Gina stumbled back from the flash, expecting to be consumed in a moment of terrible agony—and she found she was still alive. She blinked, still feeling the heat, before she realized what had happened. Isabel had conjured a wall of gray magic, separating the two of them from the flames. She grinned at the unicorn, nodding her appreciation—but there wasn’t exactly a chance to relax. The air was filling with heat, and smoke rose all around them. It wouldn’t take long before they couldn’t breathe.
“I don’t know how long I can manage this, mistress!” Isabel called, her voice high and panicked. She had her back to the wall of the Lapwing, and seemed to be trembling. Gina couldn’t exactly blame her for that.
“We need a way out!” Gina called back. They couldn’t climb up to the deck, even if they somehow could make it through the flames. If Gideon was willing to destroy one of Gaius’s ships and murder one of his imperators, then surely he would make sure he finished the job.
If they couldn’t go up, that left them only one direction. “I need you to tear open a hole!” she shouted, pointing at the deck beside them. “You can get on my back, and… I’ll glide us down!” It would be a desperately difficult task with the two of them… and she would have to leave Hogarth behind. Hopefully they would consider a powerful minotaur who hadn’t seen their murder worth the price of keeping alive.
“I’ll… try…” Isabel muttered, shaking all over. “I won’t be able to do both spells at once. The fire might get closer to us. You should look away so you don’t burn your eyes.”
Smoke had filled the air already, though it didn’t seem to be intruding past Isabel’s barrier. At least, it hadn’t yet. Gina turned away from the flames, and braced herself for the heat.
She was unprepared for the violence of its assault. Her feathers and fur seemed to wilt at the wave that struck her, so hot that she started to sway on her claws. It burned, but she had nowhere to flee. She wanted to break something, to tear something apart, to take Gideon by the throat and use his blood to put out the fire.
But she could do none of that.
A few moments later, the wood splintered from in front of her. Isabel had made an opening, fraying at the edges of the planks. It was barely large enough for her, certainly not big enough for both of them to go at the same time.
What was worse, the Lapwing had started to fall. Slowly at first, though if they stayed aboard much longer they’d be slammed into the ceiling.
I survived the end of house Purity. I’m going to survive this. Gina shoved her way through the opening, ignoring the shards of wood as they stuck her in limbs and chest. The pain was irrelevant compared to what would be coming for her if she failed.
She spread her wings on the other side, waiting as close as she could. “On my back!” she called, glancing back desperately. The Lapwing was drifting away, further and further by the moment, and she was in far too much pain to fly over.
A second later, Isabel tumbled past her into the void, missing her by feet.
Gina wasn’t a warrior—females were not trained in combat. But that didn’t mean she couldn’t fly. Gina ignored her pain, ignored her shock, and dove after her plummeting slave.
She could hear Isabel’s terrified voice, screams and pleading as she fell rapidly through the air. She’d started tumbling, as many a non-flier did in their last moments before impact.
Gina reached her about half a mile above the ground. She matched her speed as best she could, wrapping her claws around her. She took a hoof to the side of the head, another to the ribs, but finally the pony stopped spinning. Gina pulled into the tightest arc she could—but it wasn’t going to be enough. They were going to hit.
Gina had open ground, trees, and a pond to choose from. She chose the latter, angling them just slightly. A few seconds later, they struck with an explosion of water.
The danger of a hard landing into water was drowning. The impact was nearly enough to knock her unconscious instantly—though she hadn’t been going nearly as quickly as a freefall from altitude. A few seconds after impact and they’d sunk all the way to the bottom, landing with a thunk in the murk.
Next came the disorientation—it was so dark, and there was so much soil in the water. Gina followed her bubbles to the surface, dragging Isabel the whole way. They surfaced together, gasping and spluttering.
Somewhere not that far away, the Lapwing finally crashed into the ground. There was an explosion—loud enough that her ears rang from it. A mushroom-cloud of fire and fuel rose into the air in front of them, stretching up and up into the sky.
One of the pony ships smashed down a few seconds later, without any more sound than the crunching of wood.
Beside her, Isabel clung to the bank, hacking and coughing into the water. Gina didn’t let her stand—didn’t let her do anything that might make them visible from the air. “Stay… low. Just… head out. We can’t let them see us…”
They waited, bruised and bloody in the water. Gina felt her strength slowly ebb away, as the chill liquid sapped it from her body. If Gideon and his monks flew down for them, they would certainly be killed. Gina couldn’t have won a fight with him even if she’d been uninjured. Poor captain Hookbeak. Maybe he and his crew had been lucky, and would’ve been taken prisoner by the monks. Somehow, she doubted it. He would know too much about Gideon’s treason.
