"I find the phrase 'the ends justify the means' to be a misrepresentation of the Consequentialist world view, for it seeks to demean the agent's views on the means as if they hold no influence upon the ends. A more accurate phrase to embody the philosophy would be this: 'The ends had better justify the means'."
~ Excerpt from the Consiquentialist Libertarian book: Why is Life? Chapter nine: Facts over Feelings
Sin's Sin
Sin took a breath and opened his eyes, his orbital receptors greeted by the typical black and blue emptiness of his mind's blackroom.
He looked around to see if he could find Critic or the Kid about, but neither of them appeared to greet him and offer advice or council on his current predicament.
Three days had passed since he'd gone out with Krystal into the wilds and resolved himself to apologize to Scootaloo for the threat he'd made against her life. Three days since he'd made said apology, and three days since the filly had given him a look of suspicious contempt and muttered out a half hearted and begrudged acceptance.
The glare she gave the ground and huffing, pouting expression she wore gave Sin the full understanding that his apology had gone unaccepted.
The Federalist knew it wouldn't, he knew damn well that what he'd done would scar even an adult with a full understanding of the situation, how could he ever expect her to forgive him? How does one even apologize for threatening to kill you?
Sin didn't know, but for some reason or another, Scootaloo's rejection of his apology enraged him to the core.
It wasn't fair, it wasn't right. How could he be angry with her? Sin knew how it would play out, how unlikely it was that she wouldn't be receptive to his attempts at mending things between them... but the look on her face, that look of utter contempt, of loathing and begrudged acceptance, after everything he'd done for her.
It made his blood boil, forcing him to walk out the door to cool off before giving her a tongue lashing she wouldn't forget.
He wanted to say things, things he knew would cut her deeply. Things that offered nothing but pain and hurt. To make the foal suffer for her insolence, to make her pay for forgetting the times he'd saved her life. Who did she think she was not accepting his apology?! That little bitch would be dead three times over if it wasn't for him! That fucking littl-
"TAPIO DAMMIT!" Sin shouted into the void, slamming his head against the floor.
He didn't need to ask why he was so angry with her. It wasn't her fault, but then again, it wasn't his either...
A small chill ran through Sin's spine and he took a breath to steal himself against the new presence in the void.
Raising his head, the stallion found himself no longer in the Black Room, but in the White Room, where his dreams and mind's eye would torture him once again.
"Why do you deny it?" A cold, almost lifeless voice asked from behind. Sin's eyes shot wide. That wasn't the sound of the Nightmare, but it was a voice he'd heard before.
The stallion slowly turned his head and fear gripped his chest at what he saw.
The Alicorn of Insanity, while intimidating and formidable, was something Sin had dealt with for many months now. She he could handle without much fear or need of courage, she had a game Sin knew how to play, and she would have been a welcome sight compared to what stood before the pony now.
Swallowing the bile that threatened the back of his throat, Sin tensed himself as he gazed upon the white robed stallion before him. His entire body was covered in ivory, polyester hooded cloak, the tight apron in front coated in a mix of bright red and brown blood that betrayed the violence and gore the pony had committed. Yet, the most striking and horrifying feature had to be the lifeless, plastic mask that hid the stallion's face. The expression of absolute neutrality and indifference to the cautious Sin as he looked into the black and unassuming eye holes.
The Reaper tilted his head and repeated the question. "Why do you deny it?"
His voice was cool, smooth and void of any emotional investment whatever, speaking as if he were asking about a boring summer's day. Considering the horrifying image the being displayed, and the deadly threatening aura he exuded in dreams past, the calm, almost lifeless words were a bone chilling in contrast.
Sin took a breath and lowered his head in defiance. "Deny what?" He snarled in contempt.
Regarding him for a moment, as a curious cat would it's prey, the Reaper answered. "You're desire to kill her."
"What?!" Sin barked a little too loudly. "I don't want to kill Scootaloo!"
