Advice sought: Equestrian obscene gestures & Patreon reward tier replacement · 1:41pm Jun 26th, 2017
So let's see what the group makes of these...
How do you give somepony the finger when you don't have fingers?
Anyone who's spent time around horses quickly becomes aware that the typical equine conducts much of their speech in body language. Ears rotate forward, get pressed back. Hoofs stomp. Tails flick. And if a tail is flicking while a hoof is pawing at the ground and the ears are going back? Run.
I try to bring some of that into my writing. A startled pony will have their ear posture reflect it: angry ones will lose tail control, and those who are truly furious will often find their heads dropping into a pre-charge pose. But that's just for emotions.
Ponies have their verbal curses. And any species that physically expressive is going to figure out a few body postures which indicate a pony who really doesn't like you. However, when it comes to expressing something toward the most vulgar end of the scale...
So in your opinion, what does a pony's obscene gesture look like?
Three ground rules:
* Keep it within the available anatomy and the way a horse's joints would actually move. No anthropomorphic touches.
* While species-appropriate gestures are welcome, a number should be universal. There's probably a few "gestures" unique to pegasi and unicorns. ("Did you just flash your corona at me long-long-short? Oh, you did not just flash your corona at me long-long-short!") And listing ideas for them is fine. But there's got to be a group which anypony can do -- along with a few which smart-@$$ pegasi falsely feel they're getting away with in a groundbound crowd.
* No physical contact. A kick to the face can be seen as an obscene gesture, but good luck explaining it that way to the judge when the assault charges come up.
Other than that, good luck...
On my Patreon page, the $10 pledge level brings a stated reward: every so often, just before I start writing a story, I'll announce that work is about to begin and ask if anyone on that sponsorship tier wants the pre-publication password. (For the non-writers: any story can be viewed prior to submission/approval with this password, and every story has its own.) Those people then get to read the story a little earlier than the rest of the group. I've even had times when the live reader count showed someone looking over my shoulder while the story was still being composed.
FIMFic just decided to ban that.
I'm not joking.
This is the text which currently appears on the New Story page under Unpublished View Password. I've added italics for emphasis.
Provide a password to let people access the story while it's not submitted. This system is intended to make it easy to have people proof read your story. It is explicitly NOT for posting content that is banned on Fimfiction or giving to people as, for example, Patreon backer rewards. This password should not be treated as secure, so don't use one you use for logins!
...was it me?
*sigh* ...okay. It's possible that the intent was to keep people from creating sponsor-exclusive stories. However, what I was doing still falls within the bounds of that new rule, and so I can't do that any more. But it means I need a new reward offering for the $10 level, and honestly? Nothing's coming to mind.
So if you have a concept for a reward which would suit that tier, go ahead and suggest it. I'm (desperately) listening.
Yes, that was an odd combination of blog topics.
Yes, I am expecting at least one person to show up with an obscene gesture directed towards my Patreon page.
Hmm... I can't think of any gestures, but in terms of your patreon, while not a backer myself (sorry, not enough to spare), I can make a suggestion: put your exclusive content up in a Google Drive document and only give the link to people who should be allowed access to it. It may be an extra step if you aren't already using Drive, and there might be ways for people to get around it, but it should hopefully work the way you want it to. I think the only other extra step you'd need to take is formatting the document the way you'd want it to be seen on FimFic, so you'd just need to italicize, bold, etc. on the document instead of using BB coding.
Just a thought.
Turning and lifting a tail seems like a pretty obvious rude gesture (or invitation, depending on context).
Shaken hoof or full foreleg for the pegasi--Fluttershy did that in one episode.
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Turning their hindquarters is an aggressive gesture in IRL horses, typically ("I'm about to kick if you don't do what I say"). I could see that still being popular among the earth ponies.
Unicorns could probably make rude pictures with their horns.
4583553
Death before Google Docs.
And not necessarily my death.
Drag your behind over the ground like dogs, because an itch on your ass is as annoying as the pony you are talking to.
4583556
Hey, if not for Google Docs I would've lost ALL of my content a few weeks ago, so I'm not complaining, but if it ain't your thing, it ain't your thing.
"Enrich the soil".
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Pretty sure pegasi can flip you off with their wings now that wing-hands are canon.
Rude gestures...
I immediately thought of Italian gestures. Here's a list with photographs and descriptions. Some of those could be adapted for ponies. And if a pony is angry enough to rear back on their hind legs for the gestures that require two forelimbs...
