The doors were open, and the makeshift auditorium was beginning to fill up. Carmel had already taken his seat behind the speakers, along with the rest of the campaign staff. It was pretty loud, with many conversations occurring at once. The room was already approaching capacity, and the line didn't seem to be getting any shorter. It was shaping up to be a standing-room only affair.
Twilight was just about to take her seat near the back when she was hailed by a friend.
"Twilight, darling, how good to see you here. Come on, I have an extra seat handy!" the Element of Generosity shouted, barely audible over the roar of the crowd.
"Rarity!" Twilight made her way down to the front, and the two shared an embrace. "You were saving me a seat?"
"Of course, Twilight. I knew with absolute certainty that you would show up to this thing, and I figured since I helped set up the place, I might as well reserve a seat for you." Rarity responded as the two took their seats. "Unfortunately, it appears that we are the only two Elements who will be making an appearance today."
"It's just us?" Twilight cocked an eyebrow.
"It used to be just me. Applejack thinks debates are a waste of time, Pinkie Pie always has something or other to plan, Rainbow Dash came once and was asleep before the thing even started, and Fluttershy doesn't do so well in crowds. I find the entire thing fascinating, and I love to listen to the two candidates duke it out for my vote." She exhaled. "Although I admit," with this she looked around, "This is a larger crowd than we usually draw."
Twilight nodded. "There are some important things on the ballot this year. I bet that has something to do with it."
Rarity nodded. "That rabble-rouser Carmel has been up to his old tricks again this year. He even has a seat in this auditorium." She pointed to where he was conversing with Golden Harvest, behind the Moon podium.
"Rabble-rouser? Carmel has always struck me as the kind of stallion that would avoid such... 'rabble'." Twilight said, in her most unsure tone.
"By the by, Twilight, I've heard from a few... sources... that you have become a little bit involved with this, *ahem*, 'Stallions Rights Movement', as they choose to call it. Some even say that you 'converted' Rainbow Dash, leading to the commission from Cloudsdale. Please tell me these are simply nasty rumors. It wouldn't be the first time the Foal Free Press misled me on important details." Rarity's eyes caught Twilight's, and a moment of silence ensued as the latter tried to come up with a response.
"No, that's basically correct. I talked to Dash, and got her to see her stance wasn't valid. I hardly consider that a "nasty" story, Rarity." Twilight said, her tone darkening.
Rarity nodded, slowly, once or twice. "You do realize the implications of the bill passing, I hope." She spoke in a cold, measured tone.
"Implications?" Twilight raised an eyebrow. "What in the wide, wide world of Equestria are you referring to?"
Rarity fake smiled. "Well, for starters, many precepts in the Ponyville charter would need to be re-written. The Ponyville Constitution in effect would become outdated. Now think hard, Twilight. Who would the job of re-writing the Constitution fall to? What provision is there?"
A moment passed as Twilight searched her knowledge of the constitution. "I can't think of one."
"Precisely my point. There is an amendment process, but the amount of amendments and repeals required to comply with the bill as written would take time. Time and organization. An infrastructure that Ponyville simply does not have."
"But... the purpose of voting is to tackle the big issues, and let the government find a way to implement them." Twilight responded, quickly.
"This brings me to my second issue. Twilight, you will have to simply trust me when I say this: I have known Carrot since we were foals. She is a slimy, no-good, dirty, uncouth, unladylike ruffian who cares about nopony but herself. I wouldn't vote for her if she was the last pony on earth. She is running on the Stallions Rights platform, correct?"
Twilight's voice was weak. "Correct."
"I do not trust that mare any further than I can throw her." She stopped for a moment. "No, scratch that. I don't trust her any further than Snails could throw her. She is bad news. My issue is this: in implementing this new infrastructure, how many chances will Carrot get to try and 'back-door' in her own agenda?"
"But... But the Princess would not stand for any sort of abuse of power, especially a self-serving one. Surely she would intervene if something crazy happened."