"Oh?" The white clad pony asked wryly. "I think we both know that's not very true."
Slowly, the Reaper slowly turned and began circling Sin, his steps somehow stiff and commanding, but casual and relaxed at the same time. "After all, she could have easily gotten you killed, couldn't she?"
Eyes narrowing, Sin should have spoken right away about the moral aspect against what the Reaper had said. He should have told the construct that he'd made a commitment to help and protect her... that it was the... right thing to do... but he didn't.
Instead, the Federalist simply stated: "The kid has made his decision on her. It's out of my hooves."
"The kid." The Reaper spat in a voice that almost showed some sliver of emotion. "The Kid and the Critic. They make life difficult, don't they?"
Sin's jaw gaped just a bit. Never, ever had his subconscious mind ever spoken against the Critic nor the Kid. The fact that this... thing did both intrigued him and more importantly; horrified him.
And yet... the white clad figure spoke truth, no matter how much Sin wanted to deny it. As terrible as it was, had Kid not forced Sin to investigate the incident back in the Everfree and save the foal, she wouldn't have been his concern. Even if it did mean her own death. Slowly, the stallion laxed himself, if only just. "Yes, they do." He admitted before pressing his lips, finding the statement in need of defending. "But their hearts are in the right place."
"Hearts?" The Reaper spoke, his voice taking a contemplative edge. He stood for a moment, as if chewing the word over in his mind. He slowly turned and looked Sin directly in the eye.
"Their hearts are what might get Macintosh killed. Might have gotten you killed."
Muscles tensing, the Federalist bit his lip as anger and indignation coursed through him in an unprecedented display of rage. Not at the Reaper himself, but at his words. It was true, he knew it was true ever since he'd started this little quest of his... but to hear it out loud like that just made his blood boil something fierce.
"Factually true." The stallion conceded. "But an acceptable risk."
"Is it?" The Reaper asked, once again beginning his slow, purposeful circle stride. "Are ponies who actively seek to impede your mission an acceptable risk to take on? Seems to me they're just as much an enemy as the Trotski you hunt."
Again, another wave of irritation and anger forced Sin to halt any immediate retort, settling instead to begin his own circling in order to keep the pony in his line of sight.
The Reaper spoke truth again, and for a second time, Sin found he had no logical response. Logically speaking, it would be easier to abandon the girls and hunt the Trotski all his own. Not to mention he was just as much a threat to them both...
"They wont do it again, not after what happened with Panzy and Clover." Sin stated, finally calming his mind.
"Perhaps." The Reaper said simply. "Perhaps they'll be more rational and stand aside next time... but did they not say they wouldn't allow you to kill? Do you think their Life Worship will end simply because they've suffered pain? Krystal has already shown she didn't want to sever ties to her emotional connection to forgiveness and acceptance, and Luna had all but erased the entire ordeal from Scootaloo's memory." He paused his walking and turned to eye Sin directly in challenge. "What's changed, exactly?"
For the third time, Sin was argued into silence. What had changed since last time? Nothing really. He suspected Krystal would be a bit more receptive to his mission after her experience, but even if he told her he wouldn't kill the Trotski leaders, it didn't guarantee either of the girls would allow him to go off on his own to deal with them. Their own ideas on stopping him being for his own good for... some reason or another. Valiar was a new addition, maybe he could be of use in keeping them busy. It wasn't like he planned to stop-
Sin's looked up and his breathing and mind went on overdrive as the white mask of the Reaper now sat a mere three inches from his face. The stony and unexpressive features of the mask even more disturbing up close.
"You can't stop them." It stated matter of factly. "They are a pair of liabilities, loose ends that will get you and Macintosh, and who knows how many others killed out of their own foolish notions of Life Worship. You know this, Sin. They are no different from the idiots in North New Equine who seek to protect the welfare rats from rightful starvation through their hatred of suffering. You're harboring the very behavior you claim to hate."
