Light in the Darkness · 1:37pm Jun 7th, 2014
art by Hobbes-Maxwell
Last night, I spent time with a good friend who really needed to talk after having just finished reading a story whose last several chapters plunged deeply into nihilism.
The story apparently ended with the death of hope, with the heroine giving up, losing everything and with the universe on a doomed path with the forces that be saying this is how it must be. Several final chapters of inevitable, crushing pointlessness. My friend likened it to having invested time and emotion into a great story only to have it turn to ashes.
art by Scarletmarine
It's an experience many of us would want to avoid. Still, the story was tagged "Sad", so it wasn't as if there was no warning. (And it isn't as if either nihilism or depressing stories are that uncommon, even in a fandom based around a cheerful and upbeat cartoon about colorful, magical ponies. If anything, it is probably to be more expected in this fandom than others because of the stark contrast.) But I cannot help but think we need something more here.
Last year, in an interview by The Brony Bookclub, I was asked about tags. First, which ones will entice me to read a story? Second, which ones cause me to avoid a story? This was my response:
I like a lot of tags, but I think the one that is probably most enticing is Adventure. Who doesn't like a good adventure? And Adventure has the special merit of not only being in harmony with the show itself, but also playing very well with other tags.
I wouldn't say there are any tags that I avoid. The tags are just one element of what I look at when deciding whether or not to read a story. Some might make me more cautious, and I would say the chief amongst those is Sad. Sad is a lot like Grimdark. You can have elements of Sad in an amazing story; and properly utilized, Sad will make a story more compelling and poignant. But Sad has to work in service of something else, and not just be there for its own sake. If a story is just sad, with no other point than being sad, then I'm won't read it. I'm sorry, but I don't read Friendship is Magic stories to make myself depressed.
Full podcast video. (Warning: LONG)
My likening Sad to Grimdark harkened back to an essay that predates my joining FIMfiction in which I said the following:
I don't care for "grimdark."
A bizarre statement, perhaps, for someone who obviously writes grimdark-- Fallout: Equestria is a 600K word grimdark magnum opus. But Fallout: Equestria isn't a story about grimdark -- it's not about blood and mutilation, sadism and death. Instead, Fallout: Equestria is a story about standing up against evil no matter the cost. It is a story about lighting candles in the darkness. About the value and vulnerability of virtue, and the necessity and strength of friendship.
None of which really works as powerfully or successfully without grimdark. You cannot stir a reader's soul with a tale of lighting candles against the slight dimness. Pinkie Pie will be the first to point out that the call to stand against evil isn't very compelling when the villain is The Dreaded Bringer of Cotton Candy and Chocolate Milk.
So let me rephrase that: I don't care for "grimdark for the sake of grimdark."
Grimdark, when utilized to a more poignant and noble end can be a beautiful thing. I offer up Silent Ponyville as an excellent example of grimdark done right. But grimdark for the sake of shock, and character assassination, and just turning something beautiful into something ugly? I don't like it. Not one bit. [del] I will admit it: I have a low tolerance for bullies. Hurting hurts. Pointless and excessive cruelty is neither fun nor funny. As such, I don't want to spend time with [a story] whose only purpose is to make me feel disgusted, despondent and upset.
Please keep in mind that this is just my own personal preference. If you enjoy stories like this, that's great. And plenty of people do. These stories cater to a lot of bronies who are looking for exactly what they deliver. I don't want to suggest there is anything inherently wrong with these stories. Nor am I judging you if your tastes run towards Rainbow Factory or Rainbow Dash Gets an Abortion just because it's not the sort of thing I want to read. Please see my previous blog: It's Okay to Like Things. 
So, then, what more is called for? What are we missing?
I think perhaps we need a new tag. Something that can stand alone, but is most helpful when paired with tags such as Sad or Dark to help differentiate, to help signify just what kind of story the reader is getting into. But not a tag to act as further warning or discouragement. Not a "No, seriously, this is really dark" tag. Instead, I recommend this one:
HOPE
I think this is what we could really use. I'd definitely add the Hope tag to Fallout: Equestria. 
art by Makkon
I'd add 'uplifting' and 'mystery' as well.