"And that would effectively end Ponyville's Democratic Experiment." Rarity finished. "We would end up just like Manehatten, with a royally-appointed mayor." She nodded. "I cannot support Carrot Top, and stallions as well-intentioned as Carmel don't realize the implications of their actions."
Twilight closed her eyes for a moment, processing. Carrot Top? Could it be she is playing the whole town? Are we really that gullible? Or... She slowly opened her eyes once more, and began to refute.
"Rarity, I know you. You are smarter than this. There are multiple issues with that argument, the first being it hinges on a fallacy: 'Slippery Slope'. In your argument, you basically say that Carrot Top's election means the end of democracy."
"I didn't-"
"Let me finish." Twilight cut her off. "Secondly, the fact that the Princess hasn't intervened in this whole 'Stallions Rights' mess and brought Ponyville up to date on par with the other cities is proof that she is taking a more 'hooves-off' approach to Ponyville. You can't possibly convince me that she would completely suspend democracy, not unless Carrot Top declared herself Princess of Ponyville."
"But if you just-"
"And, there are alternatives to simply letting the mayor run the gambit. We could create a council, or even an oversight committee. A bill being passed does not give an official the right to suspend democracy, and in a place as small as this it should be quite obvious if something that serious is happening."
Rarity was staring at the ground at this point. There was no response from her.
"So Rarity, I want to ask you. Really. Why are you against this?"
Rarity sighed deeply, and paused a moment before beginning to speak. "I suppose my argument could have been a little better thought out."
"So, there's something else?" An awkward pause.
Rarity perked up. "I believe there is somepony trying to get your attention, Twilight." She said, pointing.
Directly behind Twilight stood a large, imposing stallion. He wore a suit and sunglasses, which gave him the appearance of a high-scale bouncer.
"Miss Sparkle?" He said in a gruff tone. His eyes were imperceptible through his sunglasses, and he was completely stoic. "The Mayor would like to speak to you. In private." From his tone, Twilight could tell he was not there to argue.
"Is something wrong?" She ventured, as calmly as she could. In response, she got nothing but silence, his expressionless face revealing neither anger nor malice. After a short moment of silence, Twilight finally nodded. "I trust the mayor." She smiled at her friend. "I'll be with you in a moment."
She stood up and followed the stallion behind the curtain, and out of sight. Rarity simply sat there, lost in thought. Why don't I just tell her?
---
Carrot Top nodded at Carmel thoughtfully, as they stood behind the curtain. "I will certainly try my best. But I am a political candidate, not an evangelist. I can't make my entire platform about this one issue."
He nodded. "I get that. I'm just letting you know, I made a little speech outside. They seemed receptive."
"Thank you." Carrot Top smiled. "Hey, I just want to give you a heads-up."
"What about?"
"The nature of politics means I may have to... "soften the message". It's part of appealing to a broader audience. I just want to let you know, if it seems like I am 'straddling the fence', it's just because I am 'playing to the crowd'. I'm with you guys all the way, even when it sounds like I'm not."
Carmel shifted uncomfortably. "That doesn't seem totally honest..."
"That's politics. You have to be willing to bend the truth a bit, or you'll never get anywhere. You know what I mean?" Her expression softened. "Hey, this doesn't change anything. Let me buy you dinner afterwards."
He smiled back. "And after that?"
She laughed. "Who knows? I missed you more than you know, Carmel."
He nodded. "I just don't know why we can't tell anypony about... us. I'm sure there is a good reason?"
She nodded. "Just until this nasty election is over. Then we'll go public. Might even get engaged." She beamed.
He laughed. "Who can possibly wait that long, hmm?" He leaned in and planted a peck on her cheek.
She blushed. "Can't you at least wait until afterwards? I don't want anypony to see us."
He didn't even think to ask why.
Wow. I guess this politics aren't all sweet in Ponyville. Good luck with the next chapter. This should be great. Thanks for the update.