Sin's eyes widened, but he couldn't will his body backwards away from the threat, he couldn't move at all. His heart began to thump in his ears as the intense, black slits in the mask's eyes bore down into him like the aura on it's most oppressive.
And again, the Federalist couldn't reply. It... it was true.
Krystal and Scootaloo did protect the Trotski like the Life Worshipers in New Equine protected the incompetent and unfit. They were a burden to him like the parasites were a burden to the productive. Ordered about by the governing body of the country, just like was ordered by the governing body of his mind. And... it was likely he'd be ended by them the same way the welfare rats would end the entire state.
It was a contradiction in values...
"Your hypocrisy isn't your own. It's because of the Critic and the Kid. Your emotional acceptance has made you vulnerable and complacent. It is because of them that you refuse to kill, or at the very least abandon, that which makes you weak..." The Reaper raised his head, forcing Sin to look up at him. "But I can help with that."
...
Sin blinked, and then blinked again as the words sunk in.
"What?" He whispered.
With methodical grace, the Reaper slowly turned and began walking passed Sin, leaving the stallion free from his gaze and to slowly turn and find a sight that almost made his heart stop.
Behind him, the Kid and the Critic both stood, looking at him with passive faces as the Reaper came between the two. "Despite how much you claim to love Anarchy and Libertarian virtues, you comprehend the importance for order and hegemony. Things that, even with or without government, are required for any society or group to function." The blood spattered pony turned. "For without these things, a group of individuals will eventually turn on each other and eat each other alive or worse. Too much chaos of inconsistency in thought and culture will ultimately lead to irreconcilable differences and the destruction of any civilization or... small group."
Both Krystal and Scootaloo materialized from the either, both with faces just as passive and none expressive as the Critic and the Kid.
The Reaper stepped forward and raised his hoof to reveal something that had just appeared in the dreamscape, or Sin simply hadn't noticed until just now.
A long, razor sharp butcher's knife was slowly raised to Scootaloo's throat.
"Diversity of thought for the expansion and challenge of ideas is one thing, but to protect those who wish to kill you is regressive and self destructive. An idea that leads ultimately to needless suffering and death. Unintentional to be certain, but consequences don't care about intent." The white clad pony pressed the blade firmly into the filly's neck and Sin felt his stomach churn as the sound of slipping metal and parting flesh echoed through the void, the smell of iron assaulting the pony as red blood began to pour out of Scootaloo's throat. Her blank stare never once changing in show of the deadly wound before her body simply collapsed onto the floor.
Sin's eyes widened in horror at the filly's limp and lifeless form, but his respite in movement kept him from doing anything to help her.
The Reaper turned to Krystal.
"No..."
"Even those who understand in full the intent to harm and murder would rather cling to their Life Worship and endanger those who seek to protect them." He raised the knife up to the off white mare's throat.
The sound of metal slipping as it dug into her throat made Sin cringe and the second mare fell into a heap just like the filly before her.
Sin's breaths came deeply to him now, his mind a mix between emotions of horror, dread, anger, disappointment, guilt, and an emotion that superseded them all... relief.
Relief that he'd not need to look after them anymore. That he wouldn't need to worry about protecting or feeding, or keeping any promises to either of them anymore. Yea, he was still angry that the Reaper was killing them, but it was like the emotion was in the back ground, a small nagging at the stallion's overtly forced sense of calm and acceptance.
"It feels good, doesn't it?" The Reaper asked, cleaning the blade against his already bloodied cloak. "To be rid of them and the constant frustrations they've caused? To know that their differences will no longer be a factor in your mission to save Macintosh? That order in self-determination has been restored in its rightful place to you and you alone?"
Sin tried to move his mouth to answer in the negative. That he'd had no right to take any pleasure in their loss, that he'd made a promise to both of them to care and look after them, but the words wouldn't come. Instead, he answered in the only way he could, with a helpless shake of the head.
