Doesn't feel worth it anymore · 1:03pm Jun 4th, 2020
This one's the big downer. I want to talk about why I don't write for this community anymore, even though I used to love it and have so much fun being a part of it. I haven't written a word of fimfic since December, and I don't think that's going to change. And that sucks for me too.
If you've been here a while, you'll know that I write a lot about inequality - especially in the United States - and that I've done more than one piece on white supremacist mass shooters and what influences them in the past few years.
To that end, I've read their manifestos. You shouldn't. It's not worth it.
In those manifestos, one of the most common themes I came across was that most of them were only martyring themselves because they believed that the coming race war was inevitable. They believed there was no safe or secure future for them, and that their best hope for the white race was to ignite the powderkeg, while "whites could still win".
What this means is that with the recent riots and protests, a lot more of them are going to be feeling less safe, less optimistic, less secure, and more vindicated in their hatred and fear of non-whites. They're also going to be emboldened that, push to shove, the government has their backs to finish what they start.
Because of that, I think there are going to be a lot more mass shootings and lone wolf attacks, even after the protests stop.
I wouldn't talk about this because I know everyone is so tired right now. Because the people most at risk are the people who most deserve to not hear this, most likely to know.
But I saw this community's reaction when one of its own, Jetfire2012, did that. He charged a crowd of black protestors with a sword. I wasn't going to spill ink talking about it, because it seems like the only person he hurt was himself.
It’s the hate and racism I saw emerge in support of him that’s disgusted me. And those who weren't brave enough to leave comments made the lay of the land known in how comments were up and downvoted, before the comments sections were locked.
Two things were made clear;
1) Most of the people that I saw in this community seemed to think that he did the right thing and that
2) His only mistake was using a sword, and not a gun.
Are you fucking kidding me.
This isn't everyone, of course. If you're going to comment that you also find that disgusting? Good! I'm happy you follow me, then. But it doesn't have to be everyone. It just has to be that FimFiction is an environment where those ideas and support for them is tolerated and people consistently feel comfortable enough in voicing them.
You know what I think of when I think of FimFiction today? What my most recent memories of it? I reported a private message from a guy with a Unabomber quote as his profile bio telling me to kill myself, and the mods found nothing wrong with any of that. I find a site that consistently platforms hatespeech and delivers more harassment to the people who complain about it than to the people who produce it.
I have reported the most vile, disgusting shit and seen worse than nothing from the mod team for it, active vitriol that I get this angry and abusive in my attempts to "shut down free speech" as more and more people with any shred of decency feel less and less safe or comfortable on this site, in this community.
It's been made very clear to me: The mods will platform hatespeech - racism, transphobia, misogyny - as long as it is said calmly, politely. And this community will cheer on attempted murder as long as it's against black people.
EDIT: I'm seeing a lot of people say they don't notice this, or don't see how big a deal it's been, and I'm surprised by how surprised I am. I suppose I really shouldn't be. I think it's easy to not see how much of this stuff has been happening if you're not directly affected by it - you don't think there's that much of it if you're avoiding it. I don't think that reflects badly on you.
The fact that the first blog I saw about the horrid shit Jetfire2012 did [1] was a massive fucking imbecile going "IT'S LIKE DARK SOULS OH MY GOD PRAISE THE SUN LOL" actively made me retch. I didn't comment on that blog because I don't want to be associated with that user, but I lack the words to explain how hard, exactly, they need to go fuck themselves.
[1] To fucking recap: Jetfire2012 wasn't defending his property. He wasn't acting in self-defense or to protect anything. He left his house with a fucking shitty sword to do kung fu poses in front of a bar he frequented very now and then, and then he lit up at the idea of finally killing a black person and be somehow justified in doing so.
So he approached a group of peaceful protestors, who were doing literally nothing; just hanging around, and also being black. Jetfire2012 saw this, let out a screech, and chased one of them for over seven seconds, trying to kill them. There was no reason, there was no justification, no excuse. Just a despicable little human being who got reduced to a pulp by a crowd because he deserved it.
Fuck him, and fuck whoever thinks what he did wasn't the most miserable, pathetic, disgusting thing he could've possibly done.
The Fimfic community is fucking despicable, and it gets worse every day. I barely interact with it in anything but the most absolute surface level. I still remember the hell we had to raise to get the mods to sheepishly admit that maybe glorifying nazis and the Holocaust was not cool, and even then what we got was the most tepid fucking answer we could get. There are still Nazi groups in this site.
Nobody's doing anything about it. When we asked Meeester to fucking ban them already, he replied "why don't we ban women and black people too then?"
