Everyone seems to assume Applejack is a bigot, someone who is both homo and trans phobic. But what if the tables were turned? What if "she" was the one who had to deal with being transgender?
What would happen?
(I wrote this both to counteract the common AJ is a bigot plot, and because I felt the honesty element, would deal with this in an interesting manner)
I hope you enjoy!
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I honestly don't know what to say about this story. It's a very interesting concept, there's no way of denying that. Gender identity disorder is one of those seriously complicated issues, and best approached cautiously; which I think you did just fine.
Nice little one-shot. I absolutely love the introspection here.
... Eh. There's really nothing here. A ton of 'I' statements, disjointed thoughts, and a lot of words Applejack wouldn't normally spout, like 'cisgender', 'mental health', and 'people'.
In my opinion and thought process, If this was shoehorned in to be pony afterwards, it's disappointing. If it's meant to be truly a look at what a pony thinks when they're meant to be the other gender, then it's also lacking because it's just a thousand words and just buzzes words without giving a clear picture of a beginning, middle, or end.
I'm a trans mare and I've never bumped into anypony on this site who took issue with this fact. I've also seen more Applejack-is-a-Butch-Lesbian stories than stories in which she's a homophobe, but maybe that's due to the kind of stories I seek out - thoughtful ones, deep ones, stories with plots that can't be summed up the same way as a typical anime. I, for one, could never see a pony as thoughtful, caring and honest as Best Pony in such a light, especially after the lesson she learned about judging other ponies (or zebras) before getting to know them.
I can tell that you're nervous about this, but due to my own past experience I have to say that we create in our own hearts a lot of that hatred we see. Many of us, myself included, let the fear paint shadows on every wall until we're unable to tell shadow from true darkness. When I came out as a Fine Young Lady a few years ago I expected uncertainty or sadness or hatred, but all I received was support, apathy, and a disappointed grandma who still loves me - and that's nothing! This community was even better. There's a surprising number of like-minded individuals here, and most of the rest are supportive or accepting. Sure, you'll have your trolls and your crucifix fetishists but the majority, even of those who consider this sort of thing against their religion, are wonderful ponies who will simply read this and comment or ignore it entirely.
That said, starting off your description with "don't go starting a flame war, bra" is a good way to start a flame war.
Sad but true.
I'm about to read the story. I'll leave a more relevant comment when I'm finished.
4855085 I feel ya, you see, as I was writing this, I had decided to do it on the pov of Aj, but...I faced an issue. You see, whenever she speaks she tends to spew some "southern doo hikey".
Now, I did try to write this, in a manner more similar to what she might have said. I did, I had this plot defined, and I started writing in a southern manner. It was, well for one awful, for two, simply offensive.
Here's an excerpt:
"Ah have always wondered if my bits were in the right place, or if they were even the ones I should've had. Mah head feels all confused, sort of like if I had just gone to a rodeo, as I think...."
Well, let's just say, it didn't go over to well.
This is more of a stylistic choice. If I might try to justify myself I will say this, Once, those are her thoughts, and she isn't enunciating them, so they don't have to come with an accent. Two, she has been shown to be highly intelligent, so, I don't think that there is too much of a strech into her knowing those kind of words. Three? Well, I frankly don't see no difference between a pony and a human, in terms of humanity, sure, they don't wear clothes, and they have cutie marks, but I could have very easily put this on the EG world and not change a word.
But I concede your point, I did write this with her in mind, but I did write it the same as if I was writing a human, because I see no difference. If you're searching for a pony view on transgender ponies...I don't know how to help you, search around. Maybe you'll find something that mentions eqqus, cutie marks, etc, etc.
As for the fact that it is just a series of phrases saying "I feel this..." and "I think..." and "I wonder if...". well, that's just how I write first person, at least in this case, she isn't describing an event, she is doing an introspective on herself (that is himself), just before coming out.
Lastly ever mention of "Her" when refering to Aj in this comment, refers to him, of course, I was just thinking in canon terms.