Actually, a pony standing rampant might be all that is needed. It is a big, show-y display that would either precede a charge, or sex. (I'm a man of the world. I've seen nature documentaries, I've been to zoos.) Besides, "Rampant" is not only the accepted word for a quadruped standing on only their hind legs, but an old time euphemism for an erection.
Earth Ponies may toss their head up and/or roll their shoulders - a gesture originally meant to say "Excuse me?! Do you see me wearing a Yoke?!"
Clearly, this gesture would pass through the other tribes whose foals grew up around Earth Ponies, because nothing proliferates between races quite like a rude gesture.
This may also help explain why Big Mac wears a yoke constantly -- He could have been a foul-mouthed scrapper as a kid after his parents died, until he saw what it was doing to his siblings for him to be this way. He could wear the yoke as a reminder to not be that guy anymore.
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For what it's worth, the Interactive Rainbow Dash saw your post and said "My life is ruined!", so ....
Tapping the tip of one of your front hooves on the ground says to the pony that its directed at that they are beneath you, because it was a gesture originally used to say "bow for me"
4583556
You could post the chapters directly to Patreon, if that's not also banned for some reason and tier specificity is enabled.
Appro of nothing...
"Rampant" always reminds me of my family crest. One of the symbols is described as a rampant lion. A cursory Google later...
It turns out that my surname is a bastardisation of an old Gaelic word that means "horseman".
Time to do that cliche self-insert?
Now beginning composition on Auk-ward... (Sadly, the site's coding won't let me put the italics into the title.) It will be a 'verse story, and the genre tags are Comedy/Slice Of Life.
in the recent S7 episode "parental glideance", there's a scene where Rainbow Dash makes her wing move like a hand and appears to count on her "fingers" so i couldn't help but imagine her "giving the finger" to someone in a similar fashion...
I think the tail whip thing that "Rainbow Dash" did in To Where and Back could be taken as rude, and any pony could use it.
I want to imagine that Flipping the Bird to someone is a pegasus cultural thing. But it's two staged. If you just want to be insulting, you extend your middle primary feather at them, exactly as humans do it. If you're really peeved at someone, you flip an actual annoyed fowl at them.
Im wondering, depending on if the equomorph is capable, holding a front leg out straight, as to say, this is what you think yo are, then let the end of the leg and hoof dangle towards the ground, as to say, this is what I think you are. The insult being an offence against teh others verility and capability, without enacting such offence physically?
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"Fluttershy must be really pissed. She just threw a goose at the mayor."
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They've become self-aware.
I know I'm a bit late to the party with some of these. Saw this blog shortly before a meeting.
Pegasi have perhaps the most vulgar gesture potential, what with the extra limbs. Being able to hover in a roughly bipedal posture allows for all kinds of expressive foreleg motions, to say nothing of a good gust to the face. ("If you like the breeze coming out of your mouth so much, have one to go with it.") And depending on how prehensile you want feathers to be, you can have them flip the bird in several ways at once, though that's more likely to come from those who are familiar with griffin gestures.
With unicorns, forming shapes in coronae seems like the favored mode of expression, though coded bursts could definitely work when insulting another tribe without letting on. Indeed, if ponies beat minotaurs to inventing the telegraph, the inventor may be one of the most creatively vulgar unicorns in history.
It's hard to think of anything earth pony-specific that might work in the Continuum, but generic options include scraping the ground with a rear hoof as a possible dismissive gesture, certain asymmetrical ear positionings that normally just don't happen, and the brief unveiling of some orifices that are normally rendered invisible because the show's rated TV-Y.
Oh, and one more thought: Zecora may use certain rhyme structures to denote respect or the lack thereof.
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Yes, nothing conveys a lack of respect quite like a limerick.
Flicking someone with your tail would definitely be considered rude. Since (a) you're slapping them in the face with part of your butt and (b) it's the same method real horses use to get rid of insects like flies. The meaning would be "You are an annoying pest and I want you gone NOW"
4583556 What's wrong with Gdocs?
For Griffons, turn your back and scratch the ground like a cat in a litter box. Obvious meaning.
Use a front claw like you're flicking something out of your mouth towards them. Disrespect -you are something I ate (that didn't taste good)
For everyone, point towards your mouth & make gagging sounds.
I am fairly certain I remember Pinkie using the gesture of running a hoof across the mouth to mean "mum's the word"
I actually just thought of something that could potentially be universal. Ponify the ol' Shakespearean insult and bite their hoof in someone's direction. ("Do you bite your thumb at me, sir?")
