won't be a happy ending for either of them. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but this story is going to end with Mac either being imprisoned or switched and enslaved, and AJ is just going to be owned by someone else from now on, probably Flim and Flam. Heck, at this point I wouldn't be surprised if they actually break her, and all because you let slip that Mac was joining the rebels (which goes heavily against his former FoE incarnation, but again, won't hold that against you).
7. The retreading on my own ideas, but that is not a big deal, honestly. Do what feels right to you, even if it is something that has already been tried and tested.

Anyways, the story is good save for those minor set backs, and I would love to see more of it. Thumbs up from me for now. And heck, if you ever want to get a second opinion about your story, or need some help coming up with something, give me a ring. I'll be glad to help an FoE contributor who is actually trying to do something good and interesting with the setting :pinkiehappy:.

P.S. Shame NCN couldn't get you a cover image like some of the other FoE canon stories, but I know he has been slacking on that recently. Perhaps you will get one soon, but then again it might be a while if he has promised you one. Took me three month and I had to demand it after a sec and I bet there are other "more important" (heavy sarcasm) people waiting for an image for their story already. Just hang in there, okay? ^_^

7503773

Hello there :twilightsmile: Glad to finally met my replacement. I'm not even lying or being snide about that either. I seriously am glad to see that my plan to get NCN doing something instead of sitting on his ass worked. Two new stories in a month's time with supposedly another one on it's way. Geez, I should betrayed him a while back.

Now I do have to say, this is a pretty good start. I like the set up, for the most part. I mean there are some silly bits and stuff that goes against what "was" canon, but I suppose that's not a big issue since NCN is probably try to forget me (by handing off my projects to everyone who wants a nibble it seems), but I have to say that it will be hard of him to do so when he is once again working with characters that I worked with for two years, and the association is unavoidable at this point. Sorry, got side tracked. Let's get back to your story, and I'll try not to let it happen again.

Like I said, I see a lot of good here. I also see a bit of minor mistakes and a few big ones that might want to be avoided . To be honest, none of it is your writing. That's great, and you certainly don't deserve the ratio of thumbs ups to downs ratio you have now. No, your issues lay elsewhere, and I'd like to make a short list of pros and cons to this story if you don't mind me saying them.

Hey there.

I think it was inevitable that we were going to talk eventually given that we wrote stories about the same characters in the same universe, so I'm glad we could do it right up front.

To begin with, I want to say that I really don't see myself as your "replacement," and I don't see this story as a "replacement" for "Bruised Apples," either, so much as a different take on the same premise. I don't think "Bruised Apples" needs a "replacement," and I'll explain: From what I've seen recently, I think the distinction between Fall of Equestria "canon" and "non-canon" has been a little exaggerated. I think some people have this idea that you have to choose between whether you want to "believe in" the canon storyline or the non-canon works, as if they're mutually exclusive, but since it's all fiction anyway there's no reason you can't enjoy both for what they are. That seems a little paradoxical because some works contradict each other (like yours and mine, for instance), but even then we can enjoy them as different executions of the same premise by different writers. The way I look at it, you, me, and every other writer who writes canon work and fan work for the Fall of Equestria fandom are all just writers with a shared interest in the same universe, that's all.

Now, that said, only some of us can write for the official main storyline, and your story is no longer there, but I think it's still very much valid as a non-canon Fall of Equestria story and doesn't need to be re-done. I've read it (partially, I haven't quite gotten all the way through yet), and I really enjoy it. I appreciate you saying that you liked my story as well. I wasn't quite expecting the upvote-downvote ratio either :twilightblush:. I thought it would be a more or less even 50-50, like most previous Fall of Equestria stories, but right now the split seems closer to 20-80. If people all have a problem with some element of the story itself then I'm very open to constructive criticism in the comments because I'm always looking to improve my writing, but honestly I think you're right that that's not it: I think at least some of the people who left downvotes and didn't leave comments were people who felt like they had to choose between this story and "Bruised Apples," and even if a person who feels that way wants to downvote me for some other reason, I don't think they should see it like that.

I'm going to try to address all of your points below, and hopefully give not just you but everyone who's seen the story so far and reacted, positively or negatively, some insight into my thought process while writing it:

I mean I know that Trixie going to Flim and Flam was Ponk's idea, since we talked about it together seeing as Trixie was going to be "my thing", so it's nice to see that in a form of canon work.

Trixie's inclusion was actually my own idea. Most of the chapter was material I came up with independently. After showing it to him he gave me feedback on a few things, and I changed those, so that was where his influence came into it.

1. You kept the dynamic of Mac and AJ the same as it was, and didn't make Mac a monster. Good job.

I definitely though the protective-big-brother dynamic was the right way to go with Applejack and Big Mac, since it simultaneously gives Mac a reason to join the resistance (to help his sister, and all the other mares that have become slaves) and a reason not to join (to keep his head down and keep his sister safe) that provide an internal conflict.

2. You kept in that the guards are pretty much ass hats that don't really care about anyone (or at least not an "incurable").

Right. I admittedly didn't think too much about that line, but I assumed that the Caribou wouldn't care too much about the dealings or problems of ponies to begin with, and would have even less patience for a stallion with "do-gooder" attitude like Mac.

3. You made Flim and Flam monsters, and did so in a delightful way. Honestly, the only thing I could say I would have wanted more out of them would have been more interactions with Trixie, as I actually managed to get off at that point, but unfortunately it was too short.

I'm really glad you liked how Flim and Flam turned out, because they were probably my favorite part of the story to write. I spent a lot of time thinking through what kind of personalities they were going to have. I knew right from the start that I didn't want to just make them two carbon copies of the same villain. They had to be independent minds and play off one another. I ended up casting Flim as the hotheaded, unintelligent thug, and Flam as his foil, the sinister but level-headed manipulator.

It could have been vice versa, to be honest—the deciding factor ending up being Flam's mustache, since that's all that distinguishes them in the show. I got the feeling that facial hair fitted a calm person better, for whatever reason.

4. The interactions with AJ and Trixie. While I think it might have been laid on a bit thick (they aren't exactly friends in MLP canon), and I do feel that while AJ might not have been very excited to see her to begin with, Trixie should have reacted that way to any familiar "black collar", and in turn AJ should have sympathy for anyone in need.

You're completely right. Trixie and AJ's relationship with one another wasn't too strong to begin with, but their circumstances made it easy for them to feel a connection.

1. You're trying too hard with the "goddess" bit. Equestria doesn't have a religious climate or culturalism, and even the alicorns are not directly called goddesses. Only stupid people, like Twipet, would use such a term, and you don't seem like a stupid person (then again, you might just have a really convincing "smart" act).

I can see where you're coming from. I agree, the Goddesses were never really considered "goddesses" in the religious sense, and ponies certainly didn't pray to them. I didn't intend for the phrase to have any religious or spiritual implications though, I wanted to used it for a different reason: I was trying emphasize that Applejack still sees the twin princesses as symbols of guidance and strength for her to look up to, even though they've surrendered Equestria to the Caribou and become slaves, because she has an "old world" mindset. It was meant to be another way to show that she's is "living in the past." Maybe "Oh Goddesses" isn't quite the right phrase for that because just the word "goddesses" has another connotation. "Oh Celestia"? I'll have to see, I guess.

2. There is no way that AJ wouldn't recognize Trixie's outfit. She is the only pony we have ever seen who wears something like that, and Trixie is too big a thing in AJ's life to not know what it is when she sees it.

It is a pretty distinctive outfit, but I figure, having known Rarity, Applejack has seen so many exotic outfits in her life to not remember one right as she sees it (I tried to emphasize that she got very little time to try to remember where it was from before having to move on).

3. I'm pretty sure AJ doesn't know Trixie's last name. Bit of a nitpick, I know, but while I am not caught up with current MLP, I believe that Trixie still hasn't even said her last name in the show ever.

You're right, I don't think she has and Applejack probably doesn't know it. I'm guilty of taking some artistic license here just for the sake of the way the scene was worded. Someone was surprised to see someone else, and I felt like it read better if she was recognized by her full name first then switched to her first name. So that was an error, but, like all my mistakes, it was intentional. :raritywink: (Just kidding.)

4. Why the heck would Flim and Flam know Trixie enough to want to "snatch her up"? They have never really met, and it's not like Trixie is famous or anything of the like. Heck, if they knew that much about her, then they should have known that AJ knew her personally.

For the purposes of the story, Trixie's fame is probably played up from the show. Correct me if I'm wrong, though, but I don't think they really talked about how much notoriety she gained before the events of her first episode. I imagined her as a somewhat lauded magician who toured town-to-town before she came to Ponyville, ran into Twilight Sparkle and company, and got her priorities readjusted. That way, Flim and Flam could have heard of her while she was on the magic show circuit and remembered the name when it came up again on a slave for sale.