"No?" The construct questioned before a mirthless, cynical chuckle escaped it. "Of course not. How could you feel better?
They were not the problem, no. They were merely symptoms of a much greater disease."
Again, the white figure turned, his attention fixed upon the Kid and the Critic. He stood and began to approach them, the blade in his hoof drawn to bear. "A disease in which I shall be the cure."
"NO!"
With every last will of his being, Sin finally found his agency and charged forward. He leapt forth and slammed himself hooves first into the back of the unsuspecting white construct with the full intent to break the thing until there wasn't a pair of bone pieces left to rub together.
"SIN!"
THWAK!
Sin gasped and bolted up, his eyes darting around to find the threat he'd just assaulted. But the blood covered Reaper was nowhere to be seen, nothing but a heavily breathing Krystal standing beside him.
Critic? Critic!
'Sin, Sin calm down. It was just a dream.'
The stallion's chest heaved as he stared at the ground. It was... just a dream? No, it couldn't have been, it felt so... vivid. His feelings of anger, of rage, of loss... they were just as real now as they were when he'd watched the mare standing before him murdered before his eyes as she stood in the low illumination of the fireplace.
"Sin are you okay? You were crying." Krystal said, fear and worry permeating her voice.
The Federalist looked up at her and had to restrain himself from reaching out and taking her in a bone crushing embrace. He lifted a hoof to his cheek and found tears hadn't just wetted the pelt of his cheek, but fully dampened it.
He forced an awkward chuckle and rubbed the back of his head. "Sorry, just had a bad dream."
How's the kid? Is the kid okay?
'He's fine, Sin.' Critic responded calmly. 'We're both fine.'
That's good.
"What was the dream about?" Krystal asked, after another round of questing if the disturbed pony was alright. Sin dismissed her inquiry, stating that it was nothing to worry about. After all, it wasn't really like telling her would do any good, matter of fact, it would probably scar her more than anything.
"You know, if something's bothering you, we can talk about it." She offered.
A sudden spike of irritation and anger shot through Sin's spine like a red hot bolt from a crossbow. He bit his tongue to keep his words in check. She couldn't know about it, it wasn't his place to harm her like that, not after everything he'd put her through.
"Thanks, but it's nothing." He managed through the best smile he could force.
Unsatisfied, but accepting, Krystal went back to her place on the couch to stand watch for the night while Sin turned away from her to pretend to go back to sleep. But with the new monstrosity that he knew awaited him in the white room, sleep was the last thing the stallion ever wanted to do again.
It lives!!!!
8380777
I am trying to resurrect!
Interesting chapter, glad to have you back though sorry to hear you feel forced to continue with it, I know how much it sucks to work hard with little or no motivation.
I am curious about something, if you would be so kind as to indulge: was your intention to explore actual psychopathic behaviour here or was the 'Reaper' simply a personification for coldness and indifference?
8383750
Only thing to feel sorry about is the chapter feels slightly forced and out of place.
The intent? The intent was that of consiqentialism vs life worship, and just how much of a hypocrite Sin is in his psychology. But I suppose it could also be argued that coldness and indifference aren't really "unfeeling" when they are more conducive to one goal over the other. Especially when the competing goal is protecting people who seek to stop you from achieving the other.
But there's one other aspect: The desire for Order. Something that's never really been addressed as apart of SIn's personality overtly, but is very much present.
8383877
Right. Whatever works for you, I guess. Not really my business though I admit I'm happy you're posting again.
As for the more interesting part: I suppose that makes sense. I'm assuming you mean 'order' in the sense of things playing out Sin's way, as opposed to the literal desire for authority? Yeah, I've noticed that a little in his character.
8383918 "Things playing out Sin's way."
It's not really them "playing out his way", so much as the natural and predictable flow of cause and effect. The Collapse of N. New Equine, for example, isn't "his way" of order, but simply order itself balancing what was out of wack. Had he had it his way, the people would have avoided the debt and the monopoly of Triple M. all together.
