Do I Write About Spike Too Much? · 3:47am Oct 23rd, 2013
Dear Loyal Watchers, Interested Visitors, and Confused Passersby:
Thirteen years ago I was in the middle of my internship in an elementary school in a first-ring suburb of a major American Rust-Belt city.
It was a fairly middling school, not poor, but not affluent. It was in the older part of the suburb, and was made up by combining the district's original grammar school and the original middle school, creating an odd dichotomy of an elementary school with two gyms, two auditoriums, and two cafeterias.
It was my lunch break, and as this was during my week of solo-teaching I was in the room gathering materials for the afternoon. That is to say, I was reading the newest Harry Potter book and wiling away the hour.
I looked up from Juvenile Protagonist and the Misplaced McGuffin to find a boy standing in the room. This was a second-grade classroom, and it was no surprise that one had come up from the Cafeteria-of-the-Day, I assumed, to fetch a missing lunchbox.
A single look went across his face, and at once I knew that this was not the topic at hand.
"Hey, ummm, Mr. [T.D.], is there someplace where I can stay after school until my soccer practice starts?" he asked.
I forget his name, after all of these years, but I remember it being traditional, and starting with one of those letters that loop forward in the cursive I had been teaching them. It was Brian, or Byron, or Ryan... something of that nature.
"That's something that you needed to talk to you mom about before you come to school on soccer days," I said, or something very much like it. "Why? Do you think that your mother won't be home today when you get off the bus? Did you forget to bring me a note or something?"
"N-no," he said. "No, it's that...
He began to break down, jumping in place, his face creasing.
"Mom's new boyfriend is there, and he might hurt me again, and if I'm too hurt I can't play soccer and I really, really wanna play soccer b-because..."
We aren't suppose to hug the kids. We're taught that we're only supposed to take offered hugs, and that we're supposed to do it in a side-by-side, one armed, politically-correct, lawsuit-avoiding way.
But, I'm pretty sure that, had I not given him a hug at that moment, that my soul would have been torn out of my body and sent to very deepest reaches of Hell.
The "real" teacher was summoned, the principal too, as well as the school counselor. The afternoon went on, and a few weeks later I was off to my next assignment in the district's middle school. I always wonder what became of that boy... and where the "boyfriend" ended up. I have a few choice locations.
The very worst part, of course, is that this would not be the last time in my career where I would have to deal with such an issue.
The reason that I feel the need to bring up this part of my professional life (what little remains of it, considering how my position has been reduced more and more each year) is because I feel the need to admit that my bias has always been towards recognizing kids and their needs.
My fear is, am I starting to dwell more upon my personal interpretation, and the way I view a vulnerable child, than I am the series' canon?
Over this last weekend and the beginning of this week, I have had a number of conversations with people in regard to my latest story, Immature.
The crux of the conversation has been that I got characterizations wrong. That is deeply disturbing to me, as I've said before that canon characterization is what makes fan fiction... well, fan fiction. Without it, these are just original fictions wrapped in pony drag. I believe that I had been doing well in doing just that. One of these issues was easily "fixed" (to an extent), namely Twilight's, and I sat up until 3 a.m. on the night of the story's first release doing so.
The second was not, as it is core to my understanding of who the character is.
Or, I worry, who I think I had convinced myself the character is.
That character, of course, is Spike.
Let's get another thing out of the way, first. There's just as many interpretations of Spike's character as there are of any character in the series, in the canon, and in the fanon. Each person comes into their understanding of these characters from their own place, and no fanon belief can be held up as "proof" of anything... not yours, not his, and not mine.
Spike's relationship to Twilight? Some say motherly. Others say sibling. Many say best friend. I've never viewed it as that simple, and I've trotted out my "Whatever they are to one another, he's her little one and she's his big one mantra" over and over whenever the topic has been broached.
Does Spike like to work? Has he been breed for that purpose, like a domesticated animal? Is he happy to work, viewing it as a job? Is it an actual job, one the child was assigned, only co-incidentally ending up with the unicorn who hatched him? Once again, fanon. Nobody is right, and nobody is wrong. I've always felt that the little groans he makes and sighs that escape him show that he doesn't like working per se... but that he likes working for Twilight because it makes him useful to her, shows that they are a team. Once again, my fanon, based on my understanding of canon.
Who raised Spike? Did Twilight? She seems awful young at the time. Was it Celestia, as Word of God says? Well, the canon says no, as Twilight says that he was "given to her as an egg", and Celestia hasn't said two words to him in the series. I've always seen it as a mix... I believe he was raised in Canterlot, but it was the work of many hooves, but that Celestia and Twilight were involved. Neither a little filly nor a ruler of a nation have the time, but together with say, a nursery, perhaps? Spike doesn't have anyone he calls "Mommy", or I can only hope that we'd have met her by now.
And my story in which I attempt to describe who he might call "Daddy" is one of the reasons why we are having this conversation.
"So, T.D., why are you taking the time to drop this fanon on us? What's the point?" you're asking, and well within your rights and privilege to do so.
The reason that I'm doing so is because I'm asking you a very, very, very important question: Have I been wrong in my portrayal of Spike? Have I written him so much now that I've begun to go too far in exploring who he is?
Have I failed to capture him, and have instead been portraying a child that I want the fandom to see?
In Immature, I thought that I had made a good point when I reminded others that Twilight has not always been kind to Spike. We can't pretend that she has never hit him, that she has not kicked him so hard that he bounced when he hit the wall, or that she has yelled at him. Yes, I understand that the "rule of funny" was in effect, but for someone like me, who is a State Mandated Reporter of Child Abuse, these didn't exactly bring forth a chuckle. If we had seen Rarity do these things to Sweetie Belle, or Big Mac to Apple Bloom, would they still have been "funny?"
