Star Swirl the Bearded is freed from over 1,000 years spent in Limbo, but a dark presence is released with him. So he decides to be a complete jerk about the whole thing.
Twi's got a lov~a~ly bunch of newspapers (di-dil-li-dee-dee) There they are, whapping a Jerk-ass. (Bum, bum, bum.) Big ones, small ones, some as big as your head, 'Give em a swish, a crack on the wrist,' That's what Sunset said.
Applejack took a step forward. “As much as I don’t like the old coot either, don’t we kinda need him to banish anything? Ah thought we had to pair up and all that…”
Ah _____________
We found Starswirl's Fatal Flaw. Friendship causes him to spontaneously combust. Lol, if only XD.
Pinkie snickered. “Jury’s still out on that one…” “HEY!” Starlight protested. “Mind controooool~”Pinkie sang with a smile on her face.”
So what? Twilight mind controlled most of ponyville into beating the crap out of each other over a doll and she never got any flack for that. She didn't even apologize for it.
If there was a hint that Twilight regretted her outburst, she didn’t outwardly show it. Instead, her eyes were still full of fire. An angry, raging fire that she directed at Star Swirl, even as her chest heaved up and down with heavy breaths.
Celestia vaporized him when he wasn't looking. (Yay Sunmom!) Or... he's undergoing apotheosis like Twilight did when she exploded and ascended into alicornhood. Which would be terrible.
8919424 Twilight ended up mind-controlling a whole town by mistake while under extreme stress to the point where she was driven quite mad.
Starlight deliberately threw them in a propaganda hut while she was evil, combined spells to make them more suggestible so she could get her friendship homework done after she had been reformed, and even after that still used a spell to compel Big Mac to speak when she was trying to make a friend.
That is a pattern that is worth calling someone out for. Yeah, she's making an effort to be better, but she really does like mind-control. It makes things easier for her.
8919606 Yes, mind control is bad. That wasn't my point.
Twilight mind controlled a town into rioting and turned Fluttershy into a vampire mind controlling Fruit bats. She's still a contributing member of society.
Starlight mind controlled Twilight's friends to do all her lessons at one and cast a spell so Big Mac couldn't stop talking. She can still be a contributing member of society.
I miss Starswirl's line into my quote but this is what I was getting at.
8919720 There was no way for Twilight to know her spell would backfire on Fluttershy, and as said before by others, she was not in her right mind at all for the Want it Need it spell.
Intent is everything, Starlight knew exactly what she was doing on both direct mind control occasions, not to mention the mind games she played on the ponies of Our Town and did it anyway because she didn't care how the others would feel about it, and did it anyway.
8919720 She can with time, but whereas a functioning member of society can recognize they've done the wrong thing, Starlight still has to be told. She's learning morals.
“Then you understand the words I’m speaking to you right now!”
“… Yes!”
“Then useyour wordsto apologize to my friends and I!”
“… What?”
Twilight’s horn suddenly blazed with magenta energy, her own horn seemingly humming with killing intent. “Say ‘What’ again! Come on! Say ‘What’ again! I dare you, I double dare you motherbucker,say ‘What’ one more Celestia damned time!”
Does Twilight have a Bad Mother Bucker bit purse?
☀
As for the rest of this story:
My god!!!! I don’t think I have ever laughed this hard before in my life. I almost passed out from how much I was laughing.
8919738 8919759 I was never arguing which was morally better! I was Talking about Pinkie's taunting!
Twiliight and Starlight both used mind control, It was a mistake, they regretted it, and wanted to make up for it and move passed it. And they did. But as soon as someone says Starlight is capable of becoming a better pony Pinkie pretty much tells her she's a failure that could never improve herself.
I used Twilight as an example because she used mind control and her friends didn't ridicule her for it afterwords. NOT TO COMPARE WHICH WAS OKAY OR NOT!
Twilight and the rest of the mane 6 were allowed to better themselves from their mistakes, why is Starlight not allowed to do the same?
The only apotheosis I foresee for Starswirl is a shave and a mane-cut. Or a long overdue chat with the Royal Sisters that ends with a new side to the cookie debate.
I'm more likely to forgive a friend who gets excited telling a story and accidentally cracks me upside the head and immediately feels bad; because of course they do - than I am to forgive a friend who arbitrarily decides to punch me in the face because they felt it was easier than explaining themselves at that moment... and then needs to have it explained to them why it's a bad thing to do in the first place. One's an accident, the other is assault.
I'm not saying that Starlight doesn't deserve redemption, I'm saying that occasional quips are kind of warranted. Sunset put up with more for longer. Starlight has been insta-forgiven each time she's goofed. It's mostly only fanfic authors who call her on her crap.
