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Kkat


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Aug
9th
2015

Where Did Megaspells Come From? · 10:32am Aug 9th, 2015

wallpaper by Mateo-theFox

Ministry of Peace logo by Brisineo

I'll admit it: despite my intentions last week, I don't have a big, special celebration post devised for my 100th blog post. (Besides, after the other big, heartfelt celebration this week, I'm feeling a little melancholy.) At the same time, recently I have seen several queries and discussions related to the origin and nature of megaspells. It seems like a somewhat timely topic. So this week's blog is going to cover what, for many of you, is probably familiar ground: my headcanon regarding megaspells. (Because what celebration of a milestone is more common yet more loathed than a clip episode? :pinkiesick: ) But first...

:yay: I do want to give another shout out and thank you to all of my fans and the amazing Fo:E community. :pinkiehappy: :raritystarry: And to give a very special shout-out to everyone over at Stable-Tec Studios who helped raise over a thousand dollars in charity money for the Against Malaria Foundation.

Thank you for being such amazing people. :heart:

Now, on to discussing the bomb...

art by Mozgan

As you might imagine, when Mozgan gave us the impressive picture above earlier, it sparked some discussion focused on how much blame Fluttershy really shouldered for the megaspell bombs.

Ellenok:

...she didn't make balefire, or any destructive spells, Twilight and some zebras were the ones who weaponized them.

She made an amazing magical discovery, and her mind went immediately to the good it could do for the world, so she shared the knowledge in an attempt to bring peace.

There were never any MoP balefire bombs.

Mnemoniac:

Fluttershy's gift was far more powerful than just nuclear power... She meant it in the best possible manner, as hope and life, and it certainly isn't her fault that it was put to use in the most odious manner possible. However, as a leader and a pony of tremendous power and responsibility, it is her fault that she didn't see how it could be used as a weapon.

art by Dan232323

In a recent interview, I was asked "If you could go back and add one thing from the new seasons into the story, what would it be?" My answer was:

There are so many new things that the episodes from mid-season two through season five have given authors to play with. But the one that I think, would have been the biggest boon, lore-wise, to the universe would have been the Super Speedy Cider Squeezie 6000. After that episode came out, I wrote a small fragment called The Motorwagon Orb postulating that wartime Equestria could have seen the proliferation of motorized carriages based on that design, with "Flam and Sons" being the Equestrian equivalent of Fallout's Chryslus Motors.

However, a very close second would have been the Crystal Empire. One reason that I didn't choose the Crystal Empire as my answer is that adding it into Fallout: Equestria would have bloated an already exceptionally long story. Another is that it was grounded in the Canterlot Wedding episodes, and I am somewhat thankful that I didn't have to incorporate all of the elements of those episodes. But despite these issues, the Crystal Empire adds a lot to the Fallout: Equestria universe and helps retroactively explain certain things in the story. The Crystal Empire gives us the genesis of megaspells.

This is something that I explored in my blog posts on The Fate of Rainbow Dash and Crystal Empire Blues. However, this blog has gained a few thousand followers since those were posted, and the information was buried in Crystal Empire Blues blogs that were so arduously long (at least, for a blog post) that I can imagine many readers skipping them entirely. So I intend to repost the relevant bits of story below.

In an unrelated thread asking about the zebra's balefire bombs, I offered the following:

A megaspell is a spell or similar magical effect that has been boosted several orders of magnitude by a megaspell framework. Any spell could theoretically be turned into a megaspell by the application of a megaspell framework.

Balefire bombs were balefire eggs that were magnified by a megaspell framework built out of zebra-enchanted gems. Ponies built megaspell frameworks in the form of ritual chambers, as seen with Celestia One.

Let's take a look at the Crystal Empire:

A city built along arcane geometry...

...designed to focus magical energy into a central point...

...to amplify the size of a single spell several orders of magnitude...

...with a side effect of magical radiation that transforms regular ponies into an alternate kind of pony. (And in this case, with repeat or significant exposure causing the transformation to become permanent and breed true.)

That right there is pretty damn close to what a megaspell is. As such, in the Fallout: Equestria universe, the Crystal Empire itself is a proto-megaspell. (And yes, that would make crystal ponies not some fourth breed of pony, but the first breed of "ghoul".)

Considering this, it is expected that the medically-oriented Ministry of Peace would try to learn everything they could about crystal ponies in order for their hospitals to better render medical aid in accordance to their unique biology. And it is easy to see how the Ministry of Peace would have thus been set on the path to unlocking the mysteries that allowed the creation of megaspell frameworks. (Considering the nature of the Crystal Heart spell, I think it also helps justify Fluttershy's expectations on how megaspells would be used.)

Of course, anything involving the Crystal Empire is purely headcanon. Authors of other Fallout: Equestria stories can ignore all of this at their leisure. :twilightsheepish:

original art by Csimadmax

Copy of a report recovered from the Ministry of Peace hub in the Crystal Empire (as first seen in my Fallout: Beyond Equestria game):

From the Chief Caretaker to the Ministry of Peace HQ in Canterlot:

The unique, geometric layout of the Crystal Empire is not merely one of aesthetics. The entirety of the city-state is designed as a sort of conduit in a manner that bears resemblance to a magical matrix.