My mistake, one that I openly admit to, and which I sat up until 3 a.m. attempting to repair, is that I went too far with Twilight's portrayal, was that I showed her being cruel. That was wrong of me, and I freely and openly apologize for that. While I won't try to hide that she did these things, I can't deny that she did not do them out of maliciousness or to be sadistic. That has never been her canon portrayal, ever, and in my attempt to get the audience to sympathize with a child's plight I went too far.
I am sorry. I can only apologize.
The last thing that I wish to say on the matter is that, while Twilight has been on the receiving end of some of Spike's snark, and while she too has been hurt by some of his actions, his were never intentional, only accidental.
Yes, Twilight has begun to treat him better over the last few months. Apart from ignoring him at a crucial moment in their relationship in season three, and forgetting to include him in her "I love you" statement at the end of the season, they are getting closer and closer to a relationship with real value. It is funny to think that the best thing about Equestria Girls was what many feared to be the worst... Spike the Dog. "I'm glad you came with me, Spike." Damn straight you are, Your Highness!
We have seen Twilight tuck him in at night. We have seen Twilight say that she "have to give my baby dragon a bath!" We have seen her hold him, and hug him (even if it's only ever been crappy-poltically correct half-hugs). When she is tender with him, when she acts like the guardian whose bed he sleeps by at night, then you already know what that does to me. As far as your T.D. is concerned, the only thing that remains missing is her wrapping him in a full hug and saying "I love you", a galling omission that still grates at me.
Of these two portrayals of Twilight, you all know which I prefer:
T.D.'s reposts "The Royal We" that he commissioned from Famosity at BronyCon... for the third time...
My worry is that I may have let my understanding of Spike as a kid outweigh his canon portrayal.
My worry is that, as I've tried to get people to consider the ramifications on a little boy who is without a traditional family, and who, everything else considered, sleeps close by, spends his day with, and makes breakfast for a young mare who is his guardian, that I've lost sight of other aspects of his personality.
I was trained to look for "vulnerable" children. Hiding bruises, not looking teachers in the face, listlessness, making trips to the bathroom over and over, unexplained cuts... I've spent more than a decade watching for these signs every day.
When Spike is called out on his lie, he grabs his tail, and his voice goes soft. When the most important pony in his life is being interrogated by her teacher, he slinks around the corner, peering on with worry. He calls "Twilight! Your turn!" looking for her praise. In looking at him at his most vulnerable moments, have I begun losing sight of him when he's at his strongest? When he's dancing, when he's cracking jokes? Have I become unballanced in my view of the child?
Spike has shown himself to be in the Piaget's Formal Operational Stage of Childhood Cognitive Development. His ability to define his own code of ethics, The Noble Dragon Code, was one of the redeeming qualities of an episode I'd rather just forget.
"That's great, T.D." they ask, "but do you have to show him as being so damned mature?
"Shoot," answers Crow-face.
In both Every Little Bit and Immature, have I crossed a boundary from where my exploration of the child's psyche has moved beyond what is believable? Is Spike talking about his imaginary dad unbelievable? Was it incompressible that Spike would give Twilight a chance to be happy at his own expense?
In short, have I spent so much time looking at Spike through the eyes of a professional eductor (or, semi-pro in my pay bracket) and not enough time looking at him as, say... a guy who is watching a cartoon character?!
Have I wrote about Spike so much... that I'm no longer writing about Spike?
I have the next chapter of Zenith sitting here in front of me. It's not done, and I've been staring at the keyboard all weekend, watching the Like/Dislike ratio falling through the 6's:1 to the 5:1's... abysmal by my standards. The only thing I can think of is "What if I'm doing that to him here, in what I wanted to be his great adventure?"
I had wanted to participate in Oneshotober. I had an idea lined up for this .gif, a 5,000 word story (as if anything I ever write ends up being as long as I plan it to be) about the longest three seconds in Spike's life:
Now, I'm a little scared to try. Now I wonder if I've reached the limit of being able to accurately portray his inner thoughts, concerns, drives, and motives without making him "too mature". Or, worse yet, trying to keep him from sounding "too mature" and just ending up making him sound like a blithering idiot.
I'm thinking that by this time tomorrow I'll have taken Immature down for revision. I don't think it will be going back up anytime soon. I'm not looking forward to being called a "Comment Deleter!", but that's the ramification of deleting all of the chapters, I'm told. I can only hope that the story looks more "realistic" when it goes back up.
Should I take a break from writing Spike fics? Should I step back and wait until I've got my head clear on who the boy is, again? Has my interpretation of his canon personality been wrong?
I hope to figure these things out. You, my readers, many who have called me "your favorite Spike writer", deserve better from me.
Twilight's "great little guy" deserves better from me, too.
Stay Awesome,
-T.D.
Spike is heavily underrated in this fandom. It would be nice for him to get more stories. So no.
Can never have enough of best poneh
Too much Spike? You don't write enough
But do whatever you feel like doing. We like your stuff because of what you write
And don't worry. You're doing great in your writing of Spike!
I think the way you've been playing Spike is impressive.
I mean, you actually take the time to give him character. Outside the fan bases 'hate' for him, you make him cool.
I'd think the fact that you use a number of real life experiences to make him, well, him, is downright awesome.
If you feel the need to step back and write someone (or pony) else, then, by all means, do so. No sense to get stuck in a rut, right? Really, though, as long as you keep writing, then whatever you do is up to you.
But don't change how you do Spike. You do him too damn good.
~Skeeter The Lurker
Why would you take down Immature? It seems fairly in character to me, but I may just have a different view of the character then most.
As for if you write about him too much, the answer is no. I do not know a single author in the fandom who writes Spike as well as you do from my perspective, this may just be personal bias, but I would rather you keep doing what you are doing.