I still use this page as a creative outlet, I still have an audience I've carved for myself that I like and I produce stuff for them. But this blog is entirely justified, and I'll be surprised if I stay in here for much longer, because this is fucking unbearable.
All the support. You're making the right call.
What happened?
Oh my
I only found out about the Jetfire incident from Cynewulf's blog earlier today. I was aware of that portion of the fandom, but I didn't realize it was that bad.
5275683
I think the Woot thread remains the quickest summary for the Sword-Guy side of things.
Everything else is much longer, much more involved to explain.
5275688
If it gets to the point where one gets to be aware of it, odds are it's that bad. What's worse, though, is that they own the place to the extent that even without a coordinated campaign to do so, they can 1) force people to kowtow to them, or out of the community and more importantly 2) mobilize people to undertake real terroristic acts.
Pull the plug, there's nothing worth salvaging.
5275691
His most recent blog post has more negative reactions than positive, should I be looking somewhere else?
There are fucking idiots in every fandom.
That's really all i can say about this.
5275711
If all you can offer is an excuse, you are part of the problem.
5275705
A lot of stuff got taken down and scrubbed really quickly. And it's against site rules to post screenshots of the posts you collect for this purpose, because it counts as targeted harassment. I understand the reasoning, but it makes these conversations a lot harder to have.
5275713
And exactly WHAT would you have me do? The mods jobs for them? Maybe go out and shoot any idiots with swords running at rioters? Go on then if you think i'm part of the problem how bout you tell me what i should do then to NOT be part of the problem?
I wasn't even aware of the incident referenced before today. I have had to deal with the occasional toxic hatemonger, here and there, but I have always wanted to believe that people like that are a very vocal minority. The few times such things have popped up in my own comment sections I usually have been able to count on other readers to call it out. I'm afraid to even look to see what goes on in the thread you described.
5275720
I'm not Zimmerwald, but I'd personally say not just dismissing them as 'idiots' and not just accepting them as inevitable to the space you're in, or letting them be background noise.
Just, as a general comment to refer back to if this comments section goes how I expect it to.
5275723
How was calling him an idiot defending him? Was my language not strong enough to express my annoyance at this?
5275722
Makes sense, but one can only do something about what they see, before your post i didn't even know about this guy. Unless it's in writing one doesn't know any one political views or beliefs unless it's brought up. If there is a problem that can be seen and addressed, yes i agree it shouldn't be background noise. But until it's noticed there's not much one can do and by then it's often too late.
I will miss your work! "A Winter Dream" and "Vertigo" are among my all-time favorites.
5275728
An idiot is merely deviant or harmless, and can be safely ignored. This dude and the sect he represents for purposes of this discussion are neither, and so minimizing him is a defense.
I guess I’m lucky that I hang out in the parts of the community where I had no idea shit gets like this :( I’d not believe it except I’ve seen the trash fires some of your comment sections turn into.
So yeah. I’m very discouraged that a show which is literally about friendship, has the message “racism will end the world and kill everyone” baked into the setting, and that went after racism and xenophobia in its last seasons with all the subtlety of a hammer, can still attract enough of these people to become intolerable.
This community I couldn’t tell you about, because like I said I don’t interact with that part of it. But if it helps, even they think they’re going to lose and the numbers show that, by their insane definitions, they’re right. And more to the point there may be more of them than you’d hope but they’re still outnumbered.
The current protests are scary, and it’s bringing out the crazy. But the thing to keep in mind is that the protests are happening. That we’ve had multiple opinions from heads of the army that they are not going to allow themselves to be turned on US citizens. We’ve had many conservative politics figures, ones who I otherwise despise, coming out and saying that this is too far. Polls showing 75% of people think anger and protests are justified, and 50% think burning the police station was too. There are cities which have demonstrated there is a right way to handle this, and mayors pointing to them as examples for reform. There is a lot of good news, and a lot of will to change. Things suck. But they’re going to get better.
5275734
An idiot is neither harmless or merely a deviant. Look at our Cheeto in chief for example. And idiot is an idiot.
Since this seems to be a conflict of terms more than anything else, i'm bowing out of this discussion before it gets more heated. I have enough issues with my blood pressure.
I get what you are going for, but i started writing ponies so i could be distracted by this sort of thing. everyone has a different view of things, but we all came here for ponies.
As a heads up, not going to be hosting certain discussions or arguments here, and I'm going to be very liberally deleting what I see of 'em. This includes, but is not limited to, "whether the protestors were just as bad as sword guy". That's really not what this is about and not what I want to see talked about here.