I always find myself agreeing with what you have to say, Kkat.
~PC
I like the idea of Hope as a new tag. It would allow stories to have open endings, but not ones that just leave everything bleak as hell.
I hope your friend wasn't reading background pony. I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy (Whom I would inflict the twilight series upon.) But so often, the dark, tragic, and sad tags, are just not really used right. even grimdark rarely is. It is more shock value than most anything else.
I would love seeing that, as a counterpoint to the above three. Hope is something truly good, that for all the depths that a place may go. That light, will be there, for however long it lasts against the crushing depths a place may go. So long as one can see that, the dark is never so wrong, but a small comfort in a weary world.
I love a good tag that incorporates the three above. I do, done right, it lets you see the world in such a way you can smile bittersweet. It hurts, but it isnt bad, not entirely. I do lack the right words to explain it, but no matter how far one descends, if one can look up, and see the way out of where you have been, there is always, as you place it, Hope.
If we had a hope tag, I'd use it right away. Light in the dark, and all that jazz. Of course it would end up tragically misused just like every other tag, but what can you do?
Also a mystery tag, because seriously.
I do like the idea, but the "Hope" tag doesn't seem to work independently. What sort of story would be tagged Hope and not Dark?
2183331
And "science fiction." We could definitely use that.
2183347 I could think of a few, where the setting itself is more so the place where the worst has so often won. Dark does not always imply a harsh story, especially with how open adventure can be.
Dark is more than you are willing to show and explore certain choices, with or without a light at the end of the tunnel.
Hope is giving a sight that somewhere, down no matter how far, that there is a way out. Spoilers, maybe, but well I do sorta see it oddly that way.
Now that you've made us all curious, any chance of a link to the story, or a mention of it?
I wish I could write like ya. You are skilled in writing, And you keep us reading. You are great!
And the tag seems like it would make FiM more interesting.
We must be very different people, then. I tend to prefer reading "dark" fics – sometimes even if it's "grimdark for the sake of grimdark", etc. – because it's so much more interesting to see how one can twist something as incredibly innocent and cute as MLP:FiM into something that is its polar opposite. Obviously, it's very easy to mess it up (and 90% of the attempts end up doing that), but those that do it right... holy crap, do those fics hit you hard...
One other reason might be because to me, writing a "standard" adventure fic – or whatever else that is more in the vein of the show – seems like a no-risk attempt with respect to one's audience. You're not leaping very far away from the source material if you don't try to add something that isn't in it already, and both "sad" and "dark" content are the least prominent, therefore the most popular candidates.
Yeah, just throwing in a truckload of blood, guts, and tears doesn't mean the story is instant gold for me either. But if I had to choose between a badly written grimdark fic and a badly written adventure fic, then I'd choose the former, if only because I enjoy how they tend to annoy people...
As for the "hope VS no hope" thing: if the "no hope" path kept me on the edge of my seat, let alone made me feel any kind of emotion at all, then I almost prefer it to "happy ending" stories. Happy endings don't have any morals, so to speak. We are relieved that "everything turned out okay in the end," and can move on with our lives, our awareness of our own reality not affected quite as much as it could (or perhaps should) have been. A downer ending, on the other hand, clings to us far more tightly. Sure, you can have plenty of low points throughout a tale, then end it on a high note, which might toy with the readers' feelings for a while, but a happy ending always kinda ruins that, since it doesn't remind you that not everyone gets to be a winner in life (e.g everypony in Fo:E who died when the bombs fell...)
Finally, the new tag idea... doesn't using that count as a spoiler?
I like the idea, though 2183331's "uplifting" flows better to me.
Also, though it doesn't seem so, Vimbert the Unimpressive's Twilight, Revised is basically that. No one sees the ending of that fic coming ;.;
Nice!
I want that tag, too. That underlies my whole theme with the Trixie's Magic Bit books. They'd be totally meaningless without conflict and stuff going wrong, and I'm continually having ponies reduced to the worst sort of despair, but the whole point is to both chart a path into that horribleness (convincingly) and then through and out of it again.
