Page generated in 0.049 seconds
Total duration
1,012 users online
1,636,705 hits today, 2,073,628 yesterday
My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic Fanfiction
Designed and coded by knighty & Xaquseg - © 2011-2024
Support us
SubStar
Chat!
Discord
Follow us
Twitter
MLP: Friendship is Magic® - © 2024 Hasbro Inc.®
Fimfiction is in no way affiliated with or endorsed by Hasbro Inc.®
6695370
Now that is very interesting information. It certainly affects any characterization I might consider about the various mares.
But, at the same time I have to wonder. I find it hard to believe that most mares would not think the stallion's they'd grown up with suddenly turning into misogynistic perverts had to be the work of some outside influence. Just because they don't know the specific reason for it does not mean they would not deduce that something must be responsible.
And if they feel that way, they would also be likely to think that the same thing might apply to the more eager red-collars, unless there was something about the mare's behavior previous to this situation that would lend itself assuming they'd turn into total sluts.
There's a layer to this argument that MacIntosh didn't see but that turns his argument on its head.
For if it's indeed thanks to Celestia that Discord was "reformed" enough to consider allying with Dainn, perhaps even befriending him... then her decision directly led to Dainn taking over Equestia in the first place.
If she's just left him (Discord) as a statue, Dainn wouldn't have had the chance to form a partnership with him. So, going by this, Equestria falling is her fault as well.
6766960
Derpsby, this doesn't turn Mac's argument on its head. It only shows that you're completely missing the point of his argument. What you say has no bearing whatsoever on Mac's paradox.
This isn't about whether Celestia made a mistake or not. That question doesn't even matter here since Big Mac isn't defending Celestia, he is attacking Dainn. The paradox here is that Mac presents Shining Armor with two alternatives that are both unacceptable from Shining Armor's point of view. Either Celestia did reform Discord, then she isn't completely incapable, and that's unacceptable to Shining Armor due to his mind control. Or Celestia did not reform Discord, then associating and striking a deal with him is at least morally questionable. Your argument doesn't turn the paradox on its head, it is entirely located within it. Shining Armor couldn't even argue the way you do, because your argument also implicitly admits that the Fall is undesirable and that both Discord and Dainn are evil, and Shining literally cannot admit that. The paradox is that Shining Armor is stuck with two options that are both unthinkable to him due to the mind control, and no third option available. Now of course, we already know that Dainn is evil anyway, but the point is that admitting this is essentially the only possible way for Shining Armor to resolve the paradox.
Incidentally, Shining Armor himself implicitly admits that Mac has a good point by mentioning some kind of deal between Dainn and Chrysalis, and that Shining himself was (understandably) opposed to that idea.
6767210
I'm not missing his point at all, Ari. I understood perfectly. I'm pointing out that his argument works against him just as well. Because arguing as he does means that Equestria's Fall was Celestia's fault, something he would need to openly acknowledge. It goes both ways.
We'll see whether he ever will.
6767259
No, it doesn't. And the fact that you think it does precisely shows that you don't understand the paradox. Once again: Big Mac is not defending Celestia, he's attacking Dainn. The question whether or not Celestia made a mistake doesn't. even. matter.
Big Mac is pointing out a paradox. He himself isn't even taking any specific position concerning Celestia here, and even if he were, it wouldn't matter. What he does is pointing out an inconsistency in Shining Armor's position.
6767264
If you say so.
Nice dig there, by the way. Classy.
6767268
Apparently, I wasn't as clear as I could have been. I edited my last two messages again and added some stuff that might clear things up for you. You might want to read them again. Maybe then you'll understand why you miss the point. You try to shift the discussion to Celestia, but Big Mac's argument isn't even about Celestia, it's about Dainn. Once again, whether or not Celestia made a mistake has no bearing whatsoever on Big Mac's argument.
6767268
I'm actually not familiar with that expression. If you want to say that I came across as condescending, I apologize. But I really do think that you've been missing the point, and saying that I think so is not a personal attack. Or at least it's not meant to be one.
That a fact?
Shining Armor, Discord was completely insane. He couldn't be reasoned with like one might with another villain, you couldn't really give him anything he wanted he didn't already have or could create himself. He could have turned you into a chicken if he wanted to. A literal one.
Wrong opinion. My eye twitches at the very sight of the phrase.
