Ships, character growth, and unfortunate implications · 5:32pm Sep 23rd, 2014
In the comments of my post yesterday, JustAnotherTimeLord made some comments about character growth and ships like RariJack and TwiDash, and asked me what I thought.
That’s always a dangerous question. It turns out I think quite a lot.
What I think about this is that character growth and relationships is a messy subject.
I think character growth should have very little to do with who exactly a character is dating, and more to do with the character themselves.
And I think that when character growth is connected to the specific characters in a relationship, there are some unfortunate implications the writer needs to be careful to avoid.
But it wouldn’t be an official bookplayer opinion if I didn’t back it up with 2000 words of rambling! So here we go...
First, let’s look at three ways that ships can help a character grow and change, specifically based on the romance:
Trait transferal: The core of opposites attract for many people- the idea that two very different characters will change to be more like the other, tempering extreme personality traits. This isn’t limited to opposites attract, any two characters with some aspect that seems to exist at different ends of the spectrum can be written together to grow like this. For example, Applejack and Rainbow Dash aren’t opposites, but they have opposite goals for the future, so Rainbow Dash could influence Applejack to be more adventurous with her future and Applejack could show Rainbow Dash the importance of having something stable to fall back on.
Party balance: This is the opposite of trait transferal-- when two characters are too similar in a way that makes it hard for them to act as a unit, one will start to change to fill in a needed space-- for example, Pinkie and Rainbow Dash might not be the most responsible ponies, so one of them could decide that if they’re going to date, she’d better be the one who keeps things from getting out of control (also: Someone needs to write a fic about that called Party Balance.)
Maturing: Frankly, this is the one I prefer. In short, one or both character(s) run into some point in beginning or maintaining a relationship where they’re going to have to take on new responsibilities, be more communicative, be more empathetic, focus on different things, or in general face a new situation in their romantic lives… so they figure out how to do it while maintaining their relationship. This is equally possible in any ship, though each ship will flavor how it happens: Applejack and Twilight getting engaged will be different from Applejack and Rarity getting engaged, Rainbow Dash figuring out how to ask out Pinkie will be different from how she would need to ask out Fluttershy. But any situation that’s new to the character will require some kind of growth, and relationships in general present plenty of these: first dates, first nights together, engagements and weddings (or deciding not to marry), breaking up, getting back together, traveling, career changes, moving in together, buying houses, having children (or deciding not to) and parenting, retirement, old age.
The important distinction here is that it’s not the character reacting to being with another specific pony, it’s them reacting to a new part of their lives (or what they hope will be a new part of their lives) which includes figuring out how it will involve the pony they love.
I have a suspicion that when many people talk about how a ship would help a character grow or change, they actually are thinking of these situations, and thinking that some ships make it more interesting than others. But that’s not really true. Some ships have some automatic conflicts for these things (Getting AJ and Rarity together might be a bumpy road, AJ and Dash have an issue when it comes to Dash becoming a Wonderbolt, or Rarity and Pinkie would probably not agree on parenting techniques) but conflicts can just as easily be something from outside that an otherwise agreeable couple has to work out together (Applejack and Twilight are going on vacation but lose their plans and maps and have to wing it; Rarity and Rainbow Dash don’t want foals, but have to survive Hearth’s Warming Eve with Rarity’s mother, who can’t understand why they wouldn’t.) Every couple has to grow and change to face life.
Now, as I said, I prefer characters to grow and change in reaction to a situation rather than to each other. This is because, while reacting to each other can certainly be done perfectly well, there’s a ton of room to mess it up. This usually takes the form of Unfortunate Implications-- a totally unintentional message the fic seems to be sending that, if translated into real life or in relation to real life things, would be harmful or offensive.
This is not Social Justice Warrior BS, it’s being a writer BS. Everyone knows that stories have morals and messages, symbols, allusions, metaphors, allegories, etc. Readers look for those things, you want readers to look for those things because those things are what a good story is about. And when they see one they strongly disagree with, they will have a problem with it. It can ruin a story. If you meant to put it there, that’s a risk you took, but just because you didn’t mean to put it there doesn’t mean it’s not just as there.
And yes, people can read too much into things. They can overreact. And you are certainly not to blame for messages you didn’t even know you were putting into a story, assuming you really never thought about it that way. But people can also stop halfway through your story, and downvote your story, and decide they don’t like your ship. As a writer, and someone who (theoretically) wants people to write more of the ship you like, you don’t want that to happen.
Because relationships are fraught with gender related roles and issues, and there are relationship models that people in the western world consider to be psychologically unhealthy or abusive, they can be a breeding ground for all kinds of unfortunate implications. Several of them are related to character growth and change in relationships, because messages about how someone should act in a relationship have been used to control people or reinforce gender roles in fiction and real life for a long time.
