People eventually got to me about how Celestia basically manipulated and forced Twilight to become a princess and then rule Equestria and pretty much set her up to outlive her friends by eternity (though there are ways around that part that are easy to headcanon), and that she was no better than Discord bringing the villains together.

How can I get past that and see less malicious intentions behind this? How can I look at her and FiM the same way again? I haven't wanted to watch or think about MLP (besides engaging on forums and stuff) for a while since then.

While I love Celestia, she does need to be called out on certain issues such as with Luna.
I know all Celestia needs is just someone pointing it out and realize those issues.
Like I prefer her getting called out so she grows as a character and address those issues

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You know, that gives me an idea for a fanmade post-MLP:FiM spin-off that is based off of a former brony's fanfiction series.

7300501
What was the series about?

You can't Celestia is inherently, a bad person. Throughout the series she basically let her own subjects die for no reason and let twilight and her friends do all the work. Not to mention SOMEHOW failing at raising Sunset after the experience with Luna. Somehow she messed that up even with that experience. Not to mention how she just leaves ruling Equestria to Twilight. Now admittedly I am a history nerd, I dont think it goes without mention how horrible it'd be to just up and leave the Dual monarchy to a rather inexperienced leader.

you COULD say, being the element bearers, they were the only ones who COULD do anything against most the threats...but that doesn't apply to the dragon, or the empire. even tirek wasn't excused really. twilight doing hat tia trained her to do, but tia shoots her down.

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Being a Discord avocet did Celestia have a choice? It not hard to see the Elements of Harmony are linked to
Twilight’s Cutie Mark. On top of that we know
Celestia has premonitions. It possible she saw every bad outcome in her dreams if she didn’t guided Twilight so.

Unlike Celestia Twilight has friends in all three major tribes and has a vast more modern understanding of cultures of the tribes. In that case it makes sense Twilight takes over. The Elements told Celestia so. Twilight unlike her friends had a Crown.

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Someone called Wesdaaman wrote a fanfic series about an MLP OC called Griffy the pygmy griffin, who also turned out to be one of the Elements of Harmony. I'll show you his accounts:

Fanfiction.net account link:
https://www.fanfiction.net/u/3014019/WesDaaman

DeviantArt account link:
https://www.deviantart.com/wesdaaman/gallery/all

Feel free to look at them.

7300493
One YouTuber made this rather interesting animation that calls Celestia's actions directly into question and forces Twilight to confront the darker aspects of her teacher:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufW5tpG_eAQ

I've always been a little skeptical of Celestia's actions, but I've also seen a lot of fanfictions where she gets called out repeatedly. And usually, I can deal with a character having flaws or not being fully good... as long as someone directly calls them out for it.

Like in this one fanfic, Parting Words, where Celestia got called out. By Twilight of all people too. Hope you enjoy as much as I did:

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/10880035/1/Parting-Words

Yeah, you might argue that Celestia is one of the true villains of MLP...and she gets away with it

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I'd say that one of the best things to do is to look at the good facts about Celestia's character and what she was done, such as how she wants Equestria to prosper, isn't the type that wanted to rule with an iron hoof (though it was great fuel of fanfic with a dictator Celestia) seemed to truly want Twilight to be happy, even if she had her own plans for her. Considering Twilight would have remained asocial if Celestia was like "Okay, Twilight, you don't need friends" when Twilight wanted none of friendship, setting things in motion could be looked at as a net gain for Twilight, even as Equestria's ruler. For that matter, a net gain for Equestria. If Celestia just thought of and treated Twilight just like any other student and Twi never had a reason to go to Ponyville, who would have stopped Nightmare Moon...?

If the good Sunbutt has done isn't enough to off-set the issues you now have with her, then listening to the fans that talk good about her may help. Another option is to write and read stories that address & fixes the issues.

If none of the above works, or if you don't want to write those stories and/or don't think it'll do any good, then you may just have to accept that Celestia's not a character you may like anymore, or at the very least, accept that she's different to you now. The first step with that is being honest with your feelings and accept it. You can't force yourself to look at her (or any character) in a certain way if you just can't for one reason or another.

As for how you can look at FIM the same anymore? like the above: think of the joy and fun the show gave you. If that doesn't work and the last season ruined things for you no matter what, that's where Fanon Discontinuity starts looking like a good option. Did season 9 ultimately ruin FIM and nothing you do can fix it? Use Fanon Discontinuity to try to pretend season 9 didn't happen and that Celestia never made Twilight ruler of Equestria.

