Chapter 24: Weather Station
“You really think we’re gonna find somewhere for the griffons to live all the way out here?” Applejack asked. Her voice was obviously skeptical, and Twilight could see why. Past the Crystal Empire, the north was an absolute wasteland. Twilight had never seen this land before the great eruption, though something told her global cooling had only made it worse. Their little balloon struggled to stay airborne, and probably would’ve fallen right out of the sky if it wasn’t for the magic protecting it.
She looked for signs of life—forests would be ideal, since that would mean large scale life. But she saw nothing.
The yaks lived up here, though far, far to the east. From what she’d seen of their society, they barely weathered these winters. How a species with much less natural insulation and no wilderness farming experience would do up here… Twilight Sparkle could already tell they were doomed.
Twilight sighed, slumping against the side of her basket. “There were stories… back when the Crystal Empire was actually an empire, instead of just one city—they had a whole network of magic keeping the north from getting this cold. I was hoping we might be able to find some of it. Now that the Crystal Heart is back, we could probably switch it back on. That would give the griffons somewhere to live that isn’t in our territory.”
“North, south…” Rainbow Dash settled in beside her, trying to hide her shivering inside a thick jacket. Even the pegasus was having trouble up here. Her other friends weren’t doing much better—poor Fluttershy looked like she’d been eaten alive by a monster made of wool and white fluff. Only Applejack wore nothing more than usual, apparently staying warm on pure stubbornness. “I don’t see the difference. Why is putting them up here better than keeping them down there?”
“Because, dear,” Rarity began, not actually moving from her own warm perch below a small mountain of blankets. Spike was in there too, somewhere. “Because the land here would be fertile, if only we could warm it up. And if we did warm it, everypony living here would depend on the Crystal Heart to stay warm. The griffons simply couldn’t do anything barbaric, because as soon as they did the Heart would stop working and they’d all freeze.”
“I don’t like it,” Applejack said, to nopony in particular. Icicles had formed along her back, and snow had stuck in her tail and mane, but she didn’t seem to notice. “Trickin’ them birds up here with better land and then holdin’ em hostage just don’t seem right to me. Both sides trickin’ each other like this will get somepony hurt. Later, if not sooner.”
“It wasn’t our first choice,” Twilight said, frowning slightly at the truth in Applejack’s words. But so far as she could see it, the griffons were the ones being deceitful, and they had been from the beginning. Equestria had its demands, and they had made them clear from the start. Apparently they’d been asking too much for the birds to tolerate, but at least they had been honest about it. That was more than she could say for the birds. “But we know most of their homeland isn’t livable anymore. We already know they have enough airships to move their whole population around. If we just dump them on a shore covered with ash where all the plants are dead, they’ll fly straight back looking for blood.”
General acknowledgement from her friends. At least they could see sense. If only the griffons could be so easily convinced. “The dragon lands aren’t being used that much, but there’s no convincing Ember of that. She says if refugees show up there, they’ll eat them.” Twilight shivered at the thought. It was hard to tell when the dragon was being facetious about such a claim. Plenty of ponies had died that way, in ancient history. Griffons must not taste all that different.
“There’s something down there,” interrupted Rainbow Dash, pointing with one wing.
Twilight followed her gaze, and after a few seconds of staring she could just make out what her friend had been talking about. There, rising just above the snow, was a crystal spire of brilliant pink with a clear stone set into its top. She had taken it for a large hunk of ice, but the cut was too perfect. Not only that, but the snow didn’t seem to quite touch the crystal. It got very close, then stopped just above its surface as though prevented by an invisible barrier.
Twilight immediately vented some of the lift gas, guiding their balloon down towards the spire. Well, as best she could. “Give us a push, Rainbow,” she asked, hoping it sounded polite.
“Yeah, yeah.” She got out. “You’ve got wings too, princess.”
“Somepony’s got to steer,” she answered, smiling sheepishly. Her friend rolled her eyes, then took one of the ropes on the outside and started to pull. There was a chance that they could just ride the wind down to the ground, but if they did they could end up miles away. In snow that thick, a pony was likely to sink well past their head without the proper gear.
A few minutes later and they had touched down as close to the tower as they dared. “Alright, everypony. We need to get down through the snow. Any ideas?”
Rarity made a vague gesture from inside the blankets. “Maybe you should just teleport the snow away. It’s not like anypony will miss it.”