So, the danger zones that spring to my mind when I hear about how a ship will help Character X grow are:
Unfortunate Implication #1: Changing to please a partner. Obviously characters should grow; they should grow in a story whether it's about a relationship or not. But when that growth seems to be only because they’re in or want to be in a relationship, things can get kind of creepy in terms of the message of the story. You might see Fluttershy becoming more assertive as a good thing, but if she’s only doing it to please a love interest then it’s a different matter-- in that case it’s no different from Rarity trying to pretend to be a farmer to please Trenderhoof.
Unfortunate Implication #2: Enforcing gender presentation. Especially in FlutterDash and RariJack, there's a risk of unintentionally sending the message that masculine/feminine traits are better than the alternative. A story where Dash learns to be more sensitive from Fluttershy or AJ learns to be more ladylike from Rarity can easily seem like "they need to act more like girls." On the other side, Fluttershy becoming more assertive or Rarity learning to embrace her rustic side can easily come across as "they need to stop being so girly." Either one is problematic, but the “they need to act more like girls” implication is especially likely to seem gross to some readers who grew up with messages of that type.
(As I said before, and will say again, this can be done in a way that avoids the implications. The show gets away with these kinds of things in a few ways-- they show the whole spectrum to balance it (for every episode about Dash becoming more sensitive there's one about Fluttershy becoming more assertive) and often the characters learn these lessons in ways that make sure they're still promoting positive or neutral sides of their masculine or feminine aspects (for example, arguably May the Best Pet Win was part of teaching Dash to be more sensitive, but the episode was framed as a competition, and the pets involved were gender neutral. If she’d learned the same lesson at the butterfly migration with Fluttershy, there would be a very different implication. Similarly, Dog and Pony Show showed Rarity being tough while also being a lady. Had she been forced to turn into a kick ass ninja, that would have been a different lesson.) It's possible to do it this way in a single ship fic, but a lot harder with a limited amount of writing.)
Unfortunate Implication #3: There’s something wrong with a character the way she is, and her partner needs to help her change it. This is frequently a cop out for a character not changing for love-- Fluttershy needs to be more assertive, so she changes to be more assertive… because reasons. Flaws are types of personality traits, and they’re in the eye of the beholder. There are many people who might think that Fluttershy doesn’t need to be more assertive. Still, it’s not unreasonable for a character to change and grow out of a “flaw.” The question is, if they’re not doing it for love, why are they doing it? Why do they think it’s a flaw in themselves that they want to change?
Here’s an interesting part of this I’ve thought about a lot. I’ve talked about Rarity’s lady act being a facade, and it is, she’s much tougher than she pretends to be, she’ll get dirty when she has to for somepony she cares about, her eyelashes are fake and she obviously didn’t get that accent growing up in Ponyville around her parents and sister. And, as I said in the last post, underneath she’s not very different from Applejack. So, when writing a RariJack fic, why not have AJ help her get comfortable with her true self?
What is her true self? Think of it this way, what if she was transgendered? Would her true self be the things she grew up with, and is willing to fall back on when she has to, or would they be the things she adopted and turned into “Rarity?” Is it really different if she’s always been a mare, and decided her true self is a refined lady, even if she had the misfortune of not being born in Canterlot to nobles? If that’s who she thinks she is, then asking her to be the pony she is underneath is asking her to deny her true self, which would be an unfortunate implication.
On the other hand, maybe that’s not her true self, it was a business decision, or something she’s doing just to fit in with the fashion crowd. Simple Ways would seem to contradict that, but that could easily be what you think, and how you intend it. If that’s the way you see it, you need to make that clear before people get the wrong idea.
Unfortunate Implication #4: There’s a right way to progress through life. This one is the danger of “maturing” growth. A fic about Rainbow Dash deciding to leave the Wonderbolts and settle down to raise a family could easily seem to be saying that starting a family is the right thing even for fiercely independent, career oriented people. A fic about Applejack deciding to leave the farm and pursue some other ambition could be seen as promoting the idea that living a simple life surrounded by family isn’t as good as chasing fame and fortune. If you’re not careful, you’re likely to tick off people who actually chose, or respect people who chose, the kind of life the character is so quick to leave behind.
Most of these are overcome very simply by making sure that what you write is presented as the logical (or in character) choice of that specific character acting without coercion. But when someone tells me that they like Ship Z because of how it lets the characters grow and change in some way, these things jump to my mind. If the writer is making the characters change in some way that they wouldn’t be likely to change without this specific ship, that’s not usually a good thing.
So, to sum up, character growth is a good thing. Character growth is a good thing in ship fics. Character growth when it’s being caused or heavily affected by the other pony in a ship is a thing that can go very wrong, and should be handled with care.
I like ships simply because of how the characters will play off each other. Like different flavours of ice cream.
RainbowPie is a very high energy ship. Lots of pranking and high speed antics.
Whereas RariPie is a much more creative ship. Given Rarity and Pinkie are both artists in their own unique ways.
And TwiPie is just cosy.
2477367 This.
Ironically, the part of Fluttershy Is Free (most definitely a ship story in the Flutterarc) which isn't about Fluttershy's (successful) assertion of her own identity against both her paternal and maternal families, or her (unsuccessful) attempt to tell Rainbow Dash the truth about Fluttershy's paternal heritage is mostly about Rainbow Dash relearning the quiet appreciation of beauty from Fluttershy. So what do you think my implications were there?