7300517
Wonder if Luna calls Celestia out on anything?

7300519
If she gets called out on it, I see her eyes get instantly opened and she realizes she has to fix those issues pretty much.

7300524
I think there are fanfics where she does it, but I haven't seen them. Which is really odd, as Luna has more than enough reason to want to call Celestia out.

Now that I'm thinking about it, it would be a great lead up to how Luna became Nightmare Moon; she tried to call Celestia's attention to her manipulative ways, and Celestia blew her off, leading to the envy and darkness taking over. Though, that would have to do with events that occurred a thousand years in the past, way before Twilight was even around.

But still, interesting idea. Thanks for sharing.

7300493
Everypony has their faults and she paid for it after what happened to Luna and the pain of having to send her to the moon. Yes she did had to lie but she had to play a major gamble but she had no choice. You either love her or hate her for that However I am able to look past that of her since she had already gone through alot in my book.

That's my response dude

You can't look at her the same, that's the truth. I think that she cares about her subjects and loves them, but she needs to stop the manipulativeness. I have like 3 separate headcanons of mlp that are only different in the way that Celestia is handled. It's a whole thing. Really, it depends on your headcanon. If you see her as somepony who manipulates because she thinks it's necessary for her country, or you follow Sawtooth Waves' theory on an Alicon nation then you could justify it as because of that. I don't really know, and now I'm rambling. It just depends on the way you view her. You could even just... Have a headcanon where she isn't manipulative, just subpar at decision making? I don't know. Just have fun :p

7300532
Sadly it felt like the writers didn't convey that "guilt" Celestia had for the NMM.
Heck, her speech to Luna after she got hit by the rainbow is basically she acted like Luna alone is at fault even though I am pretty sure Celestia is at fault too for the NMM mess. To me, the speech needed a bit of changing since something didn't felt right.

I portray Celestia not a a tyrant that forces ponies to do her bidding, but as a guiding mother of all ponies in Equestria. She lets them to their own devices, and generally they get along. Celestia herself calls herself a figurehead for her ponies, a scapegoat to their problems, and nothing more. She raises the sun, and other than dealing with the massive troubles in the past, she generally doesn't do much else. Each generation is different, though, so she must make new choices every year. She just happened to notice her student had been failing all of her friendships, and had heard of the kindly group of ponies in Ponyville that might help her troubled student. She did have foresight and know that NMM would chase her, but he thought she could still return her sister to being Luna. It all backfired, however.

Later on, with the others, Celestia has aged. She may not look it, but mentally she is strained. To quote Bilbo Baggins, "I feel like butter spread over too much bread". Her strain leads to scattered thoughts and unfocused responses. A thousand years of raising the sun and moon wore her down, and her magic and focus are only a fraction of what they were. She admits to this weakness, and tells that her sudden leave was because she finally cracked. Even with the relief of having her sister back, she had four 2020 in a row, and she couldn't handle it anymore. Besides, she felt like she needed to spend more time with her sister, and allow her subjects to begin to rule themselves under the ideologies of unity and friendship built up over the years.

That's just how I portray her and think of her.

I'd agree that Celestia did manipulate Twilight and the rest of the mane six, she also manipulated Sunset. But that's not to say she did so with malice. She knew about NMM's return and was basically beginning Twilight's training around the time she was gearing up to give Sunset more advanced training. I'd agree that Celestia can catch glimpses of the future. Though it begs the question, how far into the future can an alicorn see? Because of her long period without Luna beside her, she grew accustomed to not asking for help or seeking council. An interesting what if is, what if Sunset had not rebelled? Would Sunset have accompanied Twilight to Ponyville to help in confronting NMM and reawakening the elements? Would that have meant that Sunset and Twilight would have ascended side by side? Of course when somepony like Celestia has ruled for as long as she has and successfully as she has, it would be safe to say that not only does she play dice with the universe, she also plays poker with the universe and tends to hedge her bets. Yes she has her blind spots, like not noticing that Chrysalis had infiltrated Canterlot or ignoring Luna's, Cadance's and Twilight's requests to confront Tirek before he could become strong enough to challenge four alicorns.