“I had to remind Starlight she could levitate, and I’m pretty sure both you purple ponies here have teleported into the bathroom, at least once, just because you didn’t feel like getting up!”
“Can confirm!” Spike shouted.
Hmm, how did they do their business in the bathroom without getting up? And how exactly can Spike confirm?
I don’t know about the first part, but the second might be because Spike was in the bathroom (either taking a shower or something) when they teleported in.
8920293 Intent doesn't seem to work well here per se: even in her cult leader days she has thrown mane 6 into propaganda hut because she probably deluded herself into thinking that it would benefit them and her village long-term. Big Mac accident? She probably tried to "fix his problem" and expected to impress him and Applejack with it (really not sure here --- it's a short fragment; I'm drawing analogy from previous piece where she tried to impress Mrs Cake with, well, cake). Mind control stuff? Her intent was "not getting kicked out from her princess apprentice position" (like Twilight's in "Lesson Zero") and, maybe, "perform that seemingly random piece of labour more efficiently". That's kinda general problem of "intent": humans have direct intent of harming another human much rarer than it seems (revenge is probably only common example). And for your punch-in-the-face example more accurate analogue would be for friend to thing that punch would benefit you.
8920468 You mean Starlight's exact intentions in those examples or general usefulness of bare intent in ethics? Former one is completely understandable: show doesn't characterize her really well there and I wouldn't put all my money on those derivations either. I'm curious what do you thing about latter one, though.
As I said, I fundamentally disagree with all of it, but I see where you are coming from in your argument.
To sum it up; "We judge ourselves by our intentions and others by their behaviour." Stephen M.R Covey.
Starlight's motives in those references were entirely personal gratification based on her words and actions. She cast the spell on Big Mac because "That's too bad, [she] loves a good conversation." and then promptly made it so he was incapable of filtering brain-to-mouth function - a personal hell for our favourite red stallion. She didn't think she was fixing anything for Big Mac's benefit, only her own. Similar with the Mane 5; she didn't think that Twilight would kick her out if she didn't do any of them, she was being lazy and tried to do them all at once; then when that backfired, she brainwashed the lot of them to make it easier on herself because the free will of anyone who isn't her is overrated. So, the intent was self-serving, and not in any way accidental.
Intent in ethics is monumental in trying to parse why other people would do what they do. It is fundamentally easier to forgive something that was done by accident or ignorance than it is to forgive someone who knew an action was wrong or damaging to another, and chooses to do it anyway. Think of it like a new friend who carelessly calls you a name you don't like, vs. a bully who knows damn well.
I want to believe that Starlight didn't see any fault in her actions at the time of making them. She simply doesn't function that way; so one can forgive her for a lot of it. It doesn't make it easy to do so, because she is very self-serving; to the point of often not caring about the lives and welfare of those around her.
She is learning social niceties, and that makes her engaging, but it can still make her quite alien and unforgivable to many who have dealt with sociopathy in their own lives.
If there was a hint that Twilight regretted her outburst, she didn’t outwardly show it. Instead, her eyes were still full of fire. An angry, raging fire that she directed at Star Swirl, even as her chest heaved up and down with heavy breaths.
Oh, she's actually lost it. Oh this is going to be wonderful.
“SERIOUSLY! JUST SHUT THE BUCK UP FOR A MINUTE! OR LIKE, IS YOUR NEXT SENTENCE ANOTHER INCOMPLETE SPELL OF YOURS I NEED TO FINISHFORYOU?!”
“Oh, it’s fine,”The Pony of Shadows said.“Watching Star Swirl get dressed down by amareis the best thing I’ve ever seen.”He shook his head.“Out of curiosity, has any pony ever told you that you should figure out how to chill?”
At some point, probably.
“Come on! Drop it!Droooop it!”
He's like a dog that doesn't listen.
“Uh…”The Pony of Shadows tapped at his chest, finding it was quite solid to his shadowy touch.“Is… isthatwhat it’s like to be possessed? Wow, that’s unnerving…”
I would imagine, I mean, it's your body, with another soul in it.
“I’m pretty damn sure Twilight doesn’tneedyour help!” Sunset said. “As you said, ‘this is what she does’!” There was a sigh from Sunset Shimmer. “I swear, Starlight; I know you have relevant experience here, but not everything revolves around you, you know!”
I'm inclined to agree.
“WHAT!” Star Swirl exclaimed. “I didn’t agree to—”
Shut up, old man.
“See!” Twilight said motioning to the emptiness behind her. “Let’s just get out of here and you can come celebrate with everypony and talk out your problems like anormalpony instead of throwing a magical fit and threatening the world with extinction.”
“HEY! We HEARD that!” Starlight exclaimed.
GOOD!