I think knowing her just as her stage personality, it's conceivable that they didn't know who the real life pony behind the persona was friends with, especially since her and Applejack didn't become friends until her career as the "Great and Powerful" Trixie was over and the name was all that remained.

5. The "I'm into psychology" angle for Flam was unnecessary, and a bit pointless. No need to add non-canon aspects to a character for this scenario to work. Just let them be good swindlers like they always have been, or better yet, just let them have used normal tactic to wear Trixie down. Honestly, Trixie isn't that "willful" of a pony when you look at it.

Fair enough about the mention of having dabbled in psychology. That detail was partially there so I could have an excuse to bring back the "Fun fact about me" line from earlier, and also partially to lend some credence to his interest in people's fears and worries, but it didn't need to be there.

I disagree that they should have used normal tactics to wear Trixie down, though. Flam's interest in getting inside Applejack's head is really what makes him so daunting to her. She's presumably dealt with abusive stallions before, just like every mare after the Fall. What makes Flam different is that not only does he have a grudge against her, but he understands that her worldview can't be shaken by beating or raping her. His talk about her mind and self-deception really does tie into him being a "good swindler." He's good at his job because he has a lot of experience with the things people fear and the way they try to avoid confronting them, and these are the kinds of insights he's going to use to break Applejack. Trixie wasn't meant to be "willful" so much as "proud," and the reason Flam brought her along is to prove to Applejack that he can break the mares who can survive violence and rapes with their pride and strength intact, like herself.

6.You probably shouldn't have put in the summary that Mac is going to go to the resistance. It has already ruined any surprise that could have had in story, because it would have been neat to see that kind of twist out of the blue, but it almost ruins the ending to all this too, because knowing NCN I have to say that there won't be a happy ending for either of them. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but this story is going to end with Mac either being imprisoned or switched and enslaved, and AJ is just going to be owned by someone else from now on, probably Flim and Flam. Heck, at this point I wouldn't be surprised if they actually break her, and all because you let slip that Mac was joining the rebels (which goes heavily against his former FoE incarnation, but again, won't hold that against you).

I also have to disagree with you here. I can see your point: the main storyline of Fall of Equestria is ultimately about people fighting losing battles and coming to grips with a hopeless world, so nothing ever ends well, per se. That means that if I say a character is going to take a risk like joining the resistance, it means they'll probably fail. Of course, I don't want to discuss the actual ending too much, but I will say that I don't think Fall of Equestria as a universe is really about the ultimate endings so much as the journeys. Because, like you said, there are no happy endings in this world so the endings are ultimately all bleak. In fact, the reveal that Mac was joining the resistance was meant to come in the very second chapter, and not even as a twist or a surprise.

I think a story like this is, or any of the other canon Fall of Equestria stories, is a lot like Romeo and Juliet, or Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back, or Lincoln: The Movie (not to cast myself in the same net as Shakespeare, George Lucas, or Steven Spielberg :twilightblush:). The endings of those movies are iconic pop culture moments that every audience member who sees the movie for the first time today will know years in advance. And they aren't happy endings. There are some movies when the twist of the ending makes the movie enjoyable, but in these movies it's the journey to get to those unhappy endings that the viewer derives the pleasure of the movie from. Fall of Equestria has no happy ending, but the pleasure of the journey isn't just knowing what unhappy position the inhabitants of Equestria end up in, but seeing the the process of beating them down and degrading them that gets them into that position. That's my take on it, anyway.

7. The retreading on my own ideas, but that is not a big deal, honestly. Do what feels right to you, even if it is something that has already been tried and tested.

Fair enough. I also feel like since Applejack is a character with a certain personality, and she can only do so many things in a world like this. As long as the execution of each story is different (and I think they are), if the premises are similar I say it's no big deal. I'm glad we agree on that.

[Anyways, the story is good save for those minor set backs, and I would love to see more of it. Thumbs up from me for now. And heck, if you ever want to get a second opinion about your story, or need some help coming up with something, give me a ring. I'll be glad to help an FoE contributor who is actually trying to do something good and interesting with the setting.

Thanks again for the support. It means a lot, and I hope I am able to do some good and interesting things with the universe. If I never help or a second opinion on something, I'll get you.

P.S. Shame NCN couldn't get you a cover image like some of the other FoE canon stories, but I know he has been slacking on that recently. Perhaps you will get one soon, but then again it might be a while if he has promised you one. Took me three month and I had to demand it after a sec and I bet there are other "more important" (heavy sarcasm) people waiting for an image for their story already. Just hang in there, okay? ^_^

non_creepy_nickname actually offered me cover art, but I thought it might be better to wait to make it until a few chapters down the line, when more of the story was finalized, so we would have a better handle on what would best represent the story. I do hope to get some eventually.

7504623

I have to say, after seeing this story, and even after a first quick read, I was very sceptical. But after reading it a second time, I think it's not bad. It's consistent, and despite the issues Schorl already pointed out, the characters are well-written so far. It may not be the best FoE story (that's still Bruised Apples to me), maybe not even the best canon story (right now that would be Sirius' new story in my eyes). But it's definitely better than quite a few other FoE stories, and it definitely doesn't deserve a 20-80 Like/Dislike ratio.

I just gave you a Like. And I don't give Likes to FoE stories light-heartedly.

7504623

I also have to disagree with you here. I can see your point: the main storyline of Fall of Equestria is ultimately about people fighting losing battles and coming to grips with a hopeless world, so nothing ever ends well, per se. That means that if I say a character is going to take a risk like joining the resistance, it means they'll probably fail. Of course, I don't want to discuss the actual ending too much, but I will say that I don't think Fall of Equestria as a universe is really about the ultimate endings so much as the journeys. Because, like you said, there are no happy endings in this world so the endings are ultimately all bleak.

This is why while I've started tracking this story, I have not read it yet, and may never do so. I'm not a fan of Dark Fics in general, but I really can't get into pre-ordained dark ending fics. I suppose it's a bit hypocritical, after all, the general run of the mill fic has a preordained happy ending where you know that in the end, no matter what obstacles are in their way, some at least of the good guys will win.

It's not that I'm against the sort of fetish that is represented by this universe, it's how bleak their world is outside of all that constant sex.

Lots of people might like the fantasy of a full on twenty four hour Dom/sub relationship, but reality is far different from fantasy and I can't help thinking about the reality in FoE and that spoils the fetish aspect for me.

But, I know some people are really into the whole grim dark thing, and I have no right to deny them the right to write and read such stories so I'd never give it a down vote for being what it is.

Side note, have you read "Clocktower Society" http://www.fimfiction.net/story/337594/clocktower-society-your-safe-word-is-law

That is a story universe where a scenario like FoE could be played out by the characters, and who afterwards could take a nice long bath and soak and then go back to their everyday lives. For someone like me it's a much more arousing read.

To give my 2 cents in this debate, even as a Fall lover, I do hope for the _hope_ of a happy ending far down the line, even if it is never confirmed, or if it's the last part of the universe shown. It could be 500 years into the future, but still. The Caribou are a perfect villain to have a sort of 'spy-fic' leading to their defeat; Either Discord needs to be freed, or the Elements found (Assuming the elements do fire upon the Caribou), both of these could be done by a stallion with an enchanted object which genderflips them whenever they're about to get hit by the heart's influence. Lots of potential sexiness, leading to a possible happy ending. Set far enough into the future, it wouldn't hurt fic prospects for the universe at large.

7504623

Well I'm glad you didn't take offense to my comments, as I assure you they were not meant to be negative in any way save for constructive criticism. That aside, I would have to question why it is important to you that your story is considered "canon" to begin with. You are a pretty good writer as is, enough that I don't think you need to hide behind a dummy account to avoid the "FoE stigma" as it were, and if anything being considered "canon" is a bad thing. The FoE canon is a garbled mess of conflicting information in and of itself, where even the guy in charge doesn't know what the feck is going on. For instance, as a quick and easy example, you stated in this chapter that horn removal is permanent, and Twipet just recently stated in the public forum that they grow back, and since NCN won't put out an actual statement about it, both opinions are effectively "canon", even though that is not possible. If you want to say that they did something to make it a permanent removal, which I still think is silly for many reasons, then fine, but that's not what you implied in this story. All I'm saying though is that being approved by NCN for a story is like being approved by the Ancient Aliens guy for a historical discovery, as it makes you less credible by association.