I'd handle it differently, but I only have the most brute-force tools available to moderate with. Not all 'deleteds' are indictments of the commenters who made them, I'm just working with the only tools I have available.
5275737
Trying to gin up false solidarity on the basis of the Bronydom granfalloon is beneath you.
Welp, I can see when I'm not welcome. Good luck
It's a shame to see you go. The Mare Who Once Lived On The Moon remains an all-time favourite.
But this blog is an eye-opener. I didn't realise it was this bad on the site.
I mean hey, I'm not the biggest fan of people but c'mon, really? A race war? And I thought that I've heard it all. Well sorry to see you go. This fandom ain't what it used to be. Course you don't really need me to tell you that.
Wait, that guy was a brony? I think I heard about it from Cracked, without that fact being mentioned. What was mentioned was a sort of half-assed "in hindsight, probably not my best idea" not-really-an-apology.
Like others have commented here, I have never encountered the issues you have and had no knowledge of the incident you mentioned until now.
I guess I simply don’t have the breadth of interaction on this site that many others have and I can only say positive things about almost everyone I have interacted with. Even those whose options differ with mine, the discussions have usually been less than fiery.
I guess, just like in society in general, you have the option to either attempt to reason with folks you disagree with or simply state your piece and leave them to their little world. I agree that if individuals are messaging with hate speech and psychological abuse then there is the expectation that mods will address the issue and failure to do so is an indictment on them but not on the rest of the community here. Just like I won’t avoid the CBD simply because some nutbag is ranting hate speech on a one corner of it and they have a few fellow nut bags egging them on, I also would not abandon the community here for the same reason. Just like how on the street there needs to be good people willing to intercede just in case one of these dills decides to enact their hatred on an innocent bystander, this community also needs the good people to stay and be willing to set an example of how things should be.
Your posts on society and your stories are a part of that and I would hope that you understand the value of being an example for your beliefs and opinions.
Anyway, I have waffled on far too much at oh-dark hundred so I’ll sign off and hope for the best for you on whatever path you take in the future.
Rather than going out and joining the peaceful protestors, but still wanting to contribute to the movement, I decided to play to my talents and write in a letter to an area newspaper. I was going to wait and drop a copy on my own blog eventually if they never printed the thing, but screw it, they haven't responded after a full day, so here it is:
And History Repeats
Put bluntly, things look grim. Over the course of my relatively short life, I cannot recall a time when so many people, all across the USA, were this dissatisfied with the state of affairs. My mother is a nervous wreck, paranoid and fearful. And she’s not alone in wondering when this will all be over. Meanwhile, I dread that, unless something is done, these clashes between those chanting for change and those who strike out for a return to the quiet norm will only escalate.
I was born in Chicago, and I’m proud of the majority of our history as a country. In fact, I’m currently a federally contracted engineer, working to help design an explosives detection device to replace the trained dogs we currently use. To help keep America safe for everyone. But the truth is now abundantly clear: despite the sincere efforts of many, America isn’t as safe for some as it is for others. And those people are desperately imploring the administration to enact sweeping reforms, only for their pleas to fall on the ears of a president wishing to respond solely with oppressive force.
I can’t help but think back to a time over three hundred years past, when men and women in Boston protesting a distant government which refused to listen turned violent. When what began with the destruction of tea chests sparked a revolution, eventually resulting in the creation of the United States after years of valiant, painful bloodshed.
But we don’t have to wage war again, nor should we. If only those who ostensibly represent the very voices crying out in anguish and fury, would listen, this time, and act to the best of their ability. Now, I’m not an expert in this, and I have no clue what exactly that would entail. However, I can plainly see that current events seem to be retreading old ground, ground we should have long since moved past as a nation.
If anyone in office is reading this, I implore you, please, be better than the old kings. Be someone who understands that power is granted by the people, and for the people. Don’t let the work of your predecessors perish from the earth.
You aren't alone here, Numbers. I assumed this would be the last place to provide succor to bigotry, but I guess that was too optimistic. Moreover, I'm seriously considering emigrating out of the country if Trump gets reelected. Because I refuse to support such a heinous sociopolitical climate. How's Australia this time of year?
5275772
Really appreciated. And I get that I have a different exposure to the community than a lot of people in it, and I don't blame other people for not seeing it. But it is there, and I don't have the ability to be that influence, as much as I'd like it.
5275774
Winter here in the tropics is almost as lovely as your comment. I hope they get back to you about that. Or at least that specific bit of history doesn't have to repeat.