“It’s FINE!” Twilight stressed as she fapped her wings, lifting off as she levitated Stygian to follow. “Don’t worry about it,” she added as a familiar heap of beard, bells, and pony flew into the shadows, screaming the entire time.
Good.
“NO, HEY! SHUT UP!”Twilight narrowed her eyes.“It’sTwilighttime!”
Yeah, you best listen to her.
“Oh, right, right!” Starlight said as a sudden realization seemed to come over her. “I’ve always had a bit of a blind spot with those...things…”
You do.
“I still like what he’s done for the field of magic and probablysomeof the times he’s saved pony kind,” Twilight countered. “Andno,I don’t like the way he’s acted or treated you guys or, me. The doesn’t mean he deserves to be banished toLimboorkilled!”
Eh... I'm sure Celestia would disagree.
Twilight let out a groan. “Look, this is a friendship problem, right? The answer can’t be 'just give up on Star Swirl! That’s basically the same solution you were all getting on Star Swirl’s case about!”
... Well shit.
The Pony of Shadows sighed heavily and hung his dark ethereal head. “I miss my music…” he muttered to himself.
There, there.
“What country are you from, Star Swirl?”
“… What?!”
‘Pow!”
"I’ve studied the globe and ‘What’ is not a country I’ve ever seen! Do they speak Equestrian in ‘What?’
Oh please tell me this is going where I think it is!
Twilight’s horn suddenly blazed with magenta energy, her own horn seemingly humming with killing intent. “Say ‘What’ again! Come on! Say ‘What’ again! I dare you, I double dare you motherbucker,say ‘What’ one more Celestia damned time!”
I need to see that movie some day.
Sunburst let out a distressed yelp as Star Swirl glanced up frightfully at the spot the bell hat he had been wearing had just occupied before Twilight disintegrated it.
May want to listen.
After a moment of careful consideration, Star Swirl replied with a simple “… Incinerate me.”
What?
“I said ‘incinerate me’! I would ratherdiethan apologize to that temper tantrum throwing harlot!”
View must be great from that glass house of yours.
“Wow! Rude!” The Pony of Shadows replied. “Just because I’m a creature created out of pure jealousy and sadness who craves the despair he causes other ponies, doesn’t mean I don’t have feelings.”
Eh...
Sunset’s eyes furrowed. “What’ssa matter? The mirrors you make portals to dump your problems out of stopreflectingwhen they’re done? Or maybe they just do that as a defense mechanism!”
Oh wow. Roll for Cutting Words.
Somnambula turned towards Twilight. “Twilight Sparkle, please hold your magic. There is no need to incinerate Star Swirl at this point…” She glanced at the bearded pony whose face was contorted in absolute rage and shame. “There is simply nothing left to burn.”
I disagree.
The Pillars collectively collected their jaws off the ground. Flash Magnus’s wing suddenly flew up in the air. “And I do believe that’s the end of the dual Sunset and Star Swirl started. Game set and match.” He looked about his peers. “All in favor of making Sunset Shimmer the new leader of the Pillars?”
Aye!
His face tightening, Spike raised a claw, palm facing upwards. “If you could have done that, wouldn’t you have done that already?”
He's right, you know.
Sunburst just stared at the Pony of Shadows in amazement, floating off his glasses momentarily to clean them with the end of his cape and placing them back on his muzzle as if he couldn’t believe what he was watching. “This… this is the saddest thing I have ever seen, and I once caught myself in the mirror after I forgot to shower or even leave my house after a couple weeks of binge reading.”
TMI.
“Oh, Starlight, relax!” Twilight said with a dismissive wave of a forehoof. “I’m not going to hurt you.”
Oh, that's a relief, I like Starlight.
“Of course not, silly!” Twilight said with a smile on her face. “I just need your help for a moment…” With that, Twilight leaned in close to Starlight and began whispering in her ear. Starlight’s eyes opened in surprise before her face relaxed and a wicked smile overtook the concern.
Oh boy.
Without warning, Twilight’s horn glazed with black energy that arched out like lightning above her. The bolts ended in a small disk-like hole that began to grow to accompanied by an ill, reverberating sound like fabric being torn inside an amplified echo chamber.
Oh...
“Alright, Element Bearers and Pillars!”Twilight called out.“Let him have it!”
Something needs to get blasted.
Smile on her face, Fluttershy spoke up, “Maybe because we didn’t banish anypony? Erm, except the Pony of Shadows that is, and that awful, awful goat… They totally got banished.”
To be fair, neither of them are very Good.
“Or, uh… He’s just a jerk…” Pinkie concluded.
Yeah. That.
Sunset raised an eyebrow. “… Would it be better if I just preemptively told you to take your apology and shove it shidewaysh up your dark back-hole?”
