Horses, Hatred, and the Need for Us to Fucking Talk · 5:54pm Jul 17th, 2020
No sarcasm this time, folks. This one's raw and uncut.
Once upon a time, I used to be a political centrist. Seriously, it's true. You can even find old blogs where I name myself as such, in spite of, y'know, having little to no actual beliefs that were anything less than libleft AF. But of course, I wasn't a centrist because of my actual beliefs--I was a centrist because of my principles. I was a centrist because I believed that compromise was the glue that held a functional modern society together, and that only by working together and allowing every side of a discussion to have their say in good faith could we live up to the ideals espoused by the forefathers of America and of what I understood democracy to be.
Fast-forward to 2020, though, and... well, suffice it to say I'm on a slightly different train of thought. Specifically, the "BLM/ACAB/eat the rich and rob the landlords (ETRARTL?)" train that, by all accounts, is gaining steam both personally and out there in meatspace every day.
So, what the hell happened between then and now? Well, personally speaking, a lot of things: I broke off an emotionally manipulative relationship about three years later than I should have, almost literally killed myself over it a few weeks before graduating college, spent the next eighteen months getting fired from a couple jobs and scrabbling for others that didn't even pay enough to cover rent, finally got a steady gig in DC that almost didn't fill me with existential dread every day, eventually worked up the courage to uproot everything so I could move to Los Angeles and pursue a screenwriting dream, and then had to put all that on hold because of the ongoing viral apocalypse/slow-burn collapse of civilization. I've changed a lot and I've grown a lot, and in numerous respects I'm a very different person now than I was in 2014.
But I wasn't the only one who changed in the last six years--or more accurately, I wasn't the only one whose true colors came out. In the past six years, America has gone through the final stages of a forty-year effort to pull U.S. politics definitively and catastrophically rightward, culminating with the election of a racist, selfish, and demonstrably stupid game-show host to the highest executive office in the land. Since then, we've devolved further and further into an aggressive, idiotic, and fundamentally broken caricature of the image we carried of ourselves, defined by near-daily acts of needless and unspeakable cruelty masquerading as petty soap-opera squabbles. As a culture and as a nation, America in 2020 is a thoroughly boiled frog--and now, thanks in no small part to the aforementioned viral apocalypse and our utter failure to handle any aspect of it, the pot's boiling over.
But what does that have to do with this fandom? Everything, as a matter of fact, because the same trends that have overtaken America at large have been happening in our little in-group at more or less the same pace. It started with little things--a less-than-tasteful joke here, a tongue-in-cheek pony OC there--and then slowly, continually, almost imperceptibly escalated. The 4chan side of the fandom became more and more insulated, posters with far-right political views became more prolific, and more and more people with less fringe views began to realize that something was terribly, deeply wrong.
But it wasn't until the normies noticed--until there was a whole article in The Atlantic about how the brony fandom, of all things, was somehow full of Nazis--that things really kicked off. Or was it? Because here's the thing: The Atlantic story wasn't fictional. They weren't making up posts or manufacturing swastikas out of thin air--those posts are images are real. They're all over the goddamn place. And now that Derpibooru is banning Nazi iconography not banning Nazi iconography nobody knows what the fuck DB is doing, least of all DB fanning the flames of conflict and forcing the issue directly into the spotlight, everyone wants to pretend this is just liberal panic and cancel culture and a collection of other right-wing buzzwords you've heard but don't really understand outside of the tingle they send through your amygdala.
But it's not. It's real. It's our fandom. It's us.
To paraphrase a recent Twitter thread: we're a goddamn Nazi bar now. And it wasn't okay then, it's never been okay, and it sure as horseshit is not okay now.
To those of you who think this is still a "free speech" issue: you're exactly the kind of neoliberal suckers that fascists build their entire ethos around. Your insistence that "sunlight is the best disinfectant" and that the right to speech must be universal and unrestricted no matter what the circumstances is damnably naive at best and actually supportive of fascism in practice. Fascists do not participate in "debates," and they never operate in good faith--they very literally never have. Every time you let them "have their say," they corrupt the space in which they're speaking a little bit more, and they chase off one more person made uncomfortable by their rhetoric and replace them with someone who isn't joking in all of their "jokes." Deplatforming these people is the only effective way to protect your community and the people within it whom these fuckheads would see harmed, and any equivocation you do on behalf of some lofty, misunderstood principle plays directly into their hands.
