What Makes a Good Crossover? · 9:37pm Apr 23rd, 2015
Just today I finished reading a crossover story (which, curiously, has not been tagged as such). After finishing it, I came away with mixed feelings about the story. I didn't know the source material at all, but after finishing the story I decided to study said source material. I discovered, to my chagrin, that the author had ripped 80% of his plot directly from the source material, changing things up only by making the Mane 6 the central characters. Two problems here:
1) Repeating the original story almost exactly is hardly a mark of creativity and severely hurts the crossover in my eyes. It feels like a really lazy way to go about doing things.
2) The Mane 6 were not actually the Mane 6. Oh, they had the names and the history, but beyond that they were the characters from the original source with pony names. Not a single one acted even remotely in-character (despite the author's insistence otherwise).
This got me to wondering about the nature of crossovers. I've read a few decent ones – Siren Song is an exemplary example of the genre. Yet at the same time, that's just from my interpretation of what a 'good' crossover is. To me, a good crossover holds on to themes from the original source, but uses them in new ways. It may take the characters of each source and blend them believably. I don't think throwing a bunch of characters into a single world and making them interact is necessarily a good recipe.
But then we come upon a question of types; if a story uses the themes of a source but none of the characters, is it really a crossover? Or is it just a tribute? At what point does a tribute shift into crossover material? If the story replicates the events of the original precisely – like the story I just read – but doesn't actually use any of the characters, is it still a crossover or is it just blatant plot theft (even when the author acknowledges the source)?
I have very little experience with crossovers, and I'm planning to write one in the distant future. Hence, my interest: what is it to you that makes a crossover 'good?'
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in my humble opinion, there are 2 types of crossovers, both with badly written and well written examples (though none that pop up off the top of my head).
The first is the Character Interaction crossover. Some plot shenanigans causes characters from fiction world A to fiction world B (World A + World B = World B+A. Shenanigans ensue with lots of references to the world doing the crossing. Pinkie 4th wall breaks referencing stuff she can't possible know about World A is quite common here. They're usually meant to be fun, rompy sort of stories, purely there for fun and the many possible "what-if"s that usually predate and inspire said crossover.
The second is the Tribute or Mash-up crossover. These types are like the example you gave above. They are less of a crossover and more of an infusion of World A into World B (World A x World B = World AB), and the possible implications of said combination. Such stories usually feature lots of OC characters, and lots of worldbuilding and RE-devolpment of established characters to suit the new setting and history. Themes, ideas, and technology from both worlds will be prevalent and/or retrofitted to fit (hopefully without destroying what made them unique in the first place.)
I'm far from a crossover conneisseur, but in my opinion a crossover should make good use of its canon characters from both works. You can't just dump the mane six in in place of other characters. Secondly, it really should write an original story. If your crossover doesn't affect the plot much, what's the point of it? Thirdly, I think a good crossover fic should have a reason to exist. You can't just pull a work out of a hat and say 'imma add ponies to this!' There should be something unique you're trying to convey, that has made you pick this crossover in the first place. You might think 'how would X react to this?' Or 'X and Y would have some funny interactions.' You get the picture
Like most things, it all depends on the execution.
I don't normally care for X character goes to Y type crossovers, but I've read some that were done well and I enjoyed.
Retelling type crossovers where the Mane 6 or whoever star in the plot of X, can often be done pretty blandly and offer nothing new, but I've also seen it pulled off well, where the characters were used in interesting ways and pulled the story in new directions because of it.
And the fusion type, where the crossover is combining two settings, or taking the thematic elements from one or the other is rarer and a lot holder to pull off, but usually ends up the strongest and most memorable. I'd like to think that's what I accomplished with my own.
Heh, I'm writing a crossover just as you described. As SorenPixels noted, it's more of a fusion than a crossover. It's a tricky thing to do right without boring the reader or making them say to themselves, "Why don't I just play/watch the source this is based off of?"
I can't claim to be perfect at it. However, it does allow me to write the story from different perspectives and twist expectations. I think that's the main reason I do it: taking an established series and adapting it to both please and surprise the readers.
It's a mixed bag, to be sure.
Crossovers are tough to do right, especially because one person will want to see an aspect of the crossover-ed story over another... and not to mention there's several types of crossovers, such as the thematic, the amalgamation, the character-out-of-place, etc. but I think overall you hit the nail in the head with your two points. The key is balance.
First of all, the characters have to be themselves unless it's an amalgamation, in which case there's some leeway, but even then, you want your mane characters to be recognizable. Just because a character is named Fluttershy, it doesn't mean she's going to be herself if she acts like Akane 'freaking' Tendo.
Personally, I like the character-out-of-place approach a lot more. It let's you keep the protagonist(s) vanilla or as vanilla as you can, while giving them the opportunity to evolve in a completely different place. You are also forced to introduce the world through their eyes as well, giving you a convenient 'Watson' to give the readers information without being too overbearing or neglectful. You get to use the local characters as well within their own world and personalities.