I wanted to hear why Rarity was really against Stallion's rights. Maybe next chapter.
Why do I get the feeling I'm going to want to Break the Mayor like a Kit Kat Bar soon?
Also, cookie to whoever gets that reference.
5331949
Must have something to do with her father
5331949
I dunno; I get the sense that Mayor Mare is really the optimist candidate in this whole debacle. I mean, she originally ran with "votes for stallions" in mind, and I really believe she wanted to pursue that agenda, but that the powers that be decided that if she did, then they would just block the measures, along with every other measure she tried to pass. It would make her a totally ineffectual mayor, and she would never be elected again, leaving her to choose between doing some good, and doing no good.
If she at least cemented herself as a good mayor, then maybe later she could try to get them votes again, when she had more support from the public, or had time to try to influence public perception. The political realities remain true: The parties most vigorously opposed to changing the charter are the ones who would lose their privileged positions if it were changed.
Rip the system.
You know, with the way things are set up and such, it seems Ponyville is attempting to be it's own country. It has it's own laws, it's own prejudiced. Hell, if you're male, you have to get a permit to leave whenever you wish. How the buck did Celestia just let this happen? She saw Ponyville grow. She gave the Apples the land and the resources. As well, there have got to be ponies from other parts of the country coming in now and again as tourists. Surely they would voice their dissent of the place.
Though, it was cute with the last little bit.
5332061
I somehow don't see it, especially if you look at the earlier chapter that shows her talking to someone who is convincing her to try to blackmail Twilight to keep her from helping stallions win the right to vote. I just hope Twilight doesn't go in for said blackmail and alerts Celestia about the attempt. Which would mean whoever got the Mayor to try to Blackmail Celestia's friggin' student is in BIG fucking trouble if she does.
Numero dos: That... Doesn't hold up to scrutiny. In Hurricane Fluttershy, it is Ponyville's turn to provide water to Cloudsdale, with Fillydelphia being the previous town to do so. So unless you would also place Filly as a town within the Ponyville region, then there is little reason for Cloudsdale to have treated these two towns equally within your head canon, but if you would place Filly within Greater Ponyville then I would wonder just how many cities and towns are also within, especially because by most appearances Ponyville is a rather unimpressive size.
The good news is that you don't need to change anything within your story if you don't want to, regardless of whether you come to agree with me, as Cloudsdale appear to have a lot of control over weather throughout Equestria, and so some political influence from the city can be reasonable with or with out being an explicit part of Ponyville.
A "hoofs-off" approach. That's a kind way of saying that Celestia has allowed the government to either become so weak as to be unable to enforce the law, or so corrupt as to be unwilling to enforce it. Either way, as she is depicted in this story, she has likely lost all respect from those who are paying attention to the situation.
Why doesn't Ponyville just declare themselves an independent nation? They'd get just as much input from higher government and no longer be required to pretend to follow the law of the land.
I'm sorry if that comes across as over-aggressive. I've been reading this for a long time and none of the explanations have come even close to excusing the actions of almost everyone here. I like AU; and if properly explained sure, make Twilight the goddess of necromancy or Applejack secretly a changeling queen. But here, it's either not penetrating or very poorly justified.
5332119
The fact that they were "convincing" the mayor rather than blackmailing her should be all the evidence we need of the amount of leverage they have over that particular office.
You have, however, just gotten me thinking that Carrot Top running is just a way for "them" to stack the deck, if she really is as lacking in ethics as we are being led to believe. If Mare wins, then stallions' rights are a nonissue because she's been "advised" not to pursue them. If Carrot Top wins, then stallions' rights are a nonissue because she'll disregard them right out of the gate.
Democracy, like capitalism, is incapable of correctly functioning in the larger societal framework without checks on power. Without such checks, the social elites always make their way to the top of the pile, and then twist the system around to make sure they stay there at the expense of everyone else.
