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I love the worldbuilding going on here.
7425883
Yeah, I mean as a man I can confirm with utmost certainty that some males are subs.
Yep, 50/50 was good/evil seems right. The fact that money=power is a HUGE red flag but everything seems to optinaioal, so those things balance out.
Interesting worldbuilding, though I do see a place where SSC seems to be violated; the dominant is set as the one who can control how much and what type of output, but the sub's side isn't limited via prior negotiation, only by safeword. IMO, the SSC way to take that would be to have the sub-- probably through an enchantment in the collar-- be able to set maximum settings that they're willing to tolerate. A mismatch could be typed on the output device; ie, if this isn't acceptable to play the dom wants, they'd need to decide if they want to continue having a relationship; if whoever's enforcing the subs' rights and safeword respect sees a pattern of repeatedly pushing limits and subs adjusting themselves after mismatches, that could be pretty strong evidence that someone is subverting the spirit and possibly the letter of Clocktower law, and needs to be investigated or have their dom rights revoked.
It might be something you're planning on including later, but as much as I'm enjoying a lot of the work, it is coming off as a 'for doms' mentality rather than SSC in some places. Of course, since it's got an element of 'real' to it, it's not going to be perfect, and since these are IC docs, the flavor of the in-scene mentality may be primary. I guess that's one of the reasons I'm following with interest rather than favoriting yet; I want to see if the pitfalls of society-based kink are showing up before it gets filed under "Yes, it's so NICE to see other SSC work out there!" Caveat: It's already under the yay, mission statement in that direction and mmmm kinky crosstabs. :)
This, incidentally, is why I treat full-lifestyle as opposed to lifestyle elements as a part of socialization as suspect in my own work, because it does tend to increase actual power in the dom's hands rather than maintaining a stable equilibrium of exchange. In my Orange fic, the dom's entreaties and push-play are strictly within prior consent and discussion, and he's got no mechanism other than directly applying magic to enforce his will; attempting to do so would destroy their thirty year marriage as well as get him in serious trouble. The alicorns in Hunting Season and Twilight's Thrones are driven by hard instincts, but the training chain from Celestia through Twilight reinforces strict responsibility and accountability, and I'm throwing in references to prediscussion and limits.
An internal society-locked currency system. Love it! I've always loved the idea of something like a shadowy organization having internally traded guilders for internal matters and debts (though I extended it to being precious metals, and the value pegged to a generous exchange on the commodities markets I'm a dork even in subjects I don't like, like economics.)
More and more I am growing g to love this and see it as the angel of better nature compared to Equestrian Trainers Society. You are truly cream of the crop.
The more I see the more I'd love to put a character in this place. Probably an aw-shucks dork of a natural top who has no idea what's going on.
7427326
Power tends to consolidate upward in all cases, which is why I had such a bad taste in my mouth over BDSM for such a long time. It is structured to seem anti-prole and as a tool for the privileged. Only the rich and powerful could play the games with any regularity and focus. I understand better now, but your comment reminded me that my analysis was not completely build on a jaded or cynical plsition.
*begins bowing at your writing skills* I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy
7426331
Oh good, you get it. I was worried for a minute there.
Although in my head the scene with the guards plays out a little differently: Twilight gets directed to a visitor's center so her sponsor can pick her up there (First rule of secure areas: Don't let guests walk around unattended!). Twilight then ducks out of it without signing in because she doesn't believe she has a legitimate sponsor.
These lore entries are hilarious!
"Well, yes."