The purpose of this specific design is singular, to allow the ponies of the empire to focus emotional energies to amplify the casting of a particular defensive spell, for which the Crystal Heart is the centerpiece and magical nexus.

The use of positive emotional energies as a magical amplifier has long been documented -- perhaps most significantly in the 'communal casting' effect of the Elements of Harmony -- but the specifics of the design and scale of the effect seen for the emotional matrix and the Crystal Heart is beyond anything previously studied...

One hesitates to even call such a "spell" anymore. Until a proper classification for such intensified magic is determined, I shall hereby refer to such enhanced magic as a “mega-spell”. Needless to say, further study of the Crystal Empire matrix is suggested.

As to how this ties to our current studies of Crystal Pony physiology: it would appear that the amplified power of a "mega-spell" results in a side effect beyond that associated with the base magic. The casting of such a spell generates a subtle sub-energy that bleeds off into the surrounding area. A sort of "magical radiation", if you will.

The effects of this radiation are physically transformative. Temporarily so for a single exposure, as was apparently witnessed by the Ministry Mares themselves upon their first visit to the Crystal Empire. However, this "magical radiation" accumulates in the body until a threshold is reached and the transformation becomes permanent. Furthermore, the transformation holds on a genetic level, and is therefore passed on to the next generation.

It is worth noting that the Crystal Heart is activated annually. It is my conclusion that the Crystal Ponies were, originally, normal Earth Ponies. At this point, further study would require permissions to perform investigative autopsies on Crystal Ponies. I request that you obtain sanction from Princess Cadence so that this research may proceed.

Chief Caretaker Bedside Manner

One last thing. There were multiple suggestions that I spotlight the following amazing song in my 100th blog post. By popular request, here is Jessi Nowack as Littlepip, singing "Boulevard of Broken Dreams".

Our thanks to the Equestrian Broadcasting Company!

Report Kkat · 3,746 views · Story: Fallout: Equestria ·
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Comments ( 107 )

Y'know, I'd never even considered how the architectural layout of the empire played into its unique properties... Most definitely food for thought.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts! :pinkiesmile:

well congrats on your 100th blog.:pinkiesmile:

My thoughts on Fluttershy, "the Road to Hell is paved in Good Intentions..." Huh, I never actually noticed that about the Empire, makes complete sense in hindsight though.

Neither even though about the Crystal empires layout this blog has given me a lot of stuff to think about.

Grats on the 100th blog and damn your ability to make me think heavily. Never considered the Crystal Empire as the foundation for Megaspells but dammit if it doesn't make perfect sense. Also, that video at the end. Glorious.

Hold up, Kkat - Please help me if I misunderstood, but my interpretation of the story has always been that Flutters had the Megaspells developed for the purpose of mass healing technology (since the war was getting worse), and that other ponies weaponized it. Then, upon seeing the possibility of ponies annihilating the zebras wholesale, Fluttershy covertly gave the secret of Megaspells to the zebras in the hopes that M.A.D. would deter everyone from using them in the exact way that the Cold War went. But then, not realizing that the zebras were a "no quarter" type of radical foe, they took the opportunity for a first strike anyways.

At least that's how I recall it happening. It's also how I've written it in my expansion of the wartime era, and probably a little late for me to go correcting it. But if I'm wrong, I'd still like to know. :facehoof:

Okay... well, specifically the only thing that matters to my story is the fact that Fluttershy had a directive given to her researchers to develop a solution to mass battlefield injuries. I called it B.I.R.D. (Battlefield Injury Research Directive). I suppose what happens after the healing spell is developed is outside the scope of what I'm writing - I still like to have a solid understanding for my own sake, though. :twilightsmile:

I went a slightly different route, but it's nice to see that I can think the same as a great mind sometimes. :twilightsmile:

Huh. When you put it like that, the connection seems almost obvious, and it goes a long way towards explaining why Fluttershy never considered offensive megaspells. You know, besides being Fluttershy. Thanks as always for the deeper insight. :twilightsmile:

In regards to the Crystal Empire layout... I always thought this was interesting:

i59.servimg.com/u/f59/17/36/75/26/pony_i10.jpg

Hah, my guess was right. Keep it up on the lore Kkat, I'm loving it. Maybe when Fallout 4 comes out we could maybe create a new fallout Equestria or a reworked story with all the new Idea's that have come out over the previous two years.

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A new official Fallout: Equestria would be the best thing since the original! Too bad it's probably not going to happen.

3306360 Not M.A.D.

Communally
Assured
Reciprocal
Existence

Given the notes under that, it seems this was before ponies started developing weapons tech. As her thoughts were ponies could develop uber shields that made them untouchable. While Zebra's could enhance their healing potions and talismans to the point they'd pretty much have Wolverine level healing factors. Not "You try to kill us, we'll annihilate you right back so we shouldn't fight." but "I can't kill you, you can't kill me, so why are even fighting?"