To those of you who have supported, condoned, or "what did you expect"-ed the recent Aryanne-themed art pack that (laughably) claims it's about freedom of expression and is in actuality filled with swastikas, 1488s, and authoritarian imagery galore: I wish I could say I was surprised to see some of you out yourselves in this way, and I'm immensely disappointed to have previously considered some of you friends. I have no desire to associate with people who traffic in Nazi and white supremacist iconography, and I have no interest in whatever excuse you think would sway me back to "sanity." Forget my name, as well as whatever camaraderie we shared before. I know what kind of person you are now, and so do you.
To anyone whose humanity has been so stripped from them that they support in any way the current presidential administration, the state they have left the world in, and especially the recent state-sanctioned violence against protesters: my stories are not meant for you, and neither is my empathy or my good faith. Unfollow me, scurry back to your rat holes on 4chan and complain about me, do whatever you want to convince yourself you retain some shred of worth as a human being, but understand that you are--ideologically, artistically, spiritually--my enemy, and the enemy of every non-shitty person left on this dying earth. You and those like you are what's wrong with the world, and that world will be better for your eventual passing.
And to those of you unsure where you stand on all this, who just want to read about ponies and don't know why everything has to be so antagonistic: I get it. I really, truly do. Remember, I used to feel the same way: leery of conflict, uncertain of my own convictions, and above all confident that every disagreement must have a reasonable and mutually beneficial solution. And sure enough, there is a reasonable solution to the current moment, and it's an effective one too. But it requires conviction, and it is not without conflict.
In fact, the solution is conflict--with Nazis, with white supremacists, with the people who enable them and laugh at their jokes and think there's nothing to worry about. If we want to maintain anything approaching a community--here on the Internet, and out there in the real world--there is no other option but to kick these fascists and their friends out of our fucking bar.
I'm ready to do this, because I understand the stakes, and I understand what these motherfuckers will do if people continue to allow them space in their communities. It's not up to me to decide whether you're ready too, but for the record, we're still in easy mode right now. Pretty soon, these people will feel powerful enough to declare themselves the dominant ideology around here--and if that happens, there aren't a lot of other bars to go to.
The choice is yours.
Make one you can commit to.
Aragon - Slurred Speech
ScarletWeather's primer on leftist politics
For anyone who wants to know how we got to the point where free speech has become almost synonymous with supporting Naziism:
Everything You Think You Know About ‘Free Speech’ Is a Lie
How far-right operatives manufactured the “crisis” of free speech with books, think tanks—and billions of dollars
By P.E. Moskowitz August 20, 2019
https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/portland-speech-milo-antifa-koch/
As much as I want everyone to reach a postive, mutually satisfactory state of being, some folks take issue with the "everyone" part. Well said.
I agree largely with what you're saying here, but I have one counterpoint I need to address.
The Atlantic story was very disingenuous. The article talked about finding hundreds of racist images, but left out the important context that there are literally hundreds of thousands of images on the server. And most of those images were clearly intended as "jokes"—and while I don't find that acceptable, it's worth noting that the images clearly weren't intended as an attempt to paint Blacks as inferior or spread Nazi dogma.
While I agree that even a small amount of Nazi jokes are a bad thing, exaggerating the problem is also not good. This is fearmongering, and it's what sells articles. That week, it was "MLP has a Nazi problem", and the following week, they published "Australia has a flesh-eating bacteria problem". Both were gross exaggerations of fact designed to make you think the Atlantic was rooting out important, deadly issues society had somehow overlooked.
Certainly there are White Supremacists in the fandom, because those assholes exist everywhere. Fuck those guys. But there isn't a large-scale coordinated effort to inject racism into the fandom, and most of the people I've seen labeled as Nazis aren't apologists for racism at all, they just didn't want to see Derpibooru lose artwork of any sort, even the objectionable kind. I might not agree with them, but I don't automatically think they're secret Nazis.
I support this entirely.
5311392
"Large-scale coordinated effort" isn't how this shit works. It's always a slow burn, and it always lives in the gray area where there's plausible deniability about whether something's "just a joke," and it always involves a handful of people making a handful of posts that push the needle a little bit further each time, until...
Preach it!
I'm just going to post this insightful (and slightly expanded) quote from physicist Max Planck again, as it is relevant:
Because just politely asking these people to fuck off sure as hell isn't working.
(Yes, I dropped the f-bomb. This is that important.)
5311432
Why not? Why should anybody try to gain the approval of a group who hates them, or to change the minds of people who are either totally committed to their insanity(fanatics) or just out to make you angry(trolls)? The ability to simply tell idiots to f-off is critical to maintain anybody's sanity, and requires frequent practice or you go frantic over the opinions of idiots.