Sometimes it means learning hard lessons. Stuff isn't set in stone, it evolves, the characters are supposed to grow and what's right for them one book might not be right anymore. But it's fundamental that they come to an accomodation, they find hope or they're shown it and respond to it.
I think this is a great suggestion. I'd love to see this tag exist.
On fanfiction.net there's a tag where you have hurt/comfort. It's different from the angst tag over there in that it tells us there is comfort to the hurt. They get better, or if not better, they feel slightly better. Hope over here would make a pretty nice tag. Or, well, something along those lines.
I absolutely agree. Nothing ruins a fic so much as the ending turning to tears. I would love a [Hope] tag to go alongside [Dark].
Sort of a tangent, I guess, but I figured I'd reply because I'm one of those people who writes hurtfics almost exclusively (although there are some which have cautiously-optimistic conclusions).
I write horrible things happening to good ponies (or at least, those who did absolutely nothing to deserve it), and I conclude these occasions with downer endings. There's a simple reason for writing most of them: this is the crap that goes on in my head. Storing it on virtual paper at least gets it out for a while. Darkness diluted among a thousand viewers is darkness lessened, and it's simply easier to deal with myself this way.
As for why anyone actually reads this kind of stuff... I would guess that the old saying that "misery loves company" could apply. Perhaps such stories are seen as a signal fire among the many in this fandom - as in any other fandom - who are broken and think they are alone with their thoughts.
Wait, I think I just implied that the existence of these stories has a hopeful end in itself.
That... isn't where I meant to take this. And I didn't mean it to get this long.
But you get the idea, I think. I don't mean "Kkat, you should read these horrible, depressing hurtfics." What I mean is that they actually have some pretty good reasons for existing.
Edit: Also, I'm fine with a "hope" tag. Forgot to mention my opinion on that (because it totally matters...).
It is hard to label a story as 'Hopeful' unless it's right in there within the theme's context. I guess that could be said for all themes, though I think something comforting like that would be a nice thing to have. Adds more variety and better organization
Hope is a very good concept, especially if it involves a character having to strive through dire circumstances with the uncertainty of knowing if he/she will succeed.
Personally, I believe there should be a 'Cute' tag on fimfiction for the stories that include the obviously inevitable heart attacks, hnnngs, and d'aws caused from "Cuteness Overload".
2183588
Also, perhaps "dark" stories are like an experiment: we are curious about how the characters we know would react in an environment completely unlike – not to mention far more bleak – than what we see in the show. A good story in this category is the one where said characters react in the most realistic fashion (with respect to their personality), so we get to see a new side of them...
2183771
Taking completely ordinary characters and throwing them into extraordinary circumstances is one of the more interesting ways to write any genre, really.
Gah, no kidding. I can think of a number of stories on this site that I simply wish I had never read. Makes me ever so slightly curious if the story your friend just finished is one of them.
I'm very much in favor of a [Hope] tag to balance the [Tragedy] tag actually. I know EQD's tag system is a little different but [Dark] and [Grimdark] have one inherent flaw. There's often no way to tell how dark things will be before reading the story, and that can lead to painful situations when the story turns out far darker than you'd ever want to read.
Is the story [Dark] because there is some simulated violence, a few strategic pieces of vulgarity, and/or themes that would fit well into any primetime drama TV show? Or is it [Dark] like a splatterfest movie with an ending designed to kick your emotions until you curl into a ball, and then kick you some more for good measure?
2183803
Obviously, but "dark" is the one that is most frowned upon, and is thus the hardest to do in a way that it doesn't just piss everyone off. That's why, even if they're badly written, I consider them superior to others, since their authors have attempted a greater challenge. A lot less people have problems with a comedy story featuring "King Sombra in a sombrero" or whatever...