7427326 I actually considered having something like the collar modulating the phaser's settings. But then I thought 'just how far am I going to stretch this thing's convenience before it gets ridiculous? It's already plenty ridiculous as it is'. And then I remembered something I discussed with a sub once. It was on the subject of something called 'calibration', where a dom would test his/her paddle and whip swings and spanking at varying intensities on the sub while the sub feeds back what's ideal, where he/she'd like his/her limits tested, what the hard limit is, etc. I was saying how this was an excellent idea. The sub I was discussing this with said 'sure if you're playing with a sack of potatoes.' She argued that just because someone was submissive didn't mean they couldn't stand up for themselves and went on a rant about submissives not needing to be babied by over-protective doms and being able to look after themselves if need be. I decided that since the phasers are physically harmless I didn't need to go overboard with making them fool-proof to the point of ridiculousness. They require about as much common sense as spanking or using a whip.
Also, yes, the currency system is on the whole largely for doms to fuel the power exchange fantasy. The money doesn't actually buy anything meaningful that you can't otherwise get for free anywhere in the society, other than maybe temporary contracts. Subs don't really need all that and getting the currency to involve them in a way that was meaningful for them was a challenge, hence the tallies, lashes and brands as currency. That way subs can feel involved in the currency play in a way that still fueled the sub's fantasy of being useful to their doms.
Perhaps I'm not understanding something, but where does the magic to create the marks in the first place come from? What's stopping any random bozo from just giving themselves all the money they can make?
7427884 I can understand that, but I think it misses some points that developing SSC-compatible scenarios requires. Honestly, calibration isn't just about the sub. It's about the dom learning the limits, both of social interchange and of the physical. The sub has a responsibility to speak up, yes, but why put that all in the moment proper, as opposed to the learning and 'courting' period? That both puts an onus on the sub that the sub has less to potentially zero control (five seconds can be a lifetime if you're experiencing even substantial, not just utter bliss or exquisite pain) to be able to respond; even the nonverbal cues you've used, which are excellent, could easily become inaccessible. That the sub, there, could end up miserable is only half of the equation; what if that's really not what a dom wants? If you're creating a situation in which the dom has to calibrate completely on their own, you can end up traumatizing the dom (which is why we have safewords, too) in addition to a greater harm to the sub! And that's if the sub isn't getting it worse _because_ it's not getting the right caution reaction from the dom _and_ they don't know how to distinguish between ideal/fantasy and practical/reality.
Functionally, what the sub said to you is kind of selfish, honestly. If she and her social group are fine with that, understand each other and have the experience with it, that's great; that's like my Oranges, where they've been living together so long and have such a good understanding of each other's limits and the parameters of their play that he can start playing in her office. They've discussed, planned, and learned together so her participation and power is already a part of the scenario. Also the fact that if he didn't back off, she's strong enough and tough enough to take direct damn action, but that's again, sub power in the situation. But if it's a newbie or a midbie, or if you're expecting to act in a _large_, relatively open pool, active with a wide variety of tastes? Things like calibration aren't just good ideas, they're necessary-- as long as the dom treats the sub's participation in them as respect, not, indeed, treating them as hapless.
That's one of the other problems with dom-focused and dom-controlled arrangements, not just lifestyle, but pure responsibility access. It doesn't protect the dom from the fantasy. RL SSC isn't just safewords and sensible choices for scenes and activities. It's the negotiations, things like green/yellow/red lists, calibration, starting slow and moving up, and every step of the way, that's firmly in both hands. It's not just a third agency, the community; we've unfortunately failed in that respect from time to time.
One of the shames of the BDSM community as a whole, not just SSC or RACK folks (as much as I find RACK problematic, they're at least trying) but not excluding us either is that when actual abuses started, especially by popular doms, there were elements of circling the wagon, of not calling out what amounted to rape and real, nonconsensual torture for fear that it would cause a "moral" panic backlash. So the subs were supposed to just make their own smart choices and got blamed, male and female, when they were then abused... but were told not to talk about it or bring it up.