Ah, but Rarity in some ways already is a "kick ass" character. She is one of the fiercest members of the Mane Six in a fight, she is one of the most physically aggressive Ponies period, and she is rather obviously a trained martial artist. Her preferred mode of combat is hoof-to-hoof, and she's good at it.
My Luna (herself a kick ass character, no offense meant to any Donkeys present) notices this in Nightmares Are Tragic:
Indeed, it's one of the reasons I'm pro-Sparity -- Rarity is one of the most Dragonish Ponies around. Including the propensity to resolve matters by direct violence when sufficiently provoked.
What I think Rarity demonstrates is that femininity and competence at violence are not necessarily incompatible. She reminds me of a 17th-18th century French gentleman -- very much into fashion, and very good at fighting.
2477409
Well, there's the potential for it to make me raise my eyebrows. And it's probably, as part of a larger trend in fics about Rainbow Dash and Fluttershy, part of the reason I don't tend to read FlutterDash fics. That being said, I'm not sure how gendered "quiet contemplation of beauty" comes across, so in your case it might be just fine.
Agreed, but had she used it in that episode, it would have had unfortunate implications. When the focus is on how Rarity doesn't need Spike or her more rough and tumble friends to save her, having that be because she's also capable of violence would be pretty much admitting that you need to be capable of violence to take care of yourself (which, in our culture, has gender implications even if it doesn't in Equestria.) So even if she's capable of it, for that episode it was important that she not use it.
I'll be frank here: As a writer you shouldn't care much about implications. Any guy with a coffee-shop degree will pretend that you're implying shit with every sentence you write. If you write a story to suggest that meek people need to be more outgoing and aggressive and you intend it, good on you, you got your opinion out there. If you write a story that suggests that meek people need to be more outgoing and aggressive and you didn't intend it, then it doesn't matter, and the reader is simply coloring in the lines you laid down.
That's the problem with overanalyzing shit like Anita Sarkeesian (though that's the least of her problems); you bend and twist words enough, search for a meaning enough, and you'll eventually find it and see messages in there that don't exist, like those faggots that shoot up a school because stairway to heaven backwards told them to.
Not every story will have an aseop. Sometimes it's just people being people. Or, uh, ponies being ponies if you're some sorta lame furry.
2477443
Could be worse.
Could be CheesePie. Where nothing of actual consequence can happen without drastically changing one of the characters since they're so similar.
2477431
Fluttershy Is Free has nothing to do with gender. It's about the difference between the apparent and the actual, and the difficulty communicating the unbelievable truth.
Fluttershy is apparently timid and weak, but actually she has an extremely strong will. This is empasized in the Flutterarc by the fact that Dragonshyness (in which she Stares down a Dragon) comes earlier, but even in-story she defied her mother's family's desire that she conform to their model of being a Pegasus, defied her mother to seek out the truth about her paternity, and then defied ... read the story ... to assert that she would live as a free being rather than a thrall. Her true nature she keeps hidden most of the time.
Rainbow Dash is apparently a rough, tough, boisterous and crude Pegasus, but actually she has an extremely soft center -- she's capable of great love, and has a very strong sense of and appreciation for beauty. Yes, she really is a tough customer in a fight, and a great athlete, but she's nowhere near as superficial as she pretends to be. She pretends to be superficial so that the world can't too easily hurt her.
Their relationship may or may not be unhealthy in some ways. Fluttershy originally gravitated toward Rainbow Dash because Rainbow protected her; she doesn't really need protection any more but she's come to love Rainbow's essence. (In more ways than one, read the story, and I am not being dirty here). Rainbow Dash originally protected Fluttershy because Dashie views herself as a heroine and a heroine needs someone to protect, but it's grown deeper than that: she's in awe of Fluttershy's beauty, both of body and spirit.
They fail to communicate sufficiently in the story, and this has a lot to do with why their love ultimately fails. That gets mentioned in retrospect fairly early in Divine Jealousy and the Voice of Reason. Though their friendship never fails, and their carnal love might be resumed -- but carnality was never the essence of their attraction to one other.
Fluttershy's a goddess, and Rainbow Dash was the first to realize this, not consciously but intuitively. Too bad Dashie doesn't realize that she too is a goddess in her own right. But then Rainbow Dash, beneath her bravado, is more than a little bit insecure.
As for Fluttershy, she loves her first worshiper. And recognizes how rare and special and wonderful is Dashie.
I found this fascinating.
I didn't quite agree with the RariJack essay (that's fine, we see the characters differently), but this one really hits many nails on the head. In particular, "they're too similar/it would be too boring." "He would bring her out of her shell! She would calm him down!" In another words, one of them would "fix" the other. And the character I see this most often applied to is Pinkie.