Then again, if that premise somehow results in a serious message at the end...
i liken grimdark to something being just about evil and harm..... and often enough it is executed poorly in some manner. not always, but far too often it just uses violence for violence......... considering all of the mane six are competent it is hard ot imagine them falling into such a situation easily.
personally...... i do not think nihilism works with mlp. there are quite literally active forces in their universe that fights against that factor. even in your story that is true. a very certain purple reptile survived the chaos and war, and thus he existed as a being seeking to heal the world. in a since that evil was held back by even slightly because someone, somewhere, was doing all he could to safeguard the world's last hope, and it ultimately lead to the world healing.
personally i rather dislike sotries that just go and waste time with a bad ending. i always think that overtly good endings are lazy, and bad endings are lazy. it does not take much to make an ending a bad ending, just make everyone lose, like whoever wrote that story did. same with good ending, make everyone win.
but if you pull your ending between good and bad and you get the bittersweet. so much was lost yet the day was saved and there is Hope..........
actually no i think having the Sad tag is mislabeling the story if it ends THAT way. that is not sad, that is Tragedy. i think people mix it up. Tragedy is a story that is not going to end happily. sad is simply a story that has elements of sadness, like the death of someone, or simply suffering.
yeah they need to revamp the tags.
Hope is probably the reason that I can enjoy sad/grimdark stories so much (given that the story in question has bits of hope in it and isn't just a cryfest.) It is so satisfying to see the main character suffer and go through hardship only to rise above, either through their own inner strength, or most often through the help of their friends. The fact is that all the character has left is that thread of companionship, but it's also all they need. I love stories like that. It feels like such a payoff when this sort of triumph occurs, which is the chief reason I love stories like Fallout: Equestria, Murky Number Seven, and so on.
And, for the record, even if a story is nothing but black-pits-of-Tartarus grimdark, it can still be enjoyable if well written.
It certainly couldn't hurt to add such a tag, Hope is something a lot of others could use these days, especially when the world to them seems dark and cold.
Y'know, a lack of hope and a depressing setting is kind of what almost stopped me from reading FOE in the first place. I mean, really "A post-apoclyptic world of Equestria?" I mean to me, that was just a recipie for depressing and sadness. Heck, unless the goal was to stop the bad future from happening, I usually shy away from post-apocoyptic movies all together. The only reason why I started listening to it was because I figured "Well, it has an audio-book now, I don't have to read it, might as well see what the fuss is about."
As I read it, though, I realized that the story wasn't about the end of hope, if anything it was all about finding hope again. To be hit with the worst that the world has to offer, fight it back, and come out better than ever. One quote from Little Pip that I love, that is something that always what I associate with her when I need to get in her mind, "I'll fight back the darkness, I don't care if it leaves me beaten and dying on the cold rocks. I'll lift my body up with my magic and throw my body into the Darkness's mouth and make it choke on me." And in the end, she does. Yeah, it isn't perfect, but we see the ground work for a brand new tomorrow within. She gets so much thrown at her, but at no point did she ever think "I should quit, I should give up this quest." No, she continued on, and that is who she is.
I find myself reading to the end of the story of anything with the word grimdark, and try to see if it ends happily anymore. That is what I prefer to see when I read. That is why I love FOE so much
2183338
I'd guessed that it might've been this one. It is both one of my favourite stories on here, and one that I would never want to read again. Beautifully written, and yet tragic throughout.
2184316 it was one of my first red stories here, within the first 10, anyhow, and almost destroyed both the love of stories with those tags, let alone long stories as well. Its still a go I view as to what you shouldn't do with a long story, and those tags. It's a horrible copout in my eyes, and for a fan of the show and world, just insulting to the reader at the end.
2184330
Really? It was well written, had an intriguing plot and storyline, and I felt it was a good read. Granted it has been a while since I read it, but I felt like the end threw a bit of a curve ball, and that sometimes that is necessary and works. Why should the protagonist always win in the end?
PS. after looking at the tags, Random and Slice of Life shouldn't really be up there. I've always considered the latter of those to be more of a neutral, often short, story.