5311392 And this is the counter-point to the above. You're absolutely right, Trick. When people who are supposed to be authorities (like reporters) post complete and total garbage, it is up to the sane to respond with simple, straightforward truths that show just how foolish their claims are. The Atlantic more-or-less got their face pounded in by factual responses to their article, so hopefully this experience will make them learn their... (strains saying it) Oh, heck. They're reporters. They just about are unable to learn. At least we informed other people who read their misinformed article and were getting an incorrect view of the fandom. (And to everybody else, by 'respond' I don't mean frantic Trumpian Twitter rants, or Acosta-ian delusional imaginary weirdities. Stand up, make your point, sit down.)
Well said.
Good post. I wish we didn't have to take this stand, because frankly it's a pain to tell Nazis to get out, but... Nazis, get the fuck out.
Black lives matter!
*golf claps*
5311531
i.ibb.co/94tR9Fx/THISASS.jpg
What bothers me about a lot of what's going on (and if I'm being honest, I can see a bit of it in your post) is that disagrees with me=evil. Here's my thoughts on it, and I want to come at it with the most respect possible. Let's start out with agreement. Nazis=bad. White supremacists=bad. Anyone who thinks they're better than anyone else because of their race/gender/sexual orientation/religion/political beliefs/background/etc. is bad. Those people divide not just the country, but the entire world.
Having said that... I know we're in a bad time right now. The global pandemic is messing everything up (and from what I've heard, there's a pneumonia upswing in China, so they may be starting another global pandemic before we're even over the first one) and the whole BLM thing is getting everyone riled up, which is good and bad. What happened to George Floyd is inexcusable, and those officers should be in jail as long as we justly can. Protesting that kind of thing is great, and is one of our rights as Americans. The rioting and looting, especially the looting, is just wrong. Violence begets more violence, which begets more violence... and so on and so on.
I make no secret of the fact that I'm a Conservative Christian. I don't like what's going on any more than you do. Nazis are bad. Racists are bad. However... I don't think this started with Trump. I think the president who did a lot to divide the country was Obama. There was a lot of "if you don't vote for me, you're a racist" kind of stuff. In high school, my wife was talking with a classmate about the election, and she said that she wouldn't vote for Obama, and was told "that's because you're a racist." Were there people who didn't vote for Obama for the color of his skin? Absolutely. Were there people who didn't vote for Clinton because she was a woman? Absolutely. There will always be people like that, and that's awful. All of the people I talked to who didn't vote for Clinton (and full disclosure, I didn't vote for either of them. It felt like a "would you like to be kicked in the teeth or the nuts? kind of thing) didn't vote for her because of what they thought she'd do as a president. I think people looked at Clinton and thought "everything we didn't like about Obama will get so much worse if she gets into the White House." She was the physical manifestation of what everyone hates about Washington. There's a quote from The Dark Knight that I think applies here: "you pushed them to the point of desperation, and in response, they turned to somebody that they didn't understand." People didn't really vote for Trump as much as they voted against Clinton. We haven't had a "let's unite the country" candidate since arguable McCain.
People like a change candidate. That's a big reason Obama won in the first place. "The change we need". "I'm going to fix everything you hated about Bush." What we needed more than anything after Obama (and frankly Bush, who I will never argue was an amazing president) and what we need now is a candidate who says "I want to unite the country and lead us all toward a better future." Instead we have Trump and Joe "if you don't vote for me you're not really black" Biden, whose mind gets a little worse every day. We have people who are going to make you fear "the other."
What we need to understand is that as people, we really have simple wants. I want a roof over my head, I want food on my table, I want the lights to turn on when I hit the switch, I want a car that'll get me where I need to go, I want a good job that pays for all of that. As a father, the stakes are higher because I have to give those things to my children. History has shown time and time again that a man will put up with a lot, but all bets are off when they can't provide for their children. I think that the average person just wants to have those basic needs met, and we vote on the candidate who we think will be the best for that. We want to live in a country that gives us the best opportunity for success.
I guess in terms of the country swinging far right... I dunno. We all know that the voices who shout the loudest are the ones that are heard, and when you combine that with sensationalist media, things look pretty grim. Statistically speaking, we are in one of the most peaceful periods in world history. Crime rates have been dropping for years. But that's not a good story. That won't sell papers or get views. You know what will, though? Nazi marches. Antifa. Riots. Violence. Looting.
The same thing applies to the Brony fandom. Let's say that there are 100,000 people still in the fandom for the sake of argument. What percentage of them do you think are Nazis? Ten? Five? One? Point five? Obviously even one hateful person in this fandom is too many, but I still get the feeling, even in today's day and age, that the vast majority of Bronies still hold to the values that we got into the fandom for in the first place. How many of the Nazis you're mentioning actually even watch the show and get anything out of it?