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I don't believe the forced her. She made her choose for herself. I'm sure she would've understood if she said 'no'. (Which I kinda hoped it was)

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The answer is simple, because the whole manipulation aspect is a lie. If she truly was manipulating Twilight, she wouldn't have allowed her to make her own choices throughout most of the series, her own decisions, and even her own mistakes, she would have simply forced her to do exactly as she demanded without question.

I think this vid sums it up nicely.

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Not to mention SOMEHOW failing at raising Sunset after the experience with Luna.

That wasn't completely her fault, Sunset was arrogant from the beginning. Not to mention the fact that when she didn't get what she wanted she simply straight up left.

Also I wouldn't say Twilight is an inexperienced leader considering how well she's done with the Elements of Harmony themselves.

Plus in the epilogue we see that she's brought Equestria to an even greater era of prosperity since more and more races have been integrated into their society.

7300539
Yeah.....

7300548

she's brought Equestria to an even greater era of prosperity since more and more races have been integrated into their society.

That doesn't sound too good actually.
The writers have made an incredible effort of showing that any race besides ponies are either rude, chaotic, poor, or staright up evil.
So saying "Everything is better because now that everycreature is part of the succesful Equestria" dosen't sound like a particular 'good ending' so to speak.

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Also Jim Miller said Twilight and her friends have been exposed to a lot of magic, not knowing what it does to them.

Besides, that last episode was just an epilogue episode. It doesn't truly have to count. Anything can happen, right?

7300548
Fair enough but she still didnt help really. Especially since she kinda pushed sunset into the mirror situation and literally did nothing about it and waited for twilight to do something about it. Plus just because she did well with the elements of harmony doesnt translate with stuff like economic and political policy.

7300558

That doesn't sound too good actually.

So you'd rather them either be at war with them or simply distancing themselves from them? That doesn't sound Progressive at all.

The writers have made an incredible effort of showing that any race besides ponies are either rude, chaotic, poor, or staright up evil.

And then improving their own ways of life throughout the years is somehow impossible? Or are we just going to ignore how the changelings and Dragons manage to turn their Lifestyles around?

So saying "Everything is better because now that everycreature is part of the succesful Equestria" dosen't sound like a particular 'good ending' so to speak.

Only to the narrow-minded, considering the fact that it was proven that various races coming together can be beneficial to all of Equestria. Or, once again, are you just going to ignore the student 6 becoming a new set of elements? Does that not count for something?

7300578
She was testing Sunset's resolve in the face or temptation for more power, it was Sunset's own impulsiveness and arrogance that caused her to fail.

And as for her not doing anything... she has an entire Kingdom to run, her jumping into a mirror after her student with the risk of getting trapped on the other side is not a very wise move.

And regarding Twilight, considering the fact that she managed to build bridges to various races that have either been closed off, on very shaky terms with Equestria, straight up enemies with them, or simply weren't interested speaks volumes.

It got to the point where her actions brought forth a second set of Elements Of Harmony, and as I said before, the epilogue shows that she managed to do just fine, Equestria is still peaceful so it's obvious she has been doing something right.

7300493
Word of advice? Don't listen to any idiot associated with this group. At the end of the day they're just desperate to hate everything and anything connected to MLP after Twilight got her wings. So much so that they'll twist and alter facts about the series or just straight-up ignore certain aspects of it just to demonize it (and anyone who likes it) further.

7300493
Celestia is not malicious, just poorly written. Twilights Ascension intended as original series finale.
P.S. I wasn't whinning about Twilight Ascension, on contrary I was excited about story gaining scale. Season four was pretty good and seemed setting ground for epic adventures. Then they started improvising in increasingly cringy manner. First, they tried to satisfy Twilicorn cry-babies by adding bootleg unicorn Twilight in form of Starlight Glimmer; then they awkwardly shoehorned Pillars; then School of Friendship and Cozy Glow (I genualy expected for her backstory to be revealed in final season); then Royal Sisters just dumped their responsibility. I was expecting Hasbro to gradually make the rest of Mane Six alicorns, and still kind of pissed that they didn't went with this route, apparently only Twilight is special enough to recieve anything from this friendship thing.

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So you'd rather them either be at war with them or simply distancing themselves from them? That doesn't sound Progressive at all.

You misinterpret me. It's not about them being against Equestria, is about them not having any other choice than become like Equestria, because Equestria is right and they are wrong.
Instead of improving their culture, they just adopt Equestria's culture.

And then improving their own ways of life throughout the years is somehow impossible?

According to the writers, yes.