Though timeline wise it iffy, since she gave them Megaspell tech about two years or more after it was developed. Though that was the prototype so could have been better refined. Plus, that might not have been when she gave them the tech, but when she confessed to the other mane 6 she did.

But anyway, awesome little bit of insight into how well the show seems to go out of it's way to fit FOE long after it's done. (Barring Twilacorn of course)

3306438 Existence, not Assistance. :raritywink:

:yay: C.A.R.E.

Crystal Empire's geomantic properties serving as the inspiration for megaspells sounds extremely plausible to me. Nice way of incorporating the show's advances into the FO:E story, even in retrospect.

Wanderer D
Moderator

I have to admit, kkat, the tragedy of Fluttershy's discovery is arguably one of my favorite sad parts of the background/world-building that went into FOE.

I never thought I'd say this about Fluttershy, but a cool mare doesn't look at explosions.:rainbowlaugh:

Thank you for being such amazing people.

Thank you for being such a big inspiration. It still amazes me how many authors you inspired to write their own Fallout: Equestria story and while my story isn't Fallout related you still have much of my thanks for helping inspire it. Fantastic job reaching one hundred blogs! :twilightsmile:

Ah yes, I do love these little additions. Even if you say their only head-cannon, I use them in a Fallout Equestria Pen and Paper RPG my friends and I play. I also love seeing how you would see where new things fit into the world.:twilightsmile:

3306455 will there be and official fallout equestria 2? Maybe one for each game?

It's interesting to note that both sides had rather different idea's on how to use Fluttershy's megaspells.

If you take in the types and the method of use, you get a rather interesting view of the methodology to the use of megaspells.

To the Zebras: It seemed they focused it as a combination as a dagger and a club. Get in a few good shots close in and at the vital organs, while following it up by bludgeoning the rest of the body while it squirmed in it's death throes. A very brutal use of megaspells.

To the Ponies: It seemed they focused on a far more broader potential. I think you mentioned that Celestia One was suppose to be an anti-missile laser. The Status spells that petrified or pacified zebra armies in a variety of different ways. Not to leave out the whole of deadly mixture of their own kind of different deaths as well from Megaspells the ponies made just in case the Zebras used theirs.

But then their are a lot of things I find interesting about the FO-E story. Things like how a ruler that won't even live for a fraction of her life time would be have been acting as the war progressed?

The way Steelhooves made it sound when he learned from Littlepip that Zecora wasn't a spy, you could think that the Caesar wasn't the one that gave the orders to launch the zebras megaspells.

Thanks for sharing Kkat!:pinkiehappy:

One reason that I didn't choose the Crystal Empire as my answer is that adding it into Fallout: Equestria would have bloated an already exceptionally long story.

How much bloat would it have caused? You'd only have needed to put the Crystal Empire in as another background detail that got a few mentions. Unless you think it would need more inclusion than that?

3306455 I could see the Empire as being frozen in time with all bomb's going off all the surplus magic in the air making the crystal heart malfunction and turn all the crystal ponies to crystals (trying to save them as is the hearts job) frozen in time alive but unable to move anything enter the field slowly turn to crystal. (and if you wanted bit of creep factor maybe they could her them screaming or have be like angels from doctor who but unable to leave.)

hi hi

Well, you know... 101 also is an auspicious number in the Fallout universe. :raritywink:

The portal to hell is opened with the incantation of good intentions.

- Watcher

3306572

I'll just direct you to kkat's blog on the potential for a sequel.

Short answer is "maybe, but probably not".

3306438 Ah, yes - CARE. :twilightsmile:

You know what's really ironic? This entire blog post which talks about a very juicy detail that we all love discussing. And I was just emailing the first four PDFs of Fo:E to a friend of mine to check out and I happened to notice that in the Introduction, in the context of how the world ended via Megaspells, the fourth sentence says:

The details are trivial and pointless.

:rainbowlaugh:

Well, that's it then. I guess we might as well all just stop talking about it. :raritywink:

So the crystal ponies are basically a type of ghoul, I guess that actually makes sense seeing as they seem to be unique to the crystal north only. However, one wonders what type of megaspell the ministries could use the crystal empire for.

Hey Kkat, before I delve into a gigantic rant (again), let me just ask this first: has there been any blog post or online discussion that gives the canon explanation for why the Mane Six were: 1) granted positions that basically made them the six most powerful mares in Equestria (in terms of authority, and not just the whole "they control the Elements" thing), and 2) why they chose to basically fight the war (even if indirectly, excluding RD of course), as opposed to opposing it from the very first day?

Yes, I do remember that the story itself gives multiple hints at what exactly went down, but for some reason I don't recall the answers being convincing enough (then again, it was a really long time ago).

Also:

One last thing. There were multiple suggestions that I spotlight the following amazing song in my 100th blog post. By popular request, here is Jessi Nowack as Littlepip, singing "Boulevard of Broken Dreams".

i20.photobucket.com/albums/b210/PunkCabana187/Why.jpg~original

3306640 3306632 Well, as seen from Crystal Empire Blues, my headcanon turns the Crystal Empire into the Fallout: Equestria version of Big Mountain.