Also, I am glad you don't see yourself as my replacement (because who could replace me, amirite?), but regardless of what you think, I know that NCN doesn't have the same sentiments and has outright stated that you are my replacement to other peoples of interest, the exact word being used in conversation between NCN and this other person. It is an issue where, and I already said this to another new FoE addition who I think is above the bar when it comes to this setting, I feel he is not so much bringing you in because you are good (because look who we have to compare you with when it comes to quality of canon), but simply taken advantage of your services because you are there. I have no doubt that should a less qualified person have written out an AJ story before you got to it, they would be my replacement instead, and you would have been put on other projects, or delegated to the realm of non-canon.

That being said, I still think this is a really good story, and have already recommended it to other FoE fans. Though.... what you have said about Mac joining the resistance in chapter 2 now has me a bit worried. It strikes of one of the biggest issues in FoE canon stories, which is making the characters stupid for the sake of the plot. Let me explain.

You have, at this moment, put Mac into a position where joining the resistance is actually against his best interests. His biggest sticking point has just left into the hands of two assholes who will have her for the next week at least. If he was to join the resistance now, he could not guarantee her safety in any regard. It feels like, the way you put it, that Mac has suddenly thought "Well my sister is in the worst situation of her life, so it's time to join the resistance and risk losing her forever".

If this isn't a spontaneous act, which it doesn't feel that way in this chapter or in your explanations below, then Garfan is right, and Mac should have just bludgeoned Flim and Flam to death, took his sister, and ran to the resistance to have the best chance at getting himself and AJ out of this situation. There is no reason he should let her go into what is expressed to be one of the worst situations Applejack could be subjected to. If this is spontaneous, then it has me questioning "where exactly does one go to join the resistance?". Is there a kiosk set up in towns where one can just sign up for the pain train that is sure to come, or do they hand out flyers to the weekly group meetings?

Will Mac be approached by a member of the resistance, who can neither guarantee Mac or AJ's safety, nor has any track record of success that should make Mac confident that this is the best choice? By NCN definition alone all resistances are doomed to failure, and only experience "small victories at the cost of huge losses". In Bruised Apples, Mac had the sensibility to recognize this, and that was why he never joined one, because it is essentially signing off your own death warrant when things are going on smoothly, even if one has to compromise by letting people rape his sister from time to time.

And even if he is approached by someone, and they could convince him that it was safe to join them for whatever reason, why not wait until the seven days are up and he has his sister in his care again. I don't care if you say they can't take her because she is being monitored 24/7 (which she clearly isn't), if Mac can't insure his family's safety, then what's the point? As your story goes, Mac should not just leave Applejack floating in the wind, having god knows what done to her, while he runs a fool's errand. Feel free to dispute and deconstruct this, but I feel that Mac's priorities, at least as you have presented them thus far, should always be on what keeps his sister safe.

That aside, I still like what you are doing so far, but that is a major flop that brings about far too many questions to make this story seem reasonable, at least when mac's sensibility is in question, and I think you can do better if you try. Anyways, I'll take to you later about this if you want, unless you are sick of me already, and I hope you have a nice day. :twilightsmile:

7505224

All I'm saying though is that being approved by NCN for a story is like being approved by the Ancient Aliens guy for a historical discovery, as it makes you less credible by association.

This comment made my day. It's both laugh-out-loud funny and, at least as I see it, absolutely accurate. :pinkiecrazy:

In my case, the fact that this was a canon fic recognized by NCN almost immediately made me less inclined to read it, precisely because I figured NCN was just using this as a replacement for Bruised Apples. I'm kind of glad that I decided to read the story anyway, but I think this might also be the reason why it has so many downvotes.

That said, Schorl, I think you pointed out the problem with the current concept quite nicely. I'm already looking forward to Rand's answer. :twilightsmile:

7504701

I appreciate it.

7504785

Side note, have you read "Clocktower Society"http://www.fimfiction.net/story/337594/clocktower-society-your-safe-word-is-law

That is a story universe where a scenario like FoE could be played out by the characters, and who afterwards could take a nice long bath and soak and then go back to their everyday lives. For someone like me it's a much more arousing read.

I haven't read that story, but I'll check it out sometime. After reading just the description, though, I can see what you mean. For you it's more enjoyable to read a story about sex and debauchery if it's all happening in a self-contained episode and you have the peace of mind of knowing that all of the characters will go back to their regular lives and be "okay" afterwards, and there's something to be said for that sense of "safety." I enjoy those kinds of stories once in a while, too.

I think ultimately it just comes down to personal taste, and NCN himself is inclined towards bleak, depressing fiction so that's just the way the canon FOE universe has turned out. It's a little off-putting sometimes and it certainly isn't for everyone, so if this particular story isn't for you it's no big deal, and I won't hold it against you.

7505078

To give my 2 cents in this debate, even as a Fall lover, I do hope for the _hope_ of a happy ending far down the line, even if it is never confirmed, or if it's the last part of the universe shown. It could be 500 years into the future, but still. The Caribou are a perfect villain to have a sort of 'spy-fic' leading to their defeat; Either Discord needs to be freed, or the Elements found (Assuming the elements do fire upon the Caribou), both of these could be done by a stallion with an enchanted object which genderflips them whenever they're about to get hit by the heart's influence. Lots of potential sexiness, leading to a possible happy ending. Set far enough into the future, it wouldn't hurt fic prospects for the universe at large.

So I've talked to NCN a little about the ultimate ending of the Fall of Equestria universe, and while I don't want to reveal any of that before he wants it to be revealed I will say that I think his interest in keeping FOE stories from having happy endings is not so much about "keeping the possibilities open" as it is "keeping the universe thematically consistent." A story like you mentioned—which, by the way, has a very interesting concept that I'd like to see played out if you ever decide to write a non-canon story—where the Caribou are defeated and hope is restored to Equestria 500 years after the characters we know have died, wouldn't restrict the possibilities for plots set in the present day at all. But it would never fly as canon just because it would be a story that isn't hopeless, and that in itself is incompatible with the vision NCN has for the canon universe. I think he can explain his view on it better than I can though, so I'm hoping he won't mind if I share something he told me while I was in the process of writing this story with you:

Fundamentally, it's a dark and hopeless setting, and I want to make sure we're on the same page in that regard.

NCN is very open about saying that the darkness, and the idea that things may not (and probably won't) ever get better for the "good guys" are a crucial part of his vision for canon FOE. And, at the end of the day, while we all love and feel attached to FOE, I think we have to respect that the canon universe is his universe, and that means we have to respect that his vision hinges on that universe being ultimately hopeless. That's why, to be honest, a story of the flavor you mentioned will never be part of the canon, no matter how disconnected it is from the other stories. That being said, I don't want to discourage you from taking the universe in whatever direction you want to in non-canon stories. Your ideas aren't bad or wrong at all, just not fit for the canon universe.

7505224

Well I'm glad you didn't take offense to my comments, as I assure you they were not meant to be negative in any way save for constructive criticism.

Not at all, in fact I'm grateful that you took the time to jot down and give me your honest opinions about what went right and what went wrong. I think bouncing ideas off of other people is really helpful when you're writing a story, especially one in a shared universe like FOE, so I appreciate anyone who wants to give me input.

That aside, I would have to question why it is important to you that your story is considered "canon" to begin with. You are a pretty good writer as is, enough that I don't think you need to hide behind a dummy account to avoid the "FoE stigma" as it were, and if anything being considered "canon" is a bad thing. The FoE canon is a garbled mess of conflicting information in and of itself, where even the guy in charge doesn't know what the feck is going on. For instance, as a quick and easy example, you stated in this chapter that horn removal is permanent, and Twipet just recently stated in the public forum that they grow back, and since NCN won't put out an actual statement about it, both opinions are effectively "canon", even though that is not possible. If you want to say that they did something to make it a permanent removal, which I still think is silly for many reasons, then fine, but that's not what you implied in this story. All I'm saying though is that being approved by NCN for a story is like being approved by the Ancient Aliens guy for a historical discovery, as it makes you less credible by association.

With all due respect Schorl (and I do respect you), I think what you're saying here is a product of the "canon vs. non-canon," "us vs. them" mentality that I was talking about in my earlier reply. It's definitely not just you, either. I think more than a few people on both "sides" (and I use scare quotes because I don't see them as opposed at all) look at the other one as "illegitimate" or "stupid." But I'm convinced that there's no good reason to think like that. The only reason I chose to write a canon story was because I wanted to work in NCN's collaborative universe rather than going my own way with a non-canon story, but that's all. Both options are fine, but given the choice that's what I wanted to do more. That's just me, and for some writers (like Dark Vessel, who's ideas are valid and interesting but don't necessarily fit into canon) non-canon is the better way to go.