I agree with Norm that it was just too short. Introspection is a tough matter to write about, but sadly many people believe that its just a short moment thinking without realizing what pains and reliefs introspection could bring.
Maybe one way to help improve this is to add some examples of when AJ was hurting. If we can find some events where AJ overheard or saw another pony being bullied or mocked just because they thought he or she wasn't normal, then maybe we can sympathize with AJ better.
All in all, you tried to write in introspection, and it was a good try, but there's not enough for us to really see what AJ is going through here.
4855144 So...show and justify...don't tell?
4855156 Much better way to say it, but yeah. Show and justify AJ's suffering, don't just tell it.
4855137
Jimmy: There's never any need to overdo AJ's accent or her folksy language. We all know it's there. :D I did 28,000 words of her trying to date Fancy Pants and may have had one too many 'Whoa Nellies' in there, but I ended up having to search & replace too many instances of her using 'fancy'. ^^; Just write him like he is. He'll let you know when he's comfortable.
As it is, we don't have a defined beginning or ending, or sense of where we are or where Applejack is in this scene. And we don't know what triggered this final decision for him to come out.
Sorry, I clicked on this, thinking that it's what it was. The whole concept is still under development in the fandom. The most popular is Snails as Glittershell, and I know there are OC ponies who have tried to address the subject.
I have something like it with Fleur being a gelding, but that was more Rarity's POV and also more clop-related. :P
We know it's impossible by magic to turn a mare into a stallion (and AJ bolted, even though she knew it was fake) but that doesn't mean nopony's doing the research
4855192 I did write something to accostume myself with the idea, which was much more what you're looking for.
The plot is as follows:
After another crusading attempt gone wrong, Scootaloo begins to realise that maybe the lack of flight and her lack of cutie mark aren't the only thing wrong with her....maybe that feeling that there's something missing doesn't just portray from her lack of cutie mark.
It was told in a series of flashbacks, which show her several moments of not liking girly things.
It went something like this
"And, as she layed in bed, that night, all the moments she had spent looking for her cutie mark flashed before her eyes, she had tried everything! Yet she still didn't feel satisfied, she was beginning to wonder if it was her cutie mark that she so desired, or if there was some other thing bothering her.
She couldn't sleep, she had to figure this out! She shifted into the covers, her legs kicking, as the covers were yanked away. She didn't feel very well, there had to be something that she hadn't tried! She looked again to the several memories of crusading she had. Those were fun times.
A padron began to emmerge on the back of her mind, something she had never realised, she briefly pondered the idea....
"Could it be?"
:and what follows are several flashbacks until she figures out she doesn't feel like a filly (the story also doesn't end with her feeling like a boy, it ends with her wondering, just what exactly she is)
It had a beggining, middle, and end, but if I was afraid to post this with aj, I didn't even consider posting this with Scootaloo.
It was a brave attempt and I'm proud of you for finding the courage to write it, but it was a bit lacking in some regards, and it wasn't just the editing issues.
As some have stated before, Applejack's characterization feels off. I can understand why you'd want to write this to be about Applejack, but I think it'd be more believable if you'd written it about somepony whose personality isn't so well defined - another farmer like Golden Harvest, for instance, or an OC. In fact I've been tempted to use Golden Harvest in this regard myself; there's a surprising amount of details to work with.
Rarity was in and out faster than an obese thirty-year-old in a sleazy motel, and I was left wondering just why you threw her in in the first place. Again, I can understand why you'd want to - the dichotomy between Applejack's reality and the illusion of perfection Rarity embodies could be quite a powerful image in a story like this - but two lines is nowhere near enough to explore that. It felt like you derailed the story for little gain.
Isn't that the exact opposite of the point of the story? You've marked this complete, which means there's no chapter to come in which the family learns to understand, or proves Jack wrong about his view of them. There's no chance for redemption or compromise; it just is, and Jack's gonna have to deal with it.
4855156
Yes. A story is written to make the reader feel, or learn, or change. I didn't get much of anything from this because it was all surface thoughts.