Another important thing which a lot of people that write crossovers really forget to do is to have a final aim. Now, I'm not saying this is your case, but one of the many downfalls from crossovers is that the authors run out of ideas to work with because they just wanted to see what would happen if X arrived in Y.
If you want a couple of character-out-of-place crossovers to take a look, here's:
Stardust by Arad and Sparkle's No. 1 Assistant by yours truly.
There's also indirect crossovers, like what I was doing with Saints, although I haven't given much attention to it, those are basically an aspect of another world seeps into Equestria kinda thing... and I have others, but they're non-pony so irrelevant to this site.
Amalgamations are somewhat easier, depending on what you're doing if you don't use any of the mane cast, but you know, it can still be done, and I'm sure you'd be more than up to the challenge. The classic example here is of course, Fallout Equestria by Kkat... the thing is, once you have the setting, you can write anything there and still have it feel and be relevant to the source materials. Another good example is the Equestrian Equation by Loyal2Luna.
And the last one I will mention is the Multiverse fic, which has different ways of doing it. I can't think of many that I know of, so I'll again post two of mine just as examples: The Sweetie Chronicles (single character, several fanfic-worlds) & Lyra's Quest (group of characters through completely different universes).
Anyway, hope that helped a little!
I'm yet to find a good crossover, except for the what I've read of FO:E.
But if you must, how about a Civ V crossover? That sounds challenging.
What was the name of the crossover story?
After deliberating on the question for a little while (and going through a couple of strange phases - notably "is fan-fiction a type of crossover fiction?"), I arrived to the conclusion that (a) "crossover" is a very poorly defined term, and (b) I should not be allowed to define things without supervision.
One thing I did salvage from this experience was that judging MLP crossovers should be no different from judging fan-fiction in general. After all, if fanfiction is about taking existing concepts in order to explore them in a different context or to show them under a different light, then this is especially true for crossover fiction.
On a personal note, I prefer crossovers that blend source elements instead of simply importing them, as I find that those tend towards more interesting scenarios and settings.
(Haven't read the other replies yet, so here is my unalloyed opinion.) A good crossover takes ideas from two different works and makes something new.
The ideas are usually characters, but not strictly (e.g., HPMOR, below). The ideas (characters) have to remain fairly true to their source material because what's interesting is the juxtaposition -- the distinct contrast between the two sources, and the interplay that generates. If they bend too much, you lose that contrast and the tie to the original source.
Second, the best crossovers build a new story rather than rehashing old ground. When a good crossover does repeat an event from one source, it does it in a strikingly different way because of the incorporation of the other source.
Also, good crossovers should not require knowledge of the source material. That is, you should be able to enjoy it even if you don't know one of the sources. However, if a reader loves the source material, they have a tendency to be forgiving of story faults and can be perfectly happy rehashing the same old story. This can make separating a "good crossover" from a "poor crossover I really liked" a bit tricky.
Example good crossovers:
The first good crossover that comes to mind is Crossed Paths by The Rogue Wolf. This one has Indiana Jones, Samurai Jack, and MLP. It's a new story: they all get sucked into a pocket universe to solve a problem, so there's no predefined plot. I'm not familiar with Samurai Jack, but I got by just fine. The characters maintain their identities. There's a lot of fighting bad guys, so you have to accept the (possible) character tweak that the ponies will fight when desperate, but each character fights according to their source character. The ponies don't use guns, but Indy does; Twilight eventually flings the spent bullet casings. Old Indy has limited stamina so the ponies help him. Applejack kicks; Fluttershy hides and works with animals; Pinkie pinkies (she pulls off a great one which I'll not spoil). Finally, juxtaposition: the scene that really made this story for me was when Applejack and Indiana Jones share a moment connecting over their shared loss of their parents.
Another good crossover is Pericynthion by Skystrider. It's an Ender's Game / MLP crossover. Nightmare Moon sucks Ender over to Equestria after the main evens of Ender's Game; from there the story diverges from both canons. There's new story of Ender's contribution to NMM's takedown and Ender's survival while lost in Equestria. There's also juxtaposition and analysis of Ender's crimes and Luna's crimes. My opinion may be colored by source material love here, though.
The Wizard and the Lonely Princess by Harry Leferts puts Harry Potter in contact with banished Luna and Nightmare Moon for many years before Harry goes to Hogwarts, which changes things.
Stardust by Arad is a XCOM / Twilight Sparkle crossover. I'm not familiar with XCOM but it was interesting seeing scared and lonely Twilight making friends and changing the attitudes and battle-readiness of the militant and xenophobic humans of XCOM.
I must mention Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality by Eliezer Yudkowsky as an example of a good crossover of an idea rather than a character. Here, Harry has a very "scientific", rational mindset, which gets applied to the craziness of the wizarding world. Rather than being a complete deconstruction of the Potterverse, the story also gets a DADA teacher who can match Harry's mind, and the result is very intense. Again, the source ideas clearly there and intact, but juxtaposed to create a new story.