Star Swirl took a phlegmy inhale through his nose and got back to his hooves. “Yes… yes it would.”
I love this so much.
In a blinding white light, Star Swirl was suddenly gone, replaced by a small, smoldering crater.
... The fuck?
Sunset couldn’t help but smile to herself. “Uh-oh, SshpaghettiOs!”
she didn't think that Twilight would kick her out if she didn't do any of them, she was being lazy and tried to do them all at once
That seems wrong or at least incomplete: you would never predict from the premise "X is lazy" alone something like "X will attempt to do 5 times the work per same amount of time" instead of something like "X will pick the easiest task and will do it at the minimum passable level, if excuses not to do any work at all haven't helped" (example of really "lazy" behaviour from the show is Zephyr Breeze, although he probably deliberately targeted below passable level in the hope that Fluttershy would leave him be as is).
To sum it up; "We judge ourselves by our intentions and others by their behaviour." Stephen M.R Covey.
I'm a bit confused here: you've claimed before that there also intent apart from other's behaviour. It seems very likely that there should be something apart from behaviour: in the punching example above (below, actually ) one would judge very differently when being punched by robot or by fellow human, although behaviour is the same (yes, behaviourists may say something like that everything here is behaviour, but it kinda already killing the point of citation).
Intent in ethics is monumental in trying to parse why other people would do what they do.
Maybe I still misunderstand what you mean under "intent", but it doesn't seem to work particularly good in ethics. It doesn't condemn a nazi that really believes that he is improving the world with gas chambers. In the robot example if robot is deliberately programmed to punch people there is intuitively still difference from aggressive human (it seems to go beyond the fact that we don't want to harm human, but don't care about robot). Even psychopaths often don't have ill intentions, they simply don't care. Only bully looks like a good example.
8920826 Reading through these, it should fairly easy to sum up (though, I see I basically wrote paragraphs on this, so... oops), especially now that robots, psychopaths, and NAZIs have been used somewhat in defense of Starlight's actions. Starlight's view of right and wrong generally comes off as fundamentally different from her peers. Essentially, she seems to operate from the idea that the ends justify the means, and as of last season (To Change a Changeling) we still see her thought process operating in a manner that could get others hurt or worse despite whatever her ultimate intentions might be. It's a mindset that needs constant adjustment and shown that it's wrong, in the sense that Starlight's ideas and way of dealing with problems can and HAVE often get ponies hurt either physically or mentally and emotionally.
To bring this back to the fic in question, in an earlier chapter, Rainbow Dash did the whole "not so subtly remind the character they were once a villain" without much context past that, to which Starlight replied that Rainbow Dash had exploded a weather station, which does highlight that all ponies seem capable of committing "villainous acts". In THIS chapter, Star Swirl brought up the best compliment he could think of, which was despite the fact that Starlight was once a villain, she's seemingly integrated into pony society in a manner that makes her a "net positive" to the contribution of that society. Pinkie's dig is basically that Starlight still has a ways to go, or that she's still struggling with her nature or what Starlight accepts as right and wrong to do integrate completely. The main six, and perhaps EVERY pony aside from the ones we see all the time, can't seem to comport themselves in such a way that they don't occasionally cause some major problem or disaster, but they typically arrive at becoming the problem through a sort of slow unravel of their better selves where others have to step in, clean their mess, and correct them. What many viewers find worrisome about Starlight is she often becomes a problem after she methodically planned it as a solution to a different problem. Again, this means her general view needs correction if she's going to fit in with the rest of the ponies in such a way that doesn't get someone hurt or killed. Or, to speak to your previous example, Twilight has given little indication that she'd backslide and do something like the 'want it, need it' fiasco, Starlight hasn't got to the point where she's consistently behaving in a manner that others are satisfied she won't hit THEM with a spell to address an issue or, I don't know, make some sort of plan that involves changelings being attacked by a dangerous, wild animal for "the greater good".
This episode in the show was something of a turning point for her, though. She didn't use magic to solve her problems for one and she was able to "flip the script" on Twilight a bit, so maybe she's finally grown enough to the point she simply knows better. Though she's still got the better part of three seasons of misdeeds and near a apocalypse to account for. Luckily for her, the group she is with forigves easy, unfortunately for her, they don't seem to forget, ever.
In conclusion, Starlight hasn't quite proven that she's capable of considering the bigger picture of how her actions affect others under all but the most trying of circumstances, the later seemingly worth a "pass" in pony society as it just seems every pony has "off days". She can't really prove she's better through one specific act, but needs to behave in a manner that shows she's better. Suggesting that all Starlight's previous action, even a few post her 'reformation', are somethine one can rationalize without it being pointed out that Starlight's basic approach needs adjustment feels nihilistic at the very least.