I'm a Pinkaphile, so this is biased, but I honestly don't think she needs to be "corrected " or "fixed" or "settled down." She's grown a lot, because she needed to. Good for her! And that's part of her character, too: the funniest and wildest character in the show says repeatedly that she wants who she is and what she does to be taken seriously, and this requires work on her part (and that of her friends). She's had existential crises over this: "who I am is not ok/not good enough." And it's always been affirmed that who she is, at her gut, is okay and to be accepted (even if it's treated as "oh, that's just Pinkie being Pinkie.)
I don't like the idea of her being "fixed" or "balanced" by another character. She's not broken, and Pinkie doesn't need to be fixed. She needs to be accepted. Really, that applies to any character. Any Pinkie ship that can't establish that her partner basically accepts her, which frequently means accepting what they can't understand, loses my sympathy fast.
And I guess this applies to Rainbow Dash and Fluttershy, too. We've seen all of them grow and change, sometimes because a situation has come up that needed them to. But shoving Fluttershy into being more aggressive--kinda interesting how that has never worked.
The characters do frequently change in response to another character, but in a lot of cases, that's been a younger sibling, or in Pinkie's case, the baby Cakes. The older character chooses to do things differently or to grow because the circumstances require it, but it's not that Pound and Pumpkin are sitting there thinking, "now, how can we force Pinkie to grow up?"
My "go down with my ship" ship is CheesePie, and I hear "they're too similar" all the time. My guilty pleasure is FlutterDash, and I hear "they have nothing in common" all the time. But in either case, the key has to be "I respect you and accept you for who you are." And probably that's on the writer to do that. Maybe the issue is that almost any ship develops a default mode, where 85-95% of all [RariJack, FlutterDash, PinkieDash] fics will show the dynamic happening in the exact same way. Which means that a lot of people really don't want to give the other 5-15% a chance.
2477451
But... what you're implying is your story.
Fools Gold never comes out and says "Sometimes violence is necessary." (Or, maybe it does, but that will hardly convince people to enjoy the story.) It shows and implies it, but that's an implication we can all agree with. And it's necessary for the story, if you or PC or Jake hadn't implied it, it would have been a very different story where we would have expected punishment for the girls at the end.
Now what if you had the same "sometimes violence is necessary" implication, but it was between, say, Big Mac facing off against an evil Fluttershy he used to be married to... can you not see where some people would find that story a little... creepy in the face of things like Ray Rice? Sure, in the story Fluttershy is really evil, but there's an unfortunate implication.
Those things happen in terms of gender roles, too. And it's no different, in terms of being creepy.
There should be a way to like blog posts
also this:
so much this.
2477452 I take strong exception to that. I write a lot of CheesePie, and I defy you to find that either is out of character.
While I can agree with 2477451 that writing itself isn't about implications, I always think back to Mother Night's message about writing. I don't really want to be a person who (frex) portrays rape or murder as normal. Everybody has different lines, of course.
I still don't get why "social justice warrior" is an insult, though. It's akin to 'suffragette' or 'abolitionist'. Who wants to come out in favor of social injustice, and why shouldn't I want to pour a full spittoon over their head? I can't imagine the opposite being a reasonable position. It's like how people who bibble the phrase "political correctness" when what they mean is "My feeeeeeelings are so fragile I cannot even be told I offended someone!"
That just seems whiny.
I can't tell what point you're trying to make with this analogy. Clarification?
Interesting reading. I'm not known as a shipper and have only written one romance story, but reading through this blog post definitely gave me space for some critical thoughts on it.
2477682
That an identity that someone assumes later in life is not necessarily the "false" identity covering their "true" self in some cases. So talking about helping them to embrace the identity underneath it/the one they were born and raised with might be the opposite of helping them "be themselves," and be disrespectful in that case.
When I use it that way, the emphasis is on warrior, because I have seen people use social justice causes as a weapon, to bully or insult people, or to advance their careers or social position among their friends. It's good for feminists and other social justice advocates to have a separate term to talk about those people.
100/10 would read.
Typo? maybe.
Hmmm, I really appreciate this, particularly the thoughts on unfortunate implications. I think often with fanfiction in particular, I read a lot of stuff that's... widely varying in degree of competence, and it's easy to have something that's technically well-written stand out as a consequence. But when that same story has certain awkward assertions underlying the writing, it can end up with a very strange duality of thinking 'hey this is good' but being very deeply bothered by it at the same time. (My own personal example: I've read and enjoyed several of Estee's works. But Sonic Rainbigot really really fundamentally bothers me, moreso than any number of 'bad' stories)
I don't claim that the point is that the writer should handicap themselves to ensure they don't put across bad hidden messages, but that it's good to be aware of what we do and why. Even when the 'whys' are often deeply intertwined with societal/cultural background. I'd say the majority of the time something is an 'unfortunate implication', it's because we're using an incorrect and old trope because it's easy, and actually considering the problem and resolving it may be more work, but results in a stronger story.
2477809
That's an excellent point, the happier you're making the ship look, the more this stuff sticks out because of the dissonance-- "Aww, the characters are happy! Wait, that's why they're happy? Umm...." -- where as an approach that acknowledges that something not-quite-healthy is going on, or one that straight up addresses it, makes for a better story.