Now, you bring up a fair point, and I'll do my best to respond. The canon FOE storyline has had contradictions in the past, and has at least a few now. I wasn't aware of the horn thing because I haven't spoken to Twipet personally, but I see your point. There's an error here, no one really caught it, and it's unclear when it's going to be resolved. However, I think it's really just the cost of doing business to have a few contradictions like this when you're collaborating with a lot of people, and I don't think it means that the entire canon is a "garbled mess of conflicting information." But even if it were, I think that as long as some people still enjoy reading and writing canon works contradictions aren't too big a deal.

After all, this is all fiction, and we're all just here to have fun. Some people will enjoy canon more, some people will enjoy non-canon more, but there's no reason to have a rivalry between them.

Also, I am glad you don't see yourself as my replacement (because who could replace me, amirite?), but regardless of what you think, I know that NCN doesn't have the same sentiments and has outright stated that you are my replacement to other peoples of interest, the exact word being used in conversation between NCN and this other person. It is an issue where, and I already said this to another new FoE addition who I think is above the bar when it comes to this setting, I feel he is not so much bringing you in because you are good (because look who we have to compare you with when it comes to quality of canon), but simply taken advantage of your services because you are there. I have no doubt that should a less qualified person have written out an AJ story before you got to it, they would be my replacement instead, and you would have been put on other projects, or delegated to the realm of non-canon.

I don't like to speculate too much about this kind of stuff. I mean, I'm not sure who the people you're talking about are, but it's all possible. A lot of stuff is possible. But I think, whatever his thought process was, at the end of the day NCN liked my story, and I wanted to work with him, so it worked out. It is what it is.

That being said, I still think this is a really good story, and have already recommended it to other FoE fans. Though.... what you have said about Mac joining the resistance in chapter 2 now has me a bit worried. It strikes of one of the biggest issues in FoE canon stories, which is making the characters stupid for the sake of the plot. Let me explain.

This is one of those situations where I'm very glad I had someone to give me a second opinion, because you're absolutely right, and you've convinced me. I didn't have a completely finished vision of where Mac was headed since this was meant to be primarily Applejack's story, but I was leaning in the direction that he should seek out the resistance by himself, out of frustration at his inability to affect the world. Now I can see that it's very implausible for him to actively seek out trouble just in the name of wanting to make a difference, especially with his sister out of his hands. I've thought about it and come up with a different idea to achieve the same results. I don't want to go too into detail about it, but I don't mind giving you a basic idea: My new idea is that rather than Mac finding them, the resistance finds him, and getting him to "join" is an uphill battle because of his determination to keep his head down until his sister comes back. I'll have to run all this by NCN, but as of now I'm a lot more satisfied with this idea. Thanks for the input!

7506116
Well I'm glad I can help in this regard. As... hostile as I might come off at times, I promise it is only a quirk of the way I write. That aside, anything I can do to assist further is fine, as I am an idea girl after all. Always thinking and such. ^_^

Now, I do want to address a bit about something, since I think you might be slightly off about my position here. I don't see this as an "Us Vs. Them" thing. Honestly, I could care less about what other FoE contributors do at this point, unless it is interesting like your work here is. If anything, it is more an "Us Vs. Him" issue, since there is really only one problem at this point, that being the "creator" of the setting itself. See, while there are issues with the setting itself, tons of them, more than you could ever know since they are the issues that NCN himself doesn't eve bother to think about, all of them are superfluous in the end. The canon is a mess, trust me on this, I've been in the biz too long to not know what I'm talking about, but really that's fine because everyone has their own opinions of the setting. If you took every story in canon, and looked at it individually, then they would be fine as standalone stories. The problem comes from when you put them together, because while very few people want to actively step on people's toes, everyone does so anyways just by writing things that don't add up with one another. Heck, DocMad openly admits that he doesn't bother looking at other stories "to avoid conflict", when that is exactly the reason why conflicting info happens to begin with.

Sorry, bit of a tangent, now where was I? Oh yes, NCN. The issue here is that NCN really doesn't like things that go outside his mindset. While I won't want to go into EXTREME!!!... detail, I do want to say that NCN is very... restrictive about what he will or will not let get close to his safety bubble, even though in actuality it does him no harm. This, and his poor editing skills, leads to a lot of the problems in the "canon", and also leads to why a lot of people don't really respect him. Don't get me wrong. NCN is a perfectly fine person when he wants to be, but at this point very few people really care about his opinions because in many cases they are logically flawed and fueled by ego.

Now that said, I want to emphasize that this is not a thing where people "just hate FoE". Sure, there are some like that, but I think most people are either smart enough to ignore it if they truly don't like it, or can enjoy it for what it is. But when you start adding in all the stuff that logically doesn't make sense, or the endless amounts of "Caribou rules, ponies drool" that comes with FoE, then people get... perturbed. HEck, I love the dark setting of FoE, but I went through a whole song and dance to teach NCN a lesson he will never learn, and would have been happy to continue working with him if he wasn't such a baby about the whole thing (Sorry, I'm not trying to bad mouth him, really, but his response to a simple stupid ending change was... well you should know).

All I really want at this point is the removal of "canon", because the canon is stupid. Most stories will never see finish, and what we have is, as I put it, a garbled mess because all the voices want to pull things their way, and their way isn't matching up to everyone else's way. FoE never needed a canon, and at least with NCN around accepting anything that makes his dick rise, while not ever making people compromise or getting rid of major issue (like myself before the betrayal) it can't handle a "canon".

So I suppose with all that said, I do have a few questions for you.

1. What does being "canon" really mean to you? What would it matter if your story wasn't canon? Would you feel that it is less "true". Do you like the idea that you have influence on the setting?
2. What if NCN wasn't the creator of th setting. Hypothetically, lets say I came up with the idea, and everything else happened exactly as it did sans NCN (and twipet because I wouldn't have tolerated her ^_^). Would you have then wanted to get my approval to be considered "canon"? Is the concept of who you would follow that fickle that you would just take take the approval of whoever thought up the idea?
3. What does NCN's approval really benefit you? Like I said, he's not really the most respectable person. even his own contributors don't respect him enough to really listen to him, so what does it matter to you if he says yes or no to anything you produce?

Please answer this, because I am curious as a cat, and I'm ready to be killed 8D

7506334

1. What does being "canon" really mean to you? What would it matter if your story wasn't canon? Would you feel that it is less "true". Do you like the idea that you have influence on the setting?

While I said that I think both canon and non-canon stories are valid, I'm going to be very honest and say that I think if a story meets the criteria for being canon and gets NCN's approval, it's better to be part of the canon than not. There's more exposure for canon stories, for one thing, but beyond than that when I wrote this story I really did feel like I was making a contribution to a shared writing universe being simultaneously stitched together by other writers, something bigger than just myself, and that to me made it a better experience than just writing something in the universe on my own would have been. I'm not sure I see the canon as the "true" story of FOE, but as far as I know it's the only large, active collaboration in the universe and that's why I want to be a part of it.

2. What if NCN wasn't the creator of th setting. Hypothetically, lets say I came up with the idea, and everything else happened exactly as it did sans NCN (and twipet because I wouldn't have tolerated her ^_^). Would you have then wanted to get my approval to be considered "canon"? Is the concept of who you would follow that fickle that you would just take take the approval of whoever thought up the idea?

Again, I'm going to be honest: yes. But not just because in this scenario you would be the "leader" who came up with the initial idea. I think the distinction between the entire FOE universe and the canon storyline is that the entire universe is just a broad set of concepts anyone can play around with, but the canon is a specific, controlled collaborative writing project that NCN created within that universe. It's one storyline among many, it's just the one endorsed by the creator of the universe itself. I think people like Dark Vessel should be free to make whatever non-canon stories they want to and NCN shouldn't have the final say over the entire universe, but I think at the same time we have to respect that NCN is the the creator and manager of the "canon" project and allow him discretion over the kind of material he allows in it. For that reason, if you were the creator and manager of the FOE canon I would ask for your approval to join as well, knowing that I would be working to contribute to your project.

3. What does NCN's approval really benefit you? Like I said, he's not really the most respectable person. even his own contributors don't respect him enough to really listen to him, so what does it matter to you if he says yes or no to anything you produce?

Like I've already stated, regardless of what anyone thinks of NCN as an individual, I think we should all respect him as the director of the canon storyline. The validity of some of your complaints notwithstanding, I really think he's entitled to run this project the way he wants to because he's leading it. I also think that if you disagree with him (and, again, you're not necessarily wrong), your best recourse is to start your own project in the universe and write it the way you want to rather than trying to change his vision. There's certainly nothing wrong with having creative disagreements with NCN or not liking his style and wanting to make your own non-canon story instead.