But that doesn't sell. "Bronies still mostly awesome people." isn't a good story. "Bronies are a Nazi bar now." is. I think Bronies are still, on the whole, a group of great people united by their odd love of cartoon ponies. Hold on to that. I am. You don't have to look much farther than the latest BronyCon. The happiness and joy and acceptance and just... positivity was overwhelming.
In terms of free speech, I think the First Amendment is one of the greatest things about our country and one of the most misinterpreted amendments. The First Amendment gives you the right to speech, assembly and religion that the government cannot stamp down on. It's like a joke I heard once. Americans and North Koreans have the right to criticize their leaders. Americans have the right to be free after they do it. However, it is not a "I can say and do whatever I want without any consequences." It's to prevent a tyrannical government from stamping down on stuff it doesn't like. If I talk to my boss and say "we should kill all Jews." and he fires me, that's not him violating my First Amendment rights. If I said that and was promptly arrested and thrown in jail for fifteen years, that would be. As crappy as it is, you have to take the bad with the good. Does that mean that Twitter and Facebook and Deviantart and 4Chan and so forth can't ban that kind of thing? No. The government itself can't ban it.
The government banning speech it doesn't like is a slippery slope, one that is hard to recover from. "We banned A because we all know it's bad. Well... B looks like A, so we should ban that, too. Hmm. C looks like B which looks like A, so just to be safe, we'll ban that, too." and so on. And so on.
We live in crazy times, but I don't know if they're quite as crazy as we think (in some ways. In other ways it's exactly as crazy as we think) but I think we're all victims of extreme people shouting really loudly. Life is crazy right now. We need to unite. I think most people just want to have a comfortable life, and don't want to get involved in a lot of this.
Just my two cents.
First, how do I like a blog post? This is the one to frame it on the wall.
Secondly, yes! Preach! Centrisim will not win a fight with fascism, there needs to be a confrontation!
5311648
Amen. Far too many people would follow that declarative statement with 'But...' and then list the people they want banned. It's like the false argument that the First Amendment doesn't protect offensive speech. I mean if it only protected speech that nobody was offended at, it wouldn't be needed at all, right?
5311404
As someone who grew up in a racist small town? It's always 'jokes' until they're sure of the crowd, then the rhetoric gets serious.
Tale as old as time.
This is a fantastic blog.
We should not be equivocating about what Nazi image was a joke, what was serious, whether this image of Applejack saying the n-word is fine as long as Twilight looks upset. Purge it all, we can live without the "jokes". This fandom has shown that it absolutely cannot handle Nazi and racism jokes responsibly. The fervor with which people fight to defend Nazi images, yet don't lift a finger to address the very real impositions on free speech by the United States government (government! not a private organization, the government!) says everything.
Make a thousand blog posts legitimately and thoughtfully attacking structural racism and the police, and maybe, just maybe, we'll think about letting you have racist jokes back. Though the answer will probably be "no" regardless.
So, as I'm sure most of you will have noticed, the top story in the m-rated feature box right now is a nazi story.
Which to me just drives home the point: now that this shit is out in the open there will be no pretending otherwise. Even if the nazis were here before, lurking in the gutters (as indeed they were), they might have been restrained before by the possibility that if they were noticed by the community at large they'd be kicked out, and so chose to lay low.
But that's over now. Now it's out, and there can be no ignoring it and hoping it will go away. There is only either fighting to kick the nazis out, or else facing the fact that, as the abovementioned twitter thread says, this is a nazi bar now.
5311670
Georg Wormtongue, brave defender of Nazi rights!
(Honestly, it's the genteel and polite bigots that are the absolute worst.)
5311853 Arrgh, I have been caught out! Woe is me, for my innermost bigotry has been placed upon display for all to see. I must immediately make a pilgrimage... Oh, wait. That's colonization language. I must seek out a historically oppressed individual and plead for forgiveness. Maybe our Asian neighbor. He grows far too many cucumbers and zucchini, and is always glad to give us a bag or two of them. Be right back, and I promise to be more teel and antilite in the future.
5311771 As an official (and new to me) representative of this oppressive group, I'll go check it out. Thanks! (Oh, wait. That's being genteel and polite again.)
(edit: Hey, it's Mature! Ick! I've been baited!)
"Free speech" for Nazi's is just as dumb as "States Rights" for slavery
5311771
A nazi story... that satirizes the shit out of it and would be so offensive for a nazi that they'd also fight to see it taken down. The nerve!
It's almost as if satirizing ideologies was one of the oldest and most fundamental ways of fighting them! Who'd guess that? Maybe every single dictatorship that scrambles to censor every type of media as soon as they can? Sure we should do the same, every mention of something is certain to support it, we can't risk it! Then we can go and forbid others of mentioning any other subject we're against. Surely this policy, when made widespread, won't ever be used against any of my interests or, heavens forbid, principles!