Which would be everyone's desire all together, right? Everybody dislike monopolies and placing themselves (let alone their entire country) into a dangerous situation that would substantially decrease their standard of living, yet such things happen all the time. There are reasons for it, to be sure: A sense of security, a sense of altruism in assisting those who cannot help themselves, etc etc. But where the issue lies is in the means.
To try to ensure over reaching stability in the present at the cost of stability in the future.
To the short term thinker: to sacrifice future stability for the sake of immediate gratification is a no brainier. After all, it's hard to say "we need to think about the future" when you're looking at a starving family in the present.
But alas, consequence comes in the end. And the sacrifices made in benefit of yesterday will be felt in the loss of tomorrow. Be they welfare programs that encourage unstable breeding practices that never would have occurred without it, or the lost capital to taxation that a business could have used to create jobs and value. There's always a price to pay.
The social dynamic isn't much different between he and the girls. Life worshipers that they are, they'd rather avoid killing and murder, even if it does come at the risk to all their persons and the cost of Sin finding other ways of getting rid of the Trotski. Yet, the thing that really keeps Sin bound to them is mostly his own... "inner child".
Sin, on his own, isn't really a good pony... at all. Had it not been for Kid and Critic, Scootaloo would be dead since he wasn't compelled to go into the woods and save her after hearing a scream, he'd have never given Uppity a chance since he wasn't encouraged to let down his guard, he'd have never gone with most any of Celestia's orders, the Nightmare would have possessed him immediately and... basically very little good would have come from him.
It's all convoluted as hell, but that's the primary part of Sin is that he tries to avoid variables that would detract from the simplicity of cause and effect and the order it offers. Other ponies are chaos, variables that would detract from the most efficient way of handling things and reaching as desirable conclusions as possible.
The thing is that Sin doesn't really live much in the present, he doesn't do well in it either. Usually his mind's in the future; planning, scheming, predicting, determining what the better course of action to take is based on the consequences that are to follow. Order is necessary in... order (ha!) to plan. Predictable patterns and variables to see what decision and action will bring what consequences and how said consequence will effect the great chain of events afterwards.
It's all excessively convoluted and complicated, but yea, Order in the sense of predictability and superior outcomes more so than things simply being his way.
8384024
Ah, right. So would you say that when it comes to the notion of cause and effect, Sin is a bit of an ideologue then? Or am I missing the point? Whenever I try to contemplate these ideas, I can't help but feel a little young and confused.
When I was talking about 'things going Sin's way', I simply meant that perhaps he feels a bit too proud or sure of himself, like he presumes his skill and knowledge should mean things simply play out as he thinks they should when he's involved. However, it seems maybe I'm not looking deeply enough into it.
I actually really like the way you represent Sin's mind as being of multiple different entities; I actually find it very reflective of reality. Or perhaps that's just something I struggle with. Sin's more 'dominant' personality does seem respectable and decent enough but... I guess I see what you mean when you describe it as not being good. Do the traits of being good and being respectable have to be so incompatible though? That's something I've been interested for quite some time now.
As for the last part: apart from in the sense of planning and calculation I never really thought of Sin as being 'future-minded'. I once heard it said that happier minds live in the future and unhappy minds live in the past and Sin doesn't seem like a particularly happy or driven character, not when it comes to life overall. In fact I always perceived him as a bit of drifter.
Yes, Sin is very much an Ideologue of Consequentialism. That all cause has an effect beyond what was intended, and even if the cause was made with good intentions, it's the effects all around consequence that concerns him. The negative implications especially.
When I was talking about 'things going Sin's way', I simply meant that perhaps he feels a bit too proud or sure of himself, like he presumes his skill and knowledge should mean things simply play out as he thinks they should when he's involved. However, it seems maybe I'm not looking deeply enough into it.