The least I can do is have the cast (including Starlight herself, at times) bring up that she needs to get better.
now that robots, psychopaths, and NAZIs have been used somewhat in defense of Starlight's actions
That was a part of general discussion on ethics only tangentially related to Starlight. (yeah, the only thing that is missing here is a trolley problem)
Starlight's view of right and wrong generally comes off as fundamentally different from her peers.
That's really cool insight! And I would say more that she is different on meta-ethical level by being consequentialist in the world of virtue ethics. Or a wannabe consequentialist more likely: she is not very good in anticipating actual consequences, and the real causes of her actions are often her own psychological quirks (and she has like a hell lot of them) but she uses supposed consequences to rationalize them. Although, I personally find "if status quo that everyone accepts is unsatisfactory then buck this status quo into next week" approach kinda disturbingadmirable. The funny thing here is that, unlike in reality where thinking that you're safe from getting hurt as long as you're virtuous is a fallacy, in Equestria virtue ethics actually works, especially in villain-fighting episodes (to be fair, their virtues are not completely opaque black boxes, and inner workings of friendship, honesty, loyalty and stuff are shown a lot too).
This episode in the show was something of a turning point for her, though.
8921192 Yes, in regards to the episode. Also, I do think Starlight looking at problems from a different angle could be quite helpful, it would just be good of her to maybe run her ideas by someone who could at least vet the where morally sound (until she's consistently shown shes got these "moral things" on lockdown ). Spike or Twilight, probably. The mane five tend to have their own personal spins on things that are flawed in their own right. Oddly enough, Applejack is often the biggest perpetrator here as her thinking is a tad more rigid than the others.
I admit, I was waiting for Twilight to snap before picking this story back up. I can only take so much of the King of All Jerk-Asses fulfilling his title without proper retribution. Here's hoping he didn't actually ascend. Or, if he did, that literally everyone else atomizes him shortly thereafter.
8924494 It lacked all the hallmarks of an Alicorn rebirth actually.
In both instances where the EoH were close by (not other magical McGuffin), the EoH did to Sunset what it did to give ponies Super Sayjin Glam Rock forms to take out Tirek (visibly consumed them, then remade their matter out of friendship and death lazers).
Or by the same graphics used to one shot Discord (cutie mark rave lightning, just before Lazer raping), making a ball of eating like 1, but rather than remake, used to send off in style.
Dickface McGee didn't get any of that. And we clearly see the Princess of Magic, bookgasms, and Friends Fails. The Patron of Ubernerds, and OCD. Look right at Sunset Shimmer. And Sunset doing that warble she's been doing as a running gag all fic long.
And don't forget of the two big forshadows given in this story recently (hint they both deal with things Celestia and Luna have said before going to actually do something). ______ ______
My previous comment was meant as a joke / sarcastic burn on Starswirl.
“It’s FINE!” Twilight stressed as she fapped her wings, lifting off as she levitated Stygian to follow. “Don’t worry about it,” she added as a familiar heap of beard, bells, and pony flew into the shadows, screaming the entire time.
Twi's got a lov~a~ly bunch of newspapers
(di-dil-li-dee-dee)
There they are, whapping a Jerk-ass.
(Bum, bum, bum.)
Big ones, small ones, some as big as your head,
'Give em a swish, a crack on the wrist,'
That's what Sunset said.
Goddammit, Justice.
i think it was the other princess who did it.
Ah
_____________
We found Starswirl's Fatal Flaw. Friendship causes him to spontaneously combust. Lol, if only XD.
Ah, this was satisfying.
So what? Twilight mind controlled most of ponyville into beating the crap out of each other over a doll and she never got any flack for that. She didn't even apologize for it.
Excellent! I'm guessing next chapter is the end?
I definitely want to see a reunion with Sunset, Celestia and Luna.
Why does it feel like there's going to be another princess?
TWO POSSIBILITIES
Celestia vaporized him when he wasn't looking. (Yay Sunmom!)
Or... he's undergoing apotheosis like Twilight did when she exploded and ascended into alicornhood. Which would be terrible.
Nah, Sunset didn't kill him, he just finally ascended to become the alicorn of assholes.
Hmmmm. Star Swirl vanishing in a random explosion? Alicorn!Star Swirl time?
8919424
Twilight ended up mind-controlling a whole town by mistake while under extreme stress to the point where she was driven quite mad.
Starlight deliberately threw them in a propaganda hut while she was evil, combined spells to make them more suggestible so she could get her friendship homework done after she had been reformed, and even after that still used a spell to compel Big Mac to speak when she was trying to make a friend.
That is a pattern that is worth calling someone out for. Yeah, she's making an effort to be better, but she really does like mind-control. It makes things easier for her.