It's this kind of thing that trivializes all the blood that was spilled to keep the modestly free world we have going. Yes, freedom of speech MUST be absolute, for else you assume the possibility of making censorship acceptable - and that WILL be used in the interests of those that wield real power. It's so very easy to justify censoring "just that bit of propaganda more", to use good intentions to install regimes that will be oppressive. The oppression began from inside, after all!
5311955
Blah, blah, blah... didn't read your bullshit: Fuck off, you bigoted, Nazi-loving piece of shit.
5312011
As you were so kind to point out, satirizing and trivializing are not the same thing.
Here's a hint about which thing that particular story does: if the target of your "satire" ends up not suffering any consequences for their actions/beliefs and is in fact treated thematically as a protagonist, it's not satire.
Also, free speech is already restricted in many ways. To wit: it's illegal to yell fire in a crowded theater, as well as to libel or slander someone publicly. Unless you believe those things should be allowed (and if you do, hoo boy), then your argument has no foundation.
All the guys defending Nazi symbolism because blocking that might slippery slope into censoring everything, when Nazism itself actually slippery sloped into 6 million dead Jews and 11 million dead others, but there's no way that could happen here? You can't eat your cake and have it too.
5312062
🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
Say it louder for the people in the back
Honestly, I agree with the need to fight back against the "jokes", imagery, rhetoric, etc. It's also very scary thought about going into conflict with these kind of people because of the type of behavior that can come from it.
The easiest example is nazis. Their believes and actions concerning ethnicity are unpalatable and historically we've already seen the results from their believes. Thus they make for easy enemies in games, movies, stories etc. So easy in fact that when talking about acceptable targets to kill in videogames nazis are almost always mentioned. They're often made out to be monster, inhuman and other negative descriptions.
It's made really easy to say that they're not human and don't deserve any mercy. Which is scarily close to, you know, things that nazis would say about for example jews. Which seems ironic to me when people say these kinds of things.
Now don't get me wrong nazis are people with monstrous believes but They are still people. That is important to keep in mind for any kind of group be it homophobes, racists, sexists etc. because if you keep calling someone a monster soon you will see them as only monsters and a lot of things become very justifiable when they're monsters.
This of course doesn't mean you shouldn't do anything but it's important to keep in mind what you tell people. Because once a message reaches the masses nuance nearly always get lost.
ONCE AGAIN I DON'T LIKE NAZISM. It seems important to repeat this because sometimes people can't deal with criticism without believing you're playing for the "other team" and yes I know there also people who provide criticism in false faith.
5312011 5312041
I'm just gonna repeat what I posted on PresentPerfect's blog earlier: Fimfiction is not the US government and is not bound to follow the First Amendment. Fimfiction can write codes of conduct to foster a friendly community and can kick people out for breaking them.
In normal circumstances everyone understands this just fine. But for some strange reason when it comes to literally the worst people on the web we're told that we have to treat them with much more lenience and forgiveness than we would give to anyone else, or else we are just as bad as them. To hell with that.
5312095
Sure, FimFic can create rules pertaining to the content of stories. FimFic does have rules - but they DON'T prohibit such content.
That's the bullet point closest to the one in question. If a story included nazi ponies attacking jewish ponies and with the nazi in the obvious right? Then it'd violate the rules. Otherwise no, they don't violate any rules on the site - therefore going against them is not acting according to the rules.
If stories decipting nazi themes do become banned then yes, you'll be absolutely right. Until then it becomes a question of ideologies that can, yes, apply freedom of speech arguments, for it'll be a change based on current political movements, not ideals, for this kind of content is something that already existed on the site before and provoked no motions to be removed.
I could argue that those that fetishize rape are worse and should be dealt with with ever harsher measures. Maybe you agree, maybe you disagree. But if one is to defend that a certain ideology cannot in any way or form be treated if not outright demonization then all said representations of despicable behaviors must find the SAME treatment. All stories decipting rape, gore, snuff and pedofilia (foalcon) whose perpetrator doesn't suffer consequences in the end (or all of them, really) MUST be expunged from the site for they also represent hideous facets of human history and ideologies.
To do otherwise would be the epitome of hypocrisy, for would make this entire debacle not about principles of what might be right for a friendly community but about censorship of a group.
Edit:
to 5312041, I was reading the story but had to stop for a while, ended up replying another comment before you. Will do so once I finish it, either to agree or rebuke your point with proper arguments - such as if the definition of satire does obligatorily include comeuppance of the satirized part.