2477919
This. Thank you. This is exactly what I was trying to say.
2477451 Indeed.
As a general rule, I take so called "lessons" from stories with a grain of salt.
I don't analyze every fine detail down to the microscopic pore on a hair follicle.
Hell, I just sort each character into multiple sub groups, depending upon the story.
And I never did take up anything more than that.
Taking up serious interpretations of these kinds of stories is just asking for trouble if you ask me.
They are called "fantasy romance" for a reason.
They are a fantasy, and nothing more.
So how would you react to the definition of love as a combination of wanting to spend time with someone and wanting to become a better person for them? That last part specifically; it may have been worded differently, or may have meant to be worded differently, but that's what I've heard as a (sociological?) definition of the meaning. It kinda flies in the face of what you're getting at here. :B I ask because I've already used it in stories of my own and I don't know shit about love or personal growth or anything really. D:
2478149
The difference between me agreeing with that or not depends on whose definition of a "better person."
There are the elements of harmony type qualities that most people and characters would agree are part of being a good person/pony, but then we each have individual values on top of that. For Applejack, being a good pony might mean being a hard worker and taking care of your family; for Rarity it might mean acting with grace and manners. And, obviously, what you think of as a good person is important to how you become a better person.
The healthy ideal would be for the character to want to be a good person/pony for the other by their own metric. There's nothing questionable at all about Rarity wanting to impress Applejack by being the most generous, well mannered, gracious pony she could be. Where it gets fuzzy is when she's trying to be better by being what someone else thinks is good. In some cases that's not so bad-- if Rarity tried to be more hardworking to impress Applejack by taking on more dress orders, that was probably something she knew was good anyway. If Applejack was unimpressed, Rarity would still feel good about that. But if the whole thing would have been worthless to her if Applejack wasn't impressed-- say she doesn't really like her parents, but tries to spend time with them to be a better pony by Applejack's definition -- we're edging towards Simple Ways behavior.
So, my interpretation of that quote is that Rarity should be trying to be a better Rarity, and if Applejack loves Rarity she'll appreciate that.
2478149 You'll run into trouble with that question (I know this because I've run into the same trouble myself) for a very simple reason:
Very few people will have the same thing in mind when you say "love."
If I may hazard a response to your specific use of the term, though: there's a line being crossed between making yourself better by your own definition of better and making yourself better by your partner's definition of better. One's creepy (at the very least) the other is healthy and fine.
And only a very introspective pony can really tell you which is happening.
For instance: imagine a FlutterDash fic where Dash becomes a member of the Wonderbolts touring team, and needs to make public appearances, and wants to bring her marefriend along. Fluttershy, deciding going to these events is a good way to both spend time with Dash and show her support, starts working hard to be extra friendly and charming.
Is she doing it so that Rainbow Dash will be happy with her, or at least not disappointed? Could be unfortunate implications.
Is she doing it because she thinks that if she learns to enjoy social functions she'll be a happier pony whether she'd at an event with Dash or just hanging out at the spa with rarity? Fortunate implications.
Here's the craziest bit: I think you could write this story in such a way that the reader, and even Fluttershy herself, doesn't know which one it is.
2477919 It's been a while since I read sonic rain bigot, but what I remember of it was Rainbow dash accidentally insulting a douchey unicorn in Canterlot, the press hounding her about it, a conversation with celestia, and then rainbow putting them in their place at the end in a grand fashion. What was off putting to you about it?
2478815
Sorry, bookplayer, for derailing, but I'll briefly explain in the hopes it might clarify my thoughts on unintended messaging. (I do think this is an interesting example, and again, I greatly enjoyed several of Estee's other works. This isn't trying to call them out in any way.)
Basically, I think the story ends up with a bad message: 'the problem with racism is people playing the race card'. (that minorities use accusations of racism to silence or oppress others, while often being racist themselves). I disagree with this pretty strongly. Not in that I say it doesn't happen - of course it does - but I think isolated incidents don't change the fact that most racism both now and historically flows in pretty extensively recognizable directions, and to focus on the outliers means you're choosing to believe by default the people with power over the powerless.
Leaving aside the politics of that assertion, my point is that I see that message through how the story is constructed. I definitely don't think that's what Estee meant to get across. But a story that touches racism even in the very different pony world can't help but draw comparisons to real life. And I can't help but see one isolated incident as being emblematic of a broader message when that incident is all the story gives us to hold onto as a perspective. The largest part is just how it's resolved. As you say, Rainbow 'puts her in her place in an epic fashion' (wow, I'm super sensitive on this I know but that phrasing makes me wince so much), but... Everything in the story is constructed to be beneficial to Dash. The antagonist is a super awful strawman guilty of crimes, in fact she's secretly a bigot herself, Rainbow only completely accidentally uses a racial slur, etc etc. But as Twilight points out, it is an slur that's recognizable as being offensive, and Rainbow's apology? It consists of antagonizing the other pony until it's revealed that she's a bigot herself. Morality doesn't consist of... 'you're worse than me so it doesn't count'. Another apology happens offscreen in the brief epilogue, but the way the story is constructed, it doesn't hold any weight. It's absolutely secondary to the rush of Rainbow getting to show up the evil antagonist. And I can't find pleasure in what feels like a huge setup - not when I still have a creeping doubt of Rainbow being wrong, saying something that could hurt others, even inadvertently.