Or are we just going to ignore how the changelings and Dragons manage to turn their Lifestyles around?

Only because Equestria influenced them to do it.
Having harmony and friendhsip as a fundamental rule and even literal weapon makes the situation seem like "my way or the highway"

considering the fact that it was proven that various races coming together can be beneficial to all of Equestria. Or, once again, are you just going to ignore the student 6 becoming a new set of elements? Does that not count for something?

I think you're forgetting that all of Equestria only includes ponies.
The villain trio didn't care about the dragons or griffins or yacks. The changelings only because of direct connection with Chrysalis, but the rest would be pretty much untouched by the events.

Only to the narrow-minded

Subtle insult aside, I'm not questioning the results, just the means that were taken to reach it.
Honestly I would've found more fiting that the Griffons betterment was thanks to Gilda, who was trying to make a change by herself after learning through first claw experience what friendship was like. Instead of a last minute, offscreen speech by a character that learned frienship in an academy and took a test with the embodiment of harmony.

*sees the video's image of Sunset reading from the Necronomicon*
I see what you mean there...

the Tl;TLTR version,
Celestia already knew what was gonna happen if not from some unmentioned farseeing ability, but from her long years in power to study the patterns of the world around her and most of the villains that Twilight and co. confronted, she had already beaten and knew very well in advance that they would come back smarter and more powerful for her and her sister to face for round two alone.
so, had Celestia just simply took Twilight aside to teach her directly without really experiencing any of it first, it would be a bigger disaster than just dropping her into the way of life to learn as she went, which since the show's episodes had to be super cramped into a 30-35 minute story. we get a lot of background, lore and other details simply cut out for the sake of pace and simplicity of the show's cannon.
So, I think, yeah, Celestia should of done a few things differently but being Twilight's Personal teacher, she put her through a "watered-down" version of the many life lessons that Celestia had already learned her self so, the best way to pass them on, is to guide her towards those "lessons" without too much interference.

The Full version:
since I haven't really seen the rapid-fire copouts of the 9th season, I can only relate to this by saying in seasons before, it was very obvious that the multitasking leader of the Element bearers would have trouble to maintain the kingdom as, example, she almost starts a war with another country because of a piss poor attempt at making an impression with the delegates.

even after ascension, Twilight still had a lot to learn about being a princess and an effective leader. Even monarchies of our world had this slow-moving transition between rulers with the tutorage of the next-in-line as they grow up around the way of life (unless the previous king dies by various means then the next-in-line is yeeted onto the throne and has to learn on the job). here, Poor Twilight was just dropped into the role while the sisters, who have centuries of experience, quietly plan their retirement as far back as when Twilight was "showing signs" of any glimmer of leadership.

Even in the most recent movie shows that the immortal monarchs refuse to give any help on Twilight's little celebration, even consider doing something that would have complemented the symbolisms of Friendship and harmony (of course, Twilight's lack of clarity of thought denies her of mentioning that detail during her hastily done pitch to both Luna and Celestia).

Serves ya right being Petrified for the rest of the movie, ya selfish bitches!

anyways; polite ranting aside, There are many examples that point towards how Celestia should have handled Twilights transition to power. Then, while typing this I remember an old movie I watched which had a few well-spoken quotes during the ending scene:

"Think boy! What kind of adventure would you have had I brought you here at the turn of a page!?"
*one recap sequence later*
"Had I brought you here from the start you would never have found the courage to face your own fears..."

now with some of us suffering from spontaneous Nostalgiaitius, I can also point out that Princess Celestia has played this kind of gig before. with her own long-lasting reign, you can guess that she learned when and where to draw a line with her tasks to her students. I mean, there had been a few moments where one or both the alicorns had stepped in to back Twilight up when it was very obvious that she couldn't do it herself anymore.

Celestia already knew what was gonna happen if not from some unmentioned farseeing ability but from her long years in power to study the patterns of the world around her and most of the villains that Twilight and co. confronted, she had already beaten and knew very well in advance that they would come back smarter and more powerful for her and her sister to face for round two alone.

so, had Celestia just simply took Twilight aside to teach her directly without really experiencing any of it first, it would be a bigger disaster than just dropping her into the way of life to learn as she went, which since the show's episodes had to be super cramped into a 30-35 minute story. we get a lot of background, lore and other details simply cut out for the sake of pace and simplicity of the show's canon.