Maybe some of his crew. They don’t deserve to die for this.
But all those lives would count for nothing compared to what would happen when word of this reached Equestria. They’d attacked Equestrian ships on the border—and destroyed at least one. Presumably, Gideon would have commandeered at least one of the others.
Gina rolled onto her back, trying to get a good look through the smoke. She could make out two outlines, now flying together for griffon space. Many small specks seemed to be flying away, the other direction. Even Gideon hadn’t killed everyone.
A dark thought surfaced in Gina’s mind then, unbidden. Maybe he wants them to survive. He wants a war.
It was hard for Gina to imagine even Santiago acting that rashly—but certainly he wouldn’t have sent Gideon here without orders. No simple monk would make political decisions that might shape the two last great nations of Equus.
She lay there in the water and the cold, on the edge of delirium, until night finally came and the two pony airships vanished into the distance. No one came to investigate the crash site and see if she were really dead—but then, the explosion had been spectacular. No one could’ve survived that.
I need to get back to Gaius with what happened. As the hours passed, Gina had plenty of time to imagine the worst possible scenario—where Gideon made it back to the emperor to present his case unmolested. He would lie about the encounter, tell the emperor that they’d been attacked under the flag of truce, and Gina herself brutally murdered. That would inspire Accipio to war, despite their disadvantages.
Vengeance would have firearms, and no one else would. By the time the dust had settled, young Santiago would be emperor, and both nations would be ashes at his claws.
“Gina… are you still with me?”
She blinked, looking up. She wasn’t in the water anymore. Isabel had dragged her under the cover of the trees. There was a campfire a few feet away, orange light feeble against the encroaching night. She glanced down, and realized many of her little wounds had been bandaged. While she had been on the edge of exhaustion, Isabel had worked. Unity to thank that I brought you with me, Isabel. I’d be dead in that explosion without you.
“Ye-yeah, I’m alive.” She sat up, stretching her wings one at a time. She didn’t feel the pain of any broken bones, whatever that was worth. Just battered from the impact. “Did you… see if anything survived the crash?”
“Not… not on the Lapwing,” Isabel muttered. “The explosion… it all burned.”
“The pony ship didn’t burn,” Gina replied, though she still didn’t try standing. Even slight twitches made her feel sore. “We should see if there’s anything in there.”
“Corpses,” Isabel answered. Gina could see her across the campfire now. She had a few bandages too, though not nearly as many as Gina. Her fur was scorched near her cutie mark, and the scorchmarks had swallowed the brand completely. “Don't know how many. Should've been more. Maybe the rest were inside.”
“And you didn’t want to go in,” Gina finished for her. “I can’t blame you. Tomorrow I can… I can go and look. We’ll need supplies for the journey back to New Scythia.”
Isabel nodded, apparently relieved. She wasn’t a warrior, any more than Gina was. Even ponies raised in civilization had weaker stomachs than proper birds. “You may want to consider another option,” she whispered. Deferential and submissive, despite all they had endured together.
If we get out of this alive, I’ll have to free you after all. Or free her in all but name—actually casting Isabel out of her house after the unicorn had saved her life from certain death would be a poor way to repay the debt.
“We need to report this to the emperor,” Gina replied, leaning against the trunk of a nearby tree. She hissed as she inhaled, but at least she wasn’t bleeding anymore. “I don’t know if there’s… any way to keep the peace after this. But we have to try. If Gideon gets a chance to lie to Gaius unopposed, there will be war for certain.”
Isabel nodded, gesturing vaguely out into the darkness. “If we… if we stick around here, there’s a good chance the ponies will investigate. They lost a warship, after all… maybe they’ll want to look for survivors. There aren’t any from their ship… but there’s us. We could let them take us to Accipio.”
Convince a pony warship to take them. After coming out to investigate the destruction of one of their own, then discovering a ship full of corpses. The odds didn’t seem good.
“Waiting… feels wrong. If we sit here long enough, both countries might destroy each other.”
“Maybe,” Isabel said, always deferential. “But it’s a long walk to New Scythia, and most of it through desert. Do you know how many miles it is?”
Gina thought back to the last time she’d glanced at Hookbeak’s maps. “Maybe… a hundred? Seventy-five? Between those numbers.”
“Do you feel well enough to fly?”
Gina spread one of her wings, gazing at the warped wax. At least a dozen feathers looked like they’d been destroyed by the flames. “Maybe… a short distance. I know I can glide because we’re both still alive.”