Now don't take this too hard, hon. You've got potential. You just need to keep exploring until you find your voice. Finding a story worth telling isn't enough; it's all in how you tell it. Just keep practicing and keep experimenting!
4855192
I wrote one transgender story inspired by my own grand jeté out of the closet, haha, and I'm tempted to write a few more on the subject. The thing is, since I don't see this as a controversial subject it's hard to find a story-length plot arc for this kind of thing that doesn't come off as angsty or forced. Perhaps we need a different medium for what I have in mind.
4855255 You know, I'm writing from personal experience....well kind of. The thing is, my folks, my friends, my family, everyone I know is some of the most acceptive, liberal, "We're proud of you, no matter what you are, or what you become" sort of people. I'm so proud of them! And I love them millions for it.
This story is my sort of "coming out story" to folks I meet, mostly people I meet online in brony websites, something I can send them, when they're asking about who I am and what I am, and all those questions.
Now, If I was being true to my real story, everythign would be just peachy, and no one would have a problem with it. But that would be boring, it wouldn't have a conflict, and I don't think It'd interest anyone.
Drama sells, or at least interests people.
To tell you the truth, I went through most of this feelings, those are genuine feelings, doubt, fear, anxiety, etc etc. And in the end it turned out to just be silly things my heart and mind were playing on me. I would read the news, and every week there would be a new story about the southern usa, or russia, or africa, or the middle east. And I'd be afraid.
So I developed a simple conflict, but the reason it doesn't really stand as a proper conflict is, well, I didn't really have experience with it, so it comes off as more of a reference.
This isn't the only transgender or transpony I wrote, not by a long shot, I wrote several, and started dozens. In order to figure out who I was, or am, I tried to apply my feelings to ficticional characters. Which is pretty pathetic.
(As an aside, the story is only complete because this is the subject I meant to deal with, sequels are not out of the way yet)
I'll admit this isn't my best work regarding the subject, but all other works I had were....not as conclusive, those I wrote while still drowned in doubt, and self pity, and they aren't too happy. The messages of negativy transgender folks already receive are so many in number, I tried writing something happy for once.
4855255
I don't know if we do. Cards on the table: I'm a straight white guy. The sort of things I don't know about another community could not only fill a phone book, it could dial long-distance and chat to other communities about the things I don't know. Which means there are occasions when I shouldn't be sticking my head into scenarios that don't concern me. HOWEVER.
I subscribe to a theory that ponies are happy little marshmallows, and I really hate seeing them being sad. They can reflect, they can ponder, and they can worry about their lives, but in the end, ponies are meant to be happy.
So I don't believe we need an agonized or forced-dialogue story. We could use a little conflict, sure. But we don't have to have Twilight smash mirrors because she feels coltish or Caramel hitting the salt licks because he wants to walk the fashion runway.
I had Fleur be a gelding because I figured it was a much more natural thing than the stereotypical 'futanari' this fandom's so fond of. And she probably wasn't the only one. Even that subset alone could provide a strong feature story. :D
4855283
As it stands, there's just not enough here to make a reader really care. If you extend it to include more of the past or more of the future, you could have a winner.
But I think that would be a fine story! I think watching a pony tear themselves up on the inside for no reason can be just as interesting as watching them fight with another. Hay, it worked for my coming-out story, and it worked for Hasbro too. It's About Time, anypony?
4855301
Don't sell yourself short! Everypony deserves a place in these dialogues.
Fleur as a gelding does seem like an interesting twist on the subject. Do you have a link?
4855470
Just look for it in my stories list under Single White Unicorn Times Three. It's a clopfic, so I can't provide a direct link in the comments. ^^;
4855475 If I remember correctly a gelding is akin to someone with chemical castration, right?
Now I'm curious! How does that work?
4855475
Ah, gotcha. It's been added to my RL Group. I'll be sure to let you know what I think of it as soon as I can.
Speaking of which...
4855476
Congratulations, Jimmy! Your story is the first I've managed to read in bloody ages! I wonder if I can magage another today.