This is really partially me bringing my own baggage to the table, as I know this is not what many (even most?) people would think when reading the story. But I think there's fundamental aspects of the story that support, even lead to, that unfortunate implication, and that the story suffers for it - that if it had dealt with the topic in a more nuanced manner or with a less caricatured villain, it would have been stronger. Of course it's a very short story, and you could argue whether it's worth doing so. Maybe the point is be careful with tackling a huge issue in such a superficial way? But hey, if you're reading a blogpost like this or the rest of bookplayer's stuff, I assume you're be interested in looking past the surface of a fic, trying to find what works and what doesn't from a variety of perspectives.
2479003 ah, in hindsight, I can totally see hat you're talking about.
2477757
Ah! Okay, that makes more sense. It wasn't unambiguous, and if it were (ahem) something that had unfortunate implications itself, I didn't want to address that here.
Another example is the Villain-Thropist sort of trope -- someone is ruthless and vicious, then assuages their guilt by unloading a huge chunk of their fortune into charities. Does that make them bad? Is there really a way to measure these things? Can one say that an industry being, say, dominated by a single company via unfair business practices and consumer fraud somehow can be balanced against millions of starving third world citizens being fed? What if it's over time -- fortune built villainously from 25-30, charity work from 30-40?
With fiction, characters are frequently presented with having to pick the lesser of two evils (or greater of two goods, depending on the level of drama/dark/etc.) In real life, that's less common, so people don't see it as easily, I suspect. Most of the time, in real life, people couch moral decisions as not doing bad things. "I don't rob banks, I don't use drugs! I'm a good person!"
I would argue that makes one a neutral person, and there's nothing wrong with neutrality. But good? Good is volunteering at a soup kitchen. Good is giving even when it's not easy, and giving more when it gets easier, IMO. It's not just being innocent of murder and robbery.
Re: The concept of 'SJW', maybe? I don't really see it used much by people interested in social justice anyway, seems like. Most of the people I see using it are MRAs, and -- well, I'm sure you can guess what kind of opinion I have about MRAs.
Really, I would say that the issue here isn't really even a shipfic specific thing, it is just a general character development thing. The only real additional issue that shipping tends to bring up is if the story decides that someone needs to "be the boy" or "be the girl".
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My view of Rarity is that she is fully aware of the facade she puts up and that she enjoys playing the role of a proper lady and being a large ham. She drops it when it isn't useful to her anymore, though she is a bit of a method actress and thus can get "caught up" in a role (as she did in Simple Ways).
I don't think it is even really about being her "true self" so much as how she chooses to behave, as well as because she exaggerates traits she really does have in order to suit her persona, while some are simply pretense entirely. She really doesn't like getting dirty, but she pretends to be phobic of dirt because that is what fits her persona and it is "fun" for her. She likes to look nice, and she is embarrassed if she looks bad in public, but she can go out through town while all raggedy without having a psychological breakdown if she has to. On the other hand, her drama queening seems much too self-aware for it not to be an act, given she randomly seems to waver in and out of it, like when she starts "wallowing" in her room, and then stops to ponder it, or when she is eating ice cream and crying and then suddenly is all prim and proper. And then there's the drama couch, which is pure roleplaying on her part.
2477609
I just don't find it interesting.
They're so similar any plot that takes place, you can just switch them around and you'd have little to no consequence. What if Cheese wanted kids? It'd be very similar to if Pinkie wanted kids. (Which I imagine she would regardless.)
Whereas in RainbowPie, Rainbow Dash might have issues feeling confident enough to look after a kid. Or in RariPie, Rarity might have different ideas of how to raise a child, like Book says.
2479267
Woah there, if you're bringing up what book says you might want to take a glance at the next sentence:
So, even if they were literally clones of each other, they could still have to deal with, say, moving in next door to ponies who get upset with loud parties, or Pinkie's family disapproving of the match-- both situations that would be funnier because they're so similar.
But they also aren't clones. This is where analysis comes in. I'm sure Scoots2 has thought about this more, but right off the top of my head there are two big differences between Cheese and Pinkie: First, Cheese is nomadic, and seems to have trouble forming attachments to other ponies, considering how long he's been nomadic (since childhood.) And second, his first instinct is to lie to earn more respect from his idol. This implies that while he might come across as being exactly like Pinkie, there's some totally different stuff at work there.
Sometimes reading deeply into things raises a lot of interesting possibilities.