“You shouldn’t try now,” Isabel said. “I can tell from looking at you, you must’ve hit your head on the water coming down. I cast every healing spell I know… hopefully that’s enough. In the morning we can see. If you can fly… you should leave me here. I can find my way back to New Scythia through the ponies eventually. And if you can’t… we can make the trip together. However you think we should, mistress.”
But the undertone to that was obvious. And you know my suggestions are better than walking. They were better. The question was: would Gina even survive until morning to try them?
I have to. Gaius needs to know what happened here. He needs the truth. Even if we have to work with the ponies to bring it back to him.
“I’m going to… try and rest,” she muttered, flopping back down into the dirt. “Don’t let anything eat us in the meantime.”
Well, saw that coming at least. I hope when Accipio actually meets a pony warship, there's some satisfying payoff. Looking forward to more.
Lets hope those two make it in time.
And let the battle's begin in the comment's once more. It has been going quite a lot.
I find myself gripped with every word I read in this story. I find myself wondering more often than I probably should what will the fate of Gryphonstone be? Will they rile for full independence with their new friends and capabilities? What will become of Gilda? Is she a descendant of House Endurance? What cards does House Vengeance have up their sleeves? I've so many questions. It's hard to wait one week at a time for such an amazing plot.
It's a bit rough reading this right now. The last chapter still leaves a bad taste in my mouth, and the sooner the story pivots away from what happened, the better. The more one thinks about it, the more the whole scenario unravels. It doesn't help that Santiago's plan is seemingly doomed to failure and makes no sense.
Also, Isabel seems to have shields and destructive TK. It's a good thing none of the unicorns on those ships knew how to do that. It's kind of telling that untrained, uneducated slaves would make better fighters than whatever these ponies were.
I wonder if they're going to be found by a patrol looking for the broken ship first, or whether they're going to try and move and stumble across a pony settlement. Either way, we may be approaching a nice eye opener for Isabel soon.
I certainly do hope that Gaius is smart enough to realize that what he will be told can't be the whole truth. However, what ever he may think, I fear the choice has been taken from him, as a lot of other griffons will probably be crying for war.
Unfortunately, a war is not something either nation can afford, they rarely are, especially when both nations have problems with their crops. At this point, they need farmers and food, not soldiers and weapons.
Also, I can't wait to see how Isabel and Gina as well, will react once they get a taste of actual pony society. Same reason why I can't wait to get back to Starlight and Velar and see how they are doing.
8939214
How fortunate that Isabel was raised in "civilization", i.e. as a slave to racist Griffons, instead of in barbarism, aka as a free pony in Equestria.
Joking aside, Isabel is apparently one of, if not the best spellcaster in Newcippio. And between her and Starlight, my money is firmly on Chipmunk Cheeks Glimmer Glam.
1. Yay, a glimmer of hope
2. It stuns me that the griffons can’t conceive of the idea that maybe the son of the leader of House Vengeance might want to instigate a war with “inferior beings” and take the throne from the bird that killed his father. Has there never been any betrayal in the history of Scythia?
8939324
The problem with that is it makes enslaved pony spellcasters ubiquitous. Take that to its logical extension, and there's no reason for Griffons to be as ignorant of pony magic as they've been shown to be. And really, it shouldn't take "the best spellcaster in Newcippio" to be able to use Telekinesis.
Honestly, if you consider the implications of just about anything in this story, it kind of falls apart.
8939359
Oh that makes sense actually. So far we've only seen Isabel cast a shield and a concussion blast. Decent, but not exactly advanced magic by Equestrian standards. To know that they actually have to learn, and you don't want learned slaves.
8939390
We're kind of forced to assume it is advanced magic. Otherwise, the average unicorn might be expected to know them, which doesn't jive with the previous chapter.
It's not just the unicorns. Unless Pegasi slaves are universally grounded, their ability to interact with clouds and the weather should be a known fact. And yet even educated griffons think weather control is a myth.
8939406
There's a difference between walking on clouds and weather control. The former we know even gryphons can do (that's been a thing since Gilda's introduction) but weather control, especially Equestria level weather control, has an entire industry behind it to the point where an entire city specializes in it. If you lack said industry and the education that comes with it, you're not going to have much in the way of weather control.
Ditto for the magic. Isabel is a highly skilled unicorn mage... by Accipian standards. But that just means she knows more than the average Equestrian laypony, not that her knowledge even comes close to those who undertook an Equestrian study of magic.