Twilight shook her head. “It isn’t that easy. I could teleport us down under the snow if I knew there was somewhere to send us to. But nopony really knows what these weather stations looked like. Even the crystal ponies don’t seem to remember very much.” Indeed, if there had been any weather station operators in the Crystal Empire, none of them had ever got their memories back. More likely those ponies had been on the outskirts, and so had been taken by Sombra while he was conquering things.
“We could melt our way down?” Applejack suggested. “I can see trees out there in the distance. We could start a big bonfire, let the heat work its way down…”
“That’s silly,” Pinkie Pie observed. “The water will just put our fire out. And while we’re trying to start it over and over again, we’ll just keep getting colder and colder.”
It was daytime now, and already Twilight could see that her friends would be in bad shape if they stayed down here past nightfall. But if we don’t get it switched back on before we leave, we might never find this place again.
“If this was a Daring Do book there’d be an entrance up here on top for us to find,” Rainbow Dash suggested. “Maybe we can look for some riddles or something along the outside, then climb down some stairs on the inside.”
Twilight doubted there would be many secret puzzles on something that had been a public utility a long time ago, but that didn’t mean her friend’s plan had no merit. “There might be some kind of access,” she agreed. “Crystal ponies didn’t have wings, so they probably needed a way to get out onto the roof to fix things. Let’s see what we can find.”
And they looked. Well, some of them looked. The others stayed on the hot-air-balloon, clustered around the burner that they used to heat the air. Twilight got progressively more worried as their last few hours of daylight went by, without much success. It was just starting to get dark by the time Fluttershy of all ponies found the way in. Hidden under a layer of ice, there was a hatch all frozen over. Twilight melted it with a careful spell, then opened the passage down into the crystal spire.
She had dark memories of spiral staircases like this, but at least it wasn’t filled with packed-in snow. “Rainbow, bring the rope ladder. Help everypony up here, and tell them to bring our supplies. We’ll make camp in here for the night.”
“Aye, princess!” She saluted, grinning mischievously as she did so. As she flew off, Twilight made her way down into the dark.
She expected Fluttershy to follow, but the pegasus stubbornly remained on the other side of the threshold. “You go ahead. I’ll wait for everypony else.”
Twilight shrugged, lighting her horn with a faint glow before diving off the steps. It was a surprisingly long way down, before the tower opened into a chamber that she found strikingly familiar. It reminded her of the crystal palace, with a central focus of transparent blue stone waiting to receive some important charm. Like the crystal heart, though this one was barely as tall as her hoof. So obviously not intended for the same thing. Twilight was right—there were no riddles, no traps, nothing like that. Just a few rooms with long-decayed furniture, though a few items had survived remarkably intact.
Anything made of wood had been dissolved to organic sludge, but the crystal empire had made its finer things out of rock. That was a little more enduring. She found one room that had more little stones in it than a jeweler’s shop, and even had equipment that would’ve fit well in one. Dozens and dozens of little cubbies, alongside polished magnifiers, and tiny metal hammers.
The more she saw, the more intimidated she felt. The Crystal Empire didn’t just make it warmer with these things… I bet they could control their weather as well as we can. There were markings on each little box, written in a script that Twilight couldn’t read. It was not the Crystal Empire’s language, which she’d picked up in little bits and pieces. It seemed more like a number system.
“Ooooooooh!” Rarity exclaimed from behind her, a second glow joining Twilight’s. She could make out other voices from behind her as well—her friends had arrived. “Quite the assortment of gemstones in here. Such pure crystals!”
“Don’t,” Twilight said, extending a wing to stop her. “It all stays here. Even if this weather station isn’t working anymore, there might be enough here to reverse engineer how it worked. Or… maybe it is still working.”
“Weather station?” Rainbow Dash walked up beside her, staring around at the little workbenches. They were arranged on the outside wall, so that each would be illuminated by a window. Through the window was only a view of solid blue. “This doesn’t look much like a weather station to me. Where are the moisture accumulators? Where’s the rainbow separator? I mostly worked delivery, but even I can tell you that this is all wrong.”
“It’s a different science,” Rarity cut in, before Rainbow could go on. “It’s closer to the way unicorns regulate Canterlot’s weather. Simply and elegantly.”
“You mean boring,” Rainbow said. “No passion to it, just the same rain or the same sun day after day.”
“Griffons didn’t even have that in Accipio,” Twilight muttered. “All we really have to do is make it warmer. I’m guessing we can put one of these gems into the projector in the other room, then… it’ll come back on?”