So, I think, yeah, Celestia should have done a few things differently but being Twilight's Personal teacher, and again, saw the potential in her; she put her through a "watered-down" version of the many life lessons that Celestia had already discovered and learned her self; so, the best way to pass them on to Twilight, is to guide her towards those "lessons" without too much interference.

in the end, Tia did a good job raising Twilight from afar.

I know, it's a lot to digest, but if you made it this far, first: congrats, and thanks for reading. second: yeah, I had to do this kind of deep thinking for the sake of fleshing out my own stories I work on.

7300604

You misinterpret me. It's not about them being against Equestria, is about them not having any other choice than become like Equestria, because Equestria is right and they are wrong.
Instead of I'mproving their culture, they just adopt Equestria's culture.

That's a bit of a stretch considering the fact that their own methods got them pills nowhere fast, the Griffins own greed pretty much brought their entire home to ruin, the dragons were mostly just obsessed with either hoarding or being more powerful than anyone else, the Yaks were stubborn and refuse assistance, which in turn could have led to their extinction.

They saw how those methods benefited Equestria and adapted it while still keeping true to their own. Adapting doesn't mean lack of improvement.

The way you're saying it it sounds like a question or simply forced them to automatically change to their way. And before you bring up the school, that was an optional choice, one that they all took part in.

According to the writers, yes.

I refer you to my earlier statement.

Only because Equestria influenced them to do it.
Having harmony and friendhsip as a fundamental rule and even literal weapon makes the situation seem like "my way or the highway"

Once again, that's a stretch.

And even then, Equestria proved to be a good influence rather than the influence they were following. Chrysalis obviously wasn't the best option for a leader.

You're making it sound like the ponies of basically threatened to them to change or else, the only time the elements could ever be used as if the opposing factor had malicious intent of any kind.

And don't even think about bringing up the changelings, they basically invaded Equestria first.

I think you're forgetting that all of Equestria only includes ponies.
The villain trio didn't care about the dragons or griffins or yacks. The changelings only because of direct connection with Chrysalis, but the rest would be pretty much untouched by the events.

No they wouldn't, do you really think that the wendigos freezing everything over wouldn't eventually extend beyond the Equestrian borders? Do you really think that the villain trio wouldn't be interested in expanding their territory after they took over?

Subtle insult aside,

Oh no, I was referring to ponies like Chancellor Neighsay. Remember? The guy who was so against this kind of thing happening that he blatantly insulted the leaders?

I'm not questioning the results, just the means that were taken to reach it.

Once again, you're making it sound like Twilight basically forced everyone to convert to their ways and threatened them if they refused.

7300614

According to the writers, yes.

I refer you to my earlier statement.

As I say, the writers made it so any race besides Equestria was disfuntional because they didn't have what Equestria had.
So each race had two options A. Become Equestria or B. Keep being a ruined kingdom
You don't need to force anyone if they don't have a choice to begin with.
It would be offensive to give someone a glass full of piss to drink, but to someone that's dying of thirst it would be salvation in their eyes.

nd don't even think about bringing up the changelings, they basically invaded Equestria first

They were also made by Equestria.

No they wouldn't, do you really think that the wendigos freezing everything over wouldn't eventually extend beyond the Equestrian borders? Do you really think that the villain trio wouldn't be interested in expanding their territory after they took over?

The yacks already live in eternal winter. The dragons bathe in lava. And if griffons could attract the wendigos, their kingdom would've frozen long ago.

And the villain trio were more worried in fighting each other than expanding. And even at their best they didn't even consider anything else.
Chrysalis didn't repalce the dragons when she took over, and Tirek didn't absorve magic from other creatures.

Remember? The guy who was so against this kind of thing happening that he blatantly insulted the leaders?

Yeah, because Equestria is such a welcoming country with no history of blatant racism whatsoever, exept this particular pony in a position of influence.

Once again, you're making it sound like Twilight basically forced everyone to convert to their ways and threatened them if they refused.

And once again, you misinterpret me.
The world was made so the only solution to everycreatures problem was the solution Equestria developed first.
There was no need to force anyone because there was no other way to solve the problems other than point at Equestria and say, they do things better, we must be more like them.

And again, I would've liked it better if the union of the races wasn't done with one offscreen speech to each race at the very end of the series.

7300622

So each race had two options A. Become Equestria or B. Keep being a ruined kingdom
You don't need to force anyone if they don't have a choice to begin with.
It would be offensive to give someone a glass full of piss to drink, but to someone that's dying of thirst it would be salvation in their eyes.