I cannot honestly say if you did him wrong, yes both he and Twilight overreacted but otherwise I have real opinion. In my observations of the fandom Spike isn't written all that much, and he is seem to be treated more like a piece of furniture as opposed to a sapient being. I have not seen any "Spikebuse" though.
You choose to write for Spike because he is a character that you like and wish to tell his story, the same reason I concentrate on Celestia despite her being very low on the popularity poll.
Write him right, and write him well. Though to be honest, a Spike/Celestia bonding fic wouldn't go amiss.
do what you wish... I for one dislike him, but not out right hatred. I cannot say WHY I do, I just don't... maybe it's his attitude? I don't rightly know
I don't think you should stop writing about him.
However, I think that you did make him a bit too saintly in "Immature". Personally, I would not take the story down if it was my story. I would just take it as a lesson and apply it to a similar story down the road. You're free to do what you will, of course!
But honestly, the problem in that story was that you made Spike a bit too mature and too understanding to handle something like that. I don't think any child/teenager/young adult can watch someone else being with the one they love without being torn up about it. I really, honestly can't. If you had ended the story after the basement scene, I would have almost no criticism for you. The scene with Rarity is honestly the one that made me go "ehhh, but..."
But I digress. You love Spike, and I love that about your writing. He needs more appreciation, both in the show and fanfiction. So, short answer--no, you shouldn't stop writing about Spike. Yes, you had some errors with "Immature," but nothing completely unfixable.
I think... you treat him better than he's treated in the show. Rule of funny or not, he's had a metaphorical ton of the proverbial horse apples dumped on him. He gets some good moments, but they're far outweighed by 'Just for Sidekicks'.
I don't think you write too much Spike. But sometimes I think you write him better than in the show. Also,
Although technically true... it's more the egg was rolled out as part of the test for the School of Gifted Unicorns. ;)
You know, I thought some of these same things about Rarity, who has been my subject of choice in this fandom. I've written some 40 stories on Cynewulf, and over half of them either involve her heavily or are about her, and my take was always... different.
Of course, my subject matter was darker and romantic; my Rarity was older than the show, they all were having left their late adolescence behind, so it was excusable. But I wondered.
To be honest, I can't answer the question entirely because I'm not that up to date on your Spikefictions--Say sorry, I haven't read Immature yet--but I get it, man. You wrote a child because children were important and you were focused. I made Rarity into some kind of crazy lesbian warrior poet princess character who just happens to be slumming it out in the country (not litterally) because I'm obsessed with the idea of Nobilitas and what it looks like--I like the Aragorns, you know.
It's a challenge of the kind of stories we like to write, and it's not an easily answered question.
You know that Children can fluctuate from pole to pole--one minute they're like little sages, saying something far beyond their years that astounds you... and the next completely clueless about the reality they live in. I had that experience a lot working in daycare.
So I think perhaps as goes his maturity, there's leeway--and I think you know that, which is why it's such a difficult question. Where does that leeway end? Where does the grace of childhood halt its advance? Hell, I'm not sure, really.
But... may I say something? Please, don't take it down. If you must, do so. If your heart tells you so, and your mind wills it deep down, do it. But know that you don't have to. We make mistakes. Our stories our a monument more lasting than bronze (That's Horace for you) and not just to our successes but to our failures. I only erased the dismal failures on this account (two stories) because I couldn't get them off the top spots on the sidebar when people looked at my stories. I keep my Fallout Fic up, as well as the fics that flopped and are just.... beyond wrong and have so many holes and philosophical quandries because the world should know that I was someone who failed. It's important.
So do what you must.
Godspeed, TD.
Personally, I see Spike as a child that is very mature in several aspects, but nevertheless a child in others. In canon we see a gamma of levels of understanding from him. From catching on to subtle hints, to point-blank being self-centered and ignoring duty for a couple of gems.
Therefore, I see Spike as someone who can have a deep conversation, is capable of reasoning and understanding other's feelings, but he's not going to be as mature as an adult would be. To me, when he runs away and shuts himself in the closet, that moment was pure Spike. He's showing his fear and his insecurity, as well as his child-like rebelliousness when his more 'mature' side fails to provide him with a way to deal with things.
I don't know if Twilight would've played a game to tell him the secret, that would have been my only gripe with Immature. But her being jealous? Acting up, as a mostly-socially-inept pony would? She hadn't been in that situation before, where she had finally realized that she was in love. I can see that.
Spike... he had to deal with something that Sombra's door illustrated just fine: His fear of being obsolete or useless or unloved by/for Twilight. His reactions felt natural to me, so no, I don't think you're going /that/ far away from canon.
Had he not shown that weakness, those moments of childish desperation and denial? Then I would've had issues with his portrayal.
It's hard to say. Spike's canon characterization can change from episode to episode just because of the change in writers, but even taking that into account, his character is very ambiguous. Physically he's still a child, but his mental age can be in two different age groups in the same episode. Maybe they did it on purpose so he could be more flexible in their writing, but it leaves holes in the story. Why wasn't he at Twilight's birthday? Why didn't she mention him in her speech?
I will agree that the "slapstick" moments seem a bit unfair on him, especially the off-screen drowning and constant collisions with stationary objects. That could be an evolving audience more than a failing on their part. Things that would have been written off as cartoon violence are coming under the microscope because of the unfortunate implications attached to them. Peanuts certainly couldn't exist today; the cast would be in therapy and medicated to the hilt.
I like the way you write him, and I certainly believe he needs more exposure, but there are some odd moments--the invisible father figure definitely being one. His motives are realistic, but his actions straddling a fine line between in character and out of character.
I think Immature's failing is that it goes by too quickly; within a matter of hours he's had his heart tossed into a blender, accepted that his three-year crush is impossible, and moved on. Canon Spike would take a *lot* longer to forgive Twilight for the stunts she pulled--and I don't think Rarity would let Twilight off lightly for screwing with him. She wouldn't just be able to explain herself and get away with it.