“I like this one,” Pinkie Pie said, flouncing over with a bright yellow crystal covered in spines. “It looks like sunshine. We could use some sunshine.”
“Anypony have a better idea?”
Only these two had joined Twilight in the gem room—the others seemed to be setting up camp in the projection room.
“Okay, Pinkie. But be very gentle. The instant it seems like something is going wrong, we take it out again.”
Pinkie Pie was already out of the room by the time she finished speaking, settling the crystal into its waiting receptacle.
Twilight tensed, afraid that nothing at all would happen. That fear was in vain. The entire tower was instantly illuminated with bright blue, pouring in from where they’d entered down the empty central shaft around the stairs. Where it struck the condenser it was transformed to smooth, warm yellow, before being refracted up the structure of the tower itself.
Her friends all turned to stare, some of them making satisfied sounds as the warmth washed over them. Warm it certainly was—at least compared to the subzero nightmare outside. Not too far away, Twilight could hear the sound of ice cracking and shifting. Like they’d just made the ground itself angry.
“Well I’ll be,” Applejack muttered. “Got it on your first try.”
That was about when the door behind her exploded outward, and a torrent of water poured in.
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Griffons won't be that stupid as to let themselves be taken hostage
Sadly, they didn't take into account a few centuries worth of snowfall turning into snowmelt.
Okay not the chapter i was exoecting but interesting.
And yeah i fear with will come back and bite them.
8883395
Well, they were stupid enough to try something on the ponies, so I have no doubt they are stupid enough for this.
8883412
You act like Diplomatic Loopholes aren't an extremely common part of diplomacy that happens all the time.
The Griffons aren't so stupid as to not figure out that living on land that is only livable because of the Equestrians is a trap
Yeah, it didn't warm fast enough to become steam...
8883412
Does it even matter if they see it's a trap? It seems like the only other option at this point is war with Equestria, as the only other place on the planet unaffected by the eruption threatened to eat them if they went there.
Not to mention the fact that, even if there were another part of the world unaffected, does anyone really think whoever lived there would be willing to allow conquerors who've already proven themselves untrustworthy to settle there?
whoops... forgot about the jokulhlaup...
8883455
8883426
8883412
This isn't even a trap. You can probably look up that the Empire is kept warm by the Crystal Heart in, like, every tourist guide. Calling it a trap, or even "tricking" them is far-fetched because it's an obvious trade-off that you shouldn't attack the people who maintain survivable living conditions.
I can still see the Griffons "fall" for this "trick" because of their moon-sized arrogance and unwillingness to think further than their own personal needs in any situation.
8883426
Yeah, and using those loopholes instead of upholding the faith another country has placed in yours actively undermines trust, relations and the possibility of future cooperation. That's why shit's so fucked right now, both in the story and in real life. Even corporations are guilty of exploiting as many loopholes as they can, which actively screws up the economy.
Hey, the mane six!
That's a surprisingly devious way of using the power of love and friendship. Clever, though -- if the only barrier keeping the arctic from swallowing your land is at least a significant majority of people being joyful and amicable at any given time, you really aren't going to want to go to war.
Well, all that snow had to go somewhere.
I like this crystal weather station network idea. It's neat world-building.
Figures. There was a lot of snow out there.
Of course, the Crystal Empire safety net relies on gryphons understanding its magic and why it should contain their marauding tendencies. But gryphons have so far shown rather ignorant of Equestrian magic, and condescending of what little they believe to know.
It would not surprise me if they scoff at the idea of the Crystal Heart using the power of love to shield its Empire and believe it to merely a magical artifact they can capture and control. Which they might then proceed to attempt, only to have everything fall to pieces because the ensuing slaughter and/or enslavement of the Crystal Empire shuts down the Heart.
8883531
8883559
The only way to keep them halfway honest is to hope their survival instinct trumps their greed.
How messed up is that?
8883559
well honestly it wouldn't necessarily come ot that. with the crystal heart you could pacify an entire enemy force 100% non lethally. use its light to make the entire army too high on good feels to even prode the gryphon next to them.
Now we just have to wonder if the Griffins will even be willing to take the land. I’m sure the smarter of them will realize this makes them have to have dependence on Equestria, and I’m sure they won’t take it. Sure it is manipulative, but it’s better than the ponies just saying “here’s this shit land, now figure it out yourselves.” It’s an underhanded kindness, but at least it is kindness. Something that, more and more, seems like foreign concept to the griffons, too focused on “honor” and “pride” instead.