Again, you're stretching the concept.

The way your phrasing it is like they were basically forced to change instead of making the choice themselves. Learning from an act of kindness motivated a few members of their race to actually try something different.

They just decided that their methods of greed weren't working, how in the world is that a bad thing?

Are you saying they should have just remained the way they were? Completely run down and miserable? Are you basically saying that they're in the wrong for at least trying to better themselves and improve their lifestyles?

And don't try bringing the writers into this, you either address this from an in-Universe standpoint or not at all. No meta excuses.

They were also made by Equestria.

First of all, I don't think anybody knows about that.

Second of all, who cares? That doesn't automatically justify their actions.

The yacks already live in eternal winter. The dragons bathe in lava. And if griffons could attract the wendigos, their kingdom would've frozen long ago.

Being more resistant to the cold doesn't make you immune to getting frozen. Plus Tirek could simply drain them all of their magic and leave them with the option to either serve him or die.

And the villain trio were more worried in fighting each other than expanding. And even at their best they didn't even consider anything else.

And who's to say they wouldn't have eventually started planning that out later down the line if they won? We already saw what would happen in several of the alternate timelines where the elements were never found, so it's not hard to believe that they'd try going further once the heroes were out of the way.

After all, they have all the power, who's going to stop them?

That's the thing about villains, the moment they finish conquering one area, they just want more.

Take Aku from Samurai Jack for example, he wanted to take over the Earth, he succeeded, and in the future it's established that he's been spreading his evil to other planets as well.

For villains, enough is never enough.

Yeah, because Equestria is such a welcoming country with no history of blatant racism whatsoever, exept this particular pony in a position of influence.

I'm simply pointing out that characters like him are the more narrow-minded ones, the ones who openly reject the notion of making peace with other races.

And once again, you misinterpret me.
The world was made so the only solution to everycreatures problem was the solution Equestria developed first.

Again... so what?

At least there was a solution. Or would you rather have everyone enslaved and at the mercy of one of the various villains that the elements have had to deal with?

And again, even the elements adapted to become more inclusive considering the fact that the newest set of elements consists of a yak, a hippogriff, a griffin, a dragon, a changeling, and a pony.

There was no need to force anyone because there was no other way to solve the problems other than point at Equestria and say, they do things better, we must be more like them.

Once again, you're stretching the concept. You can't keep claiming that everyone had no choice but to be like them when they were the ones complete extending the hoof of camaraderie to them, they made the choice on whether or not they wanted to actually form an alliance or improve themselves.

That's not having no choice, that's just choosing to be better. And no, just because it's the ponies does not romantically mean they were forced to be like them.

Now stop making the stupid implication that Equestria secretly racist.

7300625
They hid in terror from a zebra because they tough she was a witch.
And that's just the most famous example

And let me put it this way.

Why are griffons and dragons greedy?
Why are yacks rude to everyone?
Why is the only Minotaur we ever see a scammer?

There is no reason, they just are.
The changelings would be the only ones with a reason, being that they believed that they could only take love, but the other races are just jerks by nature.

And even if you keep ignoring my last point I will keep repeating it.
My problem is the way it was done, not the result.

7300629

They hid in terror from a zebra because they tough she was a witch.
And that's just the most famous example

That was just the one town, first of all. You can't automatically assume everyone Equestria would be like that (Canterlot maybe, but barring a select few their nobility has been known to be uptight).

Second of all I never said that they had a perfect history the early ponies who founded Equestria, Nightmare Moon, King Sombra (assuming you don't count his origin in the comics), Cozy Glow, and the Thracians actual proof of that. But that doesn't automatically mean that Equestria is unfit to utilize the power of Harmony. If anything them advancing past that should be taken as a prime example.

Why are griffons and dragons greedy?

Lore-wise, they're naturally hoarders.

Why are yacks rude to everyone?

They have a bad habit of being stubborn.

Why is the only Minotaur we ever see a scammer?

Maybe he's just a greedy? Just because he's the only Minotaur we see does not automatically mean all Minotaurs are like that.

That's like saying the only human we see being a scammer automatically means that all humans are con artists.

And even if you keep ignoring my last point I will keep repeating it.
My problem is the way it was done, not the result.

And my problem is that you blatantly ignore aspects of how it was done and only take the worst implications from it.