2479466
2479267 Yes, I think you covered it very well, bookplayer. He also appears to be an introvert. Even at the birthaversary, you see him choosing to wind down by quietly munching a cupcake by himself. He's got some big theatrical facades that Pinkie doesn't have, including the voice differences (the deep voice of his introduction and even calling them "young fillies," despite the fact that he's apparently the same age, vs. what I think is his "real" voice (the much higher and younger-sounding "If you wanna be the life of the party,") while with Pinkie, what you see is largely what you get. We don't know exactly how Pinkie wound up in Ponyville, but it's extremely unlikely that she ran away from home. Cheese did, which also suggests an entirely different relationship with his parents.
We all extend our understanding of these characters based on the clues we're given, but I've always found the "they're exactly the same" argument based on a superficial understanding of the characters, not to mention that CheesePie has a built-in conflict that's not based on "changing each other." Is it awful to quote myself?
(That's from Good Morning, Beautiful, if anyone's curious.)
Where you get boring stories is when writers skate past these rather interesting issues, especially home and family. Applejack leaves her farm, or Rainbow leaves off living among her beloved clouds, without much of a second thought, when Applejack's demonstrated how bone-deep her love for her farm and family go. I have a hard time believing in a Braeburn who leaves Aaaappleloosa without a pang.
Anyway, yeah--character analysis and character growth--always interesting, and so is taking outside obstacles seriously.
2479466
I'm not saying they're exact clones of each other, they're not, but they're still very similar to the point where them being in a romantic relationship comes off as a bit boring. Pinkie ships are fun because of the huge contrast between Pinkie and whoever she's dating.
That said, Pinkie and Cheese would make excellent best friends. They would understand each other the best in the world and could probably talk topics together that they couldn't do with anypony else.
Shipping's nice and all, but there's a lot to be said for very strong friendships. Come to think of it, why don't we see more analysis of that? And by strong friendship, I don't mean what's shown in the show, typically. It's something above a standard friendship but occupies a different branch in the relationship tree than romance.
2479551
Having trouble dealing with your inner emotions doesn't necessarily mean you're an introvert. In fact, introvert and extrovert and usually way too vague terms to describe people with. You can have quiet extroverts and loud introverts, sometimes.
That simply seemed like him appreciating a job well done. I can see Pinkie doing a similar thing at a party after she's mingled with all the guests, before jumping right back in.
I don't think I especially need to list any examples where Pinkie has been theatrical, although I may be missing your point slightly.
Not necessarily. Pinkie's been shown several times to be smarter than she lets on and even subtle.
Furthermore, she outright lies to her friends when she's upset to save them upsetting themselves (even though she's terrible at hiding it). That doesn't mean she's an introvert, like you claim Cheese is, it just means she's bad at dealing with internal conflict. Something Cheese could share.
2479805 So, in other words, you have already decided that you think it's boring, and you're going to dismiss anything suggesting otherwise.
2479814
Now that's not fair. Just because I haven't decided to read as deeply into Cheese the way you have, doesn't mean my opinion shouldn't be dismissed either.
For the record, I'd love to read a good fic where they're best buds. Proper bros doing awesome stuff together.
But for romance, I don't see the wealth of directions they could take when compared to many other ships.
2479805
You'll have to forgive me for not buying it, but the words you're saying are ones I've heard about AppleDash a million times, and yet I and many other people keep writing AppleDash fics that we, at least, like to think aren't boring.
Friendshipping? Well I don't do it because it overlaps with romance a lot. Other people don't do it because they don't write 2000 words blogs posts analyzing relationships in the show.
There are fics out there, of course. I think most of the shipping groups have a Friendshipping folder for stories that focus on their pairing as friends, rather than lovers.
2479247
It is, but it does tend to come up in those ships under the banner of character growth. Not as often as one would think based on how much people argue that it would happen, of course. I sometimes get the feeling that the character growth thing with opposites attract ships is like a commercial promising me that Bowl-o-Sugar Cereal is part of a balanced breakfast-- a way to get people off their backs about the ship being unhealthy even though they fully intend to just go back to writing it as two totally different ponies who put up with each other because
reasonslove. The funny thing is I feel like that's healthier, if only slightly.The other place in shipping it's common, and even creepier, is in straight shipping. Of course, some of the fics there walk the line between unfortunate implications and unfortunate narrative.
2479907
Huge difference between AppleDash and CheesePie, though. Applejack and Rainbow Dash may share the same competitive edge, and tomboyish tendencies, but that's where the similarities end. They're more different than they are similar, really. And that's what makes AppleDash fun.
2479946
Yes, but we also know way more about AJ and Dash than we do about Cheese. If your only introduction to them was Fall Weather Friends, they'd look very much like Pinkie and Cheese.
That's where extrapolating from the ways they're different there comes in.
2479956
Well, it's not like that Applejack was pulling off Sonic Rainbooms in that episode.
But our first glimpse of cheese, we see him possessing a 'Cheese Sense'. That's remarkably similar to Pinkie sense. Plus that whole episode was about Pinkie feeling replaced, since Cheese was so similar he could fill in her role with ease.
2479992 It isn't, actually. It only applies to parties, not to everything. Plus, if you and I have a similar skillset and apply for the same job, that does not make me you. And Cheese is not applying for Pinkie's job. The ONLY pony who thinks that is Pinkie. She's the one who forces it into a "who's the best" competition. Rainbow Dash says Cheese can't replace her. Cheese says he doesn't WANT to replace her.