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Could be that a previous experience in trying to import left a sour taste in his mouth, but there are other things about GDocs that people just generally don't like. I personally use it because 1) it auto-saves, 2) the docs are saved in the Cloud so you can access them anywhere, and 3) it allows for easy collaboration (ie editing), but for people that don't need those kinds of uses, it's really not a huge necessity.
4583556
I've never used this myself, but it was mentioned on ferret's blog.
https://beta.cryptpad.fr
Maybe it would work for you?
Well, with horses they can wrinkle up their nose and show their front teeth.
It just occurred to me that this could vary by tribe or by Species.
I remember reading that in the USA making a circle with your thumb and forefinger means "Okay" but in Europe you are calling them an asshole.
Also, when the British call someone a cowboy, they do NOT mean it as a compliment. Here in Phoenix, it's calling them rugged or manly. (Can also mean reckless -depends on context)
I think they get it across just fine with their hooves.
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(Side note: looks like Fimfic doesn't handle large images so well anymore. You can still click through to the source image at least...)
On Patreon rewards, offer a vote for which story you'll work on/release first in the next month for $10?
4583658
Or, indeed, an assonance. Requires no extra words on top of a normal couplet, but lets the person know they aren't worth the trouble of finding a rhyme.
On the pony side, tapping one rear hoof against the other rear leg.
Well, I really liked the old reward, but if fimfic is gonna make that illegal for some dumb reason I guess an alternative has to be found. If you're not comfortable finding a service like Gdocs to replace it as a preview platform, would you rather do something like 4583591 said and just put it directly on patreon behind the 10 dollar paywall?
As far as obscene gestures go, they could do like a quick jerking motion with their foreleg, calling that other pony a jerk-off. If that's even applicable to equine forms.
4583592
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OTT, but someone made a show about you.
*Does light research on horse communication*
Alright, let's see.
Universal:
-Poking or pushing somepony in the shoulder or hip could be extremely rude, like implying the other pony is below/inferior to them or not respectable. An extremely derogatory and imperious gesture.
-Nipping at another pony. Not necessarily actually biting them, but biting in their direction to tell them "bitch I'm about to put you in your place".
-Tail flicking, as mentioned: "bothersome fly" or, if done with less decency, some equivalent of "fuck you", "go fuck yourself", "suck it", "bite my ass", etc.
-Kicking dirt in another pony's direction could be extremely offensive from a unicorn or a pegasus, like a white person saying n*****.
Unicorn:
-Flicking the head up could mean "up yours".
Not sure for magical gestures. Flash Morse Code? A majority of unicorns might know enough snippets of Morse Code, as well as some stuff that's been made up over time, to have a small, rude vocabulary.
Pegasus:
-Like someone else said, a gust of wind to the face, possibly originally meant to throw another pegasus off balance and make them look bad. It could have similar sentiment in modern Equestria.
-Spreading out the primary feathers of one or both wings could mean "I'm done wasting my time with you", or some equivalent like "fuck you" or "I don't wanna hear it".
Thestral (if they exist in this verse):
-Gust of wind, like the pegasi.
-Folding the ears down (a bit context-reliant): implying the pony speaking is a bothersome noise, kinda like the tail-flicking thing.
Earth Pony:
I'm not sure what gestures would be exclusively earth pony.
Griffon:
-Rubbing the claws and ending with sticking the thumb out could mean "you're of no benefit/worth to me".
-I also like some ideas Sweetolebob18 had for griffons:
4583748
At least in central Canada, the circle-thumb motion is rapidly becoming a mocking gesture, largely in part due to the leader of our southern neighbour being a tool.
Making that gesture and accompanying it with a "believe me," indicates sarcasm.
Late to the party, but a lot of people have made some great suggestions. Here's a few gestures I like the idea of:
Starting with pegasi, lots of their body language can come from their wings. Combine that with a warrior culture ancestry, and not only do you have potential for much more serious gestures, but also the possibility of the most gestures amongst the three tribes. We can see that pegasi wings are quite flexible and can work as secondary appendages, so some actions humans are capable of could easily be translated through them. Some form of flipping the bird probably wouldn't work quite well, but instead: a throat-slice gesture with a wing, ruffling feathers, idly preening to display disinterest (maybe even heavily exaggerated), suddenly thrusting wings out (if you approve of wing-blades, then this becomes much more of a threatening gesture), and stealthily or pointedly creating a gust of wind that hits someone (maybe even a group). There's much more potential if you take the time to ponder and create your own wing gesture, which would probably involve a lot of avian and military research to figure out just what you can invent, but pegasi definitely have it easiest.