The Griffons will not go for this.
8883783
It's fine if they don't. That's just more land for the Crystal Empire to reclaim, and more land for Equestria to use as a whole if that winds up being the case.
Geez, don't tell me this is Equestria's official response to the gun shenanigans. I have to assume the mane six's expedition set off prior to the Griffonstone situation, or perhaps during it. Because if this is all they could think to do, then the ponies are just a bunch of milquetoast children who are certain to be conquered entirely.
8883861
Yes, this was already in motion.
When Equestria discovers that, we'll know.
8884031
That's a relief. Excellent chapter, by the way. I didn't think the Mane Six would even feature in this.
Hey, didn’t expect to see them!
Digging for ancient control centers in the frozen north? Is this actually a prequel to Message in a Bottle?
8883426
They have doubts about the potency of magic. They'll probably think the land is naturally stable. Except for the emperor and velar.
8883530
In the end such mistrust and manuvering bites everyone in the ass.
8883412
The emperor and velar understand the power of magic. It won't slip past them. And I doubt they'll just send every griffon. It'd be a good place to settle vengeance though. Cut them all down if they get in the way.
8883531
You don't go to war. You keep playing the game. What's their move?
8883559
I'm surprised the crystal empire are so willing to take the griffon problem from equestria's hands so quickly. It's not like the cold's going to instantly slaughter the griffons. They'll probably push in and do some amount of damage before they die.
8883641
If I were the emperor I would send vengeance up there. Get them out of the way. Perhaps establish some sort of trade route to get the food back to new accipio. I dont think theyll just abandoned new accipio after all the work they put into it. Remember, he knows the equestrians are shifty in diplomacy too. The other griffons wouldn't see it but he will.
8883783
The emperor can throw vengeance in there.
8883861
I was assuming this was a response to the slave thing. The weapons thing would be tantamount to war.
The equestrians are pulling off a deception much like the griffons' slave loophole.
Only more legal and more genocidal.
I wonder what starlight would think about this knowing that her people can pull off a "griffon" trick that is possibly even more devious and unethical even if it is for the interest of national security?
She's seen both sides. And as this goes on they're paradoxically starting to look more similar to each other.
8884181
I disagree. From what I'm seeing, there is no deception in the works -- as far as I can tell, the Equestrians are simply planning on relocating the griffons. This is not really something you can do on the sly, and certainly not without the people being relocated knowing about it. There isn't a great deal of deception in going up to people and informing that you're going to make them pack up and live somewhere else unless they do a certain thing.
Unethical? Perhaps. That's a separate argument, and I want to see more of the Equestrians' actual plans before I pass judgement on what they're doing. But ethical or unethical, this looks to be a rather different beast from the griffons' acts of semantic acrobatics.
Are they? The ponies of Equestria are going to have to sink to very low depths before they can be genuinely considered as bad as a civilization based on profound classism, barely concealed racism, mass slavery and imperialism that only seems to value other cultures insofar as it can enslave them.
8884130
Interesting idea to toss Vengeance away. Then again, there’s the old saying. “Keep your friends close...”
8884194
It's a bit more different and a bit too early yes, but I don't think the equestrians intend to tell the griffons that there's a bomb under their feet. At least not until they've settled. All the griffons will know at the start is that the land is fertile.
And the motivations of course will help determine how ethical it is. What will trigger the heart to stop? If the motivation is simply to prevent a war and will only be used in self-defense then it's no more unethical than the deterrence provided by a nuclear weapon. Though there would be problems since the griffons are skeptical on the power of magic. Deterrence doesnt work if the griffons cant see how threatening the situation really is. Makes me wonder if some of the more hawkish ponies are daring the griffons to raise the gun. If the equestrians are planning to use the heart to force their version of morality under penalty of genocide, then it's quite unethical. The griffons' loophole and deception was just to keep their slaves. Though I do admit I did argue that the griffons had the threat of suicidal violence to help deter the equestrians from acting on the slaves.
I never said they were equal but they are both attempting to influence each other via morally dubious methods. For all the moral failings starlight sees in the griffons i honestly doubt equestria's plan would escape her attention unnoticed. This is quite a gray and gray story. Different shades but still gray and gray.
8884269
It helps secure the emperor's power and provides equestria and the emperor a nice clean way to dispose of those nasty hawkish griffons that might rain on the diplomacy game.