Whether you rewrite it or leave it as-is, I hope you do keep Immature up. Few Rarilight stories actually confront Spike's feelings head-on; they either ignore it or handwave it by having him lose interest prior to the events of the story. That's a significant gap that needs to be addressed.
Part of fanfics is taking characters to places they wouldnt normally go. I really liked Immature, and I know it wasnt your usual interpretation of the characters. And thats allright. Fanfics are about 'what if?' What if Twilight was cruel to Spike because she was blinded by infatuation for Rarity? What if Spike was feeling particularly clear-headed that day? You explored that idea very well I thought.
Just as no two people are the same, no individual is the same day to day. Why should characters be any different?
Personally I can never get enough of the Twilight / Spike relationship from you. It really is a pretty unique relationship. Not quite equals, not quite parental. Some amazing hybrid of family and friends. Closest Ive seen in any other fiction is a Wizard and Familiar, and even that is not quite right.
I look forward to reading more from you, especially about Spike
1445010 He needs more stories and more recognition.
1445099
THIS! A thousand times THIS!
Characterization may be the heart of fan fiction, but artistry remains the soul of storytelling. Your Spike will never be the same Spike from the show (unless you become one of their writers, which would be awesome,
), but in a sense he shouldn't be. The single greatest thing about fan fiction is that every writer is unique, and we get to see the characters we know and love seen through many different lenses.
If you feel that your interpretation of a character is in need of re-evaluation that's entirely up to you, but so long as you stay true to your own vision of what Spike is, I for one will never complain,
Though I didn't find the time to read all of your fics, I am well aware of how competent you are as a writer. I admit that Immature did fall flat for me (and quite a lot of people), but you can't start doubting yourself after one stumble.
Yes, Twilight was a bitch.
Yes, Spike was an awkward mixture of maturity and immaturity.
Yes, the Rarity scene was unnecessary and her feelings for Twilight were too convenient.
But I give you an epic brofist for taking Spike's feelings into consideration in a Rarity Shipfic that doesn't involve Sparity. I can count in one hand how many Rariships I've read where the author actually bother to do that. Immature was a small bump on your road, but you still have a lot of credit with me.
Now about Spike's personality... I've read Zenith and, so far, there isn't a single thing wrong about him.
He doesn't sound too mature.
His anger, despair and unwavering devotion to the mare that means the most to him are fucking brilliant.
Spike is the butt of all jokes in the show, so having him rage against heavens for himself or his loved one(s) is delightful to read, even if you do distort his canon personality somewhat.
So here's my piece of advice:
Don't. Fucking. Stop. You're still awesome!
Besides, there isn't such a thing as "too much Spike"
Eh, I think it is important to remember that the show is rather silly, so they take spills and bump into each other and clock each other and whatever in ways that real people don't, but likewise they bounce back up after being charred by teleportation and whatnot.
Anyway, as far as it goes... eh. Spike's characterization has been off in a few episodes, but most of the time he has a fairly consistent personality when he is not the primary focus of the episode. I think he is pretty mature for his age (whatever his age is) and I don't know what the deal with his family is (is Celestia his mom? Is Twilight? Or does he not have one?), so I think they're reasonable areas for exploration.
That being said, I don't think that Spike would think that Twilight was punishing him by saying she liked Rarity. That felt out of character.
Nah, you're good so far.
I am a big Spike lover, nothing can be said about it, and what you have said right here brings a whole new light to my writing. I have not gone far enough in my portrait of Spike. Going through your story, the facts you put about Spike, about Twilight it brought to my eyes something I had missed. Spike is very mature. "Have I gone too far in portraying Spike?" I don't think you've gone far enough. It is easy to miss really but you just put it plain as day for everypony here. Spike doesn't have a specific pony to call a mother, nor anypony to call a father. What that means? Spike had to define himself very early on. He did not have the luxury of running to mommy to tell how his day was, to cry into her shoulder when his day was tough, to look to as a source of security and love. He had Twilight, he had Celestia, and many other ponies in his life. An inescapable fact that none of them were his actual family. adoptive, pony, completely and irrevocably different from him in every way.
You are a teacher, of sorts, so you have a look at a unique perspective, just as you said, of Spike as his weakest self. You have presented that vulnerability time and time again but you have shown that he has the maturity to deal with it. Is there such a thing as too mature? No, never. Spike is a child, young. Is he mature for his age? That's up for you to decide. Personally I'm surprised more people don't write Spike this way, DWhay sorta got it in unfortunate side effect, he cares the world for Twilight. Going above and beyond to please her. Why? Again this is for you to interpret, it does not change the fact that he does. Would he sacrifice something he loves so that she could be happy? In a heart beat. How he acts about it is open to the farthest interpretation available.
To finish yes you may portrait Spike as weak, almost pitiably weak, but isn't that fine? Aren't all people who are weak usually come out the strongest? Well if they are strong enough to keep moving.Who knows that boy you ended up hugging could turn out to be someone great for all you know.
1445143 This.
That said, I may not have an unbiased opinion.
I don't believe there's anything wrong with your portrayal of Spike but if you feel that it's time for a break, take a break. Rest, reflect, and rejuvenate. Relaxation is optional but recommended.
The notion that your characterization of Spike strays too far from accepted canon may be because of the growth he has experienced in your story. In a way, your Spike has outgrown the Spike of the show but that's not due to bad writing; it may be because fanon Spike has gone through so much more, experienced so much more, reflected so much more in your stories than the cartoon has ever attempted to put him through in twenty two short minutes.
Sometimes, though, we could use a reminder that Spike is still a child, with fears of a child juxtaposed to worries of an adult. There's a story I'd like to bring up: remember Super Amazing Rocket Sled of Awesome? An earlier story but a great one regardless, just a silly little day for Spike and Twilight. Maybe instead of putting our favorite little guy through another round of the emotional gauntlet, a simple silly little day is what your Spike needs, just a reminder that he is, indeed, a child.