This is a yes and no answer. Yes in that he does take smug satisfaction in being right about conclusions, especially when he was part of the sequence of events that lead to said conclusions. And no in that: It's more about how he needs to be right.
Not right in the sense of: "I'm right simply because I say I am" but right in the sense that his mind can follow the cause and effect of the situations he finds himself in and deduce what courses of action will lead to which outcome. A break in the logical continuity through, say, force of violence or excessive debt, are a high irritation because of the counter productive and immoral hiccup in logical continence.
His form of "right" isn't so much in the ethereal objective moral sense (which is what most people look to when asking if they're doing the "right" thing) but in determination of the overall goal to which he's asking about.
"To kill the Trotski and save Macintosh, is it right to keep Krystal and Scootaloo around?"
The answer? No, it's not right to keep them around. They are variables of chaos that break the logical path of cause and effect. Variables that he can't simply discard, and that's maddening. Doing the wrong thing for the main goal in order to do the right thing for another goal.
"Do the traits of being good and being respectable have to be so incompatible though? That's something I've been interested for quite some time now."
No. But remember: Sin isn't what most would call a "normal" pony (person). He's got mental problems out the ass and was an honest sociopath at one point.
As for the last part: apart from in the sense of planning and calculation I never really thought of Sin as being 'future-minded'.
Perhapse not in the sense of wanting to settle down and start a family, no. But in seeing the negative? Always. New Equine's Economic collapse, seeing the possibility of the Trotski harming Macintosh despite him being out of foreseeable danger, wanting to stop Tapio Bearking from helping to stop the collapse of New Equine because the population will not learn without suffering and will only continue their debt based and subservient life styles... I'd say most of his thought process had to do with future events and possibilities than anything else.
But I'm also biased.
Hey, I'm not sure if I would like to start reading this at some point. Who do you think would enjoy working through this mammoth of a story if they only discovered it recently, and who might be better off reading something else? It's impressive you have managed to keep working on it for so long either way!
8393364
Hey, I'm not sure if I would like to start reading this at some point. Who do you think would enjoy working through this mammoth of a story if they only discovered it recently, and who might be better off reading something else? It's impressive you have managed to keep working on it for so long either way!
Thank you for the compliment.
Depends: The first few chapters strongly show my novice writing ability. Even the revised versions are kinda hard to read.
So if you have no tolerance for punctuation, grammatical errors, and a plot line error I still haven't corrected yet, than this might not be for you.
Also, it's a bit pretentious and dark in a realistic way. Taking the philosophy of consequentialism vs virtue ethics to task and talking heavily on freedom vs complacency. Obvious Libertarian bias, with an early set of chapters giving Communism less than it's fair a shake.
Aside from that, I'd like to think I did alright with it.
Who would like it? Someone who likes freedom, free market economics, and sees that life works on cause and effect, not what is deserved and not deserved, values Justice over Compassion, and evolves to become more objective but still the bias never goes away.
And having male characters who aren't complete wimps to the females in their lives. A trope that was half the reason I wanted to make this story.
8394352
Wait, are you saying libertarianism and free-market economics are better compatible with consequentialism? I thought it was the opposite.
8394641
If you're referring to Utilitarianism, which is based on the bastardization of Consequentialist thought, than allow for this minor explanation:
"I find the phrase 'the ends justify the means' to be a misrepresentation of the Consequentialist world view, for it seeks to demean the agent's views on the means as if they hold no influence upon the ends. A more accurate phrase to embody the philosophy would be this: 'The ends had better damn well justify the means'."
Human beings thrive in freedom and cooperation. Forcing people to work where they are best at, but may not want to, will work... for a while, but eventually and inevitably, their desires for what they want, as opposed to what they are good at, will interfere. For longer term sustainability, and higher quality of life aspirations, allowing people to choose their own path will always garner more beneficial results than trying to enforce via central planning.
I Honestly Just noticed this has been around since 2012....
5-6 Years now...