Starswirl becomes a (bearded) Alicorn mare, I guarantee it. And then Sunset berates her for all eternity. The end
8919606
Yes, mind control is bad. That wasn't my point.
Twilight mind controlled a town into rioting and turned Fluttershy into a vampire mind controlling Fruit bats. She's still a contributing member of society.
Starlight mind controlled Twilight's friends to do all her lessons at one and cast a spell so Big Mac couldn't stop talking. She can still be a contributing member of society.
I miss Starswirl's line into my quote but this is what I was getting at.
8919720
The point was intent. Twilight's examples were mostly accidental, while Starlight's were all deliberate.
8919720
There was no way for Twilight to know her spell would backfire on Fluttershy, and as said before by others, she was not in her right mind at all for the Want it Need it spell.
Intent is everything, Starlight knew exactly what she was doing on both direct mind control occasions, not to mention the mind games she played on the ponies of Our Town and did it anyway because she didn't care how the others would feel about it, and did it anyway.
8919522
Please be the former, please be the former...
8919720
She can with time, but whereas a functioning member of society can recognize they've done the wrong thing, Starlight still has to be told. She's learning morals.
Does Twilight have a Bad Mother Bucker bit purse?
☀
As for the rest of this story:
My god!!!! I don’t think I have ever laughed this hard before in my life. I almost passed out from how much I was laughing.
To borrow a quote from Rainbow Dash:
Best....Chapter....EVER!!!!
8919860
I dunno... Starswirl being turned into an alicorn princess? I cant really see a better punishment than that.
8919738
8919759
I was never arguing which was morally better! I was Talking about Pinkie's taunting!
Twiliight and Starlight both used mind control, It was a mistake, they regretted it, and wanted to make up for it and move passed it. And they did.
But as soon as someone says Starlight is capable of becoming a better pony Pinkie pretty much tells her she's a failure that could never improve herself.
I used Twilight as an example because she used mind control and her friends didn't ridicule her for it afterwords. NOT TO COMPARE WHICH WAS OKAY OR NOT!
Twilight and the rest of the mane 6 were allowed to better themselves from their mistakes, why is Starlight not allowed to do the same?
The only apotheosis I foresee for Starswirl is a shave and a mane-cut. Or a long overdue chat with the Royal Sisters that ends with a new side to the cookie debate.
8920054
Neither are we, we're arguing intent.
I'm more likely to forgive a friend who gets excited telling a story and accidentally cracks me upside the head and immediately feels bad; because of course they do - than I am to forgive a friend who arbitrarily decides to punch me in the face because they felt it was easier than explaining themselves at that moment... and then needs to have it explained to them why it's a bad thing to do in the first place. One's an accident, the other is assault.
I'm not saying that Starlight doesn't deserve redemption, I'm saying that occasional quips are kind of warranted. Sunset put up with more for longer. Starlight has been insta-forgiven each time she's goofed. It's mostly only fanfic authors who call her on her crap.
Hmm, how did they do their business in the bathroom without getting up? And how exactly can Spike confirm?
8920396
I don’t know about the first part, but the second might be because Spike was in the bathroom (either taking a shower or something) when they teleported in.
8920293
Intent doesn't seem to work well here per se: even in her cult leader days she has thrown mane 6 into propaganda hut because she probably deluded herself into thinking that it would benefit them and her village long-term. Big Mac accident? She probably tried to "fix his problem" and expected to impress him and Applejack with it (really not sure here --- it's a short fragment; I'm drawing analogy from previous piece where she tried to impress Mrs Cake with, well, cake). Mind control stuff? Her intent was "not getting kicked out from her princess apprentice position" (like Twilight's in "Lesson Zero") and, maybe, "perform that seemingly random piece of labour more efficiently".
That's kinda general problem of "intent": humans have direct intent of harming another human much rarer than it seems (revenge is probably only common example). And for your punch-in-the-face example more accurate analogue would be for friend to thing that punch would benefit you.
8920419
Yeah, you're probably right about Spike
8920461
I ... fundamentally disagree with you on all of that, but I see where you are trying to come from.
8920468
You mean Starlight's exact intentions in those examples or general usefulness of bare intent in ethics? Former one is completely understandable: show doesn't characterize her really well there and I wouldn't put all my money on those derivations either. I'm curious what do you thing about latter one, though.
8920498
Both, honestly.
As I said, I fundamentally disagree with all of it, but I see where you are coming from in your argument.
To sum it up; "We judge ourselves by our intentions and others by their behaviour." Stephen M.R Covey.