8939437
Honestly, it depends on what your headcanon is. If there's a secret technique to moving or busting clouds, then it's possible that weather control could be a myth. But if it's something a pegasus can do inherently, then small-scale weather control (on the scale of a farm or village) would definitely be a thing. The instant a pegasus runs into a cloud and either disperses it or pushes it, the implications would be clear.
As for the magic, that's possible, but very unsatisfying. Creating barriers and hitting things with magic are such simple extensions of TK that I find it hard to believe that every unicorn doesn't know how to do so, even if they choose not to.
8937654
The problem there is that once you start discarding pieces of data to fit your theories, you can justify anything at all. Why not go the other way? Couldn't we also take this as in indication that - as the element of magic - Twilight's power is so vast that it ignites the air around her when she loses control and it is only the general near-invulnerability of ponies that keeps her from killing herself? After all... consider Tirek. He'd stolen power from all Equestria and from Discord. Discord apparently outpowered Celestia and Luna put together. So... Twilight + Cadence was more power than all of Equestria. Cadence has never shown gargantuan super powers past a big shield and powering up Shining Armor - who'd already been drained by Tirek. Ergo, Twilight is more powerful than the rest of Equestria put together.
Or maybe she was replaced by a variant changeling during that episode since they change their appearances in bursts of flame.
Or maybe any of a hundred other things. I can justify anything with "Maybe".
As for Big Macintosh with the cake... Perhaps he knew that it was unbalanced, likely to collapse on it's own, and was nervous about trying to hold it steady? Climbing a mountain made him tired? How tired was he already? How much work does Big Macintosh do anyway? The usual estimate for apple picking is that one worker can harvest four to five trees per day - and that's seasonal-labor workdays not eight-hours-a-day days either. So... Big Mac may very well be doing the work of a hundred men or more on many days.
Now if you want nightmarish combat scenarios... Take Rarity. She certainly isn't noted for her incredible magical ability, her range may not be more than thirty or forty feet, and her total lifting capacity no more than a hundred pounds or so - but she can move dozens of objects at once at high speed and precision and can apparently sense the location of objects around her since she can have items interact precisely without looking at them. Now you can think about "Sewing Needles" and "Eyes", because I'd rather not.
As a guideline... people underperform all the time, and there can be many reasons for it. They generally can't go beyond their limits without serious difficulties though. "Hysterical Strength" has it's price.
8939714
But if Twilight is more powerful than all of Equestria then we have to assume based on the season 5 finale that Starlight equals Twilight who equals Equestria. So how come one unicorn, who is not an element (that we know of) can match the element of Magic as an Alicorn?
Just a piece of info you seem to be missing in your calculations.
8939714
The only valid test we have so far is waiting to see if a character makes use of a skill under a situation that's not played for laughs. For example, Pinkie Sense. That could've been a one-time joke, like her appearing in a mirror, but she used it during a stressful, dangerous time (dodging falling construction beams while saving workers). Compare that to Fluttershy reappearing on the opposite side of where she left (Fake It 'til You Make It), which she has yet to prove to be able to under a situation like combat.
That whole thing doesn't work out anyway. The most logical theory is, Tirek couldn't make use of his victims' full abilites, or Discord's magic alone would've been enough. Any other way you end up with something along Tirek<Discord>all the princesses=Tirek+Discord+all of Equestria. Makes no frikkin' sense.
Nope.
derpicdn.net/img/view/2012/9/2/88386__safe_apple+bloom_applejack_big+macintosh_granny+smith_dragonshy_animated_earth+pony_male_pony_stallion.gif
This is just one example of inconsistent cartoon physics in the show. The thing is, if you write a serious story, you need to make a choice about what your characters can and can't do.
Have you watched the 2003 Teen Titans cartoon, by any chance? Characters there change shape and size for comedic effects all the time, but they don't do it in serious fight scenes, and the viewer shouldn't assume this is something they can do deliberately.
And yet, Rarity is actually rather fond of using punches and kicks instead of her magic when things get serious. Something she's really good at. Many writers seem to forget that.
Again, I don't disagree, I'm just saying Cartoon Physics and Rule of Funny are in full effect in the show itself, and we should be aware that they are. Especially the author, who needs to decide. Either Unicorn(!) Twilight had a Wolverine-like healing factor because she took a piano to the head and was fine seconds later, or it was a joke, she doesn't, and we shouldn't expect her doing it here.
Good to know that pair is not down yet.
Well at least there is a chance of getting off a warning.
8939214
Santiago has a grudge against the emperor after his father was killed.
It doesn't matter who wins the war, vengeance will just finish off whoever is left standing. They just have to stay away and make sure no heat comes to them as they arm up. As for the long-term plan, they either haven't thought about it or they don't care. Defeating equestria and killing the emperor seems to be santiago's only goal in life now.