3306830 When Luna was restructuring the Equestrian government into a wartime government, She chose to put the Mane Six in oversight positions over the Ministries. Her choice was largely based on the fact that these ponies were the virtuous heroes who freed Her from being Nightmare Moon. She believed those qualities would serve Equestria well, and they could serve as a necessary safeguard while She was in power.

By the time the Mane Six were put in a position of power, choosing to simply stop the war was no longer an option. A large part of the problem was that Equestria had fallen to the sunken cost fallacy. (Something that we have seen plenty of historical and even modern examples of.) Another issue was that by then the zebras' perception of the war had shifted. Even then, Fluttershy did act in opposition of it... which was how zebras ended up with the ability to create megaspell frameworks.

Originally, Celestia had been sending them on diplomatic missions to groups not involved in the war and generally keeping them out of the picture and out of harm's way. Even if they opposed the war (which I'm sure most of them were at least very unhappy about it), they weren't in a position to do anything about it until Luna took over.

3306899

A friend of mine pointed this out with several stories in general, and Fo:E in particular, that the idea of the Mane Six being turned into any kind of authority figures (let alone the de facto leaders of Equestria) because of some kind of crisis is a bit silly. Twilight Sparkle is the only plausible exception to this rule, given how she ends up as a princess later on, and even before that, she demonstrates her ability to organize and command very effectively. But the rest of them... the only way it would make sense if they are used as "celebrities". In other words, the ministries are actually Luna's creations, and she uses the M6 because they are already well-known and respected throughout Equestria. Place them at the heads of the new ministries, and you can be sure the employees won't hesitate to follow orders. Beyond that, they simply aren't qualified for such positions. Celestia might have called upon them several times, but each time they were more like a "spec ops team" (who wield the EoH) rather than a bunch of bureaucrats.

This is important because it assumes that the M6 were used instead of them actively supporting such an endeavor. Based on their attitude in the show, not even the sunken cost fallacy sounds like it could convince Twilight and co to in any way support such a war. Just look at how they handle the dragon in Dragonshy, for example: RD is the only one who tries a violent approach, and even that amounts to a mere a kick in the snout.

That said, at worst, I can only imagine them working to arrange a cease-fire with the zebras, if not some kind of peace where both sides agree to give up on their demands and cease the bloodshed. I understand that the point of Fo:E is to speculate on how ponykind could become corrupted enough to take part in such a bloody conflict, but the M6 themselves seem far too "pure" to have such a role in it. They are basically the very embodiment of friendship in Equestria, so to make sure everyone else can turn to violence and hatred, you'd have to corrupt Twilight and her friends first, not the other way around.

Either that, or you'd have to kill at least one of them, thus shattering their group, along with the Elements they represent.

One could also argue that they became victims of their own propaganda. Zebras, to them, became just another "big bad" that threatens Equestria (similar to Discord, Chrysalis, Sombra, etc.), so naturally they would team up and try to defeat it. The problem here is that they already have a zebra friend, so they know zebras aren't just some "mindless entity made of evil" that they need to slay.

Overall, my question is this: why assume that the Mane Six could "stoop so low" and become one of the many culprits, rather than make them the very first casualties, so to speak? To me, it seems like if they were out of the picture, it would make more sense for everything to sink into chaos and destruction.

megaspells are pretty

3306827 It makes me then wonder what happened with the creation of the changelings since they are very pony-like.

3306899

When Luna was restructuring the Equestrian government into a wartime government, She chose to put the Mane Six in oversight positions over the Ministries. Her choice was largely based on the fact that these ponies were the virtuous heroes who freed Her from being Nightmare Moon. She believed those qualities would serve Equestria well, and they could serve as a necessary safeguard while She was in power.

I often find it interesting how Luna is the only one that seems to keep her whole collection of Ministry mares figures. It could be taken to mean a few things. Either a show of how much she respected them. How much she saw them as friends in those dark times. Or possibly seeing how the war was turning them away from each-other and one day wishing to return them to once they were once were.:pinkiesad2:

I do like the trope of discoveries of old magic leading to new developments, which basically fits the Crystal Empire origin headcanon.

It works well to solidly cement the origins of megaspells with the show while adding a bit more mystery into the Crystal Empire's past.

3306942 Thing is we're only given bits and pieces of what happened during and before the war.

a lot could happen during that time in between the blind spots. In a lot of ways, this story differs from the actual t.v. show. One straight out example is Celestia doesn't seem to make Twilight a Alicorn. Also remember ideas of the war also probably switched greatly for the M6 as things like Littlehorn, the Death of Big Macintosh and the attempt on Celestia's life at the negotiations for a cease fire, and all the assassination attempts by cloaked zebras on various ponies of Equestria.

3306942

Wait, I'm confused. Is your argument that Fallout Equestria is silly because the characters are flawed, and your evidence is pointing out how they are also flawed in the show? I don't know if your evidence is supporting your argument.