Wanna bet?
It's ending? Aww!
I want to punch shining armour in his stupid smug face...
Not exactly what I think of when I think of a Christmas story, but thanks for working hard to release it over the holidays.
As always it took me a few hours to work up the nerve to actually read the chapter. I always approach this story with a bit of dread. You've made your version of Applejack and the other ponies real to me, and the nature of this universe leaves me no real hope that their lot in life will improve, which really only leaves one direction for them to go in.
This chapter is no exception. Applejack's new found resolution fills me with worry about what she's going to do in the final chapter, and what the fallout from it is going to be.
In general I'd have to give the Fall of Equestria universe a thumbs down for various reasons, but I gave this story a thumbs ups a long time ago, because it is so compelling and despite my loathing for the situation it draws me back each and every chapter.
In a way I'm glad there is only one more chapter to go, and in another way I'm sad. Glad because I won't find my heart being wrenched again and again, and sad because while the ending was still indefinite I could fool myself into thinking that there might be some sort of positive outcome for the cast.
There is one question that occurs to me. Why didn't Gunne participate in the orgy? Back home in Ponyville it could be assumed he was doing it with his sister, but here at the Gala doesn't all the reasons he gave to Big Mac about participating also apply to him? If he'd indulged himself in screwing a dozen or so mares, Applejack included, wouldn't that have improved his personal situation? something he seems desperate to do at any cost to his pride to go by the way he tried to network with some of his fellow Caribou in the previous chapter.
6767308
That was aimed at the part of your post you deleted, which was condescending, yes. I had the time to see it.
6767288
Again, I understand the paradox perfectly.
"Either Celestia did reform Discord, then she isn't completely incapable, and that's unacceptable to Shining Armor due to his mind control. Or Celestia did not reform Discord, then associating and striking a deal with him is at least morally questionable."
As you put it. I never said anything disproving it. MacIntosh was poking holes in Shining Armor's logic through reductio ad absurdum.
What I noted is a line of attack that Big MacIntosh opened himself up to: Namely how Celestia might be called too incompetent to be allowed to rule Equestria in the first place anyway. That was also something they discussed. Because if you apply MacIntosh's arguments, Celestia either
A) idiotically trusted an obviously still evil Discord when he should've remained a statue, leading to Equestria being taken over
B) made him just receptible enough to the idea of friendship to want one with Dainn, but not enough not to betray his pony friends, leading to Equestria being taken over
Does it disprove the initial paradox? No. Is it something MacIntosh should be asked what he thinks is the case?
Yes. Very much yes.
6768752
I likely shouldn't butt in here, but I seem to recall that there was a point early on in their discussion where Big Mac noted that Shining Armor was one of those people who has to be the cleverest one in the room, the implication being that in reality he's not really that bright.
To effectively debate a point you have to be able to understand why your opponent believes it, so you can then deconstruct his arguments. Seems to me that the spell SA is under makes him incapable of following certain lines of thought, and it makes it very difficult for him to really debate effectively as he is incapable of seeing his opponents point as anything other than total nonsense.
6768775
Which would be perfectly in line with what we've been told about how the Heart works, true. Given enough time, I'm sure Shining Armor will find ways to justify what happened while leaving his paradigm intact; such as that 'somewhat' reforming Discord wasn't Celestia's own decision but destiny working through her to make sure she'd end up enslaved. You know, a line of argument more akin to faith than logic.
6768752
One can argue like that, but then again, Big Mac has already admitted that Celestia may have made a mistake. You can't attack someone by pointing out something he already admitted to - and I think Big Mac wouldn't have problems with admitting that Celestia can make mistakes. He doesn't seem to be one of those who think of Celestia as a Goddess. Unlike Dainn, Celestia never even claimed to be infallible, and her followers in-universe also don't. It comes down to the question whether a single mistake is enough to judge someone as incompetent, even if it is a major mistake. Thousand years of successful rule stand against one single misjudgment. Furthermore, Big Mac doesn't have to believe in Celestia's infallibility in order to be able to believe that she was still a better ruler than Dainn, both in a moral and in a professional sense.
6769309
Which is why I would find it interesting if somepony put that question to him.
Also, going over the discussion again, the paradox does leave out some things.