Now, it sounds like you're building up a good third party agency in the religious overtones and monitors, but in terms of bringing out SSC, that simply won't do. There has to be a real element of power exchange between the doms and subs that isn't just about safewords and collar levels. While the controls don't need to be one to one, they do need to be roughly equivalent in overall frame. That's why-- again, speaking as someone who practices SSC and has for nearly twenty years-- in order to really feel it as SSC, I'd need to see stronger controls in the subs' hands. There's two elements of what your response said that has me worried that's not what you have planned later, when Twilight gets to see the loving skeleton behind it; first, you said:
Right now, the convenience is about 90% in the dom's hands. Once the playtime begins, especially in suspension/restraint of any kind but also just from about 4.99~ seconds after that first click, there's nothing a sub can directly do to stop abuse unless your viewpoint character was way overselling the effects. Human stimulation of pain or pleasure by various means (we're getting creative there, too, it's just not simple) can have vast effects that don't just last in the moment, and can be idiosyncratic, like pleasure responses hitting the wrong nerves causes bowel voiding or keyed up connections causing psychosomatic reactions.
So there's the pain and repetition problem. And then there's the fact that you can use just the sensation of pleasure and satisfaction alone to condition someone; part of the fantasy, sure, but an area that would need scrupulous protection by the sub to make sure it's a conditioning they want to -- they consent to-- undergo in all its particulars. The phasers as you've described them come off as being ridiculously prone to abuse, even accidental abuse, even in trained hands. A third party, no matter how magical and holy, unless they're immersion-breaking perfect, can only do so much. That's why in my SSC-based fics, I tend to include references to prenegotiation and limits that are either safety dependent, like counterbalance-based ropes in a Hunting Season chapter to come that pop off if _either_ the sub exerts her/his magic (of whatever type) sufficiently to make it clear he or she wants out or is distressed, or if their ability to use magic is blocked past a certain point.
I think that's part of what's bugging me about some of the assumptions as well:
They may be incapable of causing _injury_, but that doesn't make them harmless. Pain and pleasure are physical reactions as well as mental, so unless the phasers are really just creating a vague, unreal sense that the pain or pleasure _was_ had, rather than just feeling it, there are definite effects. It's not so much foolproof you want as balanced, participant; if a sub is overconfident, if an abuser is clever, there would still be ways to work it. But giving the sub a part in there other than just "avoid and know who to avoid" and "has a safeword/action" creates the real SSC framework.
I apologize if I'm getting distracting from the point of the system too much. And if this is something that will be really be balanced out through sub-internal processes later, perhaps I'm jumping the gun. But you've got a lot of potential here, and I applaud the effort you're putting into SSC, but it's coming off as not entirely followed through. I've spent a lot of time not only with my RL exploration of SSC kink, but also in the Hyperverse set up on my own, and Her Collar, Her Love, an SSC-based fic I'm working on with a friend. Speaking of, while she calls me co-author, it's really mostly Nine there, and she's fantastic. So these are all topics that I've put a lot of thought through and I hope I'm coming off as helpful/exploratory, not just argumentative for the sake of argument. :) If I am disrupting what you want for discussion here, please feel free to tell me to damp it down and I'll keep it quick and mostly praising the good things based. :) Or take it to PM, or whatever
7427366 Meep. ^^;; Yeah, but hopefully we'll see the internal social-action soon for how it gets distributed and available. Like I blather above, a lot of promise here!
7428089 Hi, so, in answer to your concern, I'm going to copy-paste this again.
Oh, as for how seemingly super popular Clocktower is, it actually isn't all that much. Here's a quote from the next chapter:
I based Equestria's population on the US' current population, seeing as Equestria is more or less an equine parody of the US of A. And the percentage I used is actually lower than the real life value of 11% in the US reported by the Kinsey Institute (While Durex reported 36% in the US and 20% worldwide, though that's probably kinda biased considering they're a contraception company).
16 million ponies is plenty though, with them probably roughly split evenly between the two sites (or maybe more favouring the mare site at Clocktower Equestria East if the show's gender ratio is to be believed). Not all of them will visit Clocktower every single night or even every single week though, so the actual active users at any site at any time should be around half a million to a million. That's still enough to populate a town. And that's why it seems like there's a lot of interest in Clocktower.