Magic? But magic doesn't exist! It was the weather.
8884283
I don't see it quite so greyish.
Accipio are hostile to every free sapient species on the planet. They see other species as either "Currently slaves" or "To be slaves". They see other nations as "A source of slaves", and the only reason they haven't invaded and enslaved all of pony-kind is because Equestria is too strong for Accipio to subjugate. Equestria would be considering them actively hostile, and would remain constantly ready for war at any moment.
Yet for some reason, Equestria still held out their hand when total death was approaching the griffins, and said "We will save you". They had some pretty simple demands for it. "No more slaves of our species", and "No guns". It doesn't matter the loopholes they could find. This is what Equestria asked in return for saving their lives, and actively helping the griffins survive.
Within bare months Accipio has already willfully broken those two demands. They've taken Equestria's helping them and spat in their face.
I'm not really seeing the grey here. Frankly, if Equestria was doing the pragmatic thing, upon discovering the volcano they'd have kicked the military into high gear, blockaded Equestria's borders, and let the griffins burn. Accipio made their bed, let them sleep in it.
But now that they're in Equestria, and have proven to be deceitful and willing to go back on dealings via loopholes, Equestria must find a way to contain them, and the damage they are going to cause. Because it's obvious now that they're not just going to play nice and be thankful.
8884130
Do they understand though? Remember that Accipian ponies are all crippled in the development of their natural talents. Given the immense advantages of a well trained earth pony farmer or pegasus weather manager, that sounds more like they have no idea of the raw potential of their slaves.
8884349
I want to say gray and gray. It's hard to cast the griffons in even a neutral light since they seem to be a fusion of the negative aspects of ancient societies while equestria is obviously a modern society. But there is some complexity within the emperor, velar, and even the recent slave-master and pony slave relationship depicted (albeit this one was out of ignorance) not to mention the sincere attempt to solve the griffonstone gun problem. Perhaps, the griffons are more complex than we see. Very, very flawed of course, but not complete monsters.
I was thinking about this in a "he who fights monsters" sort of way.
I guess it depends on the person whether necessity in itself makes an action ethical or not. If this was a case of preempting war.
And there's also the issue of how equestria intends to influence the griffons with the heart. Do they only want to stop them from preparing and waging war? Simple containment? Deterrence? Or do they want to fundamentally and forcefully change their culture with the threat of destruction. Holding them hostage as applejack says.
If it was the second case then that could arguably be worse than the griffons attempts at holding their slaves. The guns were vengeance's idea. Not sanctioned by the ruling party.
And if I recall correctly, the griffons were accepted out of pragmatism. Ignoring their calls would have resulted in a war out of sheer desperation.
8884427
Well at the very least velar should suspect about the potency magic given what he's seen of their technology. The emperor should realize that there are some sort of strings attached given his wariness of pony diplomacy.
Unless this land is what the equestrians would trade for the pony slaves. Then, they're walking into a trap.
8884429
Whether you want that or not, it's not really the case. This "deception" relies on the Griffons being totally unwilling to inform themselves about their living conditions in any serious way and disregarding the ponies as anything but a resource existing for their convenience.
8884181
8884194
"Oh no! They're offering us more fertile land than the one we're currently sitting on, in return for not treating them like crap!"
How... devious..?
Thing is, the way the ponies talk about it, it's not even planned to relocate anyone by force. It's a bargain. They can come up there to live in a nice place, but then they can't do horrible things to the ponies or the climate literally stops being nice.
Any pressure to go there because Newcippio is iolated is a result of the Griffons' own deceptions beforehand. Expecting the ponies to just roll over, or to go back to doing things like they did before the Griffons showed they can't be trusted, would only prove their beliefs that ponies are a resource to be exploited right.
8884584
Applejack already said the whole plan is to trick them. Make them agree to take the land while they quietly place the noose around their neck. She already questioned its ethics. It will take advantage of their arrogance yes. But the land is a goldmine that no one would refuse and they will have no prior knowledge to the threat it has. It is deception.
We just dont know how it's going to be packaged to them. When the griffons will know. If they ever will know. And what are the conditions for the heart to stop. The whole point is to get all or most of the griffons to a position where the equestrians can wipe everyone in the land, the men, the women, the children, and their slaves if they break whatever condition the heart places on them.
Personally, I think it a genius move. All part of the politics of trying to control each other and fighting fire with fire.