5275774
I recommend Canada instead. A lot less partisanship over here (there are multiple "third" parties that regularly get seats), but it's otherwise pretty much diet US.
Yeah, there's definitely been a proliferation of right-wing reactionary ideologies in this fandom over the past several years. I first noticed it around the time of the whole Gamergate debacle, and it's gotten worse in the past few years.
And no, it doesn't make sense. A show with a mostly female cast, created by a feminist, which consistently advocates acceptance and celebrates diversity doesn't seem like the sort of thing these people would flock to. But then, right-wing Star Trek fans exist too, and it's about as left-wing as popular media gets. There's little rhyme or reason to it. In my experience, right-wingers are experts at mental gymnastics. They see what they want to see, and tune out anything else.
Unfortunately, nerd culture has proven to be fertile ground for this sort of thing - a group of mostly white men, many of whom are socially awkward to one degree or another, who think of themselves as marginalized and are generally disaffected with mainstream society. And there seems to have been a concerted effort on the right to reach out to them and weaponize their frustrations. That's what things like Gamergate were for: a method of radicalizing nerd spaces. And it's been incredibly effective. That's why you can't throw a stick around anime, video games, etc. without it landing on a avatar with fascist imagery.
The question is what to do about it. I don't know. I haven't come to the point yet where I'm willing to cut and run. I still love the show, and there's still enough to enjoy in the fandom for me to keep involved. As far as that goes, curating your experience is always a good way of preserving your sanity. Otherwise, all we can do is speak out and try to at least balance the scales. I don't want these people to have a monopoly on the things I love.
Like many others have said, I had no idea this even happened. I'm clearly part of the community that isn't as 'in the know' about it as you clearly are. Maybe we're better off that way, but even though we probably would rather not, it's good for us to know. We can't be blinded to the fact that stuff like this does happen, so thank you for sending the message.
Despite all this, I have no intention of leaving the site or the fandom, but if you do intend to hop out, all the best to you. Let your voice be heard wherever it might be most helpful.
I'm baffled. Baffled and deeply saddened. Does anyone remember "love and tolerate"? I supposed the mods used the defence that they were "tolerating" them. I find myself taking refuge in trite comments and cynicism, which doesn't help, but what else can I do? I lack the emotional or logistical resources to bring to bear.
Anyone want to build a new FIMFiction a mile down the road?No, we've lost momentum. I knew the site was dying, but I didn't know that it was burning and poisoned as well.If you leave, please write elsewhere. And then tell us where. Thank you for your time.
Olala ... first reaction without reading comments: I for example also have article about Unabomber on my hdd (because I had no idea about this case, and found it ...interesting enough to save it). I also read Derrek Jensen (End:civ) and Steven Best - quite radical thinkers... I also don't feel good about course of 'huh, humanity' ... But I also unfortunately have no idea how to change our psychology so 'freedom of speech' will be understood correctly - not like 'I can say absolutely anything' but 'I can say things with great attention how they will affect others around me' (and as additional danger here we have this "Politically correct' speech .. hard to avoid BOTH wrong ends ... :/ ). All those -isms (sexism, racism.. speciecism) have a lot in common - they about not giving an F about other .... how to steer us, humans (not just English speaking ones) away from this cliff is problem I have very little idea about even potential solutions ..... Utopia and dystopia actually differ not in technology, but now (human and other( beings are treated ... and dystopia hardly registered as such by ones who live inside it from birth .... Nothing new here, just reiteration.
I also really hope this sword thing (as well as gun thing) will remain in realm of computer games ... (but yeah, I wanted/read some things from USA..).
I seriously have no idea how moderatorial problem can be fixed - because isn't it part of this responsible leadership thing humans never mastered at bigger levels? Some sites are more nice than others, but because their core auditory from very start was not about to hit each other and guests ...
I don't know what to say except that I am sorry to see you leave, this is terrible beyond words. I joined the fandom 3-ish years ago after the worst of the early dramas. I have been proud to tell people about all the good things that the fandom has done, but seeing this makes me wonder how much of that was legit and how much was lip service. If it helps at all, I still want to enjoy the art and music and stories that people like you produce and I find that the acts being done by people like you mentioned to be, The Worst Possible Thing
. Perhaps people like you could create a new place for pony fans who don't accept this sort of hatred and bigotry to join together, a new and improved Fimfiction if you will.
I know you left the story, but I will always remember you as the writer who wrote Demesne. You really got inside Twilight's head for that one.
And I can understand your grievances.
A large part can indeed be placed in the category of "allowing it if it is done in an orderly manner".
Bad moderation has been in play for a long time.