Discord didn't do anything bad in the show between being first befriended by Fluttershy (Keep Calm and Flutter On) and the Plunder Vines (Princess Twilight Sparkle, after Dainn's takeover). Shining Armor's point about him maybe becoming better in Dainn's presence isn't disproven. MacIntosh has no comeback other than "He was still evil", for which he has no proof other than his alliance with Dainn. The fact that Shining Armor didn't see this underlines what thtiger noted, that maybe Shining isn't the brightes bulb around.
6769386
This is the same thing again. By making this case, Shining Armor would admit that Celestia was at least somewhat successful in reforming him, even if it was just by accident, and he is literally psychologically incapable of even considering this possibility. He doesn't make this argument because he isn't smart. (I actually think Schorl writes Shining Armor as quite a bit smarter than he is in the show.) He can't make this argument because his mind control doesn't permit him to make it.
6769400
Actually no, he wouldn't. It's like this:
Celestia tells Fluttershy to reform Discord->Discord doesn't do anything terrible for the time being, but is still evil->Discord meets Dainn, becomes his friend, grows out of being evil->Dainn takes over Equestria with Discord's help.
He wouldn't need to give Celestia any praise at all. *
*Just to make sure, I don't believe this at all.
6769412
Well, in that case, it still means that Dainn made deals with an evil being.
(You're oscillating between the two alternative possibilities within the paradox, but as I see it, you don't present a viable third option.)
6769428
In an effort to "reform" him. Like Fluttershy. And Twilight. But since Dainn is a male, it worked. *
There's still things that probably wouldn't hold water. However, the paradox isn't as ironclad as it's made out to be here. MacIntosh would need to prove that Dainn didn't reform Discord between what Fluttershy did and the Fall of Canterlot.
Shining Armor had more options than he used, but again, I think thtiger is right and he's not fully capable of doing even that on short notice.
*Not what I actually believe.
6769442
I don't think Big Mac would grant you this point. The chapter explicitly says that Big Mac doesn't even believe that Discord can be reformed, particularly not that quickly.
Here:
Big Mac essentially says that he believes that Discord is still evil, and this is what compromises Dainn. Furthermore, Dainn already had to deal with Discord in order to even try to change him somehow. For Big Mac, the very fact that Dainn associated with Discord at all is something that already implicates him. In order to make your point, Shining Armor would first have to prove that Discord actually is reformed.
Actually, Shining Armor internally agress with Big Mac on this for a moment:
And then he makes the same argument you're making:
But this is of course begging the question.
6769493
That's true. Big Mac thinks Discord is still evil, but for somepony like Shining Armor, the fact that he's an ally now is (or should be) a sign that he no longer is, whether Mac agrees or not. Shining Armor fails to make this connection, which is why he's left only with having faith in Dainn's abilities—essentially following as blindly as he said he did with Celestia before.
6769547
Okay, I grant you this argument.
Also, I found it interesting to get a closer look at Shining Armor's thought processes.
6769562
Agreed. It's very interesting, including the signs that Shining Armor's thoughts aren't truly "organic".
6769631
Well, some of them seem to be, like his opinion on Chrysalis, for example.
6769638
Oh, perfectly true! And his love for Cadance is still there, I think, even if it's tainted. Even his concern for Twilight is probably genuine.
... Incidentally, teasing about something or other having happened with Chrysalis is another veeery interesting tidbit. Whatever Dainn did, Armor wasn't happy with it.
Addendum: Which also means he's still capable of not agreeing in some manner. Huh.
Surprised Big Mac didn't ask how anyone could trust Shining Armor. After all he is now a vow breaker. He served Celestia for years and then betrayed her. Even if he used the logic that Dian would be better, then that just means that its ok to betray your ruler if someone better comes along. Also, in the end, isn't what their doing hurting Equestria more? In their eyes, isn't limiting a mares ability to serve bad? Think about all the pegasi that they lost that could help with the weather or the loss of all of Twilight's magical talents that could help Equestria.
I honestly don't know how much longer I can continue reading this story. I have always believed that I can stomach alot as long as there is a satisfying ending. I don't like to see jackasses win. And the carabo just seem too powerful and I believe this story is coming to a close soon
So, this fic is coming to a close. I have a few thoughts on it. First, Mac's conversation with Shiny at the gala, where he listens to Shining talk about how much better things are under the Caribou, while Mac himself ruminates on how his viewpoint differs from that but knows better than to vocalize it. Still, it's kind of nice to know that despite the Caribou's machinations, Shiny still has love for Cadence (even though that love is corrupted). Then AJ's conversation with Twilight where she talks about how useless her magic was (and mind you, Twi was the Princess of Friendship) while AJ wonders how Twilight submitted so easily.