First of all, the mane six in Fallout Equestria are not the de facto rulers of Equestria, they are de jure rulers of Equestria, as established by Princess Luna.

Princess Luna respected them and saw them as Her equals. And, I really think, as Her saviors. And so when Princess Luna ascended to rule Equestria and fight the war, She called Equestria’s most valuable heroes to serve as Her personal advisors.

- Spike, page 170

Personally, I think the mane six may not be getting enough credit here, as in the show they are all relatively successful mares in their own right, especially Applejack and Rarity, but as Spike clearly points out.

“Of the six of them, only two even tried to run their Ministries. Those were Twilight Sparkle and Rarity. The others pretty much just threw suggestions at their Ministries and hoped for the best.”

- Spike, page 552

Part of the point of this post about Fluttershy is that she didn't support the war. She directed her ministry to find a peaceful resolution to the war, with Luna's blessing no less.

“So Luna says the Ministry of Peace should work on a way to end the war, and bring everyone, pony and zebra alike, back to the table of diplomacy.”

- Fluttershy, page 276

Luna wanted peace just as much as any of them, but she didn't understand the zebra's motivations for fighting in the first place.

“Peace was what was hoped, but there could only be peace if Nightmare Moon was removed. Unfortunately, the ponies sent the wrong Princess to Shattered Hoof Ridge.”

- Xenith, Page 839

I won't speak for the intent of Fallout Equestria or the points it was trying to make, but stories about ponies are inevitably stories about people, and even though ponies have a fantastic society in the show, they do not brush off hardship without effort and struggle. Their society almost collapsed before it began in the Hearth's Warming parable because of hate.

None of the mane six needed to die to break up the elements of harmony, but separating them worked all the same.

“And you know what happened,” Celestia replied gently. “Twilight was always weakest when separated from her friends. And you will be too.”

- Celestia, page 2003

One could argue that the ponies became the victims of their own propaganda, but they didn't, and the memory orbs in Fallout Equestria illustrate that they did not believe zebras were inherently evil all the way to the end. Even the Ministry of Image was making a double play.

Because by the Goddesses, you couldn’t tell the public that the zebras had necromancy, much less that books on the stuff were slipping into Equestria!

- Little Pip's Little Pony in her Head, Page 474

Little Pip's story seems one of overcoming adversity, but in my opinion, the story of the Ministry Mares complements Little Pip's so well because it is about having power.

Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.

- Abraham Lincoln

Honestly, I've always been tempted to try and write a sidestory based around the Crystal Empire wherein I explore what happened to the Changelings, among other things(the Crystal Empire itself would probably be a barren waste, from hate if nothing else). Changelings as an empathic race gives us a lot of interesting ideas to play around with, not least of which being what they do when a war breaks out? The obvious answer is, join the medical corps, try to worm into officer positions, and take up advisory roles to try and end the war. But with Luna's sole advisers being the EoH, and the Zebras being so single-minded, well, that isn't going to happen. So what happens when a decades long war poisons the hearts and minds of the entire world, followed by the entire world being reduced to a savage wasteland of hate and fear? Well, I imagine something horrific happens to changelings.

I always waffle on what this would mean, but I have often pictured them as a more precise analogue to the Super Mutants of FO:3, big, strong, dumb, and lacking in leadership(after all, when you poison ants, the first one to die is the queen). I picture the protagonist of this theoretical story sneaking into whatever the equivalent of Vault 87 is(probably not an actual Stable, but perhaps a cave, or even the inhospitable empire itself), and discovering, not captives waiting to be exposed to Taint or FEV, not horrific mutated abominations, but the still-living corpses of countless ponies, most or all long since ghoulified, slowly being drained of their magic and whatever last dregs of love happen to be left.

3307268

My problem here isn't how things worked out once the mares were already in their respective positions. I'm talking about why they would have agreed to take them in the first place. The whole idea of the ministries feels like something Twilight and co would only be willing to do once their harmony was already damaged, if not broken outright. The "real" M6, to me, seem like the kind of group that would organize protests against the war, instead of joining the very bureaucracy that perpetuates it (and even they aren't dumb enough not to know about the whole "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions" idiom, which applies perfectly to them creating their ministries).

There seems to be a "missing link" in the lore of Fo:E. The moment where the ponies that embody the idea of friendship itself decide to abandon that idea and descend into the madness that consumed everyone else. And yes, even when they were just starting up their ministries already counts.

Part of the point of this post about Fluttershy is that she didn't support the war. She directed her ministry to find a peaceful resolution to the war, with Luna's blessing no less.

Just because she didn't directly work to destroy any lives, she did work to help the ponies win, which would be at the cost of the zebras' fate.

First of all, the mane six in Fallout Equestria are not the de facto rulers of Equestria, they are de jure rulers of Equestria, as established by Princess Luna.

Officially, they are meant to be "advisors", but eventually they form a kind of tyranny over the nation (e.g the Ministry of Morale). It may not be their intent, but it is what happens either way.