Love this blog post so damn hard. I went through a similar journey to you, from the sounds of it. I used to be all about 'love and tolerate' back in the day, despite my own personal views being super left-wing. It’s like you said: I also believed in compromise.
But now?
At least part of the reason I'm so inactive within the fandom these days is that... well, it just doesn't feel safe anymore, y'know? I still check my notifications on fimfic and read the occasional blog post here and there. Outside of that, though...
Ten years ago, I was embarrassed to talk about being into Friendship is Magic because it was 'a show for little girls' (I'm rolling my eyes at my past self very hard right now). The reason I don't mention it to people nowadays, however? Now, I fear people might immediately assume the worst of me -- that I'm secretly a far-right sympathiser or something (or, sidetrack – that I’m one of those creeps out there trying to love and tolerate the likes of ToonKritic or MandoPony whatever predator has been exposed this week. Man, this fandom has issues).
I'm deeply proud of my fanfiction. I used to even share my fanfics outside of the community -- with friends and family! But it's been a long, long time since I've felt I can send anyone this way in good faith. It's not to say that the fandom doesn't have its bright spots, and some downright brilliant people still active in it. Yet, taken as a whole, it’s hard to shake the sense that it's a huge, festering monument to what happens when you take love and tolerate so utterly literally: so literally that, one day, without even understanding how you got there, you find yourself defending Nazis, or writing impassioned comments swearing that, no, really, Jetfire2012 is a still a good person inside, don’t worry that he tried to murder BLM protesters with a sword, guys, we can reform him!! (Sweet Lord how I wish I was making that example up.)
It feels so damn weird looking back and realising one of the very first episodes of Friendship is Magic teaches that, not only is it OK to cut people from your life, but that when those people are harming your friends/community, it’s just flat-out the right thing to do. I so wish that that was the main lesson the early fandom had taken from the show.
Imagine not having to explain to GROWN ADULTS why IT’S NOT OK TO DEFEND LITERAL NAZIS. Just imagine being able to tell people ‘I like a show about magical cartoon horses’ and not having to worry what the hell they might think of you.
5312040
That's the way to prove you're in the moral right. Dismissive language and name calling.
5312062
Saying that people are worried about a slippery slope is not the same thing as supporting something. I don't like Nazis. I think their ideology is evil. What the historical Nazis did was one of the greatest acts of evil our species has ever seen. I don't like that Nazis spew their hatred in today's day and age. I just also don't like the idea of the government dictating what is and isn't free speech. Facebook/Google/FimFiction etc have every right to ban stuff like that, and I won't get in the way of that or begrudge them that at all. It's when the government gets to decide that I get worried. There's a difference. I'm totally against everything the Nazis stand for. Always have been, always will be. I just don't want to give the right to decide who gets to say what when to a fallible government.
5312041
After reading the story and an admittedly cursory read of the Wikipedia article on it and with the definition given by google (that paraphrases the one from wikipedia):
The story in question does feature heavily on the exaggeration and dips into the irony, making the main character be a Jew that's called the superior race by said nazi pony, who then self demeans by considering herself an inferior race that should beg for the privilege of being bred by said superior Jew. So yeah, considering the nazi ideals of racial purity and supremacy it can be considered a satire.
On this:
It has worrying connections to the Hays Code, the "self-censorship" (as far as "if you don't respect it you're screwed" goes for self-anything) guide for Hollywood back in the day, where any sort of black-white relationship or homosexual behavior could only be portrayed if the involved ones were to be revealed by the end as being villains and suffering defeat/being killed/falling into disgrace.
You're defending your values, and that I can recognize as noble, but please don't do it using an argument that refers heavily towards a blatant censorship movement of the past, it will diminish your argument.
On the illegal part, yes, provoking the risk of bodily harm to others - such as in the panic and possible stampede yelling "fire!" in a crowded theater - or damage to someone's social standing through slander are indeed illegal. They are either putting others at risk through irresponsibility or a direct attack upon someone. They are not speaking your opinion on a subject out loud or telling controversial stories, so they are rather different in my opinion. I might be wrong though, so I'd like to know how would curtailing freedom of speech in opinions or stories be compared with curtailing such freedom when it puts others in direct risk of harm or when it's a direct attack unto other.
So you're another pinko commie? You think Nazis invading Fimfic is a problem, the commies are just as bad.
God dammit, why can't all these Nazi assholes, however many of them there are, just... go back to 4chan? Or go to 8chan, or, I dunno, make their own pony website with blackjack and hookers and systemic opression? They can't be reasoned with, they don't want to be reasoned with, so crawl back into your little hole and go whine about how we're all "snowflake liberals" or whatever, I don't care. I'm so sick of this. I'm sick of waking up to my notifications being full of essays on how shitty the fandoms gotten, I'm sick of having to think "wait, is this author actually a real actual Nazi for real?" even for a second, I just want to read fanfiction about colorful cartoon ponies doing friendship.