Secondly, as to why it's secret, there's more backstory to that which we'll eventually cover in the lore. The society's biggest patron was Luna, seeing as the society's activities was (for the majority) nocturnal. Following her rebellion, the society and everything it stood for including BDSM became taboo by association to Luna. With some assistance from Celestia, the society went underground and has remained so for 1000 years. While it's not quite as taboo anymore, there's still some lingering sentiments. The society's not quite as reserved and secretive anymore, but it's not openly public either, particularly to help protect the privacy of its members. Incidentally, the reason the society has something as ridiculous as a Research Laboratory division is actually tied in to its backstory. Following Luna's banishment, the polymaths who were also commonly astronomers and scientists, faced persecution as so-called 'Lunatics'. They sought protection from the Society in the early days. While Celestia worked hard to outlaw the unfair persecution of Lunatics, it took many years, and during that time the Society's ranks swelled with Lunatics. Even after their persecution was outlawed, many Lunatics stayed on out of gratitude. As a result, the society enjoyed the greatest advancements in science, magic, philosophy, ethics and technology, way ahead of the rest of Equestria. They've long since become a tradition within the society now known as the Research Laboratories.
The reason it's not widespread despite >1000 years of practice is precisely because it is considered taboo, even if those sentiments have relaxed in recent times.
As for why a significant proportion of Ponyville's population is in on it, well, I think if my favourite community centre was two towns over, I'd move there if I could, even if there is a convenient shuttle bus service there. A lot of ponies moved over to Ponyville to be closer to Clocktower, even with the transit hubs in place. It's probably why Rainbow Dash, Pinkie Pie and Fluttershy moved over and why Rarity never left.
Also, for those of you I haven't replied to, don't worry, I'll get to you. I'm just firing off quick replies while I try and finish a new chapter to upload.
EDIT: Also, not to sound presumptuous, but I don't think any of the other BDSM fics get this much attention to detail from its readers. And it's great. I love knowing my world-building is generating thought and discussion trying to pick it apart down to every last detail. It's certainly better than the flak most other BDSM fics here get.
7428117
Huh, interesting idea.
Thanks for the explanation!
I really like these worldbuilding pieces. They really do help flesh out the story's universe, not to mention there's a consistent undercurrent of light comedy, which helps take away from the fact that the Clocktower's ethics are a little morally ambiguous. Especially regarding the napalm and rockets.
No, I will not let that go.
But yeah. Loving these things. And I think Upper Crust is laying on a bit thick in this chapter
and I just made it worse by saying that.MILFs when?
7428121 Oh, there are a few. I only got a few jabs on the one fic, and they were about the alicorn OC, not about the BDSM/SSC; no one seems to have objected to the BDSM or SSC moments in any of them at all. Like in Twilight's Thrones, I was pleasantly surprised to see no one seemed to find the moment when Twilight as a dom had a stress out and stop moment because AJ violated her trust and consent an unsexy one. Not as much discussion as HCHL or here except in my editing group, but I'm writing anthro, so I accept the loss of some potential communication. I was extremely glad the first time I got to talk about Hopper (a top) wanting to mostly be a house-husband and backup. :)
And on HCHL, which I can't recommend enough, based purely on NineCaliber's work, not mine, there was a rather pleasant discussion of why safe words aren't magic in and of themselves, which was why Nine had her two relative newbies draw up green/yellow/red lists and discuss things. Among other things. If you see Gabe LaVedier down below, dude has some fantastic consensual BDSM in his fics (and some fantastic worldbuilding, and good dubcon that understands its own limits and inherent issues-- he's a writer with a fantastic range.)