Where does everyone get their education of politics from? Seriously, it's like they were handed a pamphlet of rudimentary government structure and a pat on the head. Even the ones who were put in specific positions could honestly care less about how the lives around them are so vastly different. Rainbow Dash holds power but sees it as below her, AJ is set in her ways and Rarity's little speech strikes me as odd. She acted like she knew what was going to happen if stallions did get rights but it was obvious she was oblivious as the rest of the town. I wanna say conspiracy so that the local populace doesn't realize what's going on but I don't think it really runs that deep, Mayor Mare doesn't seem that clever enough plan out that far.
5332245 YES. I know it's not exactly a positive way to feel, but really, it gets more of a reaction out of me than other bad things. Prejudice just invokes hatred in me. I feel so alive.
#ponygate
Too soon?
5332296 Perhaps a tad.
5332191
yes but what do you suspect when there is a conspiracy but the persons involved are too incompetent? higher ups, that's whp
Response to this updating...
5331949
DBZ Abridged Goku vs Freiza
Mmmm cookies!
5332187
What makes you think she'll disregard them out of the gate if she wins?
5332419
We have a winner!
The cookies are peanut butter and chocolate chip. Enjoy.
MAYOR MARE HAS SPIKE HELD HOSTAGE!!!!
Or something. Maybe she'll threaten to burn Twilight's tree.
Whatever. It's going to involve blackmail,that's for sure.
im still waiting for a riot
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5332482
I have nothing but speculation to base that assumption on, I admit. But if she is as much of a slime ball as Rarity suggests, then she'll definitely disregard them out of the gate if that's what the kickbacks decree.
Again, if.
5332576
I dunno. Given that Rarity, Applejack, and Rainbow Dash all discriminate against Caramel (Though Dash has since come around) due to wanting stallions to have the right to vote, I tend to wonder if Rarity is simply projecting that discriminatory view on anyone who is seemingly supportive of it.
5332587
I doubt it. She said clearly that she's known Carrot Top since they were both very young, so I don't think it's that.
Now, it could certainly be some other event that has unfairly colored Rarity's perceptions, and it's certainly been hinted that Rarity's unwillingness to give stallions the vote is not just because it's not tradition, but because of some other, possibly logical reason.
Which is to say that we will be able to follow the steps in her reasoning and understand how she came to her conclusion, even if that conclusion is not rational: Her argument may very well be valid (logically follows all premises, even if one or more are not true), even if it is not particularly sound (valid, and all premises are true).
5332635
It would depend on whether or not Carrot Top has changed from when they were kids. Plus, CT seems to have a thing for Caramel, oddly enough. Time will tell if that's legit or a scam she's pulling. So if CT is on the up and up, she may sign that bill Mayor Mare had into law as her first act.
5332763
The implication I took is that she hasn't changed, but as you said, it remains to be seen.
Still, I'm saying it now; Carrot Top's only current interest in the Stallions' Rights Movement is increasing its retail value.
5332799
Could be. Have to see what develops.
OH FUCK YES, BEST STORY IDEA IS BACK ON!!!!!
5332635
Logical reasons to be prejudiced against an entire gender do not exist.
5332799 Well, Rarity could be lying to try and sway Twilight, here.
Anyway, at this point I'm kinda hoping Celestia and/or Luna and give Applejack the ultimate 'reason you suck' speech at this point.
5333599
Sure there are. Those arguments just happen to rely on premises which are not true, and therefore lead to incorrect conclusions.
I'm not totally certain, but it appears that you have equated "logic" with "truth," which is not correct. To be logical, an argument simply needs to follow from premise to conclusion, and thus, be valid; validity is not concerned with truth.
That said, there certainly are no good, sound reasons for prejudice based on sex; as stated above, any arguments in favor of prejudice rely on flawed premises. They may be logical, but they will never be true.