With unicorns, most would immediately go down the path of magic. However, there are two big problems for a unicorn to use magic for this purpose: 1. As an abuse of magic, flaunting it in such a way is not only displaying a lack of creativity by the individual (would definitely make sense for most of the Canterlot nobility), but certain actions could be seen as assault. 2. Hitting someone with magic, if even with the most minimal amount of power projected, is quite literally playing with fire. If word spreads of such behavior, not only might the unicorn get in trouble with the law, but as this sort of behavior is definitely regulated by whatever power presides over magic usage in Equestria (probably the royal sisters, but in a fic, could also be through some sort of magic society or circle), the perpetrator could lose their right to use magic within the borders of Equestria, maybe even be blacklisted throughout the world. With great power comes great responsibility, and unlike the pegasi, who come from a warrior culture and would be more lax with such displays, unicorns are more..."proper," maybe even "civilized," in their terms. Such a ruffian going about making a bad name for unicorns, nevermind threatening the lives of others if just one thing went wrong while casting the spell, would definitely warrant action to subdue this behavior. As a result, more appropriate gestures would either be through body language of superiority, borrowed earth pony insults, their own hoof gestures, and gestures utilizing their horn, maybe pointing it more downwards in a threatening display, or straight forward as if to lance their target. Their main game would probably be through displays of superiority, though, especially through outwitting their foe. Perhaps using advanced language, maybe somehow using reverse psychology to make them insult themselves (Bugs Bunny style), and definitely quick wit and banter against other unicorns.
Last but not least, we have earth ponies. This group has the most obvious available gestures, which have been adapted by the other races due to their simplicity, though not all of them will work with the other races. These can be seen as the "core" body language of the three Equestrian tribes, and while I will mention several in this group, there's definitely a possibility that they could have originated from another tribe, maybe even multiple tribes independently. You've got your basics: tail flicking, ear twitching, pointing their head downwards as if to charge. While I appreciate your dedication to Earth equine anatomy, these equines are much different, seeing as several movements that they make would be incredibly difficult for our world's ponies to pull off, if not impossible. So if you want an absolutely loyal-to-anatomy answer, I'm sorry, but this is where I branch off. As someone mentioned in the comments, Fluttershy has been seen holding her hoof towards someone in anger, but I don't think that's as much of a "flipping the bird" improvisation as it is the old fashioned "fist in the air in a threatening gesture," except with a hoof. Maybe it could be interpreted that way as well, or maybe at a specific angle or position (no holding the foreleg up with the other), but for now I'm thinking of it as a threat rather than derogatory. Equines placing their hooves in a boxing position while standing upright, or more equine behavior friendly, rearing up, is another threatening gesture, or perhaps an invitation to challenge. More inclined towards earth ponies, turning around as if to buck would be a traditional threat, or display of annoyance, and good ol' kicking up dust, which could actually have a much deeper meaning considering earth ponies tie to nature, and quite literally, the earth below. And of course, there would be old-fashioned earth ponies with their countryisms that have plenty of insults. There's probably much more, but I'm not an expert on Earth's equine biology and behaviors, so without doing some more research, that's my limit for now.
There's so much more you can discover yourself if you take the time to think about the other species, not to mention the magical creatures of the world, and how that could also influence body language, but that's it for Equestrian rude gestures! I hope you and any other readers found this useful, feel free to use any of these ideas...though I would appreciate if I was given a bit of credit!
I procrastinate too much to write everything I've already got outlines for, nevermind all the forms of entertainment to catch up on (gaming, movies, shows, learning, etc), so I don't really have a voice to be heard, aside from by my friends on here and the occasional comment respondent. Take care and pony on! 
Maybe for earth ponies only, but what about lifting up one leg and then tilting your hoof to the side (like a broken or lame limb) to indicate that someone or something is lame?
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The chin flick from the Italian hand gestures is pretty well known in most of the US. I'd imagine that would be pretty easy and casually insulting for a pony to pull off with the tip of their hoof. Would be pretty universally capable by all the various species too.
Zoo monkies fling their poop at people. I'm PRETTY SURE that transcends linguistic and cultural barriers & is close to universal.
Diamond Dogs might do that.
A parrot owner told me that perching higher than you is a Dominance gesture. Pegasi might use that.
Well Georg made the suggestion I was going to about the showing of the teeth.
That thing horses do where they curl back their lips and show their teeth and gums?
I like horses but- Guh!
I'm sure I've seen that somewhere before.