I think the major thing to take away is that the BDSM fics which are likely to have the most negative stuff flung are the ones that either try for super-super noncon and then normatize it, or who try to disguise noncon as consensual. And then on the flipside, you can get some lovely discussions about worldbuilding that remain positive-oriented in a situation like this, because for all Twilight's worry, you're making it clear that the society, at least, cares deeply about all members of it. Similarly, where you see a loving couple gingerly trying out something new/kinky and taking steps that are real worldish and relatable, you're not going to see a lot of "argh covered in SIN!" types, just because of the nature of the beast of how you get to clop, and there's a great, glowing sensation that you can have your fic and eat it too here; have your outre fun and still have a recognizable, loving romantic relationship out of it.
(Plus consent is so totally hot, but we've established this)
7428825 I think some of the offness is Twilight's exploration and the fact that she's coming down without a mentor; we're getting a sense of the outre that may be more magnified than is warranted. Which is one of the strengths of the fic!
What a lovely fic so far! I'm so glad to have found this. My own BDSM fic is kind of falling flat and I fear I'll have to end it soon and move on to other things. But this is so nice to see. Reminds me of another fic I've read, Moonstone, though purely because of the BDSM kink. :)
Teaser for the chapter I'm releasing later today.
i66.tinypic.com/2j432o5.jpg
7428121
Clopfics in general are ALWAYS going to attract more flak. They also inevitably attract more downvotes. This story, for example, has more downvotes than I think it deserves. You could write the best possible clopfic, with incredibly hot scenes, awesome plot development and world-building, stupendous character development, impeccable grammar, and it will still attract downvotes from:
1) People who think portraying pastel ponies in sexual situations is TEH EVIL and must be KILLED WITH
FIREDOWNVOTES!2) Your fetish is not my fetish, therefore it's gross
3) Your ship is not my ship, therefore it's stupid
Honestly, I wish more people would practice the art of simply walking away from a fic that's not to their taste.
I really do love the idea for currency here.
I'm really enjoying the world-building this story is putting together, and I'm fervently reading to get caught up to the latest chapters.
However, I have a question I'd like to ask regarding the currency that didn't seem to be addressed, and I will admit goes a little deep into morbid territory:
Since the currency is worn on the bodies of slaves, if said slave were to "kick the bucket" outside of Society grounds, is that currency lost? Or is there some sort of protocol in place to credit the late slave's respective owner with the amount their body was "holding"? Or a flat bereavement credit, perhaps?
Honestly, this could even be expanded to what funeral services—if any—the Society practices.
Hmm, I just noticed, I think I've only seen "Slave" for the submissives. Does the Clocktower society cater to other titles/nicknames as well? Such as little, or my personal favorite pet~? Oh, and another thing, the phasers, can the Master mix and match pain and pleasure and place the marks anywhere they like? Cause a little pain and a lot of pleasure is a great way to go~
I must say, bravo. So far I'm enjoying this fic. My favorite part has to be the world building. The fucking isn't my cup of tea, but I'm asexual, so that sort of thing doesn't interest me. Relatively well written. The optional chapters are top notch with their unique voice to emulate the characters who are writing them. I also like the fact that you carefully sidestepped the issue of OOC and shipping wars by using ponies with little to no established canon. I also enjoy how you are characterizing the R&D as Izzet with dildoes. I half expect a liability waver for them that include clauses like:
Ok, it's taken me a bit to start reading this and the world building is enjoyable as all hell. And the writer of this ine? Upper Crust? I can totally see her as the snarky writer. And owning a large catapult.
I love the snarky smart ass reading the world lore between chapters. The clop and story are good so far but these have made me laugh every time.
By far, this chapter alone is the funniest thing I've read for a very long time
And..... yup love this, it was hilarious, and did fully do away with the one major "This is just not right" issue I've had looking through Clocktower stuff. Branding. It just... felt a step to far for this kind of thing, I get the roleplay elements, the reasoning, yet, being that permanent just felt.. wrong and something that would also be really hard to buy and see work with how this was set up.
It just being magical marking, essentially temporary tattoos that go away outside of the society and can easily be removed? PERFECT!