Starlight's motives in those references were entirely personal gratification based on her words and actions. She cast the spell on Big Mac because "That's too bad, [she] loves a good conversation." and then promptly made it so he was incapable of filtering brain-to-mouth function - a personal hell for our favourite red stallion. She didn't think she was fixing anything for Big Mac's benefit, only her own. Similar with the Mane 5; she didn't think that Twilight would kick her out if she didn't do any of them, she was being lazy and tried to do them all at once; then when that backfired, she brainwashed the lot of them to make it easier on herself because the free will of anyone who isn't her is overrated. So, the intent was self-serving, and not in any way accidental.
Intent in ethics is monumental in trying to parse why other people would do what they do. It is fundamentally easier to forgive something that was done by accident or ignorance than it is to forgive someone who knew an action was wrong or damaging to another, and chooses to do it anyway. Think of it like a new friend who carelessly calls you a name you don't like, vs. a bully who knows damn well.
I want to believe that Starlight didn't see any fault in her actions at the time of making them. She simply doesn't function that way; so one can forgive her for a lot of it. It doesn't make it easy to do so, because she is very self-serving; to the point of often not caring about the lives and welfare of those around her.
She is learning social niceties, and that makes her engaging, but it can still make her quite alien and unforgivable to many who have dealt with sociopathy in their own lives.
All hail Princess Starswirl the new princess of facial hair.
Oh, she's actually lost it. Oh this is going to be wonderful.
At some point, probably.
He's like a dog that doesn't listen.
I would imagine, I mean, it's your body, with another soul in it.
I'm inclined to agree.
Shut up, old man.
GOOD!
Good.
Yeah, you best listen to her.
You do.
Eh... I'm sure Celestia would disagree.
... Well shit.
There, there.
Oh please tell me this is going where I think it is!
GLORIOUS.
I need to see that movie some day.
May want to listen.
What?
View must be great from that glass house of yours.
Eh...
Oh wow. Roll for Cutting Words.
I disagree.
Aye!
He's right, you know.
TMI.
Oh, that's a relief, I like Starlight.
Oh boy.
Oh...
Something needs to get blasted.
To be fair, neither of them are very Good.
Yeah. That.
I love this so much.
... The fuck?
Goddammit Sunset.
8920001
I hope so.
And now I love Twilight again! Just the most perfect chapter and funny ending!
Truly great work!
8920524
That seems wrong or at least incomplete: you would never predict from the premise "X is lazy" alone something like "X will attempt to do 5 times the work per same amount of time" instead of something like "X will pick the easiest task and will do it at the minimum passable level, if excuses not to do any work at all haven't helped" (example of really "lazy" behaviour from the show is Zephyr Breeze, although he probably deliberately targeted below passable level in the hope that Fluttershy would leave him be as is).
I'm a bit confused here: you've claimed before that there also intent apart from other's behaviour. It seems very likely that there should be something apart from behaviour: in the punching example above (below, actually ) one would judge very differently when being punched by robot or by fellow human, although behaviour is the same (yes, behaviourists may say something like that everything here is behaviour, but it kinda already killing the point of citation).
Maybe I still misunderstand what you mean under "intent", but it doesn't seem to work particularly good in ethics. It doesn't condemn a nazi that really believes that he is improving the world with gas chambers. In the robot example if robot is deliberately programmed to punch people there is intuitively still difference from aggressive human (it seems to go beyond the fact that we don't want to harm human, but don't care about robot). Even psychopaths often don't have ill intentions, they simply don't care. Only bully looks like a good example.
8920826
Reading through these, it should fairly easy to sum up (though, I see I basically wrote paragraphs on this, so... oops), especially now that robots, psychopaths, and NAZIs have been used somewhat in defense of Starlight's actions. Starlight's view of right and wrong generally comes off as fundamentally different from her peers. Essentially, she seems to operate from the idea that the ends justify the means, and as of last season (To Change a Changeling) we still see her thought process operating in a manner that could get others hurt or worse despite whatever her ultimate intentions might be. It's a mindset that needs constant adjustment and shown that it's wrong, in the sense that Starlight's ideas and way of dealing with problems can and HAVE often get ponies hurt either physically or mentally and emotionally.
To bring this back to the fic in question, in an earlier chapter, Rainbow Dash did the whole "not so subtly remind the character they were once a villain" without much context past that, to which Starlight replied that Rainbow Dash had exploded a weather station, which does highlight that all ponies seem capable of committing "villainous acts". In THIS chapter, Star Swirl brought up the best compliment he could think of, which was despite the fact that Starlight was once a villain, she's seemingly integrated into pony society in a manner that makes her a "net positive" to the contribution of that society. Pinkie's dig is basically that Starlight still has a ways to go, or that she's still struggling with her nature or what Starlight accepts as right and wrong to do integrate completely. The main six, and perhaps EVERY pony aside from the ones we see all the time, can't seem to comport themselves in such a way that they don't occasionally cause some major problem or disaster, but they typically arrive at becoming the problem through a sort of slow unravel of their better selves where others have to step in, clean their mess, and correct them. What many viewers find worrisome about Starlight is she often becomes a problem after she methodically planned it as a solution to a different problem. Again, this means her general view needs correction if she's going to fit in with the rest of the ponies in such a way that doesn't get someone hurt or killed. Or, to speak to your previous example, Twilight has given little indication that she'd backslide and do something like the 'want it, need it' fiasco, Starlight hasn't got to the point where she's consistently behaving in a manner that others are satisfied she won't hit THEM with a spell to address an issue or, I don't know, make some sort of plan that involves changelings being attacked by a dangerous, wild animal for "the greater good".