Can he really "fill her role with ease?" Doubt it. Pinkie can remember every single Pony in Ponyville, note when the population goes up by one, and knows everypony's birthday. Cheese actively prefers the company of his rubber chicken.
Except that she never does.
But the problem is that you admit you don't know the episode as well as I do, and you began this with:
--which makes everything you say after that suspect, and also really insulting to me as a CheesePie writer, because basically you're saying, "your fics suck, without my having read them; the relationship's boring and your characters are out of character." And THAT is what is flustering my jimbobs. You walk that back and I can totally accept that you don't like the ship because of reasons.
2485915
Again, I'm saying they're so similar that it'd make for a, in my mind, boring ship. I don't think they're exact clones but they share a lot of the same tropes and mannerisms.
We don't know this, though. Maybe Cheese does have a good memory like Pinkie does. Furthermore...
This is questionable. In his songs, Cheese talks about being a 'super duper party pony' and being the 'life of the party'. Even in his confession song, he distinctly sings 'and all will know my name'.
He started out shy, sure, but know his grown up in much more of an extrovert pony now. Perhaps he's developed a bit of an ego from his adventures in partying? And coming back to Ponyville humbled him a little, since he saw Pinkie Pie again?
We just don't know. He only appeared in one episode. Which brings me to...
That's what you're interpreting from my words. I'm not sure why you're so defensive for the ship, but that's how bronies go, I suppose. See, this quote I said:
You do realise this doesn't mean I think you're writing is bad, surely?
If a ship seems unbelievable to me... that's my problem. Not yours. I cannot see them making a pairing so vibrant and colorful as ships as RariPie or TwiPie. That's my opinion.
If I disliked sci-fi because I found it unbelievable, would that mean I would think every sci-fi film in existence was bad? No, because they could potentially have elements that were very good. Like characters, camera work... etc. But since sci-fi isn't my interest, that's a bit of a turn off.
Same thing with CheesePie. I'm sure you can write well. But that ship just doesn't interest me. To me, Cheese was a fun guest character with the potential to become a total bro for Pinkie. I didn't hear romantic bells ringing. But some people thought differently. And that's fine. Ship away. But I simply do not care for it.
As I said earlier, Pinkie ships to me are about contrast. CheesePie would offer the least contrast of any Pinkie ship, even less so than RainbowPie.
2485985
Jake, step back here. Let's look at where you quoted yourself again:
Scoots2 wrote CheesePie stories. So what you are, in fact, saying is either:
Nothing of consequence happened in the stories she wrote.
Or
She must have drastically changed one of the characters.
That doesn't sound like something someone would take offense to? What if I said:
"At least that story isn't about Pinkie. Those are either random and pointless, or you have to drastically change her character."
...so, which are your stories, Jake?
No one is saying that you have to read CheesePie, or like it, or even think that, if they were real people, they would make a good couple. But dismissing every CheesePie story as inherently boring is insulting to CheesePie writers.
2485985 I'm not a "bro," so I don't care for being called a brony, but basically, you simply said you don't like the ship because of reasons, so that's fine.
And actually, we do have a fundamental difference about what we like. I don't particularly like "opposites attract" or extreme clashes of personality. To be honest, I find it sort of irritating. To me, what might make TwiPie interesting is the similarity of having different forms of intelligence, not "woo, they're so different." It's the same ship, but a different stance. I prefer other types of conflict: some of the kinds bookplayer mentioned. There are so many other potential challenges for a couple that spicing it up with drastically different personalities doesn't feel necessary.
I actually recently had a lot of fun with the "they're too similar" thing, in which Cheese had to talk his way into the ER without being a relative or really connected to Pinkie in any way. And the excuse he used was, "I'm her brother. See? Same hair and everything."
There actually ARE plenty of Cheese Sandwich and Pinkie Pie friendshipping fics, but the idea that you CAN'T write a good romance fic about them without writing one out of character: yeah, actually, you can.
2486080
I admit when worded that way, it does sound more offensive. So for that, I will apologise. For the words I typed and for wandering blindly into an argument. I keep doing that and I can't remember the last debate or so that I actually 'won'. Makes me wonder why I keep doing it.
That said:
I don't think I'd mind too much, aside from getting minorly irritated and then forgetting the whole charade minutes later.
Yes, I do delver deeper into Pinkie Pie than most. That's my niche, I guess, these days. But I don't really expect everyone to enjoy it. You're more of an Applejack fan, which is good too. I'm not going to expect you suddenly develop an obsession for Ponk like I do.
2486120
While I said Pinkie ships to me are about contrasts, that doesn't necessarily mean complete opposites attract. I like my ships to have at least one thing in common, which is typically what starts the bond (but not always, as the case with TwiPie; I reckon that starts more with Pinkie admiring Twilight's smarts and Twilight just enjoying the company Pinkie brings). The contrasts, and how they deal with them, are what make it interesting and spicy.