8939952
I was more addressing Gideon's part of that plan, rather than the overall scheme. Pulling it off required a lot of unlikely and highly specific circumstances that no one could have planned for or anticipated.
As for Santiago's actual plan, if what you're suggesting is true, then it still doesn't make sense. It's already a massive stretch to assume that Griffonstone could be manufacturing steel repeaters at all; even then, they couldn't realistically manufacture enough guns to actually affect the balance of power. Without those weapons, the other Griffons will get steamrolled by the Equestrians in a matter of weeks, at which point it's a largely-unarmed Vengeance vs all of Equestria.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but unless the author continues handing the griffons improbable and contrived victories, there is no win here.
8940021
I agree with you in regards to the first argument. What was the plan if Gideon was quietly brought to accipio?
But why do you assume an accipio-equestrian war would be a quick one-sided affair? Even the equestrians don't believe it will be over quickly if they have to seriously consider removing agricultural ponies and risk starvation just to fight off the griffons. They'll be pushed to the edge after their victory in the war if they don't collapse immediately afterwards. Another war with a second group of griffons with any arbitrary number of guns will certainly push the equestrians off the edge even if the equestrians still win. There won't be enough food. Simple as that. And I don't know if equestria is even aware of the griffonstone threat. Vengeance just has to make sure griffonstone isnt raided until new accipio falls.
I don't think that Santiago believes victory necessarily entails survival. Its a nice plus if he wins, but he's probably content if the world dies if it means equestria and the emperor (especially the emperor) go with it.
8940136
Better yet, what was the plan if they encountered actual resistance, rather than the untrained unprepared losers fed to them?
As for the "war", before the story started, at the height of their power and with all of their resources, infrastructure, and armament, even the Griffons weren't sure that they could take Equestria. At that point, any war between them would likely have been long, costly, and pyrrhic.
Now, they're disorganized, disarmed, and effectively without an agricultural or industrial base. Without their weapons, they have no chance for a blitzkrieg-style quick victory, and they don't have the time or resources for a sustained conflict. If the Equestrian army marched straight for New Accipio, there's little the Griffons could do to stop them besides clogging the roads with their bodies. And that's assuming that the Equestrian Heavy Hitters sit this one out. At this point, any war between the two would be a quick, one-sided affair.
As for Griffonstone, it's laughable to think the Equestrians don't know what's going on. A lot of people overlook the industrial power required to manufacture firearms like that in any kind of quantity. It would take years to build the infrastructure required to sustain the effort, and you'd never be able to hide that, much less the massive influx of raw materials required to produce those weapons. We're talking hundreds of tons of raw materials, massive machine shops and coal-driven furnaces you can see for dozens of miles. Even if Griffonstone managed to get all of that built in a couple of months, they'd never be able to hide it.
8940199
The eruption is the game changer though. And even if the griffons are disorganized and are at the back end, they still aren't pushovers. They will lose but they will still extract much blood from equestria on their way to accipio. War will spill much blood from both sides. Why would a nation risk mass starvation by removing farm workers if it had the war in the bag? Because it doesnt. The princesses know this and would prefer to avoid war if possible. I've never really known a nation that underestimated their own abilities so severely. Its possible but i doubt it. The equestrians would have skipped ultimatums and headed straight to liberation with the slave situation. If they fear a war might undo them (through its after effects and resulting starvation) then it's a valid fear. The cost of war is too high for both sides. The story wouldn't be as interesting if one side had no stakes. The whole point of long and hard diplomacy between two culturally different societies silly and pointless when actual quick, immediate, and unstoppable force would have solved the plot several chapters ago.
As for griffonstone, I must have missed something, It didn't seem equestria was even aware griffonstone was being influenced by vengeance. They must have bad spies or eyes if they didn't even see a rifle.
From a previous chapter:
Vengeance is working fast. Probably not enough to fight equestria head on. But maybe after a bloody war? Or just to make the world burn?
And if the equestrian navy did put up a fight? Santiago would still have his little war though he would have no chance to tip the scales to his favor. He flipped the table though so that counts as a win.
8940199
8940136
Not quite. The emperor doubted they could take Equestria. Out of all the Accipian birds, he's also the one realist. From the looks of it, the rest has marinated in their own jingoism so much, they can't conceive of an Equestria that can actually defend itself; the failures to conquer them before are simply due to incompetence of former leaders, not trying hard enough, or massive bad luck.