3307303

Are you suggesting that the "real" mane six never disagreed, never quarreled, never escalated a situation, never made an unintentional mess, never overreacted, and never fought to defend Equestria?

Just because she didn't directly work to destroy any lives, she did work to help the ponies win, which would be at the cost of the zebras' fate.

That statement is actually directly refuted by the story itself.

when Fluttershy -- the Mare of the Ministry of Peace herself -- stepped onto a battlefield, she insisted that her healer ponies tend to everyone wounded on the battlefield. Everyone! Pony, zebra, to her it didn’t matter...

- Velvet Remedy, Page 132

“Fluttershy wasn’t like the others. Rainbow Dash wanted to win the war. Applejack just wanted to protect other ponies. Especially after Big Macintosh died. Twilight Sparkle wanted to please the Princesses, especially Celestia,” SteelHooves intoned. “But Fluttershy just wanted the war to end. That memory is the moment she put her whole Ministry to that purpose of finding a way to end the conflict. And she did.”

- Steelhooves, page 543

“If both sides had megaspells, we wouldn’t be able to kill each other anymore. They’d have to stop fighting.”

- Fluttershy, page 1028

3307388

I'm not questioning Fluttershy's personal attitude to the war, but her intentions aren't helped by any of her actions. She's either passive-aggressive about it (by tending to the wounded of both sides, not making weapons, etc.), or she goes off on a "solo mission" instead of trying to get her friends to help her. The problem with her giving megaspells to zebras, for example, isn't that she tried to "balance the scales", but rather that she did it on her own. What one may see as "the right thing to do" could spell doom for everyone else, and in a way, that's exactly what happened. The M6 never solved anything as individuals.

As for the ponies having flaws: they certainly do, but it never amounts to something on the scale of the ministries. They never kill any of the changelings (as far as we know), the buffalo incident had ponies throwing pies, and so on. These occasional hiccups are well within the confines of their characters. But AJ suddenly turning into the head of the weapons industry? I find that a lot harder to buy...

3307416

I'm not telling anyone that they have to like or dislike any work of fiction, one's opinion is entirely their own opinion. However, when it comes to making statements about what fictional characters might do given extenuating circumstances, I think the fundamental attribution error may be something to take into account.

I'm not sure if you really meant to suggest that people who provide medical attention to the wounded, regardless of their affiliation, are being passive aggressive. I can't think of any way to take that except as either an insult to International Humanitarian Law and the Geneva Conventions, or a misunderstanding about the definition of the term passive-aggressive.

The M6 never solved anything as individuals.

Really? So when Twilight single handedly saved Ponyville from an Ursa-Minor, and when Pinkie Pie single handedly saved Ponyville from the parasprites when her friends were deliberately refusing to assist her, and when Fluttershy, the mare in question, goes off into the Everfree Forest alone to save the Cutie Mark Crusaders these are all somehow group efforts?

As for Applejack becoming the head of the weapons industry, that was well after the massacre at Littlehorn, and it took the death of her brother to convince her to actually take charge. And when she did, someone tried to remove her from the picture.

mmmmmm. I really do not know how well this works. Mainly cause the crystal heart primarily destroys negative energies. so the empire would ahve easily survived the balefire bombs, and even repelled the aftermath.
not to mention every year it would repel more and more of the corruptive magic.

however considering the origins of the equestrian and zebra bombs, it doe smake sense that those affected would become zombie and such. its necromantic.

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Passive-aggressive: "of or denoting a type of behaviour or personality characterized by indirect resistance to the demands of others and an avoidance of direct confrontation."

Fluttershy doesn't want to help Equestria win the war at the cost of so much bloodshed, but she never actually refuses to do anything outright. She goes off on her own little projects that she personally believes will help everyone else, and some of these actions completely go against the expectations of her friends, yet Fluttershy never directly confronts her friends, which might have been far more helpful.

As for those examples you mentioned, ever notice the pattern among them? Twilight saves Ponyville from the Ursa Minor, but only after her friends tell her that it's okay, they won't see her as a showoff because she demonstrates great magical skill in saving them. Twilight and co try to stop the parasprites as a team, except they leave Pinkie Pie out of said team, and they end up failing. If they had brought on Pinkie earlier, most of the damage could have been avoided.

In every such scenario, the lack of communication and cooperation is what gets the M6 in trouble. It doesn't matter if, at the end, only one of them "saves the day", because the very reason they got in trouble is because one (or more) of them tried to solve everything on their own. The wedding episode is another example. Even though Twilight turns out to have been correct about "Cadence" being an impostor, the way she acted made it seem like some sort of personal vendetta, and her friends (rightfully) refused to assist her in such a thing.

and when Fluttershy, the mare in question, goes off into the Everfree Forest alone to save the Cutie Mark Crusaders these are all somehow group efforts?

"Fluttershy saving three kids lost in a forest" is not exactly a crisis on the same level as Nightmare Moon, for example...