All I really want at this point is the removal of "canon", because the canon is stupid. Most stories will never see finish, and what we have is, as I put it, a garbled mess because all the voices want to pull things their way, and their way isn't matching up to everyone else's way. FoE never needed a canon, and at least with NCN around accepting anything that makes his dick rise, while not ever making people compromise or getting rid of major issue (like myself before the betrayal) it can't handle a "canon".

I think things would have turned out differently, for better or worse, if FOE had never a main storyline to begin with and everything was contradictory fan work. But now that there is an established canon I don't think getting rid of it is the right way to solve the divide between canon fans and canon opponents (or opponents of NCN, which you identify yourself as).

My two cents: I personally think that the best way to solve this problem is for everyone to start thinking of the canon storyline as just one project in the FOE universe that happens to be run by NCN, which it is, and acknowledge that it's not the only such project out there and it doesn't represent the entire universe. If a writer wants to write for the canon, they can ask NCN like they would the leader of any other project and if he likes their work he can agree to let them contribute to it. But if a writer has a difference of opinion with NCN, like so many people have, there's no need to get up in arms about the perceived problems with his project. By all means, give him constructive criticism if you want to (and he can then choose whether or not to listen to it), but after you've done that I think it would make things better to just move on and not dwell on it, and rehash the same grievances over and over. And if they really want to write in the universe anyway, they can certainly start their own collaboration and run it the way they think it should be run. To be clear, I'm not saying any of this maliciously. I'm not trying to tell writers who don't like NCN's world that they should "screw off and go build their own world by themselves and stop bothering the rest of us" or anything like that, but I am saying they shouldn't get hung up on the problems with this project don't like as if it's the "one true storyline" of the universe rather than just a collection of a few people (including, it just so happens, the original creator of the universe) collaboratively making their own stories the way they feel they should. Because that's all it really is.

While I'm talking about prospective solutions, I think the next step after what I mentioned above is to bring all the great non-canon activity and stories over from the Post-Fall of Equestria group to the main Fall of Equestria group as non-canon works. I think seeing that kind of diversity of ideas in the main group, even if NCN's canon storyline stayed the same, would really help people get beyond this false dichotomy of there only being two groups: canon and non-canon. Not only would it bring back some activity to the main group, it would help people see that even if their ideas don't exactly fit with NCN's storyline they're free to write whatever they want to and there are plenty of people already doing just that. I don't think that will happen anytime soon (and not necessarily because of the owners' unwillingness to compromise or anything that like that, just because it's a difficult situation for everyone), but I think it would go a long way towards unifying a fractured community.

7504785
I tried to enjoy that story. I... sort of can't.

There's no risk. No excitement. It feels bland and overly cushy, like a game of Sarcastaball without the cynical attitude behind it. It's still written well, but, well, just not that interesting to me.

It doesn't help that the story also draws the sort of people to it who hold it up as the example for how kinky stories should be and anyone who writes differently is obviously mentally unsound.

7506691

While I'm talking about prospective solutions, I think the next step after what I mentioned above is to bring all the great non-canon activity and stories over from the Post-Fall of Equestria group to the main Fall of Equestria group as non-canon works. I think seeing that kind of diversity of ideas in the main group, even if NCN's canon storyline stayed the same, would really help people get beyond this false dichotomy of there only being two groups: canon and non-canon. Not only would it bring back some activity to the main group, it would help people see that even if their ideas don't exactly fit with NCN's storyline they're free to write whatever they want to and there are plenty of people already doing just that. I don't think that will happen anytime soon (and not necessarily because of the owners' unwillingness to compromise or anything that like that, just because it's a difficult situation for everyone), but I think it would go a long way towards unifying a fractured community.

This bit is interesting, because honestly I have the same idea, or at least, I believe that there should be a neutral area where FoE fans of all kinds can get together. Unfortunately, that place will never be the main group, as NCN would never allow it. Trust me, he insists on all mentions of "post fall" stay far away from there, which is silly really. I am a believer of the concept "there's no such thing as bad publicity", and by rejecting the post fall, NCN has brought on a lot of scorn. Tell me, would you support the idea of a place being made that can showcase all FoE titles, and perhaps even titles of a similar nature, should the authors approve of their placement there?

7507091
In theory, I think any group that includes all Fall of Equestria stories is a step in the right direction and I agree with the spirit of what you're trying to do, but in practice unfortunately I'm not sure that would work. Right off the bat, I don't think NCN would approve of canon stories being added to another group, since he wants to keep activity centered in the main group. You could form the group and give it a shot, sure, but I worry it would just turn into another place for non-canon FOE stories only.

Unfortunately, that place will never be the main group, as NCN would never allow it. Trust me, he insists on all mentions of "post fall" stay far away from there, which is silly really. I am a believer of the concept "there's no such thing as bad publicity", and by rejecting the post fall, NCN has brought on a lot of scorn.

I understand what you're saying here, but I still think the ball is in the Post-Fall of Equestria group's court when it comes to fixing this issue. Hear me out. Correct me if I'm wrong, but NCN's grievance is really just with the "Post-Fall" group and not with the actual "Post-Fall" stories, right? I mean, the main Fall of Equestria group has a "Fan Works" folder with stories with all kinds of outrageous concepts that would never work in the canon storyline, and people in the main group forums discuss non-canon story ideas openly. I don't think he'd have a problem with the stories that make up Post-Fall of Equestria being moved to the "Fan Works" folder, and I don't think he'd have a problem with discussion of them either given that people already discuss non-canon ideas.

I think the only thing he would have a problem with allowing in his group is the mentality that a large part of the "Post-Fall" community has—it's no secret that a lot of people who write and participate in that group don't like NCN or his vision for the canon. Now I don't dislike this group, and I don't think they complain just because they like hearing the sounds of their own voices. In a lot of ways, I can sympathize with where they're coming from, and I even agree with some of what they say they don't like. But I also think that they've fallen prey to the problem I was talking about earlier: I think they've started to see the canon storyline as "the one true storyline" of the FOE universe rather than what it is, just a tightly-controlled writing project set in the FOE universe that happens to have been started by the person who created the universe itself. One, among many. Because of that, instead of giving their input on the canon storyline one time and then moving on, to be blunt I think they've been "rehashing the same grievances over and over again" for a while. Not only that, but frankly I think some of what's being discussed has gotten really negative on a personal level, especially regarding NCN. I really think that if they just looked at the canon as just one project whose direction they disagree with, and then they gave their two cents and moved on, NCN wouldn't have a problem letting them back into the fold.

I think if they tried it could work. Like I said, they can move their content and constructive discussion into the main Fall of Equestria group (anyone can put a story in the fan stories folder). I don't think they'd have to keep their lips sealed and stop criticizing the canon completely either. As long as the criticism is polite and impersonal, people criticize the canon from time to time in the main group, and they could too. But the most important thing I think is that they recognize that they've said their peace on the canon and been heard and also recognize that the canon is just some private project that's out there and changing it is up to the discretion of the person running it, and then move on to focus on their own stories.

7506907

It doesn't help that the story also draws the sort of people to it who hold it up as the example for how kinky stories should be and anyone who writes differently is obviously mentally unsound.

I will give you that.
I've read a lot of hard core clop, and adult fiction in other places and enjoyed them. But as with the Gor Books I have trouble with a zero hope scenario and where the society it is build around triggers my bull radar to such an extent that it rips me out of the story and I spend more time being angry at the political set up than enjoying the clop.

I like Clocktower because of the potential. What we've seen are snippets, but it would be possible to do a full story focusing on all sorts of scenarios. Heck, I bet there is an extended long running game that mimics to a certain extent the situation in FoE. The writer would only have to pay a minimum of lip service to the fact that it is taking place in a consensual environment, and just focus on the plot of the story line the 'players' are playing.

7506691

I don't think that will happen anytime soon (and not necessarily because of the owners' unwillingness to compromise or anything that like that, just because it's a difficult situation for everyone), but I think it would go a long way towards unifying a fractured community.

Rand, I have been banned from the Main group entirely for no other reason but because I write a FoE-related (Post-Fall) story that isn't to NCN's liking. Other people have been banned for similar reasons. I think the main reason why this isn't going to happen is precisely because of NCN's unwillingness to compromise.

7507492

Correct me if I'm wrong, but NCN's grievance is really just with the "Post-Fall" group and not with the actual "Post-Fall" stories, right? [...] I don't think he'd have a problem with the stories that make up Post-Fall of Equestria being moved to the "Fan Works" folder, and I don't think he'd have a problem with discussion of them either given that people already discuss non-canon ideas.