God damn, Good Job mate- Not many stuck around.
THis looks interesting but 2012 last update... and plans for thIs to continue or is it canceled?
8642876
created in 2012, last update a few months ago.
Not sure if I'll continue or not, I just write when I feel like it.
8643457
Well I feel dumb for miss reading that...
Thank you for the response. Time to start reading!
Can't believe I ignored the philosophical theme of this chapter for some other drivel that popped into my head.
So, in terms of Sin's character, is his belief in consequentialism at least part of what causes him to have so much inner conflict? If so, is that because consequentialists naturally find themselves having to consider the contrast between their own desires and what they see to be pragmatically sensible on occasion (since the ideology as you described it takes not only reality into account but also the personal agency and desires of whoever observes it)?
Or is it because Sin himself simply has issues?
8787364
The former, consequentialism doesn't make decisions, it holds little in the way of moral edicts or deciding what is right or wrong and explaining why.
Consequentialism its more the how, than the why. And when all you know is how with no real reason as to why, what do you have?
8790293
Ah, right. That makes a great deal more sense, cheers. Man, I really need to go over this story again now I've got more free time. Still finding there's a lot to learn from it as well as it obviously being an excellent form of escapism.
Anyway, thanks again for taking the time.
8810600
Ironic, that I find the second half of your first paragraph being unsure of anarchism to be the exact same argument I have against government. LOL.
And 16? Damn, I was 20 at the time.
8888121
Damn, the response notification on this site must be fucking up; I'm only becoming aware of your responses as I re-visit the story's various comment sections.
Just to clarify with your last response- at least I think it was- do you mean you see the illusion of legitimacy given to government as a result of collective incompetence to be part of your argument against it? If so, I suppose my only response would be that even if it's essentially dumb, demand for something still means it gets to continue existing.
8965090
That's exactly what I am saying.
And, it is THE reason Malich is doing what he is doing with the changelings.
If I ever get to finishing this story, it'll be the biggest debate point between he and Sin.
8966040
Ah. Presumably, I'm on Malich's side of the debate then? Shit, now there's an epiphany. Still, I don't think I'd ever create an army of sycophants just to reinforce my own advantage from the essential machinations of the state-populous relationship. Then again, I think it was you who argued that if you want to see a person's true nature, give them power.
Eh, no rush dude. Don't know you personally of course but from what little I've gathered, you're someone whose work is worth waiting for and even if you find you don't have it in you to continue, it's your prerogative. Story's had a decent run thus far anyway.
8966873
It will depend, actually.
With the final climax I had planned, spoiler warning, it would be the ultimate consequentialist conundrum for Sin. The "Better World" of anarchy created through the enforcement of changelings. Who, after the destruction of the economy, would be used to destroy any and all beings who would try to recreate a government. Their service being used until nobody wanted one anymore and the world of anarchy achieved.
On the principal of consequence, it is the only way to achieve a free world, which is what every anarchist wants, especially Sin. but on the principle of that kind of power. The power of an unthinking and absolutely loyal army in the hands of one person...
Yea, I think it will be an interesting conclusion.
What will I have him do? Chase the best chance at a free world that Sin can hope to find? Or have him fight it out of fear of the ultimate fascist dictatorship that would make Stallin and Hitler cream their pants?
8966982
Shit dude, that's a conundrum and a half. I mean, when does anarchy become tyranny and tyranny become anarchy? I forgot that Malich wanted anarchy just as much as Sin does, at least in a sense- I otherwise took him for somewhat of a Machiavellian.
I'd assumed his intentions with the changelings was to aid in some more tangible goal; I mean after all doesn't replacing one group of subordinates with another still produce something resembling a state nation or population- at least if the hierarchy doesn't come about from an entirely consensual and mutually beneficial basis?