The Crystal Empire being, essentially, a massive resonance chamber, hmm, that's great, I'm all for adopting this headcanon. :moustache:

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And if Fluttershy's friends had made any demands of her to the contrary, that definition might be applicable, but as it turns out, she was an independent leader of her own ministry, with the backing of her one superior, to act for the benefit of those she was interested in benefiting. If Fluttershy was saving zebras to spite Rainbow Dash, then the definition might be applicable, but there was not indirect resistance of demands.

In Boast Busters, Twilight is surprised that her friends don't dislike her after she saves the town. It is after she saves ponies that they tell her they are proud of her, and they they "had no idea she had so much ability." At no point does she take Spike's advice about showing off, but rather she acts on her own initiative to help others in need.

Applejack: Heavens to Betsy! We knew you had ability, but not that much!
Twilight Sparkle: I'm sorry. Please, please don't hate me.
Rainbow Dash, Applejack, and Rarity: Hate you?
Rarity: Why, whatever do you mean, darling?

In Swarm of the Century, the others leave Pinkie Pie out of the team, and she goes and saves the day by herself. They tried to "bring Pinkie on earlier," and Pinkie Pie knew that their methods wouldn't work. And I find that what the Mane Six could have done is less relevant to the discussion than what they actually did. In Fallout Equestria, the Mane six could have acted differently as well, and the strength of working together seems to be a core theme to the story.

As for saying that Fluttershy saving the Cutie Mark Crusaders by herself doesn't count, I find this to be an invocation of No True Scotsman.

An ad hoc attempt to retain an unreasoned assertion. When faced with a counterexample to a universal claim, rather than denying the counterexample or the original claim, this fallacy modifies the subject of the assertion to exclude the specific case or others like it by rhetoric.

• All serious crises require the mane six to work together.
• No crisis that a pony can solve by herself is serious enough to consider.

Circular logic.

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Because it really wasn't a serious crisis. "Three kids lost in the woods" isn't comparable to the vast majority of problems the Mane Six had to face in the show, let alone any of the fanon material. When they had to face a dragon, they all tried their individual methods, and it didn't work. Fluttershy had to do it, who they dragged along instead of finding a sensible way to convince her to help them with the dragon.

But fine, let's play it your way. Even if I break the "circular logic", it's the same thing all over again: the CMC go off on their little adventure, rather than tell Fluttershy that one of the chickens is missing, and this gets them in trouble. On top of that, Fluttershy decided to take on babysitting three children that she clearly could not control through conventional means (it's only once she shows off how powerful her Stare is that the CMC stop messing around). And once things inevitably went wrong, she still tried to solve everything on her own. Luck may have been on her side, but the moral of the episode clearly wasn't "if the children under your care get lost in the woods, go after them alone without telling anyone else first".

Once again, lack of communication is what causes problems.

Yes, I remembered Boast Busters wrong, but it doesn't really change the argument: if Twilight could have figured it out earlier that her friends wouldn't hate her for having great skill in magic (by going up to them and asking them), she would have hesitated even less, and maybe saved a few more houses from getting crushed.

Almost every episode of FiM focuses on friends having to work together to solve problems, even if all that's needed is for them to sit down and talk to each other, and with every season, the characters do develop somewhat in this regard. Conversely, Fo:E comes along and suggests that, in the midst of a horrible conflict, the last thing on the Mane Six's agenda was "getting together as friends to solve the problem."

In Fallout Equestria, the Mane six could have acted differently as well, and the strength of working together seems to be a core theme to the story.

Clearly the M6 are used as an example, i.e "this is what happens when we forget about friendship", but I honestly don't get why they had to be culprits rather than victims. Just for reference, when AJ wanted to run away from Ponyville (i.e just one of their friends), the rest of the M6 would not stop until they could convince her to come back to them. They are hardly the kind of group that could so easily forget about the very things that tie them together. Like I said, it makes more sense to have them be broken apart first, after which the rest of ponykind could follow. Just think of what Discord did: find the ones who represent harmony and spread chaos among them.

One could argue that, as everything around the Ministry Mares was falling apart, they refused to believe the group itself was drifting apart as well (plus they weren't always physically separated), but it still feels out of character for them to let that happen.

3307806

Three children in danger of death isn't serious? Ok.

How about this. Discord is threatening to ruin all of Equestria in a reign of chaos, and what does Fluttershy do? She directly refuses her friend's requests to use the Elements of Harmony on him, instead she uses her own methods at her own discretion and reforms him, saving everyone.

Denying the Antecedent
This is a formal fallacy of inferring the inverse from a statement.
• If the Moral of the Story was "If children under your care get lost in the woods, go after them alone without telling anyone else first," then it would be justifiable.
• The Moral of the Story wasn't "If children under your care get lost in the woods, go after them alone without telling anyone else first."
• Therefore, "If children under your care get lost in the woods, go after them alone without telling anyone else first." is unjustifiable.

Just because someone does not suggest something as a moral of the story, does not mean they are suggesting that the thing is wrong.

The moral of the story in Stare Master was encapsulated by Fluttershy at the end.

I assumed that I'd be just as good with kids as I am with animals. Boy, was I wrong. I really learned the hard way not to bite off more than I could chew.