Also, let's not forget: The clash happened because of Isabel. Gina brought her pony slave along on the trip and refused to give her up, that's why the ponies decided to arrest them. That's on Gina. But Gina, like many Griffons in the story, refuses to accept any blame. If she gets back to the emperor, she'll have to explain that the clash happened because A) she brought a pony slave into Equestria, and B) she told the Equestrian captain to sod off when he was in his right to demand they give Isabel up.
So yeah, perhaps Gideon just didn't want to get arrested for the Imperator's foolishness. He wouldn't even have been there if she hadn't demanded he come along.
8940337
Yeah, i found it weird that Gideon was "planning" on this to happen even though gina threw the first punch.
I guess Gina rationalized that all this was part of Gideon's plan even though none of this would have happened if Gideon was never summoned.
Gideon really just took advantage of the situation and would rather start the war now than later.
Probably for the best. Better to expose santiago now when he's still preparing than later when he's powerful enough to play both sides and fight the winner.
8940322
They kind of are. It's pretty strongly implied that Celestia single-handedly defeated the last Griffon invasion ("It’s so easy for birds to forget Equestria’s armies never defeated us."). Without their modern weapons, there's little preventing a repeat performance, and that's not taking into account the other Immortals. And then there's Equestria's army. When the opposing force can erect barriers the size of entire cities, and lay siege to your cities with tornadoes and blizzards, and your own army is armed with spears and crossbows, you're in for a bad day.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but these are ponies. Unlike the Griffons, conquest and subjugation are not their go-to's. Using force like that is a good way to make mortal enemies of the entire Griffon race, and they're all about friendship, yo.
As for Griffonstone, I didn't say that the Equestrians know. I said it would be laughable that they wouldn't, and it is. Frankly, there's no way that Griffonstone should be producing these rifles yet, but if they were the Equestrians couldn't be missing them unless they were deaf, dumb, and blind.
8940346
Us refers to equestria as a whole. They'd have no need for armies or if the princesses can directly intervene. They're either killable, limited in combat, or prohibited from fighting if they have to actually consider STARVING their people to fight a war. Something is limiting them.
And no, reserving force and playing the "friendship" game is not even moral when members of your own species are enslaved. They won't hesitate to use harmony to combat threats to the kingdom. They won't hesitate to free their kind with whatever methods are available if it is so easy.
And vengeance are producing weapons at an alarming rate. None were smuggled from old accipio as they are new designs and locally made according to vengeance's "loophole" of the gun prohibition. At least from what we see so far.
At this point, I think we should just agree to disagree. I believe war will more or less result in mutually assured destruction. You don't. I don't want to clog up the comments in back and forth arguments of hypotheticals like in previous weeks regarding story elements totally in control of the author. Even I'm starting to dread the comments section.
8939060
I'm hoping there's a difference between coastguard and military warships. Star has been leaving the pony military very underwhelming so far.
8940619
Well, as per the author's say so, there is, but the griffins don't seem to realize it.
8940624
Look at it from their viewpoint. I doubt a militarized nation such as theirs would have such a difference. Virtually everyone is part of the militia/house guard and everyone who isn't is either military elites who probably deal with all their internal (and external) border skirmishes or the females... who can still fight if needed.
8940409
Celestia already noted that it's only ignorance of the actual situation in Accipio that has kept the tenuous peace on Equestria's side. In her conversation with Velar she blatantly tells him that if her people were aware just how many slaves the gryphons have, they wouldn't give her the choice of war. The will of Equestria's people would cry out for justice and force her hoof.
8940741
Ill rephrase equestria as celestia. She would already have taken action to free the slaves if she could have done it so easily. Any responsible ruler should if given the option. The Ultimatum is one last grasp at preserving peace since war is not desirable. I don't know how long she's keeping the situation secret from the ponies but its more or less certain she does not want to go on a crusade if she doesn't have to. The moral choice isn't always the right one.
8939822
It's important to note that that "theory" is an illustration of how you can justify anything you want once you start ignoring parts of your data. That's why it comes right after a sentence stating that. Thank you for demonstrating the point!
(My apologies, somehow this reply got misattributed).
8939826
There seem to be several parts to address here...
"The only valid test we have so far is waiting to see if a character makes use of a skill under a situation that's not played for laughs"
So do you have an objective test that everyone will agree on which can determine if a situation is being "played for laughs"? Without such a test this is simply another way of saying "I will reject data that does not fit my theory".
Next up, Twilight and Tirek.