It appears that everything is suddenly twisting in upon itself. Usually in cases like this, there will be those who withhold votes on the grounds that neither side is worth it (in addition to those who normally abstain from apathy or lack of caring). But that is not what your going for isnt it? The nature of the lie instead is going to make things more interesting overall.
5333599
Firstly it is sex not gender, secondly there are! Is a male the same as a female? Do they have differences that are more than just superficial? If you answer yes to both of these than there are reasons to be prejudiced.
Okay, that's... ominous. That's exactly what she'd say if she was trying to claim support for multiple agendas at once.
5332158
If Ponyville were to declare themselves a sovereign nation, it would incite civil war as other towns and cities would follow suit... loyalists against the defected.
I can not express the joy I felt when I saw this story had been updated, I love it
5334498 Uh, no, that isn't how logic works. You do not get to call it logically sound if you view one gender of humans as lesser because one gives birth and one doesn't.
5334093
A logical argument doesn't rely on unsound premises. If it does, it's illogical.
5334498
That didn't even make any sense. According to that horrible line of thinking, we all have logical reasons to be prejudiced against everyone that isn't ourselves.
5335588 Thank you for handling that much more eloquently than I probably ever would've.
5334923
Yes, but I'm saying they kind of already are. With a few exceptions it seems like the populace of Ponyville views the laws of Equestria as not worth the paper they're written on. As several others pointed out, this means that at best, the entire leadership of the town are criminals; at worst, most of its citizens are. And worst of all, the Equestrian government is allowing them to get away with it. So, either they are their own nation and Celestia just hasn't told them, or something needs to be done.
You say you are not dead, good sir, but I still retain some doubts!
Why don't you completely disprove those nasty "he's a zombie who likes dem brains" rumours by releasing another chapter in a timely manner?
5336162 What if I am a zombie?
5335588
A "valid argument" is not the same thing as a "sound argument": An argument is valid just if its conclusion follows logically from its premises, regardless of whether those premises are true; validity is independent from truth. An argument is sound if and only if its conclusion follows logically from its premises, and its premises are true; soundness is dependent on truth.
That said, I really do believe that you and I are of the same mind that social prejudice based on sex can only be justified using premises that are not true, i.e. the justification of social prejudice based on sex is itself based on lies, and I am only following this argument over semantics because someone is wrong on the Internet.
As an example, I feel we can agree that it is perfectly sensible to incorporate prejudice based on sex w/ regards to things that are proven to be influenced directly by a person's sex (but not when that influence is due to social pressures and expectations due to a person's sex), but not in cases where there is no causal link between sex and the thing to be prejudiced. I can think of very few things where it would make sense, and those few things tend to be medical procedures that require certain anatomy to be present.
To draw a more specific example, since it has been shown that a person's sex does not affect their ability to make rational judgements (again, not accounting for social or environmental factors), there is no justification to deny a person the vote because of their sex; prejudice in this case may have a basis in social tradition, but clearly has no basis in reality, and therefore cannot be justified.
At the very least, I have yet to hear a single argument for such a policy that is both convincing and based on facts that are actually facts, as opposed to datapoints that have been misinterpreted or stuff that people just made up.
5336609 Then you are an unholy abomination against GoooOOooood and the Baby Jeebus and will be done away with immediately after you finish the story and maybe one or two follow-ups.
5336809
That's the same reason I'm following this argument. That bring said, are you arguing with the actual definition of the word logic? It must be based on valid reasoning. There is no valid reasoning for prejudice. Ergo, there is no logical reason for prejudice.
The medical example isn't quite prejudice, really, any more than the requirement of having arms is a requirement for arm wrestling.
5337133 At the pace this story is updating...
I have a few years left at least.
5337304
When you say "valid reasoning," are you speaking of validity or of soundness? I think this is where our crires are wossed.
5337645
I'm simply using the definition.
5337978
I've been using the technical definition, but see no reason not to use yours going forward. I can specify if a clarification is needed.
5334588 That's how presidents get into office...then they do what they wanted to do all along.
This can only end in tears.