The child in your own personal experience was indeed mature in bringing his issues to you and explaining his problems but he was still a kid who really really wanted to play soccer. I might be pushing the accepted limits of a mere reader and commenter by saying this, but maybe it's time to let Spike, well, just play soccer and be a kid. And from what we readers have already experienced from your work, seeing a kid be a kid can be just as moving as watching a child grow.
Anyways, my two cents...
I could go into some long ramble about psychological implications... but there are few, if any. You simply have found a character that you understand on some level; one that you can write while expressing something inside of you.
Don't worry; you're not writing too much until the pages are blackened with ink.
You better not fucking take Immature down. The story wasn't perfect, the story had its flaws, but it damn well had its purpose too!
The idea of asking other people what they think of your characterization seems silly to me, but I guess the real writers never get good enough to lose that sense of self doubt, eh? I personally find that the issue with your Spike isn't that he is out of character, it is that you often put him into situations where he would never have anything like that in the canon.
To go slightly math nerd for a moment, you have a 'line' let us say, of Spike's behavior in canon. Most fanfiction takes place off of this 'line', different scenarios, different factors. In order to represent the character we need to extrapolate as much as we can about their personality. I think the issue you are having is that in your desire to place him in totally foreign situations, you aren't giving your readers a 'link'.
There is no precedence for anything like Zenith, so you are quite literally flying blind. There was never a time Spike had to stand up for his friends, so even Every Little Bit seemed like it was foreign territory. Perhaps what you need to do, what you should do, is return to the line. Try writing something for Spike a little closer to what is known and defined. Your Christmas story was a pretty good example of that.
It's like, canon Spike is a paved road, and whatever extrapolations we make are a stepping stone path going out to the side. You've been building on your own little 'side path' (your personal view of the character) so much, that now you turn back and you cannot even see where you 'diverged' from the canon anymore. The change in the way you portray Spike was slow, and to those who read all of your stories, we are taking the movement one stone at a time like you are. But if we go a long time without exposure to your view, and then we get something as heavy as Immature was, it can seem a bit far of a leap for the normal fan to make.
And after that whole speech, I have to give the cop out answer. We cannot answer this question for you. You've always done right by me. I, personally, think you should try to write that 'Three Second' one shot. It gives you a canon framing for it, and it is much the same reason my first story (and probably worst, but that isn't related) was 'Chains'. When your story has solid events inside of it, it gives you a set of boundaries. You cannot change dialogue, you cannot change what happens, all you can do is give it context. It is a good exercise for a writer, I find, because it helps you to hammer out what characters would be thinking to act in the way they are. I used it to talk about what Rarity was thinking to verbally assault Spike, you can use it to discuss Spike's actions, and the deeper feelings behind them.
At the end of it. You have to be happy with what you wrote. If other people are, bonus. But if you are not satisfied, that is when something needs to change, not before.
-Lumino
PS: Seriously, if you take down 'Immature' I will be very upset.
Leave Immaturity up.
Take pride it in and learn from it.
The way you write Spike is simply fantastic. I can think of no one that can equal it. Don't change
As a writer, it's impossible to not include your own take on a charecter. It's what makes writing in another universe sort of fun. Don't worry so much on that. It's going to happen no matter what you do.
In terms of fanfiction, writing quality is always hit & miss. Your writing, no matter the plot thread, is always a hit. So just keep the quality up and I'll keep reading.
I saw the discussion happening in the story comments and decided not to weigh in on it. I kinda regret that now.
On Spike in general, I think that you should write about whatever you want to. The last story was from Twilight's perspective, not Spike's, so perhaps that's something to consider. You don't always write the same Spike, either - To Change a Heart, Whelp Thingy Guy, Zenith, and Immature are all a bit different. The complexity of Spike and Twilight's relationship may be a common theme, but it's interesting and I like the way you explore it.
On Immature in particular ... I enjoyed reading it, but. I don't have problems with the way Twilight hurt Spike - they are both what we would consider good-hearted characters, but people make mistakes, and people don't have the luxury of counting on the mistakes of other people to balance those out. If I had to pick things I didn't like about it, it would be there was a lot of exposition on Twilight's part relative to the amount of action she took ... maybe? Also I wished the relationship between Twilight and Rarity was explored a little more (a topic you have ably demonstrated yourself handling in other stories!)
You're the best Spike writer around, dude.
In regards to your concern as portraying him as too mature or weak,
Zenith is a masterpiece. Your depiction of his initial weakness and vulnerability is completely realistic - he saw the most important person in his world nearly get killed, and was forced to cope with her comatose state through routines, talking to her, staying with her every day, etc., which is a completely realistic portrayal of the shock he still suffers from. He couldn't protect her despite his best efforts, Celestia isn't helping him, and there's very little he can do about it because he's just a kid, so it's completely understandable why he feels so downtrodden and helpless - anyone would in that situation.
But in addition to showing that weakness of his, you show his strength in his determination to help her, even if that means taking it all on by himself. He's not just crying over it and waiting for it all to get better, he's working to save her. And, with the hardships of the journey to come, you definitely don't need to worry about you portraying him as too weak/strong. You mix his emotions of fear and courage perfectly instead of having him be just one or the other, and that's why you're so fantastic at writing this awesome character. You've given him far more depth than the show can even touch on.
Same with Twilight, too.
I said it once, and I'll say it again, Spike is in the best hands there are.
1445148
This. Absolutely this.
Pardon my language, T.D., but you are the best damn Spike writer that I've seen. The vast majority of writers who don't outright forget about or ignore him leave him as a one-dimensional caricature.