4855476
For horses, the testicles are actually removed entirely. (Google is going to be asking me some awkward questions one day, I swear!) But the sheath and everything else remain. They can come, but they don't produce actual sperm to reproduce. Most lose the interest in mating, although it may take a while to override those instincts.
In the story, Fleur was gelded young because of an accident involving a jump ramp and a barbed-wire fence. x.X I played around with the possible body-type that would result in (a stallion's height without the muscle mass), given Fleur's body was originally based on an alicorn's. For the purposes of the fic, she had a lower sex drive than other ponies, but it was still present, if she wanted it to be.
4855541 Well that's one way to lose your masculinity. Even if I'm not too atached to my genitals, I still cringed while hearing that.
I can see it now, like they don't get the testosterone to develop the muscle mass and stuff, but they still grow, leading to that peculiar shape?
4855561
At that point, I was just making it up, because Rarity didn't get a ton of details out of Fleur or Fancy Pants. Some ponies are like Snails, some are like Big Mac. Fleur was just going to be a tall stallion regardless of getting clipped.
To bring this back to your comment section: Keep writing and looking for a new way to tell unusual stories, especially ones that aren't reflected on this site a lot. We need those ideas to push against the waves of dull versions of Humans in Equestria and lazy 'lolfics'.
4855576 I have read it, oh, well. I skipped the "hot stuff",but I got the jist of it.
I didn't really enjoy it as a story, but I understood it as a plea. You get my thumbs up for that. It's hard to admit anything to strangers even in a positive one such as this one.
You should probably get rid of that edgy pre-description. It really isn't necessary.
And the only places where Applejack has been stereotyped as a bigot is in the horrible cookie-cutter coming out stories where one of the mane six gathers their friends at the library, makes their confession, and we see their reactions in turn.
The vignette wasn't well-written, but other people have covered that. You've gone the strange route of having Equestria be about as accepting as the real world is, and that's saying something. Equestria isn't really built to be a heteronormative society in the first place, it strikes me more as a libertarian socialist utopia with strong lesbian leanings due to the ludicrous gender imbalance. It would certainly be possible to comment on society's/Hasbro's exclusion of LGBT narratives in media/MLPFiM by making a satirical erasure-laden dystopia where gays, bis, and trans are disappeared, reprogrammed, and reinserted into their previous lives with no public discourse or recognition of their existence. But that's satire of our society's media, not an accurate depiction of what Hasbro's Equestria would be if we logically extrapolated LGBT elements in a consistent manner. And this isn't really a logical extrapolation either. This is just another dystopic interpretation of Equestria, and we have plenty of those (though not enough good ones).
The fact that it features worst background pony is also a huge mistake.
4856094 Yeah, I'm starting to regret this story....the thing is, I originally was only focusing on her issues, it was more of a...struggle with herself kind of thing, but then it was pointed out to me that "Heh, this needs obstacles" and I wrote that.
Truth be told, I'd love for our world to be more like Equestria, I think most everyone would like that. I once had the theory that "Well since mares outrank stallions 20 to 1 or something, lesbian mares is the norm, and the few who are straight must feud between them to get a colt/stallion."
I was writing that, but.....China.
Yeah, China, it was pointed out to me, that even if there are millions of chinese men who aren't ever able to get a wife, homosexuality still isn't accepted there.
Now you could say that Equestria is a utopia, but still....the same guy keeps ruining my ideas.
Like I go to him "hey man, what do ya think?" and 9 out of 10 times, he has an example pertaining to the real world on why this doesn't make sense, bloody heck.
(Now, I have another story with this subject, that I am editing, this one isn't focused on the "Transpony vs society" issue, it's more of a "What am I, and why don't I fit in with what others call me" sort of deal.
Still though, this isn't really, my best work, and I'm kind of ashamed of it, really, I'm just keeping it because of the wonderful discussion it lead to.
China is not a valid counterexample, and I can't stress that enough. The gender ratio in China is around 12 males to 10 females, while Equestria has something like 100 or more females to 10 males. China's gender imbalance is considered unsustainable, what about Equestria's? They have to have a method of lesbian reproduction.