Okay, from a twisted version of Consequentialism it makes sense since you could just kill off the changeling army once you'd ascertained that nobody could re-form government and for all the condemnable acts and you becoming-if only briefly- the very thing you ultimately despise in the process, eventually you have something resembling anarchy but then why not just kill off the majority of the existing population instead? You'd inevitably end up having to do so anyway, I'd imagine- far more simple a solution, no?
Sounds interesting and (like you said, assuming you can find it within you to continue) hopefully another conclusive element of the plot to look forward to, in addition to Sin's dealings with the Trotski and that's assuming you cease any further development of Spike, Big Mac and Star Shade which I can't see you doing very easily considering how intertwined their various narratives are. Speaking of which, the story's description seems a tad outdated now, huh?
8967065
That's what the economic collapse is for, to kill of millions as well as destabilize the system. Get rid of food supply lines, and famine will run rampant. Preppers and liberty lovers are very close friends, and the most apt to survive.
At least, that's the logic I'm going with.
But what usually happens after a total collapse of a state? A dictatorial raise to power, one who offers safety and security in exchange for obedience and complacency.
Why not have the prevailing dictator be one who plans to institute anarchy in the only way truly possible? Not through the destruction of hierarchies, but the destruction of institutional aggression and violence?
Hypocrisy? Damn right, but would it be the best course of action to achieve a stateless society? In result? Yes.
Arguementation only works if the other side is willing to disagree without violence, but force and might ultimately determine what is right.
Might makes right, not in morality, but in reality. Sadly.
8967123
Yeah, I meant: why not more deliberately try to kill off the specific group of citizens whose incompetence and likelihood of allure towards a governmental figure is such that they'd undermine any prospect of anarchy (so, again, most of them) and simply use the inevitable collapse as an advantage in doing so?
I guess more specifically my question would be whether or not the changelings in particular are needed; from a logistical point of view anyway; surely an entity like the Triple M Corporation has other resources at its disposal for deliberate cleansing or eugenics- unless of course the nature of the changelings in particular is meant to act as a literary device or archetypal representation of something in which case I'll leave it to you since I have zero talent for writing literature.
EDIT: Ignore this, I'm an idiot; just remembered Triple M isn't Malich's company and he's trying to keep this endeavour off-the-radar.
8967148
Oh, just outright kill them?
A two fold problem.
First, the populace could rally and organize. If they did, Triple M. Would fall, easily. As powerful as they are, they are not indestructible and work off of the complacency of the citizenry. As do all government like organizations.
And secondly, and more importantly, that would muddy the waters. If you have a government commit democide, it'll turn the very people you want as the inherites of the new world into the first to die to stop it. And those who would otherwise be killed for wanting the state would join ranks with the anti government types until it was time to reestablish society.
Life worship is very ingrained into people, protecting the weak and incapable as if it were a virtue is one of the pillars of western society. To think it's destruction would go unabated by those with empathy is foolish, don't you think? After all, acceptance of anarchy will take time, or so I would imagine.
As far as deeper arch types go, I'm no Jordan Peterson. That kind of writing is well beyond me. Lol
8967204
Hah, yeah. I keep forgetting important variables. If Triple M presented itself as obviously hostile to everyone's interests, they could just be stripped of their power and resources and incidentally there'd be an incentive to take away their resources anyway since they could just be re-distributed amongst the populace anyway. Yeah that was really foolish of me.
That's what I get for trying to humour mental projections I don't subscribe to and have obvious flaws anyway, I guess. I'll try to take these discussions more seriously in future.
8967284
Lol, sorry, didn't see any indicationsof humor. That shut its hard to get through text.
But yea, as far as the outdated description goes? It kinda is, isn't it?
8967305
Well, point is I made some stupid errors here and I think only ended up wasting your time for the latter portion if the discussion. Sorry dude.
The introduction outlines an important part of the story, don't get me wrong but given how important to the plot Sin is now he doesn't get much of an introduction of his own. Then again, maybe that's relevant considering the enigmatic nature of his character.