But in terms of ethics? We don't know what conditions the equestrians will destroy the griffons for. Will it only be used in self-defense? Or will it be used to subjugate the griffons utterly?
8884679
What threat? Literally the only threat the land has comes from the gryphons. As long as they don't attack the Crystal Empire, they can live however they please. That's it. Every single threat, noose, whatever you want to call it comes from the gryphons. The Equestrians can't do jack squat to the gryphons without also destroying the Crystal Empire.
You're going to have to be a bit more specific in the ethical concerns here, because "we're letting you live in this fertile land protected by a magical item in your neighbouring empire that responds very badly to death and slavery, so as long as you don't go on pillaging sprees everyone's good" isn't much of an ethical concern.
8884679
8884727
Yes, I'm sure the ponies will never tell the Griffons, even though the entire supposed trick in question hinges on them not doing something the ponies don't want them to do. No. If this is to work, they need to be told at some point, and any Griffon with a brain should be ready to look into how the ponies keep their city warm up there in the first place. If they don't, they're even more ignorant than I initially thought, and that's saying something.
I get the desire to see balance. I really do, believe me I do. But unless a character comes forward saying they plan on having the option to murder all the Griffons rather than everyone up there dying together because the birds wanted to play conqueror so badly, then this is more like offering solar cars to people desperate for cars in the hopes they won't blow up the sun and doom everyone.
Now, if Equestria actually lies to them—saying this new land isn't connected to the Heart, before saying it is when the Griffons settled there and aren't likely to leave again—then it becomes highly unethical.
8884727
They're not giving the land out of friendship. They're giving it to give themselves space and better control the griffons.
It's a good plan don't get me wrong. The equestrians play politics good. It's pragmatic.
If they're threatening to kill all the griffons in self defense then fine. Thats no different from nuclear deterrence. If they're threatening to kill them unless they change their society then that's a bit more probrematic. Griffon norms are barbaric to equestrian norms. Will they be forced to "reform"? If that is the plan is the threat of destruction proportionate to the evils that are contained solely within their society? We have to wait and see how the land is packaged and presented.
It's still funny that the equestrians are passing the griffon problem to the crystal empire though.
8884737
It would be a lie by omission. You tell the griffons about the bomb in the last minute when they invested too much to leave. It has the same effect as outright lying.
Again we have to see how it's packaged.
I suppose the "moral" way of doing this is to tell them about the threat beforehand. The griffons know they have the rewards and the bomb. The equestrians have exclusive control of it. Its a tightly bound treaty. Anything they say goes. Anything the griffons do afterwards is on them. Of course they would never accept it which is why this is the plan. Well, maybe the emperor might accept. He wants to survive.
8884799
The Equestrians aren't threatening to kill the gryphons. They're trying to find a place the gryphons can live in a location where they can:
A: live comfortably in fertile lands and
B: are technically out of Equestrian lands and so don't have to follow Equestrian laws but
C: keeps the gryphons from invading their lands and looting and enslaving their populace because
D: doing so would destroy their new home. This is not a button the Equestrians can press. This is not something they can use as a threat. The survivability of the Northern lands would be entirely up to the gryphons.
Yet what you're saying is that Equestria doesn't have the right to demand the gryphons don't invade their lands and enslave their people because it would go against gryphon culture. The gryphons were about to die in their homeland. The Equestrians extended a hoof in friendship, offering them safe refuge in their own lands and asked solely not to use this land as a staging ground for invasion and for the release of ponies the Accipians have. That's it. They asked not to be invaded and enslaved. That doesn't sound like a particularly cruel or unethical demand to me. Yet, the gryphons have shown they can't adhere to these simple terms, but rather than start a war, the Equestrians are going out of their way to find a new, even more comfortable place for the gryphons to live, and the only caveat is that the gryphons... can't just mindlessly plunder and enslave their neighbours. Something they already pretended to agree to but apparently can't be trusted to uphold.
I mean hell, if the response to (purely theoretical because they've been pretty chill) Syrian refugees causing mass riots was "okay, clearly you're not happy in Europe. How about Hawaii instead?" I'm pretty sure a lot of people would get rather angry that we'd be rewarding the rioters. And yet that's essentially what Equestria is doing. Sure, there is the additional caveat that said refugees would be suicidal to start trouble when next door to main continent America and squatting on their land, but would we honestly blame either Europe or America for the resulting smackdown?
8884799
The Empire is part of Equestria.