You are quite wrong, unfortunately. The Post-Fall group was created to begin with mainly because NCN didn't tolerate any Post-Fall related discussions, ideas, or stories in the Main group. As I said, NCN even bans users from the Main group for no other reason than because they write Post-Fall stories. I'm one example of that.

I think the only thing he would have a problem with allowing in his group is the mentality that a large part of the "Post-Fall" community has—it's no secret that a lot of people who write and participate in that group don't like NCN or his vision for the canon. Now I don't dislike this group, and I don't think they complain just because they like hearing the sounds of their own voices. In a lot of ways, I can sympathize with where they're coming from, and I even agree with some of what they say they don't like. But I also think that they've fallen prey to the problem I was talking about earlier: I think they've started to see the canon storyline as "the one true storyline" of the FOE universe rather than what it is, just a tightly-controlled writing project set in the FOE universe that happens to have been started by the person who created the universe itself. One, among many. Because of that, instead of giving their input on the canon storyline one time and then moving on, to be blunt I think they've been "rehashing the same grievances over and over again" for a while.

I actually mostly agree with that. I see similar problems with the current state of Post-Fall. I even sort of agree with your diagnosis. Yes, if the guys over at Post-Fall stopped seeing NCN and his contributor group as the determining factor with regards to the setting, they would stop raising the same criticism over and over again and maybe instead start doing something productive.

But then again, as I see it, you also still advocate accepting NCN and his contributor group as the main determining factor with regards to the setting. For example, you advocate a return of all non-canon stories to the Main group, Post-Fall included (which NCN won't agree to), but you rule out the possibility of a new group in addition to NCN's that collects all FoE stories, including the canon ones (which, as you said, NCN will also never agree to). I get the feeling that you want to eat your cake and keep it too... but maybe I'm wrong.

(Incidentally, I would actually advocate for the second version. NCN can keep his own group for his canon stories, and also for non-canon stories he finds appealing - and we also create a new group that collects all FoE stories, including his canon ones. As you said, NCN won't allow it because he wants to keep activity focused on the Main group. But then again, I'm fairly certain he won't agree to your alternative proposal either.)

Not only that, but frankly I think some of what's being discussed has gotten really negative on a personal level, especially regarding NCN.

Well, it's not like NCN was overly nice to these people. For example, why don't you write PMs to ObsidianPony and Gizmo Hibiki and ask them why they were banned from the Main group? You could ask NCN himself, of course, but I would advocate at least hearing out both sides of the story.

The problem I see with your reasoning is that it simply doesn't line up with NCN's ideas and actions. If NCN was thinking and acting the way you claim he was, then this might work. Unfortunately, he isn't.

7507675

I like Clocktower because of the potential. What we've seen are snippets, but it would be possible to do a full story focusing on all sorts of scenarios. Heck, I bet there is an extended long running game that mimics to a certain extent the situation in FoE. The writer would only have to pay a minimum of lip service to the fact that it is taking place in a consensual environment, and just focus on the plot of the story line the 'players' are playing.

I don't know, T. The extreme emphasis on consent is the whole point behind it (and to be fair, the writer him/herself isn't as obnoxious as some of the audience); wouldn't deviating from that go against their vision? Would it be possible to deviate even?

Dusk Shine Rising also mostly has consensual content, yet it feel much less like it's beating the reader over the head with it. Maybe Clocktower could be more fun without the constant winking and nudging.

7507694

Rand, I have been banned from the Main group entirely for no other reason but because I write a FoE-related (Post-Fall) story that isn't to NCN's liking. Other people have been banned for similar reasons. I think the main reason why this isn't going to happen is precisely because of NCN's unwillingness to compromise.

Actually when I said "owners" I was referring to the owners of the Post-Fall of Equestria group (I didn't want what I was saying to come off as insulting to you or the other Post-Fall owners), but it was worded ambiguously so I can see where the confusion happened.

Well, it's not like NCN was overly nice to these people. For example, why don't you write PMs to ObsidianPony and Gizmo Hibiki and ask them why they were banned from the Main group? You could ask NCN himself, of course, but I would advocate at least hearing out both sides of the story.

I see where you're coming from. It's true, you, and these other two people you mentioned were banned from the main group. And you're right, I should be making an effort to get both sides of the story as much as I can, so I looked it up. But, to be honest, it seems to me that none of you were banned just for writing stories. Definitely correct me if I'm wrong because this is just what I read, but this stuff below is why you were banned, right?

Aristagtle:

I was banned because I mentioned in one of my postings that I was planning to use Dainn in a Post-Fall story without having NCN's permission, and that I would use Dainn even if NCN explicitly denied his permission.

ObsidianPony and Gizmo Hibiki:

For example, he has banned Gizmo and Obsidian for disagreeing with his claim that the caribou aren't thieves.

I got this stuff from this thread, and from what I can tell you and the others who posted about being banned there were banned because they either disagreed with NCN on some aspect of how the canon was written, or, in your case, because you said something that offended him. Now, you may be right that that's not a fair reason to ban someone from the main group. You may not have done anything wrong. But independent of that, he didn't just ban you because you wrote a story in an unsatisfactory way. He wasn't trying to censor non-canon stories.

But then again, as I see it, you also still advocate accepting NCN and his contributor group as the main determining factor with regards to the setting. For example, you advocate a return of all non-canon stories to the Main group, Post-Fall included (which NCN won't agree to), but you rule out the possibility of a new group in addition to NCN's that collects all FoE stories, including the canon ones (which, as you said, NCN will also never agree to). I get the feeling that you want to eat your cake and keep it too... but maybe I'm wrong.

(Incidentally, I would actually advocate for the second version. NCN can keep his own group for his canon stories, and also for non-canon stories he finds appealing - and we also create a new group that collects all FoE stories, including his canon ones. As you said, NCN won't allow it because he wants to keep activity focused on the Main group. But then again, I'm fairly certain he won't agree to your alternative proposal either.)

Now, I don't want you to get the wrong idea. I'm advocating for anyone who disagrees with the canon and wants to move on to write their own stuff to definitely take the canon with a grain of salt and just set it aside if they don't want to follow it. In fact, I think the problem is that too many people look at the canon as the "main determining factor," like you said. I don't rule out the idea of a new group at all, I just said I don't think it could work out for the reason you mentioned.

The only reason I wanted everyone to move to the main group is that I think it's more likely that that group will be able to contain both canon and Post-Fall stories than any other group. Like I said to Schorl, I agree with the spirit of what you want to do but I don't think a second group will ever have the canon storyline. On the other hand, I'm not so sure that Post-Fall stories aren't ever going to be accepted into the main group. If you look at the "Fan Works" folder, it seems like there are already plenty of stories there that don't comply with canon, and the content there isn't moderated at all. I think yours would fit in fine. It really seems to me as though what NCN had a problem with was your opinions about the canon, and not your non-canon ideas.

You don't even need NCN's approval to put a story in the "Fan Works" folder, because it isn't locked. Maybe you're right and it wouldn't work, but have you tried putting them there and giving it a shot?

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But, to be honest, it seems to me that none of you were banned just for writing stories.

Obsidian and Gizmo were banned for disagreeing with NCN when he said that the caribou weren't thieves.

The reason why I was banned from the Main group was indeed because I was writing a Post-Fall story, more specifically a story about Dainn's defeat and the regime's end (which is more or less the definition of Post-Fall).

You don't even need NCN's approval to put a story in the "Fan Works" folder, because it isn't locked. Maybe you're right and it wouldn't work, but have you tried putting them there and giving it a shot?

I did not know that. I'm banned from the Main group, so I probably won't be able to try it any more.
But maybe someone else could try it out.

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Edit: It seems like I replied to an older version of your comment.

The reason why I was banned from the Main group was indeed because I was writing a Post-Fall story, more specifically a story about Dainn's defeat and the end of the regime (which is more or less the definition of Post-Fall).

Honestly, it seems like you were banned less for the story idea and more for saying you would do something that was against NCN's wishes:

I was planning to use Dainn in a Post-Fall story without having NCN's permission, and . . . I would use Dainn even if NCN explicitly denied his permission.

You were banned for a comment, before you had even written the story, right? Now I can't say whether banning you for that was the right or wrong decision, but either way I think it's not really the same as you just writing story and then being banned for the content in that story.

The problem with this is that you still effectively support NCN in his reasons for why he won't allow it, even though you disagree with them.