Then AJ discovers her cousin, Apple Dumpling, had been blanked and was being used as "entertainment". Then, just as AJ decides to confront the Caribou, Ivanigir decides to have some fun with AJ. This leads AJ to think that maybe taking a red collar wasn't such a hot idea after all. All though this fic, I was hoping that somehow Mac and AJ will have some kind of small victory (or at least decide to get the buck out of Equestria) but I don't think this fic is going to have a happy ending. I guess if it did, it would be a Post- FoE fic.
This is a good fic overall, and it's good to have one that centers on Big Mac, one of the few stallions to resist the brainwashing. And in the original MLP:FiM cartoon show, Mac is a character I always enjoy seeing another side of. Like in last season's "Brotherhooves Social" where Mac dresses up as "Orchard Blossom" to go with Apple Bloom to the Sisterhooves Social when AJ is otherwise engaged.
Anyway, it should be interesting to see how you wrap this up. Maybe you could do a Post FoE fic next, with Mac and/or AJ. Just a thought.
Pray tell, which one?
6797277
Thanks for the catch Ted. As always, a big help
6797434
My pleasure!
But seriously, which one?
6770758 That's the point of how the caribou see things. Things are better without all the girls screwing up and being weaker than the men. Yeah, there's less pegasi to help with the weather, but quality over quantity. By the very fact it's men performing the duties, it's being done better, and with more efficiency than when the girls were allowed to help. Same with unicorns. They're girls. They just can't do magic as good as men. They lack the creativity to create powerful spells. They aren't powerful enough to use magic as well as it could be. Why? Because they aren't men.
Welcome to a patriarchal society.
That was a good story.
Throughout the whole thing I was expecting a scene of the likes of Midnight Express where the main character loses their composure and goes berserk on someone that has wronged them, and while the Roseluck scene was pretty close, it wasn't enough.
And I'm actually glad that didn't happen. Because the reality of their situation is that there is no winning for them, only trying to make it so their losses aren't as bad when they happen. I like stories like that, the kind where there is no hope so that even the smallest victories feel like great triumphs.
Is the next chapter almost done?
6781357
Are the Caribou Characters in your story part of FoE canon?
7066576
This is a canon story, approved by non_creepy_nickname. That's why it is in the canon folder.
7182670 Ah, ok, just wondering
7327441
Well, Gunne is trying to flirt with Big Mac in the early Gala chapters, so there is definitely some ship tease. On the other hand, it doesn't seem like Big Mac is interested.
Personally, I prefer to ship Gunne / Dainn and Big Mac / Daisy. I can't really see Big Mac being gay, but I also simply can't see him being interested in a caribou after all they've done. Yes, Gunne is a bit different, but when it comes down to it, not different enough.
6769493
Wait so is Queen Chrysalis dead?
7337149
How do you come to such a conclusion?
7335727
I guess it's because it's heavily teased, while Gunne / Dainn is only subtly implied.
7337162
I guess I can't really say, the first guess was the way he said it how he was against how they delt with her and in other stories I've read how Chrysalis's hive was wiped out by Discord. But of course those are non-canon stories so I am hoping that it isn't true because the changelings are one of my favorite species in the show and Queen Chrysalis is one of my favorite characters.
7337214
Which other story was that?
7337233
I don't remember which one it was I think it was a alternate Fall Of Equestria.
7337252
Well, I vaguely remember reading a posting from Schorl Tourmaline somewhere in the forums where she said that she wanted to write a FoE story with Chrysalis some time after Bruised Apples. I couldn't point you to it, but I know that Schorl Tourmaline is a big fan of Chrysalis, and I'm fairly certain non_creepy_nickname won't just have her killed off. From what I know, he really doesn't like killing characters, and Chrysalis has too much potential to be just killed off anyway.
7337262
Well I'm glad to hear that. Chrysalis is one of my favorite characters and the changelings one of my favorite species i would hate to see them killed off.
7337286
Chrysalis and Discord are my two favorite villains from the show as well.