As noted above with XP45, the "all-powerful Twilight" theory comes after "once you start discarding pieces of data to fit your theories, you can justify anything at all". It is an illustration of why you should not do that, as it can lead to any result you wish. And yes, that "result" is silly, since it was specifically chosen to demonstrate that ignoring data leads to poor results.
Your response also nicely proves the point: you are debating a "theory" that specifically ignores data that's inconsistent with itself by... pointing at some of that data that it's ignoring. Isn't that a perfect illustration of why a good theory does not ignore data?
It's also a good illustration of why it is important to reply to entire segments, rather than selecting portions of a multi-part series of examples.
Next up, Big Macintosh!
As for trying to argue about Big Macintosh... This is in the ongoing discussion of how much the ponies have to have been nerfed to fit this story. Your reply to various examples of their capabilities is to point out that Big Mac had trouble with a (large, likely unbalanced, and fragile) cake and that at one point he was tired - ignoring the two related questions of "How tired was he already? How much work does Big Macintosh do anyway?".
Rarity, of course, was brought up as yet another illustration of ponies having to be nerfed to fit this story. She's about the only example of a relatively "normal" unicorn which we have very much data on - and so here is an example of how she could permanently cripple numerous opponents at once. (If she wanted them dead her next trick might be embroidery scissors and major blood vessels in the neck - or she could go for some of her other season one tricks. I can think of at least one that would work as a death spell).
Yes, she's a talented seamstress - but wouldn't exactly the same bag of telekinetic tricks be useful to a gardener, a cook, a plumber, or in any of a hundred other professions? Or any sailor? There's no reason to consider her particularly exceptional.
And I quite agree that she prefers punches and kicks to using her magic - perhaps because maiming and killing is very very easy while magic that subdues targets with minimal injury is a lot touchier and she'd rather not maim and kill. That's the same basic reason why the police around the world are STILL looking for effective nonlethal weapons - since tasers, rubber bullets, and firehoses are sometimes ineffective and sometimes kill. It's not really relevant to the question of whether or not the ponies have been severely nerfed though. I find it hard to believe that - when they're being killed - they will refrain from fighting back. The capabilities that they've been shown to have should allow them to fight very effectively. Since that did not happen, the ponies are being severely nerfed. I'm not really sure why that seems to be a point of contention.
And for Cartoon Physics...
Yes. Cartoon physics and rule of funny are in effect in the setting. They are just as "real" as any other part of the setting. Cheese Sandwich did arrive with nothing but his saddlebags, hat, and wrap, and he did produce a tank. Other characters interacted with it, so it was as "real" as anything else in the show.
So yes; Twilight took a piano to the head with little injury (not one of the possibilities you mentioned, but the obvious answer) - which is quite consistent with the durability displayed by ponies throughout the series. Rainbow Dash kicked though four trees without destroying her bones. She crashed into the ground going fast enough to kick up enough dirt to spread it several feet deep over quite a radius. Was "rule of funny" in play in a battle scene when Maud and Pinky jumped up and ignored conservation of momentum and several other physical laws to hammer apart a huge rock in midair? Because if grim battle scenes are being "played for laughs", we can pretty much dismiss everything we're shown at whim.
8941824
I'm not sure what you are arguing for, actually. If your point is that all data should always be given the same weight, without any evaluation... then no, I disagree, and point to the fact that the show is highly contradictory itself when it comes to this. Pinkie can teleport to where Rainbow Dash will be to catch her, except inside Applejack's barn for some reason? And she can't wiggle out of the ambulance pony's restraints? Oh, and she's possibly immune to cutting weapons, because her limbs are detachable. Fluttershy can create lightning strikes by laughing evilly! That'll come in handy should they be attacked from above! And if you need cover, try to get Twilight to have a mental breakdown, since that'll spawn movable backgrounds!
derpicdn.net/img/view/2012/9/5/90400__safe_spike_twilight+sparkle_lesson+zero_animated_fourth+wall_hub+logo.gif
Of course you can try to excuse any incongruity popping up, risking ending up with something that's as silly as the sillier situations you pulled them from. Or you make a decision what your characters' baseline is, what they should and shouldn't be able to do.
Oh yeah, this will end well.
The Princess' will find out, obviously. And they are going to be pissed.
8941945
If you are not sure of what is being discussed, why did you start the discussion by objecting to a part of the initial comment? At that point you were complaining about the idea of "OP Celestia using nebulous sun powers" when no such thing had been suggested.
You then objected to me mentioning the idea that ponies were being nerfed in this story by stating that " I'd expect Maud, Rainbow, Twilight Sparkle and the rest of these characters to be more like Equestria's versions of Gideon"
Upon it being pointed out that many other ponies display similar capabilities during their appearances, you then objected that those instances were "sight gags" - thus claiming the right to ignore all data that does not fit your headcanon since you provided no way of determining what is a "sight gag" save your personal opinion.