Do you mean that I support NCN's right to not allow the canon stories to be reshelved in a different group? If that's what you're talking about, then my opinion is that this is another case where we have to respect that the canon is NCN's personal project and that even if we don't always agree with his decisions about it they're his decisions to make. If it were my choice I probably wouldn't mind the canon stories being put somewhere else in addition to the main group, but if he doesn't think that then I think it's important to respect it the way we'd respect any creator's right to the distribution of their work.

If you look at the stories in the fan works folder, they all share the feature that they don't really challenge the caribou regime, let alone have it actually end. Isn't it curious that there isn't even one single Post-Fall story in the folder?

There's no denying it, you're right. There aren't any stories like that as of now. But is it possible that Post-Fall writers have self-segregated? The Post-Fall group was created a long time ago, so is it possible that everyone interested in that realm of the FOE universe naturally migrated over to your group and added their story there? It's not a rhetorical question, I'm really not sure. Like I said, the "Fan Works" folder is completely open and doesn't require NCN's permission to access (and judging by the variety of stories already there, it doesn't seem like he cares what gets put in), so I think it's conceivable that Post-Fall writers just haven't been interested in putting their stories there. It's certainly not their fault or yours, either. Maybe it just hasn't seemed worthwhile to them since all Post-Fall of Equestria discussion has gravitated away from the main group.

I did not know that. I'm banned from the Main group, so I probably won't be able to try it any more. But maybe someone else could try?

Well I'm really glad you're willing to give it a try, and I hope it works out. In fact, since I'm part of the group, with your permission I wouldn't mind adding them for you.

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Honestly, it seems like you were banned less for the story idea and more for saying you would do something that was against NCN's wishes.

Well, that's kind of the point, isn't it? The point is that I wasn't willing to let NCN dictate what I was going to do in my story. That's kind of the point of remaining non-canon to begin with. This also isn't about Dainn as a character. You simply can't write a Post-Fall story without taking up characters and story elements from FoE. If that's a deal-breaker for NCN, then it means that literally all of Post-Fall is per say against his wishes.

You were banned for a comment, before you had even written the story, right?

No, I was already writing it.

Well I'm really glad you're willing to give it a try, and I hope it works out. In fact, since I'm part of the group, with your permission I wouldn't mind adding them for you.

I have to think about this first. I really want to try it out, but I'm somewhat reluctant to have my own story added to a group where I was essentially banned for writing it. Give me one or two days.

I also wonder if Schorl would be interested in participating in this experiment as well. Bruised Apples is still also a FoE fan work after all. Also, by now my own story draws more heavily on it than on the canon stories. There might even be other Post-Fall authors who would be interested in participating in such an experiment as well.

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All of Post-Fall is against NCN's wishes. That's kind of the point, isn't it? The point is that I wasn't going to let NCN dictate what I was going to do in my story. That's kind of the point of remaining non-canon to begin with. This also isn't about Dainn as a character. You simply can't write a Post-Fall story without taking up characters and story elements from FoE. If that's a deal-breaker for NCN, then it means that he rejects Post-Fall itself.

No, what I meant is that I think you were banned simply because NCN perceived the tone of your comment as rude or disrespectful or something, not because you were writing a non-canon story. Again, I'm not making any judgments about whether he was right to ban you or not, and maybe he wasn't. All I'm saying is that I don't think you were banned as censorship of an an offensive idea, even if it was an idea NCN didn't personally like. Based on the fact that the non-canon folder of the main group (while it doesn't have any Post-Fall stories now) contains crossovers and particularly specific fetish stories that make use of characters and story elements from the FOE universe but wouldn't belong in the canon, I think NCN is indifferent to the non-canon as long as no one tries to tell him how to run his project.

No, I was already writing it.

Well, sure, but that's besides the point. What I meant was that NCN was banning you based on the comment, not banning you after having read your story and disliked it.

I haven't decided yet. I'm somewhat reluctant to have my own story added to a group where I was essentially banned for writing it. I have to think about this. Give me one or two days.

Take your time, definitely, and if you decide you don't want to that's completely up to you as author. But once again, I seriously don't think you were banned just because of your story idea.

I also wonder if Schorl would be interested in participating in this experiment as well. Bruised Apples is still also a FoE fan work after all. Also, by now my own story draws more heavily on it than on the canon stories. There might even be other Post-Fall authors who would be interested in participating in such an experiment as well.

I'd be willing to do this for any Post-Fall author that wants their story in the main Fall of Equestria group. In fact, most of them can do it themselves since they aren't banned from it.

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No, what I meant is that I think you were banned simply because NCN perceived the tone of your comment as rude or disrespectful or something, not because you were writing a non-canon story.

Actually, no. After I was banned, The Great Derpsby asked NCN for the reason, and from what Derpsby told me, NCN told him that he banned me because I was using elements and characters from FoE in my story (specifically Dainn and the caribou) without his permission, and in ways that he didn't agree with. There was no mention of rudeness anywhere.

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Actually, no. After I was banned, The Great Derpsby asked NCN for the reason, and from what Derpsby told me, NCN had told him that he banned me because I was using elements and characters from FoE in my story (specifically Dainn and the caribou) without his permission. No mention of rudeness anywhere.

Well, if that's the reason he gave then that's what we have to go on. Fair enough. But still, the main group contains non-canon stories that don't resemble the canon at all, and NCN seems indifferent. Maybe at the time you were writing your story he was a lot less lenient with the universe, but as of now it seems like he's allowed for quite a bit of non-canon deviation from the main storyline. It could really just be that things have changed, but no one has tried to bring Post-Fall stories to the main group in a while.

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As I said, I'll take some time to think about it and then tell you my decision.

Hmm. Since Applejack didn't notice anything unusual about Trixie's breast size, I assume this takes place before they start injecting her with the many happy juices they create from Hive Larvae?

Verdict 4/10

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Ok.... now that I have caught up with the bickering, I feel it is time to set a few things straight, once and for all.

Ahem.... NCN does purposely censor any ideas that go against his own.

I know, that might be a bit extreme, and perhaps a bit unfair (I mean I didn't really HAVE to underline it), but I want to make this clear. NCN has removed people for disagreeing with his blanket statements that were logically false. He has tried to influence people to change their Post fall stories to ones more to his liking, and then refused to give any further requested information when he realized he wasn't going to get his way. NCN has removed stories from the from the fan works because they were subject matter that could be considered "post-fall". NCN has gone to the point of getting an image removed from Derpibooru, because it had loose references to FoE, and went against his little fetishes. How do I know this? Because it was part of my job to inform him about this shit so he could remove it as quickly and efficiently as possible. Most of the deleted comments in the FoE forum are done by him, because of the material that was talked about, even if he didn't ban the people involved, and when he does ban a person it is over petty issues.

You can try to defend NCN all you want, but the fact of the matter is that he is incredibly prejudic againts the post fall, enough to have me advocate for him to get another contributor to stop posting comments there. Enough to have me spy on members of the group. Enough to not scold me for "stringing along" tarvoc, and calling him an idiot to his face. He gave me permission to berate fans when they said stupid shit, and at times even joined me in mocking a certain contributor I don't really care for in private (three guesses on who that might be~)

And BTW, I know that Tarvoc and I cannot post our stories in the fan works section, because I've tried already. I suppose it is part of being banned, but since we are not part of the group, we cannot submit stories to it. So in a way, yes, we cannot have our stories placed in there because NCN won't let us.

I don't want to go into an NCN rant, but let me just get all this out in the open. NCN is a person who is not respected even by the people in his group. Whenever there is a problem, they pin it on his failings, which while I think is a poor abandonment of personal responsibility, is not exactly untrue either. I too have had issues with his shortcomings, having had to deal with a lot of his hang ups, but I never let those get in the way of what I wanted. People have left the group because of his management and decisions aside from me, and this is an issue that continues to this day. Even Docmadfox, a person who will defend NCN, constantly says that he doesn't approve of his methods in public. In fact, the only "dependable" writer he has left in his ranks (newbies notwithstanding, no offense) only sticks around because they are paid, and needs their ego fix every now and then. (one of those things might be more true than the other, but I bet you can't guess which one).

But enough about NCN, I want to talk about you, and your adamant defense on what you assume are NCN's procedures when it comes to the post fall. I'm curious, really, as to why you give NCN so much credit. To be honest, you could just say that you know that NCN is a dirt bag, and that you don't care, and that would save a lot of trouble. So I want to cut to the chase and finish this right now, one way or another. Tell me, what is it going to take to get out of that dirty old shadow of NCN's, and into a new independence today? Normally I wouldn't even think of trying to convince you of leaving NCN, because honestly I don't care if you are canon or not as long as your story is good, but you are so in denial of all this that I just want to know what exactly NCN would have to do in order to get you to say "fuck this shit". Because I'll tell you this, whatever you come up with probably has happened, is happening, and will happen again in the future.