5311392 That's how these people think. You disagree with me, therefore you are literally Hitler.
5311662 You are absolutely correct. There will be a confrontation. The sad thing is that you and so many others have failed to learn from history. There was a confrontation in Germany. Between the communists and the Nazis. The Nazis won. The problem here is that one radical extremist position cannot exist in a vacuum. There will always be an equal and opposite reaction to it, another radical extremist movement. Communism has come too far to the forefront of society and politics in recent years. Learn from history, and guess what's gonna happen next - what is happening currently?
5312087 Hey, at least one other person realizes how hypocritical it is to dehumanize Nazis... on the premise of them dehumanizing others. Of course, the bullshit argument these people will put forth is that Jews cannot stop being Jews, while Nazis could just stop being Nazis. Firstly implying that 'Jew' is a race (even though it kind of is), and secondly, as if that's any better. You're picking on a group of people for their ideology. It's hypocritical. How do any of these people think that removing free speech from one group of people will somehow magically not lead to it being taken from other groups?
5311955 Oh no! I didn't know you were a Nazi!
5312356
fuckin' georg wilhelm friedrich hegel ovah 'ere
5312338
You know, I'm tempted to poke fun at you for unironically calling someone a "pinko commie" in the year of our Lord 2020. Maybe even toss in something about how totally "communist" it was for me to accidentally almost blow up my bookstore project (that you participated in, if I recall correctly) by trying to insist that everyone price their books higher in order to make an individual profit.
But in light of this:
I suddenly find myself quite lacking in good humor.
Get the fuck out of here with that anti-Semitic, Nazi-defending horseshit.
5312356
I didn't either. Amazing what you learn online. According to the internet, I'm also a great number of other things, some of which I can't spell. I don't think I'll have time to go to all of the meetings, or bake cookies. I do have the slogan, though.
i.ytimg.com/vi/3ToEvz-7trY/hqdefault.jpg
5312312
5312338
5312400
You don't deserve "dialogue," it only helps you shitheels spread your lies and hatred.
Fuck off, you Nazi-loving scumbags.
5311392
These aren't jokes, Trick.
For one, they would need to be funny.
For two, they exist to wedge in white supremacist ideas under the guise of being funny.
5311531
Oh look it's Chief Apologist Georg, just like clockwork.
We tried ignoring them, and the little termites have worked their ways into the foundations of the house. The whole damned thing is threatening collapse.
5312471 I'm sorry. (After that line, I had to say it.)
5312475
If only you were, and spent less time bothering people.
I really never follow politics, and apparently this applies to the mlp community, because I didn't hear much about all of this stuff outside Lily Orchard videos until today when suddenly everyone was talking about free speech in their blogs. I'm not sure what specifically caused this but I just wanna say that 100% free speech is definitely wrong. I grew up in Canada with these ideals so I didn't even think hate speech being allowed was a thing. Those were the days. But yeah, I certainly don't condone anything related to Nazis and those who are ok with neo nazis. I'm a little unsure what you mean by kick them out though. I guess you mean shunning anyone you come across that supports these ideals in anyway or at the very least harshly telling them off? Cause if so I give my 110% thumbs up. Thankfully I've had the fortune to not meet many people (that I know of) like that, but in case whoever's reading this happens to be one of them, I'm just letting you know your ideals are atrocious and you should be ashamed of yourself. Fix yourself or get out of this community.
5312493
Kick. Ban. Delete.
You give Nazis an inch, they take a mile.
5312041
Even beyond that, free speech as a legal concept just says the government won't punish someone for saying it.
It doesn't say that anyone else is obliged to listen, provide a platform, or refrain from enacting social consequences for objectionable speech.
5312398
It feels like people these days don't know what communism means and label anything not right Communism. It's also ignorant to the fact that there are many forms of communism. It's weirdly abused by anyone right leaning. At least I've yet to hear someone left leaning in any serious context accuse someone of being communist.
5312356
While you might have a point about other groups being banned and free speech when talking about the government, but this is fimfiction. There is no expectation of free speech on any privately hold venue or site. If knighty so desired he could ban anyone who says they enjoy watching Equestria Girls and ban any equestria girls fiction.
He can and should dictate the type of content that is allowed here. If he finds that the type of community that can grow around allowing nazi fiction or discussion in non historical or educational context is not something he desires. He can is fully in his right to do so and the community will adapt to it by either leaving or no long bringing it up.