2184397 Dont get me wrong there, alot of it was. But that ending just up and ruined both the author and that story's previous virtues for me. The author can write well, but if you cannot close the deal in a good way, or you end it like that, what good is having read that, save that you've wasted your time of reading it? (from my pov. so some dissonance is very possible.)
edit add: Not at all for a hero to win, so many hero's, especially in a story where others are capable of dying suddenly. sometimes, the best one can hope for is a pyrrhic victory. And many other stories, the heroes death is almost a given. I am used to that, but one thing that has always rung strongly to me, what makes a hero, is their ability to choose. and in the end, lyra did not choose, the author did. (If that makes sense.)
A "hope" tag would be very, very useful. The last story I did, I didn't feel I had enough tags for it. Yes, it's sad, and yes, it's clop, and yes it's romantic, but it's more specifically a story about Discord feeling like crap for what he did in the finale and Fluttershy trying to comfort him. Trying to give him back some hope. FF.net offered the hurt/comfort tag, which I utilized for it, but I think I only used those first three here because that's all that was offered.
As for grimdark, I'm personally one that's attracted to it, but I do agree with you that grimdark is best used when its in service to a story. A series of shock scenes doesn't interest me. Giving me a story that happens to have horrific or violent elements is what I need. There's a reason I point to things like Cheerilee's Garden, FOE, and Rainbow Factory, for examples of goof grimdarks. These are actual, complete stories that offer more than just brutality for its own sake. FOE uses grimdark as a backdrop for a story about hope, like you said. Cheerilee's Garden is a story that's absolutely brutal, and has maybe the bleakest ending of any story ever (the end of Scarlet Harvest part 2. Those final scenes. Talk about depressing...) but is largely, at least initially, a story about a character going insane, and exploring her deterioration and forcing us to understand the mind of darkness. There's a twisted logic to it that makes perfect sense when you look at things from a certain perspective, even though you know it's insane logic. Rainbow Factory is about the mystery and about the questions its world raises about itself. That's how grimdark should be written.
Instead, all too often, we get crap like Rarity's Generous Plan and Sweet Apple Massacre.
Ohhh, I like the idea of a hope tag. I honestly tend to agree, I dislike sad stories myself. Sad stories that end just being sad for the sake of being sad end up disappointing me, especially if they can get me invested. However, stories that use sad, just to drive things down, make everything worse so it can finally get better tend to be my favorite. I honestly figured this blog post was something about this, namely because I once had this same talk with a friend of mine, and his response was more or less 'The darker it is, the brighter the candle glows.' The darker the story gets, the better it feels when everything turns out okay, or at least better than it was initially.
Is it OK to ask what is that story you talked at the beginning of this blog?
2184397 We need the random and slice of life tags because every story has to have at least one tag. And sometimes SoL or Random is all things fall into.
Alright, time to go petition knighty for the Hope tag. It being you and all, there is actually a pretty good chance the hope tag gets added.
2184444 I don't think knighty will listen to anyone. Even if whole site asked him for something, he can ignore it.
I like the idea of a Hope tag, it would fit so many stories. Especially Murky Number Seven
The story mentioned at the beginning sounds pretty familiar.
I'll avoid using the title (in case anyone is currently reading it), but I think it may be one of the books seen in the
backgroundof the Brony Bookclub video.Wow I suck at being subtle...
2184407
Spoilers for Background Pony Ensue. You've been warned.
Background Pony was about self-sacrifice. Lyra is a tragic hero in the most classic and Shakespearean sense, and with her sacrifice (allowing herself to be consumed by the curse), she saves the rest of the world from Discord and allows all the good she's done for the ponies of Ponyville to continue on. Her sacrifice is tragic, yes, but also incredibly brave and heroic. Lyra may die without the knowledge of her victory, but it is the place of the reader to remember what she did, to remember her sacrifice. You are right, for some people the apparent sadness of Lyra's sacrifice was too overwhelming, but for me it was beautifully tragic, a choice of others before self.
2184686 I've heard that before, but the artist failed to deliver that. Tragic what happened yes. A hero yes. A tragic hero, up until the end, yes. In that I fully agree, but it comes down to a choice, and it is not her making the choice. That ending is not an ending, its not pyrrhic, its not self sacrifice. Its an author going with the twin gun salute to the reader at the kindest.