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Skip the scratching, it's undignified, and frankly just turning your back on them is sufficient. What better insult in a predatory race than a clear demonstration that you don't consider them a threat?
I also figure gryphon body language has a lot of subtleties that ponies just don't catch. Things like relative head position as an indicator of the dominance in conversation; or eye contact where as in cats, not maintaining eye contact is a measure of comfort with the subject as they do not need to be watched for threats.
That said, the best gryphon insult I can think of is a light backhanded slap across the nose. Probably extremely painful to a pony, but to another gryphon, it is just an emphatic demonstration that the target is both not worth dirtying one's talons, and is too weak to fight back.
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Horses lifting up their upper lips like that is actually the Flehmen response and happens when a horse (or several other animals) smells something that it wants to analyse further using a special sensory organ above the roof of the mouth. Jacobson's organ? Anyway, it's not in any way a form of aggression.
In horses, it happens... just... a whole lot. At anything.
From my experience it happens a lot when stallions are trying to tell if mares are currently receptive, or when a mare has just given birth and is memorising the scent of her foal. And when foals are gambolling around and suddenly one of them has to sniff something very intently and then all of the foals in the herd are trotting around with their lips in the air because they've just discovered how to do this and everything smells great. (Context - my grandparents rent out their land to their 'neighbour' who breeds Welsh Mountain and Shetland Ponies in return for meat, and I've spent many summers hanging out throwing pieces of apples and carrots at them.)
So, it probably wouldn't end up as an obscene gesture as such, but one that could be incredibly rude in certain circumstances. Something that the kids do almost on instinct and have to be taught to hold back the impulse in order to be polite.
Horses being rude to each other though... hard stares in the eye. Stealing food. Moving into personal space and/or leaning. Swinging the hindquarters around to show they're happy to kick if necessary. Baring teeth - not in the Flehmen's way but actual 'hey look i'm about to bite you so get lost' teeth.
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Sniff sniff vs
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Anger
Still, there's going to be a difference between aggressive behaviours based on fear and dominance, and behaviours designed to be rude for the sake of rudeness, which is a mostly human concept.
As for ponies - before you think of the gestures themselves, think of the meanings behind most of the obscene ones, and then try to work out how a pony might communicate those nonverbally.
You rule out physical actions, but nibbing is, iirc, how horses express irritation.
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I love that you can almost see that horse's
fangscanine teeth in that picture.camo.derpicdn.net/67a09ecfa2dbe60a24421727274781e1fc431b35?url=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-jlS-mC-r_IM%2FUhzI5ytxo1I%2FAAAAAAAACUY%2FIRbutYuPluc%2Fs1600%2FPony%2BTeeth_edited-1.jpg
Which makes me think, maybe baring canine teeth as opposed to just incisors could also be a threat/warning for ponies (assuming equine dentition).
Short answer: dunno.
Less short answer: As some of you know, flipping the bird originated from the war practice of cutting off captured archers' middle fingers, as such were important to nocking arrows. An archer flaunting a middle finger was flaunting their ability to kill. Suuu that's not obvious, but now I have some ideas.
Unicorns, if they can make free-floating glows: a ring about the size of a neck, contracting.
Pegasi, depending whether wing-blades are a thing and doubly on the exact shape and mounting: single stabbing motion with the "knuckle" of the wing. If that's the wrong term, then I mean the place where the thumb claw is on a bat's (or batpony's) wing. Might be different if wing-blades, too, are different.
Earth ponies, whose gestures are most prone to adoption and therefore dilution: digging a tiny hole (or scratching/tracing an area when actual digging would damage the floor or road) supposedly big enough to bury the body.
I'm not sure if it's been suggested yet, but a quick scraping of the hind hooves could work. Think of a dog slinging dirt over its fresh shit, only it's a tiny sentient ungulate slinging dirt over the idea of a pony they hate.
Canonically, shaking hooves at people seems to be a rude gesture, similar to shaking a fist at someone.
Ponies could, sitting back on their hindquarters, also make the "up yours" gesture (that is to say, crossing one foreleg across their chest, then bending the other up underneath it).
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Only suggestion I have is one obscene gesture that would be specific to earth ponies. A sort of false call that any earth pony nearby can feel, and know perfectly well what it means. Also depending on range and skill it could also be directed enough that maybe only the earth pony you're insulting notices it.
4583693 Fluttershy even does that in one episode. I think it's either discorded Fluttershy, or new Fluttershy (iron will) but know she flicks her tail like a whip in someone's face.