So I provided an example of why ignoring data that didn't fit your theory led to silliness and provided an example of why even the less powerful ponies are portrayed as being extremely dangerous if they wish to be.
Your objection was that Big Macintosh had trouble balancing a cake and has been seen tired and that Rarity preferred nonlethal to lethal attacks. As I pointed out, that isn't even particularly relevant.
Your response stated "that The only valid test we have so far is waiting to see if a character makes use of a skill under a situation that's not played for laughs" - another subjective personal judgement and one easily exploded by pointing out serious situations where those abilities were displayed.
You skipped those.
You attempted to use Twilight having a piano falling on her head as an example. Even discounting the failure to consider the possibility she might not have suffered much harm from that experience, this would not fit in with "Rule Of Funny"; She was warned of falling objects by another character, the objects had a rational source, there were ongoing consequences to another character (Derpy's supervisor was upset), and - given that Spike was assisting Twilight and would probably have performed the "first aid" we even know why the bandaging would have been excessive even if the harm was minimal; he's a kid.
And now we've reached your current position - yet another version of "Any data that doesn't fit in with my predetermined conclusion should be discarded".
By your own current argument... the few data points that can be interpreted to indicate that ponies are NOT superhumanly strong, tough, and possessed of the ability to ignore quite a few physical laws (or at least the laws typical of our universe) should be discarded because most of the datapoints from the show suggest that they are functionally midrange superheroes.
I don't suggest discarding any of them. A valid theory needs to account for all the available data. apparently contradictory data simply indicates that the setting is a reasonably complicated place. For example, ponies are shown in many instances to be resistant to physical violence that would turn a human into pulp. They are, however, vulnerable to bees. This could mean that ponies are more vulnerable to living creatures, or that bees have their own magic, or any of many other possibilities. It does not mean that all the instances of ponies resisting massive damage should be ignored.
The author is quite entitled to nerf the ponies to make his story work - although it would probably be a good idea to point that out up front - but why are you so devoted to the idea that ponies should be little more than funny-looking and incompetent humans?
I guarantee that, simply by virtue of you actually existing and being able to function under the "real" laws of physics, you are immensely superior to any cartoon.
8943695
Please don't put words in my mouth.
Also, I'm aware what's being discussed. I wasn't sure what your position was. Now I know. I'm eager to see how Twilight's ability to manifest background props due to remembering Magic Kindergarten will affect future battles, which will in no ways be utterly silly.
8943736
May I point out that you started this discussion by putting words about "undefined solar powers" in my mouth? If you wish to object to a tactic, it is wise to refrain from using it yourself first.
Now let me see; Despite the intentional attempt to be silly and the reliance on a single data point rather than the majority of the evidence... Twilight has the demonstrated ability to move objects telekinetically and to transform objects. She has also shown a tendency to produce unintended magical effects under stress. Even without Equestrias blatant tendency to produce environmental special effects in response to it's residents emotions, there would be nothing at all surprising about Twilight producing the occasional prop - such as turning a water tower into a giant milk bottle.
As for what this is about, the gryphon emperor has indicated that the last gryphon invasion was defeated by "a supernatural being" that defends pony territories and that the pony armies were never a challenge. He also indicated that there are now three such beings, and the gryphons would not survive their enmity. Given that this seems almost certain to be referring to the Alicorns in general and Celestia in particular, the original hypothesis was that Celestia could have defeated the gryphons using her well-established power of controlling the movement of the sun since the show demonstrates that the sun is fairly small and that the physics of Equestria are quite different from those of our universe.
The fact that I have been somewhat bored, and have had time to respond to a long series of attempts to shift the goalposts is not relevant.
Since you have indicated that you are indeed well aware of what is being discussed, perhaps you could explain how the bit about Twilight you are now talking about is relevant to Celestia using the sun as a weapon? Or perhaps you have an alternative hypothesis for how Celestia might have defeated that Gryphons for which you can provide more support?
8945616
Actually, no. This discussion has run its course, and the tone reflects this well. Rather than waiting for more accusations or being talked down to to feed your boredom, I will bow out and allow you whatever victory you feel you can gain from this.
Good day.
8945660
thank you for being the bigger stallion in this situation, this argument has long worn out it’s welcome. Lets just agree to sit tight and hope starscribe gives a more direct answer in a upcoming chapter.
Finally
Weren't there two more Equestrian Warships? What happened to them.