In my opinion, you should leave Immature as it is. I hard a hard time reading it, yes. I didn't just tear up, I didn't experience "the feels," I was bawling. Because what Twilight did to him was brutal.
And his reaction was real, and visceral, and believable. The betrayal he felt reached out and ripped at my heart.
One of my favorite series on this site--no, one of my favorite series ever--is Airstream's Sunfall Chronicles. Incidentally, I feel he does a pretty good job with Spike's character in those stories. There are some pretty powerful scenes in those stories, especially late in Dusk's Dangerous Game. I was genuinely sad. I was devastated.
But not once did that story hit me as hard as Immature.
If you aren't happy with the story on its own merits, fine. But be damn sure that nobody else is making you question its worth.
Immature isn't a story that everyone will appreciate. But it's a story that deserved to be told.
First of all, a disclaimer: The only Spike fic of yours that I have read is Every Little Bit. Immature is sitting in my to-read list, but as stories tend to show up on there faster than I can read them, I haven't gotten to it yet. (And if you're going to take it down and rework the whole thing, I'll probably just wait until afterwards at this point.)
As you've pointed out, Spike's character is surprisingly undefined for such a nominally major character. Sure, we have gotten several good looks into who he is, but there are some glaring holes. What, exactly, is the nature of his relationship with Twilight? Where did his egg come from? What does he do when he's not with Twilight and her friends? Does he have responsibilities, or even a life, beyond being Twilight's assistant? All these questions are, I think, largely unanswered by canon and open to whatever fanon interpretation anyone prefers.
But the biggest question, in my opinion at least, is just how mature is Spike, especially mentally and emotionally?
Twilight often calls him a baby dragon (and compared to how long he could probably live, I don't think she's completely incorrect), but she also seems to have confidence in his ability to take care of himself (see "Just for Sidekicks," where she has not trouble leaving him alone to care for a bunch of animals for a day; "Look Before You Sleep," where he apparently goes off to Canterlot by himself for some royal business; and "Dragon Quest," where she lets him take a self-discovery journey across the country to be with a bunch of dragons (sure, she was watching the whole time, but it's still not something anypony would let Sweetie Bell, for example, do)).
His actions can fall anywhere from what you'd expect from a young child, to a teenager, to the point where he even acts like an adult sometimes.
The point I'm trying to make here is that there's not really a wrong answer. You can portray Spike as being as mature or immature as you want and still be in-character. Personally, I think of Spike as still being a young child for the most part, which is why I don't really like seeing him shipped with the adult characters, but I know others see him differently and I understand their point of view.
Moral of the story: Do what you feel is best. If you're uncertain, it never hurts to rewatch old episodes to get a better idea of who the characters really are.
You do yourself an injustice with these self doubts.
When I see a new story from you, my first thought is "new depth to Spike and Twilight's dynamic." You take the show's canon, and all the contradictions it puts forth, and mould it into something beautiful. You give this relationship more care and thought than canon.
What is Spike to the show? Little more than a message delivery service, and comic relief.
I applaud your characterisation of Spike and Twilight. I recommend your stories to my friends. During the "pre-release" of Immature I offered my thoughts, not because I felt any part of the story was "out-of-character," but because I thought you may have held things back to put the comedy first. (As much as I love the works of Douglas Adams, he would be the first to admit that his characters served the comedy, and not the other way around.)
I called Immature a gem. I stand by that judgement.
Has your experience and training affected your storytelling? No doubt. So few writers in this fandom have taken the snarky fax machine from the show, and given him real and genuine depth. That's why you were the first author I followed. That's why I look forward to every new story. That's why I've up voted every story of yours I've read, and favourited many of them.
I beg you, please don't take Immature down. Edit, if you feel you must. But don't delete. I beg you, please don't stop writing Spike fics.
None of the rest of us can hold a candle to yours.
Quickly scrolling through the comments, it seems like a lot of us are in agreement: you do a good job. Spike doesn't get a lot of love in the show, so we get a narrow view of him to start, and that alone gives you a lot of space to fill. As for his personality, he's been portrayed as a rather level headed and mature young dragon, but still seems to have this naivety to him. He is supposed to be a baby dragon, after all. He'll do silly things like eat tubs of icecream until he's sick to his stomach or impulsively follow Twi through a magical mirror after being warned that it could cause problems.
As for what it means to be a child, my personal favorite description comes from the YouTube channel called Extra Credits. They talk about gaming mechanics, and in an episode about the Walking Dead, they describe children as being "adults who happen to have a lot less experience." As far as we know, the only thing Spike really knows is Twilight. He's been her number one assistant and son-brother-best-friend-thing practically from his hatching. He has undoubtedly learned the ins and outs of Twilight in his, as I believe you estimated, decade with her. I have no doubt that he can handle Twi as he has shown several times in the show. This being said, he lives with Twilight Sparkle, the most bookish mare we know. We know that she spent little time on friendship until she went to Ponyville, so situations like the one in Immature (Which I regret to say makes up half of the work I've read from you right now.) never really came up. He has absolutely no experience with this. He's also a baby dragon, and advanced social problem solving and emotional control come with age and practice. In situations like the one you placed him in, he's running on absolutely no prior experience and trying to parse what he information he is getting through a developing set of skills. You've been in situations like this. You must know how nerve raking that can be, even if that moment came when you were old enough to have an advanced set of social skills. One of the things we sentient creatures tend to do is resort to emotion when reason fails us, and that's what I saw: a young dragon who's out of his element with no response to give but emotion.
I personally love what I've read of your interpretation of Spike, and I'd love to read more. If you are still worried, though, go back to the Spike episodes and rewatch them and see if the character on the screen is capable of being the young dragon you've created.
I look forward to reading more from you, T.D.