I will miss your writing because you have written two of my favorite stories on this website.
It is a shame that there are such toxic parts of the community. But it exists in all communities and fandoms because as long as people exist hatred exists. The only way to remove these elements is to cast then in the spotlight to face community wrath and derision.
It really goes to show how very small my own little corner of FIMFic is when I haven't seen a fraction of the stuff you're referring to. Outside of the everpresent homophobia that seems to pop up anytime I write AppleDash, I haven't seen anything on the level that you describe.
I mean, Christ; we have NAZI groups?!
You're a good person, Numbers, and a helluva better writer than I am. I hate to see you leave. And if it's the literal cancer in this site that's making you go, then I say that's all the reason needed to excise and burn it out.
Fuckin' Nazis. My God...
I imagine a lot might not notice it based on who comments on what. All told at least with the stuff I read I’ve come across two people who were die hard Trump supporters in the skimming of the comments that I tend to do, and neither was practicing hate speech at least in their posts on those works. Beyond that most of the drama I’ve seen has been with people who criticize stories by dumping on the author or those who defend the authors work. Then again as I’ve said I only tend to skim most comments as beyond caprice I usually don’t feel much need to see other people’s reactions to the works I follow. A true shame to know that the mods allow death threats to go unchallenged. That kind of behavior is never going to benefit from encouragement passive or otherwise.
It's crazy to think that we have groups like that. I tend to stick to very small corners, and I only really interact with certain people on Fimfiction, if anyone at all. I can't say I knew about these groups, but I also can't say I'm surprised they exist. This is disgusting, and vile.
And it's even more vile that the mods wouldn't do anything about it. It sickens me, as Fimfiction is one of the sites that I consider a safe space to interact. I have to remind myself that just because shit doesn't happen in the circles that I run with, doesn't mean it won't happen in another circle.
5275824
At least for moderation, a good example is the rpgnet forums. They’re one of the few places online I can stand specifically because they’ve got a firm no tolerance policy for hate speech of any kind and are willing to just say “we don’t need you here” for people who aren’t willing to change or keep it to themselves. They can definitely be a model for other places online. One thing that helps is needing an account to post, so you’ve got a history to lose if you get kicked. But the other thing is just a clear, enforced, no nonsense policy.
Mmyeah I don't really interact with this site at the community level, but I've heard enough through the grapevine that this doesn't surprise me, though I wish it were otherwise.
You do what you gotta do, and I wish you the best with it. At least EQD flew a BLM banner for a bit there, so hopefully we know where they stand.
Amen to all of this. If ever there was something worth doing, it’s taking a stand and refusing to work with a system that isn’t just, and that’s about the breadth and span of what you’re doing.
I cannot believe, it physically hurts my heart to believe that people here in this community came out in support of the crazy bastard who tried to attack a bunch of innocent people who were asking for the police to kill folk less. Did these people not watch the show? Like, the entire last few seasons of it are about preventing this kind of racist bullshit.
This isn’t right. And if the moderators are allowing it, then it isn’t right to stay and implicitly support them and their toxic, hateful views. I’m probably going to do the same thing, though nobody‘ll care quite as much— I’m just a commenter who hasn’t finished or even published a chapter their first fic after all these years, after all.
Good luck. You’re a crazy good writer with some truly impressive storytelling abilities. Share that ability with the world, but do it for people you feel deserve it, because any site that says a man should have brought a gun instead of a sword to assault protestors clearly doesn’t.
What's going on now is not really easy for a lot of folks to look into. I am sadly one of those folks. My special needs mind makes me not see both sides in this. I look at the side that some call Nazi's and I am like hmm I see I look at the side that is goes like this I am like hmm. For me, I feel even though I don't pay much mind to the issues that happen here. Even though I do agree with you they should take them down. But I remember an issue a friend of mine but here is how I live I know this may not help many others.
My mind works like this. I do care just I can't get into the middle of it because first. I may be half Latino but I feel I have no right to get into the middle of it. Also thanks to this I have been watching for a while it made me think I should show this to others the mindset of someone in the middle trying very hard to understand what is going on but can't.
I use this because a show like this would be very helpful for what is going on now.
I had no idea that the mods were passively supporting facist hate-speech and threats. I will be withdrawing my patreon support immediately. (As soon as I can figure out how to do that.)
I've been backing away from FiMFic for a while now. I still track and read some fics, and will probably continue to do so... maybe.
I have seen this as well and I have been having to remove myself from following certain authors because of it. I was sick seeing of seeing vile racist blog posts and frankly they got worse and worse over time.