Look at "eternal" the story, not user. That is sad, that is tragic, and suffering to reach an end. The cost is astronomical, and the heroine bleeds, in literal and metaphorical means to try. Heck, even fallout delivers a tragic hero of self sacrifice better than anything in background pony remotely did.
The only thing you can remotely draw from background pony is that status quo is god. Nothing happens, nothing changes, save you wasting your time in reading. Can you point out anything lyra did as changing the world, anything she did that made things better or worse? If a story can't deliver even the basic of change, then there is no sacrifice. Nothing tragic, except you got suckered into reading it.
Nothing changed, nothing happened, look to the greek heroes and heroines, look at what they lost, what they attempted, and they changed the world, albeit in cost to them, and those near them. Lyra did not. She suffered yes. She lost herself, but she did not change anything, so she is just little more than a statistic at best, and no heroine in any call of the word. And thats being generous.
I second the motion to add a Hope tag. That would be a really useful tag. That way, people can differentiate between stories you mentioned that are dark just to be dark and stories like Fo:E.
I wholeheartedly agree with, well, pretty much everything you've said.
It's similarly to how I look at clop/sex in a story. Clop/sex for the sake of clop/sex is, in my opinion, boring and even tasteless. But, if there is romance and actual love behind it, then clop/sex can become a tool to help and reinforce the romance of the story -- much like grimdark/sad is to adventure stories.
I think that having a "Hope" tag would be a great idea! To have a specific tag to advertise stories of overcoming immense adversity would really help to give a more specific idea of a story's content as well as the overall thematic direction. I would definitely use it for my FO:E side-story when I get around to posting it. This should be brought to the attention of FimFic's mods and admins for consideration.
I do not know if there is a proper trope or term for this, but I imagine a multi-axis graph for the "mood" of a story. On one axis you have "light/fluffy/cute/cuddly" on one end and "dark/violent/ugly" on the opposite end. The other axis has "grim/pessimistic/evil prevails" on one end and "cheerful/optimistic/'good guys [eventually] win, even in the 80s'" on the other end.
Agree 100%. It is that fact that it is, in the end, ABOUT hope that makes FOE so damn amazing. And you are right that to truly, TRULY shine, the light needs darkness to contrast itself to. But there needs to be that light. Darkness Induced Audience Apathy is pretty much my most hated trope. The one that any story that comes close to that level is something I would never even think of touching. Why? Why go through all that, go through a story, simply for it to try and make you feel like crap?
Though do disagree, HARD, about FOE being at all grimdark. Grimdark isn't simply really bad. It is utterly hopeless, it is dark for the sake of dark with no attempts to make it anything but as dark as possible. The uter anti-thesis of FOE. And does kind of bug me when people use Grimdark, simply to mean really Dark. rather then what it really means.
But on the subject of hope, yes it needs to be a tag.
Really, the best quote I can think of to sum up this whole thing comes from SF Debris. The original quote was him talking about Madoka, but it fits so well for FOE as well if paraphrased slightly.
Darkness can be used to great effect, and FOE does it so well. But there has to be that point to it. Something besides simply being dark for the sake of it. But finding that balance is really hard. No the hero doesn't always need to win, but their journey needs to have a point. Bittersweet endings can be some of the most powerful, hardest hitting and just plain moving types of endings. But there has to be enough sweet in there to make the journey worth it.
Another great example, Don Bluth movies. At least the 80's ones. They were dark, really dark and damn terrifying at times, especially for kids. And yet, they are almost all well loved classics. because it all worked out. He had a philosophy that kids could take a lot more fear and darkness in a story then adults gave them credit for, as long as things worked out in the end. And he proved that to be true.
Darkness can be used to great effect, and can create some of the greatest, most powerful stories possible. but it needs to be used right, it needs to have some light contrasting it. USed as the background, used as something to enhance the light, not snuff it out. And one last quote that proves that, the single greatest summation of all these points, in one of the greatest stories ever, A few simple lines that perfectly make clear everything you said, and just how true it is.