1445200
I honestly cannot bring myself to read it. I want to I've sped read it, hate doing that, but honestly I feel like if I actually read it. If I place myself withing the story... Well it could make the comment I just made look shallow by comparison. Twilight betrays Spike. That it's that is the part the refuses to leave my head when I look at that story. I want to so bad!! Like a thirst! But... Someone very close to me had been there, betrayed by the one they cared about most, and I was the one that had to pick up the pieces.
Tell me is it as bad as everyone makes it out to be?
1445200
I have to stop here because if I start gushing about Zenith we will literally be here all night while I try to distill my feelings into mere words.
But just... don't stop. The way you write these characters is uniquely you, and I wouldn't want you to write any other way. Evolve, adapt, assimilate new ideas, yes. But always, always remember that we read your stories because we love them, and we love you, and we always will. You give us these brilliant works of art and in return, we lift you up. Sometimes, we falter. Our arms tire. Our legs ache.
But even then, we remain. If I cannot hold you up with my arms, you may stand on my shoulders. If I cannot stand any longer, I will kneel until I can.
Ever, we remain, your readers.
1445207
First, I'd like to apologize because--due to the fact that I talk about two stories in my comment--I'm not sure exactly what you mean. If you're talking about Dusk's Dangerous Game, know that Twilight does not betray Spike.
I think, however, that you are more likely referring to Immature. That would make sense, since it's what we're talking about. (I am a bit tired, and tend to comment in a more... stream of consciousness fashion.)
Immature, in my opinion, doesn't just talk about the betrayal. It deals with it. If that makes sense. It's two people acknowledging that yes, this happened, and it hurt you, and I was selfish. It's two people figuring out how that changes their relationship--if they will allow it to change their relationship. It's two people working through their issues, and coming out as, if not better, then at least more experienced people on the other side.
It's a story about one person who hurt another, and how they can love each other anyway.
It's a story about love, and honesty, and always moving forward into the future.
It is beautiful and heart-wrenching and bittersweet.
And maybe not everybody can read it. But everybody who can, absolutely should.
And no matter how much it hurts, you have to keep moving forward, until the end.
Because the only way to get past the pain is to soldier on.
Of course. Just as I start getting into my first attempt ever at writing for Spike and exploring the depth of his relationship with the Mane 6, you have an existential crisis over him.
I was gonna make you proud of me, dammit.
Sir, if that's the reason your characterization is fluxxed, you have my respect. Sure, it may have caused a characterization error, (haven't read Immature yet, but a 'cruel' Twilight is certainly a no-no with me) but road to hell, good intentions, ya'know?
I'll try to read Immature before I go to bed and throw my opinion even further into the mix. I have a feeling you'll figure it out before I manage a relevant comment though.
Okay, I haven't read Immature yet, so I can't comment on it. But personally, I love the way you write Spike. You have your own interpretation of him, yes, but that, as much as straight characterization, also makes fanfiction what it is. Besides, your interpretation never feels false or overwhelms Spike's character. If anything, it deepens it. It never doesn't feel like Spike, if that makes sense. So if poor characterization is your fear, you have nothing to worry about, in my opinion. As far as I'm concerned, your characterization is some of the best in pony fanfiction.
Now, on the matter of taking a break from Spike, it's up to you. It you want to, or feel that you need to, then maybe you should. Writing fanfiction is all about having your head in the game, psychologically. But I think I speak for most of your readers when I say I think you're doing fine as is (even if this most recent story was or wasn't up to par (again, I haven't read it, so I don't know)).
Also, don't you dare change Zenith. It's wonderful as it is.
I've not read Immature but your portrayal of him is eerily accurate to me, ( Every little bit, brilliant with only minor and believable addition to his very accurately written character ) your tweaking with his character in Zenith after events are thorough and very believable.
I think Spike views Twi as neither mother nor sister, she is something in between... It cannot really be pinpointed, he loves her and she guides him which he appreciate and endorse and of that i dont think there can be any dispute.
Spike being around 10-13 years presumably whilst still being a "baby" makes it hard to pin his mentality in truth, the show too has a hard time to portray him. Silly at one moment, insightful and intelligent another while writer - forced clumbsy and outright stupid in others. You manage to put this mixed bag together marvelously
You really do yourself injustice as stated here and to be honest, you make reading about Spike a pure, consistent joy and i only know one more author whom manages that with me
Now, as to your worry... No, spike is mature. It consistently shines through in the show, but he is still a child lacking experience and you nail this imo.
Edit: Resisting urge to wrongly downvote above... Its a good post with a lot of truth, much as i completely disagree with conclusions.
Eh, I don't know, maybe a little? People here can get extremely Serious Business about the little guy; I once saw a guy explain that he would downvote any story without him in a starring role. If it didn't have him front and center, it was crap. You're nowhere near as bad as that, but you're kinda-sorta pointed vaguely in the same direction, if you get what I'm saying.
I have a theory that some people just can't handle being a minority demographic. The 'ew, what is this girly crap' instinct can be a hard one to break free of, and I think some people deal with it by latching on to the most visible male character and inflating his prominence, insisting that he's just as important as any of the female characters. Except, really, he isn't. I see people complain about him being treated like furniture, and I go: well... he kinda is furniture, in a way. That is his primary role in the narrative; he is an accessory to Twilight. He is not there so you can identify with him; he is there so you can identify with Twilight dealing with a rambunctious-yet-loving younger brother.
Others have written on this with far more eloquence than I possess. So let me just say this:
No you do not.
Although, let me add that that doesn't necessarily mean that writing a bunch about Spike is a bad thing, or that you should stop, or anything. We'd all be worse off if nobody wrote about Spike, and you're pretty good at him.
Honestly? I would say a little bit yes. NOT AT ALL to say that this is a bad thing! You do Spike in a very unique way, and it's certainly enjoyable to see something different than how he is usually portrayed. However, there have been times where your writings on him haven't exactly sat well with me. In 'Every Little Bit,' for example, I really loved the depth you gave his character, and his discussion on his father, it was a very creative and original take. But it doesn't fully agree with me on a core emotional level.