And love how much was thought out to keep 'real' currency from having any effect. Not only prevents 'real' prostitution, but also keeps the richer members from having undo influence, helps make sure every member is treated equal. Doubly so by it not really being needed.
So yeah great ideas.
Though one thing that just feels odd is the 5% thing.
It makes sense, and was wondering why the hell the thing was a secret when every damn Pony in Equestria except Twilight seems in on it. But, this is a case of Show don't tell kind of hurting things by not being shown. We are told that only 5% of ponies in Equestria are members, but just about every, single named pony we know seems to be a member, which makes that harder to buy. Plus enough in Ponyville to have Twilight note how empty it is.. so way more then 5%.
Now I saw the comment that the population of Ponyville is a rather unusually high percentage of Members. With a lot of Society ponies moving to the town to be close to the Tower, andthen with the town being so heavy in them, it would make sense more would show up just to be around ponies that they have the same interests in.
But it goes beyond that, even outside Ponyville, it's all ponies we know, and by having so many of those by in the society, makes it feel like everypony is, so just saying 5% doesn't quite have the same impact as seeing 95% of the ponies we know be a part of things.
oh, that made think of a scene in the online comic "Quentin Quinn, space ranger" on RHJunior.com: these aliens called the "Patoodines" had an unusual Legal system: they launch the criminal from a catapult, height and distance depending on the severity of the crime!
and when they got their hands on a particularly nasty criminal...
"two words: Lunar Impact."
peddling ?
Pun intended? Regardless, that does beg the question... what criteria are the subs judged by for the sake of determining which of them hold a crystal badge in, say (for the sake of consistency with the comment I lead off with), cum inflation? Just curious...
Okay, quick question, two actually.
First, if the prostitution is paid by pretend money, does it become pretend prostitution or just stops being prostitution? Is RP pretend prostitution?
If so, where are my pretend money for the last eight years?!
Second, if you need to buy the phaser in the first place, there is exchange of money. So it kinda stops being pretend-money, you know.
It's like with TF2 - you can start trading from scrap and get to decent unusuals in about half a year, and you'll have lots of pretend money. But to get the pretend money in the first place, you need to buy TF2 Premium or put some cash in Valve's store. So yeah, you got those pretend bucks by your own hard work, but you had to invest some real mulla first, even if a symbolic amount.
So, what I wanna know, basically, do you need to buy the phaser or are those given out for free? And if they are, then, why don't I go grab a phaser, waste all it's charge on...
psv4.userapi.com/c834500/u96977143/docs/d11/61bd14ddc69f/aDV6QYP7_700wa_0.gif?extra=j4VRVJJ-kTg57oooT_PMuU8Y1suxHpZlmCBo8QTB3dSzxD8-hQ9OJJdn9A8TxQVRyehvd4pqAGJIJPr_Sbc2n5LQQKOyBeP7_DXciQcUiwB0wTfgGhbAqKgJmCKC2Zvz1bZ7l7i2435CaQ
...and then simply throw it away and go for a new one?
9055821
That would be something you must have glossed over. Dominants are given a phaser when they're inducted into the society. If you lose it you can probably get another for free, either that or it's tied to your membership via pipsub or something like that, but the important thing to note here is that you don't really get a starting charge; or at least not anything that could get you a slave. After all, Upper Crust wrote about slaves in the context of being the bearer of their dom's money by referring to them as coinpurses, and then compared the amount of currency doms without slaves generally have to spare change carried by someone who can't afford a wallet with said change. Pretty sure said spare change would be earnings from jobs like guard duty. It's very clear that the things are given out uncharged. If you have a charge and then lose your phaser, then unless it's bound to you by your pipsub, that phaser will probably be found by a member of CTS staff, and its charge will be liquidated into the treasury. Or maybe there's a lost and found service for phasers and pipsubs and collars and cuffs and masks and white-or-black-collar slaves.