So please, lay it on me, and let me press that button ^_^.

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Uh, Hive Larvae? Is that a Changeling thing? I haven't watched the latest episode, but that sounds like a Changeling thing.

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I respect your opinion (and your taste in music), but if you're going to leave a rating like that I'd appreciate it if you also told me what you didn't like, so I can improve in the future.

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I hope the conversation with Aristagtle didn't come off too much like bickering. :twilightsheepish: I was just trying to talk things through.

Anyway, I've looked into the issue more since I talked to him and I realize now that you're right. I wasn't getting the full picture, and since you've been working on the project a lot longer than I have I should have put more stock in your judgement. Sorry. It's clear to me now that, whatever his reasons, NCN isn't interested in having Post-Fall of Equestria stories or discussions in the main group. The Fan Works folder is not a place for all kinds of non-canon stories like I thought it was:

Fans of the series are encouraged to write their own stories within the universe (provided they don't step outside the thematic boundaries) and place them in the Fan Works folder.

I don't personally agree with this, but once again I have to respect that the main Fall of Equestria group is NCN's group, and he has the right to run it the way he wants to run it. Post-Fall stories won't be moving into the main group, and the canon stories probably won't be moving out of it. Unfortunately I think the way things are right now is the best they can get for the time being: there's a main FOE group for those who enjoy the canon and stories thematically similar to the canon, and there's a second group for those who enjoy other kinds of FOE stories. Both communities have a place to share their stories and talk about their interests, and there's something to be said for that, at least. It would be better if everything was concentrated in a single group, but if that's not on the table then there's not much we can do. Sucks, but it seems like that's just the way it is.

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Uh, Hive Larvae? Is that a Changeling thing? I haven't watched the latest episode, but that sounds like a Changeling thing.

Sorry, I probably should have explained this in greater detail.
The Hive Larvae mentioned are from a fictional new(?) species found in the Fall-verse. Linking to explicit sources isn't allowed in FimFiction, so you'd need to look it up on Derpibooru. The Hive creatures are a bit like facehuggers, only they don't kill their host but body-control them, breed them, and alter their internal chemistry (such as making their boobs grow and putting them in perma-heat). So, facebuggers, really.

One pic has Flim and Flam inject a concoction made of Hive pheromones into Trixie, their test subject, who they say is becoming overall increasingly horny and whose bust is growing now as well.

Since this came as such a surprise, I'm going to assume you don't plan on working the content from that picture into the story! :twilightsheepish:

Comment posted by Aristagtle deleted Aug 25th, 2016

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Post-Fall stories won't be moving into the main group, and the canon stories probably won't be moving out of it.

Incidentally, as far as I know, if you create a new group, you can add any kinds of stories and not even the authors can do much about it. Schorl and I have already agreed with each other that we're not going to do that, but as far as I know, it is possible and not against fimfiction's rules (correct me if I'm wrong).

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I wasn't aware of that. I'm not all up-to-date with the Derpibooru pics. I looked it up and I think I found the pic you were talking about. Cheerilee is there, right? It's a interesting concept, but, yeah, I don't think I'm going I'm going to be tackling it in this particular story.

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Incidentally, as far as I know, if you create a new group, you can add any kinds of stories and not even the authors can do much about it. Schorl and I have already agreed with each other that we're not going to do that, but as far as I know, it is possible and not against fimfiction's rules (correct me if I'm wrong).

This is probably possible, but I think you should always get the authors' consent before moving stories into another group.

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The one I'm talking about is pic number 1041911. Now why the heck didn't I just do that in the first place? So stupid!:rainbowlaugh:

Well, either way, I'm sure whatever direction you'll take this in will work out fine!

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My bad. I read "facehugger" without finishing the paragraph and started looking for a pic where Trixie has an animal proboscis in her mouth. Funnily enough, there's an unrelated pic exactly like that, too: 340280

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Indeed she has! And she's getting spanked, always a plus in my book! Granted, not by Flim and Flam, but that's what the other pic is for. :raritywink:

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This is probably possible, but I think you should always get the authors' consent before moving stories into another group.

I agree with that. As I said, Schorl and I have already decided that we won't do it without the authors' consent.

That said, what matters to me is the author's consent. So for example, if one of the canon authors agreed to having their story added to a new group, I wouldn't care for NCN's opinion. Not that this is likely to happen, but I only mention it to make it clear how I see it. Not entirely sure, but I suspect that Schorl will agree with this.

What year did this take place in? is defiantly one of them and most important one there is. I would have to say a little more details if you would. Such as background weather and lighting. To make have more feel.

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Sure. I think as long as you have consent, there's no harm giving it a try.

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I see your point about a lack of imagery—my style tends to favor dialogue over imagery, but I can understand if you would've preferred more descriptive sections.

What do you mean by "year," though? It takes place at the same time as the rest of the canon stories, more or less, if that's what you're asking? Does the canon universe have a dating system that I'm not aware of? It's very possible.

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It takes place at the same time as the rest of the canon stories, more or less, if that's what you're asking?

Well, for example, it most definitely takes place after Twipet's "Sun's Setting", and also after Silent Dream's "Twilight Falls". In "Sun's Setting", Equestria hasn't even been conquered yet. "Twilight Falls" tells the story of the conquest of Canterlot, and your story clearly takes place after that. Also, in "Twilight Falls", Ponyville hasn't been taken yet so far. So yes, despite of its inconsistencies, there definitely is such a thing as a canon timeline.

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Right, it definitely takes place after both of those stories. When I said "at the same time, more or less," I just meant that it's taking place in the same rough period of a few years.

I know the canon universe has at least a rough sequential history, but when I said "dating system" I was wondering if there was actually some official, concrete timeline that delineates the months and years when certain events happened. The way Rye Snoot asked for the "year" the story takes place in gave me the impression they were looking for an answer like "this story is set in 3 AD (After Dainn)" or something like that. I've looked and I can't find a timeline or calendar system like that, though, so I have no idea what they were really asking for.

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Well, I guess it has to be some time in the first year after the conquest of Canterlot.

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My personal opinion, never say tht a story ever happens past year one. The further away you get from the initial invasion, the less plausible it becomes that anyone is still bothering to fight all this (at least in the canon universe. In a more sensible universe, most blacks would either cnvert to red collars, or kill themselves, because "fuck this shit"). Again though, personal opinion.

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Well, you could always do what the show does and bullsh*t about it! :trollestia:

Okay, that was mostly a joke. The part about also doing that, I mean. A good timeline does a story good indeed.
Friendship is Magic's timeline is a total mess. They try to get around it by using "moons" as measuring unit, but never clarify what that actually is.

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I probably won't explicitly talk about the exact date in the story, but it does make sense for it to be close after the original invasion. I imagine somewhere between a few months and a year.

I always assumed a "moon" in the show was short for "full moon," as in one month, but then again I never paid too much attention to what periods of time they were measuring whenever they said the word so that probably wasn't how it was used.

He exhaled hotly, and gritted his teeth. “Are you finally starting to get it, Applejack?" he asked, in a voice barely higher than a whisper. "Pretend time is over. The trick is finished. It’s time to pay up.”

Surprisingly good start. Dark as hell of course courtesy of the setting, but you had an interesting take on Flim and Flam.

That being said, I think they're still both idiots. They intend to break Applejack just like they did Trixie after Big Mac threatened to murder them if they did so.

I like to believe they had a conversation in the afterlife that goes like this after Big Mac finds out what they're trying.

"Brother, I do believe you miscalculated," Flim said to Flam.

"Whatever do you mean, Flam?"

"You said, and may I quote, 'Hey, brother-wouldn't breaking Applejack be quite the fun thing to do?' to which I responded yes but when I brought up that overprotective brother of hers, you said, 'Oh he's just all talk and no action. He'd never dare actually do anything.'" Flim said.

"I do seem to recall this conversation. What is your point?"Flam said

"Well, while our last moments are hazy, I distinctly remember dropping Applejack off at Sweet Apple Acres covered in cum and with delightful purple collar, that Big Mac fellow somehow teleported from the other side of the orchard, grabbed us by our necks, I hard a distinct snap and then everything went dark. Why, I do say I think he murdered both of us in cold blood."

"That certainly seems to be the case. How was I supposed to know he was dangerous?" Flim said.

"He bench presses apple trees brother and, may I remind you, threatened to murder us despite your claims he was harmless." Flam said.

"That he did." Flam said.

"Brother?" Flim said.

"Yes?"

"Fuck you." Flam said.

Overall, this looks like it could be rather interesting, and I'd like to see where you take it.

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