Well, um, no. That doesn't dissuade me from saying Equestria is a utopia. I don't know what "ideas" you've been bringing to him, or why you're bringing these "utopian ideas" to him in isolation and expecting him to accept them ex nihilo, but that's not how social dynamics work. I can easily come up with a society that's better than our current one. I can also see Equestria is a good example of a world that's better than ours. Just because it might not be able to be perfect doesn't mean it's not definitely better than our world in clearly observable ways.
But yeah, China's gender imbalance doesn't mean Equestria isn't full of lesbians. And I don't know what you and your friend have been talking about, so, no. If your arguments have been based on human psychological principles instead of psychological probabilities emerging from the fictional evidence, then those arguments are kind of inadmissible, too.
And herd dynamics are bullshit too. Mr. and Mrs. Cake, as well as Rarity's thing for Prince Blueblood in S1 and the recent *ugh* S4 episode with Trenderhoof show that couples are the norm, and that polygyny is not a viable relationship option. Mr. and Mrs. Cake also show that there's a form of fidelity through matrimony, and that when males are in a relationship, they have an equal hand in child-rearing. This doesn't make sense in a herd system, where the central male (I cringe just saying the phrase) would have less of a hand in child-rearing, as there would be many mothers per father, and the father would not be able to spread his time over all of his children.
The above does not imply a vestigial herd dynamic either, with monogamous couples becoming the norm recently, relatively speaking. First of all, the equal division of labor and the central matriarchical figure of Princess Celestia implies that there is no such idea of male supremacy/centrality. While a royal (reverse) harem would be a possible theme (the mare with the most males in a male-scarce world reigns supreme), that still does not imply a male-central dynamic. Second of all, the mechanism by which the vestigial herd dynamic fades into monogamous couples is flawed. There would presumably be an alpha mare, the pick of the stallion's herd, whose children the stallion would spend his efforts into rearing for the sake of evolutionary tendencies. The alpha mare role would be adapted into the monogamous mare in the straight relationship, but as the herd dynamic shifted to a couple dynamic, so too would the gender imbalance rebalance itself. This shift therefore could not happen recently, as the faithful monogamous couple is a societal norm in Equestria, nor could it happen historically, as the gender imbalance is ridiculously present in present-day Equestria.
This is why I insist that Equestria is lesbian-dominated, and males are a rare curiosity, if truly present at all, in a logically consistent Equestria. This is not very strongly reasoned, but I wrote this quickly and while hungry. I'm not going to write a fucking thesis on why my headcanon is the most logically consistent, evolutionarily and anthropologically. That's what's known as a waste of time and effort.
4856318 Okay...You've clearly put much more thought on this issue, than I ever did. I am frankly agasp with the whole analisys you did to the story. I hope you aren't offended by it...but I'll just take your word for it.
4856123
Don't say that! You set out to say something and you said it. Perhaps it could've been said a little more smoothly, or perhaps you picked a mouthpiece that didn't rise to the challenge, but the effort was made and I applaud you for that. Don't consider this to be a failure or anything of the sort; instead, think of it as a step toward success.
4855576
There's not enough yes in the universe to express my agreement. Take Back the Feature Box! Who's with me? Nopony? Okay.
The Royal Guard is fine too.
4856094
fc00.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2012/121/2/b/apple_jack_gets_an_idea_by_dharthez-d4y728h.png
Still fighting the good fight, eh, Razzle?
4856769 Yeah but....I find this story simply unbearable, like, everytime I look at it, I feel ashamed of what I've written. and this continues to garner views, and comments....which is what seems to happen, every time I tend to regret a story, it gains popularity all of a sudden.
If you do want to read a story by me that focus on this subject (somewhat) give This a try
And oh, whatever, do whatever you want to.
I read the story. While it doesn't quite sound like AJ, it could sound like another pony psyching themselves up the day before they come out to someone.