8884799
You sure about that? They've got a lot of economic pressure. Equestria has withdrawn other support, because the Griffons aren't trustworthy, I might add. Yes, it's about how they're going to tell it to the Griffons. So far I have not seen enough evidence to think Applejack and Twilight aren't being unfair towards their own side this chapter.
By the way, if it turns out it's going to be "Oh, and if you try to enslave us, we're all going to die" then I'd still have a hard time feeling sorry for them.
Have never been so simultaneously excited for a story to update, but so dreading the idea of seeing the comments section.
8884964
Not as such. In pretty much every case it's been mentioned, be it comic or show, it's always been in the context of an independent state. Now you can make an argument that since Cadance is on the throne, and Cadance is adopted family to Celestia, the practical power is Equestrian, but politically speaking they're independent.
8885065
Nothing spices up a comment section like a good old morality debate.
8884884
I didn't intend to justify slavery or raiding. I think it's better to say that there is potential and opportunity for equestria to abuse the heart and influence the griffons beyond the intended purpose of self-defense and de-escalation. And using the threat of destruction for influence beyond self-defense shouldn't be ethical.
In my personal point of view the equestrians are just playing the game the griffons are playing. Ethics and morality do not apply in times of crisis.
Pragmatism is what gets things done. And the equestrians are playing masterfully.
8885065
Why's that?
8885148
Well, not quite. They hosted the Equestria Games, where Ponyville, Cloudsdale and Griffonstone all competed, for example. They also hosted the talks between Equestria and Maretonia. Cadance was there at the Grand Equestria Pony Summit too. They are part of Equestria politically, probably a protectorate or vassal state, either way not fully independent.
8885065
It's mostly me isn't it?
8885148
Sombra's rule wasn't considered a rebellion and the war sequence in the alternate history starlight created wasn't either so yeah, the crystal empire looks like a distinct political entity.
8885199
Griffonstone appears to be a separate entity too considering they have a representative at the school. It looks like events aren't restricted to nations. Perhaps the kingdom of equestria is distinct to the land of equestria. Countries tend to be one species affairs (exception equestria). And crystal ponies seem to be distinct enough from normal ponies to have their own country.
8885165
But they can't abuse the Crystal Heart. The only way to use the Crystal Heart to harm the gryphons is to destroy it, and that would destroy the Crystal Empire as well, which Equestria will never do. A threat you can't act on is pointless.
8885199
Morality debates can get heated pretty quickly.
8885243
Did I really read the chapter wrong?
They don't have selective control of the crystal heart?
My whole argument is rendered moot at this point.
If that's true though the freaken crystal ponies must be incredibly, INCREDIBLY pissed off at equestria right now.
The equestrians just passed on their cold war to them.
Though I suppose yeah, the threat of such complete mutual destruction between the two might yield better relations in the interest of survival.
True thumbs up to the equestrians (who are still assholes for screwing over the crystal ponies so throughly).
8885344
If the Griffons don't want it, the Crystal Ponies get that fertile land.
If the Griffons attack Equestria, they'll be dragged into that war anyway. Not like they'll stop just because these ponies are shiny.
The Crystal Ponies collectively owe their princess and prince, Twilight's group, and Spike their freedom from slavery. I strongly suspect slavery polls really badly with them. In fact, could be they approached Equestria with the plan in the first place.
Could be that Equestria... isn't trying to screw over anyone with this.
8885451
No, Equestria isnt one to screw with their allies. That is interesting though. They passed serious risks to the crystal ponies.
I doubt griffons could have attacked the crystal empire while they are busy fighting equestria either. But there's a serious risk to the heart now.
But then yes, this is a good opportunity for de-escalation and actual peace because the stakes are so much higher and the consequences more unacceptable than before (at least until that gun thing is addressed).
Even better, they could "exchange" the land for the pony slaves. They want to get them on the land right? You can kill two birds with one stone.
8885487
I wonder if that's a saying in Accipio.
Probably not in an effective way, true. Then again, they might've tried anyway. Not like the Griffons are lacking in overblown pride.
8885199
You and minibox refusing to shut up about what I can only assume is a Politics major you both regret and feel the need to justify by cross-examining the politics on display in magical pony fanfiction, mostly.
And the part where you both feel the need to involve everyone in the conversation, for which a perfect example is the fact that you're talking to me in the same comment as a laundry list of other back-and-forths, thereby massively increasing the odds by which I will see the rest of your lame debate and find myself dragged into it.