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No one is perfect. Celestia may have made some mistakes in the past, like we all do, but I will say that
what she did make the wiser choice with was choosing Twilight and her friends to take their rightfully earned places.

Btw, my favourite way around the whole bit was from The Great Alicorn Hunt, but that's just me.

On the bright side, Celestia and Luna can concentrate on enjoying their *cough cough* twilight years, if this is indeed the case.

One of the constants in most worlds of magic is 'DESTINY', the belief that some things are going to happen whether the character involved wants them to or not. Even if they try to avoid it, it will happen (the more they fight it, the worse the consequences get until they decide to accept it). It does not happen to all. Celestia has been around a long time. She has probably learned to recognize those who are destined for greatness and aids them as much for Equestria as for the individuals. I doubt she knows exactly what their destiny is (although I'm sure she hoped for a replacement eventually).

7300493
To be fair it's not like Celestia didn't say Twilight or Cadence couldn't uplift Shining Armor or her friends to the same position. How do you know Celestia didn't intend for that all along.

"Hey Twilight it's been twenty years, how come your friends haven't joined the horn and wings club yet?" ;)

That strikes me as something that known troll Celestia would do.

Also perhaps when she told Twilight this was her destiny maybe that was literal. We know Celestia has the gift of premonition. She could've seen all the alternate timelines Twilight went through in her dreams. We know she knew the gang from Ponyville were destined to be the elements of harmony. Maybe there literally was no other way.

Thirdly. Twilight and Cadence mean a lot to Celestia. She wouldn't want to intentionally hurt them, Cadence is her niece and Twilight is the closest thing she has to a daughter. I believe she fully intended to keep very close to them after her retirement. She would not want those two to end up like Luna.

So that's my thoughts on it. Celestia is a very caring and loving pony so I think either the others have an ascension waiting in the wings (pun fully intended) or she plans to stick incredibly close to both of them. I honestly can't see Celestia not taking their loved ones into account before ascending them, she just wouldn't do that.

7300740
I feel like about the whole destiny thing, Celesti and (especially)Luna basically got the short end of the stick in favor of Twilight(heck, Mane 6 in general, especially with the Elements) with how things went for the sisters pretty much.

7300592
Could she not send atleast a royal guard member or a mage or literally do anything with the portal? She is the ruler of said kingdom and couldve done atleast the bare minimum of effort instead of doing what she always does and let twilight do the work for her. Plus why test Sunset's resolve and not just actually teach her about her mistakes?

Simple I don't consider season 9 or beyond canon there are way more problem's with that season than just celestia's character so it's a season not worth saving, and I feel you I love celestia she and luna got screwed in season 9 a long with a ton of other character's

7300493
Celestia ain't perfect. Nobody is. But if you ask me, she's far from some manipulative, conniving jerkwad.

7300493
Well for starters, that plan isn't neraly as bad as Discord's. (Well, except maybe the part where she had Twilight cast a reality-warping spell in her friends without knowing if she could reverse it.)

As for feeling the same way about her - well, you probably can't without forgetting most of the show, or at least her role in it. What you can do is try and develop a new, integrated understanding of her, either explaining or altering her actions.

I'll just note that I don't think any of her goals were malicious - she's sincerely doing what she thinks is best for Twilight and Equestria. (Of course, Starlight Glimmer was also doing that when we met her...)

7300531
I'm pretty sure Luna is very untrusting of any negative opinions she forms of her sister after the whole Nightmare thing.

7300801
The problem is that in any reasonable reading her scheming nature should be a character flaw, but instead the narrative tends to either validate it or just not mention the odd times it doesn't work.

7300780

Plus why test Sunset's resolve and not just actually teach her about her mistakes?

That would require her to actually listen, and we've established that Sunset is too arrogant for that.

7300493
Believe me Killroy.... I'm still never forgiving Celestia for doing that to Twilight in the final season.

TWILIGHT SPARKLE HAD HER OWN LIFE FOR GOODNESS SAKE! SHE DOESN'T NEED TO ATTAIN A POSITION AS RULER OF EQUESTRIA AT ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

7300960
Was too arrogant but still she couldve atleast done something. She has thousands of years of experience as a ruler and you're gonna tell me she cant teach an unruly child?

7301001
Unfortunately, the writers(both the show and comic ones) did too much a good job of making her slothful.

7301001
like I said, she was trying to teach her differently and Sunset is the one who refused to learn.