This episode in the show was something of a turning point for her, though. She didn't use magic to solve her problems for one and she was able to "flip the script" on Twilight a bit, so maybe she's finally grown enough to the point she simply knows better. Though she's still got the better part of three seasons of misdeeds and near a apocalypse to account for. Luckily for her, the group she is with forigves easy, unfortunately for her, they don't seem to forget, ever.
In conclusion, Starlight hasn't quite proven that she's capable of considering the bigger picture of how her actions affect others under all but the most trying of circumstances, the later seemingly worth a "pass" in pony society as it just seems every pony has "off days". She can't really prove she's better through one specific act, but needs to behave in a manner that shows she's better. Suggesting that all Starlight's previous action, even a few post her 'reformation', are somethine one can rationalize without it being pointed out that Starlight's basic approach needs adjustment feels nihilistic at the very least.
The least I can do is have the cast (including Starlight herself, at times) bring up that she needs to get better.
8920981
That was a part of general discussion on ethics only tangentially related to Starlight.
(yeah, the only thing that is missing here is a trolley problem)
That's really cool insight! And I would say more that she is different on meta-ethical level by being consequentialist in the world of virtue ethics. Or a wannabe consequentialist more likely: she is not very good in anticipating actual consequences, and the real causes of her actions are often her own psychological quirks (and she has like a hell lot of them) but she uses supposed consequences to rationalize them. Although, I personally find "if status quo that everyone accepts is unsatisfactory then buck this status quo into next week" approach kinda
disturbingadmirable. The funny thing here is that, unlike in reality where thinking that you're safe from getting hurt as long as you're virtuous is a fallacy, in Equestria virtue ethics actually works, especially in villain-fighting episodes (to be fair, their virtues are not completely opaque black boxes, and inner workings of friendship, honesty, loyalty and stuff are shown a lot too).You mean "Shadow Play" here?
HA!!!!!
8921192
Yes, in regards to the episode. Also, I do think Starlight looking at problems from a different angle could be quite helpful, it would just be good of her to maybe run her ideas by someone who could at least vet the where morally sound (until she's consistently shown shes got these "moral things" on lockdown ). Spike or Twilight, probably. The mane five tend to have their own personal spins on things that are flawed in their own right. Oddly enough, Applejack is often the biggest perpetrator here as her thinking is a tad more rigid than the others.
Oh my sweet gracious joy this ending was AMAZING! Totally loved it and more in this same vain would be delightful!
I admit, I was waiting for Twilight to snap before picking this story back up. I can only take so much of the King of All Jerk-Asses fulfilling his title without proper retribution. Here's hoping he didn't actually ascend. Or, if he did, that literally everyone else atomizes him shortly thereafter.
8919401
As much as i’d love the idea, I doubt it. That looked like an alicorn rebirth.
8924494
It lacked all the hallmarks of an Alicorn rebirth actually.
In both instances where the EoH were close by (not other magical McGuffin), the EoH did to Sunset what it did to give ponies Super Sayjin Glam Rock forms to take out Tirek (visibly consumed them, then remade their matter out of friendship and death lazers).
Or by the same graphics used to one shot Discord (cutie mark rave lightning, just before Lazer raping), making a ball of eating like 1, but rather than remake, used to send off in style.
Dickface McGee didn't get any of that. And we clearly see the Princess of Magic, bookgasms, and Friends Fails. The Patron of Ubernerds, and OCD. Look right at Sunset Shimmer. And Sunset doing that warble she's been doing as a running gag all fic long.
And don't forget of the two big forshadows given in this story recently (hint they both deal with things Celestia and Luna have said before going to actually do something).
______
______
My previous comment was meant as a joke / sarcastic burn on Starswirl.
I fucking pissed myself laughing at that. I'm pretty sure you took that from Red Vs Blue.
8926418
It's been so long, but I PROBABLY got it from Simpsons originally.
Honestly, I knew I was referencing something besides the original commercials and had to look it up after I thought up the bit.
OH MY TWILIGHT
Arrows have been loosed also works