Fluttershy was good with animals, and knew she was good with animals, she had every reason to be confident in her abilities to handle the animals of the Everfree Forest. She didn't have a reason to assume that she would be able to handle the girls. When she realized her mistake in not keeping better track of the girls, she went and corrected it, and because she acted quickly as a responsible adult, she was able to save the girls' lives. The cause of the problems in Stare Master was making assumptions.

I have to admit, I am really confused by your argument.
• In Friendship is Magic, "the lack of communication and cooperation gets the Mane Six in trouble."
• In Fallout Equestria, "the lack of communication and cooperation gets the Mane Six in trouble."
• Therefore, Fallout Equestria is wrong.

That just does not follow.

Conversely, Fo:E comes along and suggests that, in the midst of a horrible conflict, the last thing on the Mane Six's agenda was "getting together as friends to solve the problem."

Actually, the story directly contradicts that statement. The ministries didn't even get founded until nearly halfway through the war.

‘The Massacre at Littlehorn broke Princess Celestia’s heart. After that, nearly midway through the war, Princess Celestia decided She wasn’t the right pony to lead Equestria anymore. So She stepped down, abdicated Her position to Her sister, Princess Luna.’

The war itself was years long. Long enough for the mane six to have grey hair by the end. The mane six had been getting together, trying to solve the problem, and going on diplomatic missions for years. Hardly the last thing they did.

So Princess Celestia shielded them from the worst of the war, finding quests for them that kept them, mostly, out of harm’s reach, or at least away from the battlefields. Sending them on diplomatic missions to the griffins and the buffalo -- things like that.

- Spike

Are you saying that the Mane Six were not victims in Fallout Equestria, that they deserved to die by Balefire?

Having responsibility and being a victim are not mutually exclusive states. They had power and responsibility and to some degree they misused that power, but the war between Equestria and the Zebras was not a black and white struggle between good and evil. And honestly, I feel it would have been a cop out to absolve the heroes of the responsibility that comes along with their power.

Also, Fallout Equestria goes into some rather gruesome detail about just what lengths the Ministry Mares went to in order to keep themselves together, including carving one's own soul into pieces.

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I'm talking about why they would have agreed to take them in the first place.

I imagine they accepted the Princess's request to help save Equestria for the same reasons they always had; because Equestria was in danger, because the Princess asked them, and because they might be able to help. Even then, I got the impression that they were unhappy with the idea of a war (The early memories in particular had them looking into ways of preventing or peacefully ending it).

Fluttershy focused on preserving and saving lives, seeking ways to heal both sides, and ideally, to get them all to stop fighting ("We must do better"). AJ's biggest focus was armor to protect ponies, not to kill, and she was furious with some of the weapon developments others in her ministry did (She even seemed a little uncomfortable with the "new-fangled firearms" in one of the earliest memories). Pinkie just wanted to make ponies happy (And can be a little overbearing at it even without a serious drug addiction). Twilight was given serious resources to conduct magical research of all kinds, plus her tendency to want to impress the princess, and her two biggest projects were to improve ponies, and to shoot down enemy megaspell missiles (The only time I remember her mentioning Celestia One was discussing its ability to defend against zebra missiles). Rarity was entirely focused on internal matters, focusing on keeping up morale and protecting from espionage; her one contribution to anything combat-related was armor. The only one who really seemed "into" the conflict in any real sense was Rainbow Dash... which I think is perfectly fitting for a pony who was looking into a military career and was always eager for a fight.

They all seem to have accepted the Princess's proposal with good intentions, and with the idea that they really could help ponies. In the beginning, they even hoped they could end the war through diplomacy, and at least one of them never gave up that hope. They certainly didn't seem to be aggressive and xenophobic as some were, and even their own slight declines appears to have taken many, many years, and often some significant personal event (Such as Zecora).

3307507 I think you may have misunderstood what I am saying. I am sorry if I confused you. :twilightsheepish:

Not all megaspells are destructive. (For example: Fluttershy's healing megaspell.)
All megaspells are spells that are magnified to affect a huge area.
All megaspells have magical radiation that can alter ponies.

Balefire megaspells create "balefire" ghouls, a.k.a. "normal ghouls". (Example: Ditzy Doo.)
Pink Cloud megaspells create "pink cloud" ghouls, a.k.a. "Canterlot ghouls". (Example: Steelhooves.)
The Crystal Heart created "crystal heart" ghouls, a.k.a. "Crystal Ponies". (Example: any Crystal Pony.)

Does that help? :pinkiesad2:

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I like to adopt the stance PH took, suggesting that maybe instead of "celebrities", the M6 were used as scapegoats to justify unethical practices during the war, as well as the massive casualties. Afterwards, Luna would've had them arrested and exempted herself from much of the blame. In order to maintain this, interaction between the M6 was purposefully limited to prevent them from confirming each other's doubts about the war and doing something about it. Together they never would have allowed it to happen, and so they were kept apart as much as possible whilst the war escalated.

That being said, this IS all from a side story. At the very least, it's an interesting thought.

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