In a sense, most good fan fiction stories are crossovers. (I kept thinking of great stories, and then realizing, wait, that's not really a crossover.) They take a great idea or character from the author's head and juxtapose that with characters from an existing universe. The story is best when there's a striking contrast of ideas and a new, relevant plot. Which is just to say, everything you clearly already know about writing a good fan fiction story applies to a crossover. It's just that your characters and background come from more than one predefined universe.
I had a very similar experience when reading The Equus Club. Halfway through I took a break so I could rewatch the movie, and when I returned I couldn't help but compare everything to its counterpart. The characters did fit, and the story was written very well, but too much of it was a repeat. I mean maybe it's more of a "tribute" than a "crossover" but it still left me with very mixed feelings.
I once had this dumb idea to crossover MLP and Matsumoto Taiyo's Ping Pong. Rainbow Dash can be Peco, and Fluttershy can be Smile; it fits the characters so perfectly! Then I realized the original story was already brilliant enough, I couldn't add anything to it besides pointing out some funny similarities, so I dropped it.
I can't help but think of crossovers as nothing more than affectionate parody. So much of the early MLP fandom was built on that, with matching show clips to movies, modding games to include ponies, etc. It's a bit easier for it to work on that level, even if I'm unfamiliar with the secondary work I can maybe look it up and have a quick laugh. More serious themes? Well now I have to actually care about this other work just to get myself invested. If I've never seen it then I'll fear getting spoilers, or just lost because everything's flying over my head.
The most interesting crossover I've seen was some online comic combining Powerpuff Girls and R-Type Final. A very bizarre combination, but it was used somewhat seriously instead of for direct parody. Like, "let's roll with this and see what we can do in this setting!" I guess it worked, in a weird way. It didn't have to excuse itself, it just took the crossover as a given and went forward into uncharted territory.
In a way I think that's what I want from a serious crossover. In the same way that MLP fics can be confident and full of potential to explore just about anything, I think a crossover idea should match up to that aura. I don't want one predictable story, where anybody could've plugged ponies into other_thing and got nearly the same result. Even the most mediocre MLP fics show more creativity than that.
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Wow, lots of feedback here. It's nice to see so many opinions, this helps a ton. Thanks guys! I'll try to keep all of this in mind as I work on my own crossover, although I won't be doing so for a little while yet.
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Nah, the one I'm planning is for Silent Hill. I have considered doing Civilization-themed stories in the past, and it would most certainly be challenging, but I always decided they weren't worth it.
3010966
It'll pop up in one of my Monday reviews. You'll find out then.
Another good crossover of an unusual type: Higher Flier by AdmiralTigerclaw . In this case, the crossover is an SR-71 Blackbird with MLP. It's an idea crossover. The author makes a pegasus OC with the advantages and disadvantages of the Blackbird, which get juxtaposed with Rainbow "Fastest Flier in Equestria" Dash, and proceeds to tell an new and interesting story.
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Oh, I remember thinking a Silent Hill crossover would be pretty interesting back when I started reading mlp fiction, but totally forgot all about it since. I am certainly looking forward to reading your take on it.
As someone who is both writing a crossover and reads a copious amount of them, I can say that the answer to your question is twofold: first and foremost, it should be a good story; the characters should be dynamic and change in consequece to their actions, there should be a conflict, whether external or internal. You know, common sense stuff.
The second part my answer pertains only to crossovers as I believe it pertains to them. So this is somewhat subjective. But a good crossover should be accessible to new readers whom aren't familiar with the source material, but at the same time, posses enough elements from the source for those readers that are. It's as 3010844 said: balance. But it's not an easy balance to achieve, usually left to the author's discretion.
A good micro example of this would be in my story A Dark Knightmare, when Bruce tells Luna that he's been attacked in his dreams before, and leaves it at that. Any longtime Batman fans will know that I'm referencing Doctor Destiny, and they don't need to have him explained to them. Readers who don't have an in-depth knowledge of Batman's more obscure villains don't get the reference, but are still informed as to why Batman is taking the attack in stride.
A macro example would be your own Twilight's Inferno. To be frank, most of the people on this site who read that story have not the slightest foreknowledge of the source material, but that problem was a nonentity, because you took the source material and made it your own. But for people who have read Dante's Inferno, that story was a fucking treat! The horror that came from such a vivid description of Hell is replaced by horror at what Twilight's undergoing; Sunset Shimmer taking the role of both Virgil and Beatrice, and ponies taking the roles of demons, and finally, replacing renowned and reviled historical figures with both protagonists and antagonists of the show. Obsolete political satires were replaced with macabre twists on fandom tropes. For the average reader, these elements were taken at face value, but for me, it added an entire layer of depth to the story. Seeing a story that I'm so familiar with told through the filter of pastel ponies, told in such a way that it was fundamentally different from that story, has been one of the highlights of my time here.
In summation, I'm trying to say is that a good crossover uses its source material to add a layer of depth for those that are familiar with it, without being detrimental to those that aren't.
I usually don't touch crossovers to be honest. I can only think of one crossover (aside from FO:E) off the top of my head, and it's MIA by Gravitys Rainboom.
Unfortunately it's not yet complete, but I do rather enjoy it when a new chapter comes out.