I have added this story to the list of transpony stories I maintain on my userpage as well as the same list on the List of Transpony Stories On And Off Fimfiction thread on the Transgender Bronies group. Also, everyone, if you know about more transpony stories that are not on my list, please let me know.
4855301
Check out the list of stories I maintain on my userpage or List of Transpony Stories On And Off Fimfiction.
4860196 Oh...well, thanks. I guess.
4860206
No problem. This is something I do. Also, I am going through your other stories right now. I think I found 3. Those that are of the subject will end up on the list shortly.
4860210 3? But....I did not write my other stories with the intention to portray this subject....and yet.
I guess that writing, being a reflection of the individual who does it, may have those same issues that I myself was (and still am) dealing at the time. I'm curious to see what are the stories that will make it there.
There is much emotion in this. I think this sounds perfectly fitting for someone starting to change into their true self.
While I agree that this doesn't really sound like AJ and thus makes it difficult to wonder if the canon pony considers herself this way, I enjoyed this. Excellent work
4860230
I actually read your most recent Scootaloo one and really liked it. Perhaps not trying to portray it actually ended up resulting in something good. Slice of life can always be a good thing.
4860196
Thanks, Cyborg.
There we go! See? I was wrong and was just looking in the wrong place to find stories tackling this theme!
4860244 Tackling the theme in a pony manner. i agree, I've been reading some stories that are on the group, and they really do deal with the subject in a better way than I ever did our could hope to. Give it a look, can't hurt, right?
I'm trying to find the courage to comment those stories, with my personal experience, and stuff, I'll try to.
Anyway, I've got a question for you. What kind of colt/boy/man/male being, jumps with his exposed genitals over barbed wire? I mean, I get it that ponies don't wear clothing but still....holy goodness....that was a dumb thing to do.
(still enjoyed the story)
4860278
*laughs* Stupid colts, apparently. It's like all those skateboarding videos you see where they miss the railing on the outdoor staircase and *wham*.
4860292 I think everyone, no matter their set of genitalia, cringed reading that. I struggle to imagine how you came up with that, and put it into words. Seriously, did you have to decide "Well, I need a reason for Fleur to be a castrated male...." and came up with "Oh yeah, genital mutilation, I've got it!", did you have to research? Did you google image that stuff with the filter off? Didn't you cringe internally as you described the events?.
I mean, I've cut myself in barbed wire once (I went on to a trip with a friend to see his great-uncle, which lived out in the middle of the fields), and I I grabbed on to some barbed wire, to look closer to the animals (The animals themselves were protected from the barbed wire due to there being no way for them to reach that high, since they were in a decline), used to zoos, and the likes, where you could grab on to railings to take a closer look. I put my whole weight, tilting myself into it, and It dug into my flesh. I still got some of the marks, I mean, geez!
4860321
It's always fun causing your readership to cringe, isn't it?
There were a lot of factors. First was that I didn't want to insult anyone by trying to do some gender politics and make wrong statements or assumptions. And I also didn't want to dig too deeply into Equestrian Society's suddenly-common practice of gelding. It had to be rare. It was a "Futaquestria" group challenge, after all, limited to about 4,000 words, and I wanted to do something different than all the 'Futa' that would have been submitted. I'd had the idea about Fleur being a gelding for months, given her size and voice, but hadn't gotten around to writing it.
It was really just to get that idea out of my head so I could get back to work on AJ & Fancy Pants. (I really like writing Fancy Pants. :D)
4856769
Well shucks pardner, I reckon I don't know whut in the heck yer talkin' about.
4860350 Not really futa(nari? Or something, I'm not familiar with the term) if it's just a male, I mean, males got dicks naturally, right?
Ah, did you end up winning?
4860370
Tied for third. Someone who wrote something with Diamond Tiara got first, and a compatriot who borrowed the 'gelding' idea for Fleetfoot got second.
4860380 Foalcon? Oh, for....what, did she focus her dominant personality and need to humiliate the Cmc into bucking them senseless?
Ooh one more. I can turn a mare, into a stallion!