While I do love some grimdark and horror where everyone dies, I do hate a story tries to make you root for the main characters and hope that they make through only for everything to end terribly. Mainly because a lot of endings like that come out of nowhere.
You've just about summed up what I love the most about your story: the hope. I love stories in which there seems to be an impossible situation but there's still that little bit of hope. It's why I things like Fallout in general, Attack on Titan, and Mass Effect 3. That idea that things seem hopeless, but there's that little bit of hope that our little group of ragtag heroes will make everything right again.
I think Samwise from Lord of the Rings put it best.
That's what I love in a story.
I was honestly hesitant to start Fallout: Equestria because of hesitation around the "Grimdark" tag.
As you put it, I strongly dislike grimdark for the sake of grimdark and I don't want to read a story intended only to leave me sad and disgusted.
Ultimately I read it under recommendation from another and a satisfied hope that the adventure elements would take focus over the grimdark.
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I would like to see a Hope tag, though it would likely accompany Dark and Grimdark most of the time.
2183331
I'll second this.
2183406
Uplifting and hope aren't always the same thing.
Fallout: Equestria has both uplifting and depressing moments, so I'd say Hope would be a more accurate tag for such stories.
Uplifting, to me, would mostly indicate stories with milder drama to compensate happy themes.
I would also want to use Hope Tag... But then again...
What happens if the character shown has a strange twist... We all know Red Eye and his dealings...
What if the main character, a noble soul, terrified of all the killing, finally broke and would become an uncompromising anti-hero who would not back away from dealing evil in order for people to be protected?
Sometimes it reminds me of an example. A Freedom fighter who fought for independence, but the sort of independent government which came after he won, wasn't what he fought for. An another regime...
Soooo... Is it hope, if the said character does evil in good intentions? When the character understands that what he does is bad, but goes along with it anyways, becouse he doesn't see other solutions?
I'm going out on a limb and assuming that your friend just finished Background Pony. Lovely story, but I definitely think it needs a Tragedy tag.
I'm not so sure about a Hope tag. Isn't that what we're supposed to assume all stories are like, unless they're tagged Tragedy? I think the problem is more about incorrectly tagging Sad and Tragedy than the need for such a tag. At any rate, I think it'd be a nice addition.
Edit: Then again, I don't think Cupcakes is particularly tragic, so it wouldn't merit the tag, making it indistinguishable from stories that do have a sense of hope. So I guess a Hope tag would be a lot more useful than I thought.
2185015
Why, hello America.
Much as I'd like another tag to clearly split "dark" stories from "grimdark" ones, it'd be nice to have some tag (Perhaps "bittersweet"; I really like "hope", but it may be a touch vague) to differentiate between stories that are sad all the way through versus those that have at least some light at the end of the tunnel.
My longest-running story has both the "dark" and "sad" tags, and I was really uneasy when adding them. It absolutely needed them (While things are looking up at the end, there are lots of sad moments throughout it, and the main character does some outright horrible things that he didn't consider as horrible at the time), but I knew it was going to make people expect something else. Sad-dark stories seem to be messes of angst and hatred, turning Equestria into some horrible crapsack world full of bigotry, violence, and nastiness for the sake of nastiness, and characters who are relentlessly beaten down, suffering purely for the enjoyment of the reader; they're the realm of those who think "darker and grittier" makes things inherently better just by the nature of their tone, rather than that tone being a result of a writer looking more deeply at something and considering causes and effects more thoroughly.
Blogs like this are the reason I followed you. Well, aside from Fo:E.
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Ah, and the way I'm looking at it is: though maybe sucky stuff happens here, perhaps a ton of sucky stuff, the end viewpoint of the story is optimistic. Fallout: Equestria, at the end of the day, is a positive story, and as such, is Uplifting. I mean it the same way "Hope" would be meant, I just think that the word "Uplifting" fits better into the pre-existing tags. Idk. Just personal preference.