On the hypocrisy of picking on a group for their ideology. There is nothing hypocritical about about defending one ideology while decrying another. It's like saying it's hypocritical that someone likes grapefruit while hating lemons just because they're both sour fruits.
Also when saying it shouldn't be banned to keep discussion open to convince someone I feel doesn't help as much as you would like to think. Discussion online lacks the personal of talking to another human, it's just text, there is a lack of back and forth. Not saying discussion is useless online, but that convincing someone to change their beliefs online is so much harder than in person. You might say that then there would be no problem with nazism since it's harder to convince people online. Except Nazism benefits from the lack of the personal to sound more reasonable.
Nazism is an inherently destructive ideology even self destructive I would argue. So we should be careful with how much it's allowed to be around.
"that they support in any way the current presidential administration, the state they have left the world in"
Ah. Hm. How stringent is "any way"? I didn't vote from Trump last time, I don't have any expectation of voting for him this time, and there's a lot I don't like about him, but I do think things could be worse. Please let me know if that indeed is too much, and you'd like me to proceed with unfollowing. And unfavouriting? That seemed implied, and I could also try to remember not to read anything from you again, if you like.
(Though I'm hoping none of this will be necessary.)
5312730
The fact that things can get worse doesn't mean they aren't bad now. Of course, I am glad that you are not voting for Trump. Please continue not to vote for Trump, and—if you are able—please do what you can to stop him from doing terrible things to our country, like sending in unidentified militia forces to snatch people off the streets in Portland.
5312356
Wow! You're just a good ol' fashioned Nazi simp, aren't you? Just completely mask off.
5311648
BronyWriter:
George Floyd was a father. I don't think he's gonna be able to provide for his daughter very well now.
The people you're condemning as rioters also have simple wants. They want to not get murdered by their government in the streets, and they have a very justified fear that that might happen. It happened for nine minutes in Minneapolis, in broad daylight, under the watchful eyes of half a dozen cameras. I think that it's safe to say that for them, all bets are off as well.
Please try to understand where they're coming from before you condemn them.
We're asking for private websites to ban Nazis, not the government.
They are as crazy as we think, if not more so. And Desmond Tutu said it best: "If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor." I wish I could remain neutral too and not get involved, but that's not an option I have, because the people I care about are directly in danger. One of them happens to be me.
5312062
Yo preach
Nazis are not owed a platform. It's time to clean house.
5312913
And I said what happened to George Floyd was unjustifiable and that the officers should be in jail as long as is legally just.
And said that I am more than supportive of private companies banning whatever they want. I've just seen a ton of stuff about the government banning it, and that's where I'm getting nervous. If FimFiction/Twitter/Facebook/YouTube wants to ban that stuff, go for it. I will not argue against it. I don't want to hear that crap any more than you do.
They have every right to protest. March down the street shouting BLM. Get mad. Scream. Let them know that you're not going to take it anymore. That's your right as an American, and don't let anyone take it from you. They have every right to be as loud and angry as they can possibly be. I don't begrudge that in the slightest. It's the violence that I can't get behind. When you're throwing rocks through the windows of small businesses owned by people who have nothing to do with the injustices, that's bad. When you're destroying and burning a car that somebody relies on to get to work, that's bad. Marching and screaming BLM is not bad. It's your right as an American. Ruining somebody else's livelihood because of that anger is not.
I said that some things are exactly as crazy as they appear. I agree with the quote, too. It's along the lines of "The only thing needed for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing." There was nothing just about what happened to George Floyd or any other situation like that. Things need to change. I love my country, and it's heartbreaking to see it going in this direction. I have opinions and I express them through my vote, as is one of my rights. Things need to change. I totally agree. I'm just uneasy about knee-jerk reactions that don't help.
5312993
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-protests-can-do/
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/de-escalation-keeps-protesters-and-police-safer-heres-why-departments-respond-with-force-anyway/
https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/how-violent-protests-change-politics
https://theconversation.com/is-violent-political-protest-ever-justified-72630
(The portion of the video I linked is a woman talking about rioting, but the rest of the video is good, too.)
scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/106278726_10223353263042554_4808784127549665904_n.jpg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=KY5_FUNmeB8AX9uz5Wz&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=dc9abf4929c339787208514eea152db3&oe=5F3A31B9
Stonewall was a riot
mymenandme.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/martin-luther-king-quote-a-riot-is-the-language-of-the-unheard.jpg
People who don't care for violent protest understand neither why they are protesting nor why they are violent.
Violent protest is a reaction. It's a valve going off - it means the system is so fucked that there's nothing left to do.
If people are rioting, it's because that's the only thing that can free them.