But that's just me. And I'll admit, I'm a
lazy bastardbusy soul and haven't done NEARLY as much reading as I would like, such as 'Zenith.' I also purposely avoided 'Immature' because it sounded like something that I KNEW would generate those subtle feelings of unease, and honestly I just didn't feel like reading about such a serious rift coming between Twilight and Spike. And I hate to say this, I really do, but it sounds like I may have been right.It's good of you to apologize (for whatever reasons), and for you to want to try again. But that, I think, is the crux of the matter: TRY, TRY, TRY! You just have more experience than most of us, but that doesn't make you perfect! Give it another go! I have faith that you can make it to your liking, and most of ours (not all, of course). If taking it down is what you feel you need to do to make it right, I say go for it. This is YOUR work after all, you should do what YOU want to make it feel good for YOU.
Basically, I can definitely tell that your Spike portrayals are influenced by your semi-pro career, but that is not always unwelcome. Now that you have become specifically aware of it, though, you can work to reel it in just a tiny bit. You just have to find the right balance.
I have faith in you, TD. Keep up the awesome work my friend.
Well now I want to give you a hug. I have not started immature or zenith, but im just finishing up the pins and needles and have read every little bit. I'd say go for it. Season 4 is starting soon and there's no telling what mccarthy will have spike turn into next. It's a legitimate concern that you might be focused too much on one character, but the stars should align to give you more inspiration and material soon.
I have something of a writing exercise that might help you through this dilemma, TD. I've been doing to help me get the characterization down in To Weep for Family, and I really do think it helps.
First: Take the basic concept of an episode that features the character you want to practice. For example, let's consider Spike at Your Service. Concept: "Applejack saves Spike's life. In return, Spike insists on fulfilling his Noble Dragon Code by doing excessive chores around her farm."
Second: Write a story with the given concept. It's a good idea to keep the moral of the episode in mind too so you have an idea of where the story should go. Other than that, though, try to remove your mind from the actual episode as much as possible. Write it the way you would write it based on your interpretation of the canon characters prior to that episode. This can be hard to do, but it's doable.
Third: Compare your story to the episode. Identify the similarities and differences between the two. Make a tangible list if it helps.
Fourth: Consider why some things in your story are different from the episode. What are the implications of those differences in regard to your understanding of the character and the canon's portrayal of the character? How would you have to change your interpretation to remove the difference? Consider questions like these carefully until you have an idea of how your character is different from the canon character.
Finally: Ask yourself whether your portrayal or the canon's portrayal is more apt to the actual non-episode stories you want to tell.
That last step is optional. If you want to remain 100% true to the canon, then you'll have to modify your understanding of the character accordingly. Remember, though, that the character will evolve throughout the story, so the character at the end might not be canonical even if the character you started with was.
As for my personal opinion of how you write Spike, I've never had an issue with it. In all the editing I've done for you, and in all of the previous stories of yours I've read, I've scarcely ever felt like Spike was out of character. I could visualize him doing and saying those things in my mind, and that was good enough to convince me the characterization was right. Even in Immature I think you did his characterization just fine, and I stand by that statement.
Hope this helps to some extent, TD. If nothing else, just have faith in yourself. If you were actually bad at writing Spike, do you think you would have all of these people here saying the opposite? Do you think they would've started following you in the first place if they weren't in agreement with your portrayal of him?
Keep on keeping on, man. Looking forward to the next chapter of Zenith.
1445178
This man speaks the truth of it. After reading so many of your fics, Descendant, I've gradually gained an understanding on your view of Equestria, and more importantly, your headcanon of Spike. With each story, you've built up his character more and more to the point where he's no longer a caricature and the butt of jokes, but an actual fully realized person. I think that's mainly why you're seeing a little more backlash with Immature.
The Spike that you write has grown so much across the span of several stories, each one adding another little nuance to his personality, that I can easily see why those unfamiliar with your fics would say that you blundered on the characterizations. If I had to compare it to something, I'd say its like walking into a movie halfway through and complaining at the end of it because the story didn't make sense. Combine that with the feature box(?) a heavier topic, and bad situation worsened by a healthy dose of terrible decision-making (I'm looking at you, Twilight), and you've got the makings of an angry mob on your hands.
Shrug off the naysayers, TD. If you like writing Spike then carry on. All of us here are just along for the ride.
But just know that when your next story hits the feature box... you can't decide who boards the train.
...
Please don't dumb down your Spike for the sake of the masses. That would be the worst possible thing.
In answer to the top question; no, you do not write about Spike too much. Spike needs a champion, and you may be him.
I think the reason for the response to Immature stems more from the fact that the single most important factor in the story is the ripping out of Spike's young heart. This seems like it's the one and only point to the whole piece of writing. The problem is that there was a little less focus given to the resolution, and the quick forgiveness and moving on from Spike just seems a little false. Consider that he has pretty much spent the last 3(?) years with his crush on Rarity, but then, in the space of a few hours, he decides that he could offer it to Twilight, where the reasons (while possibly explained) aren't entirely relatable. Because of this my mind tended to recall the story as merely tragedy from Spike's perspective, as it is harder to relate to and thus believe that Spike would or could accept the new situation like he does.
However, given that I'm still not quite convinced of Spike's internal motives, the end result is close (I don't exactly know what is perfect) to a supposed canon decision on Spike's part. That is why I still gave the story an upvote, and why I don't think you've distanced yourself too far from Spike in canon.
Whatever you take from this, I urge you not to take Immature down and change it. Doing so would be admitting to yourself that you failed in some way in writing it, and without even having read it yet, I can tell you that's not true.
Certainly you should use this as a learning experience. Learn more about Spike. Learn more about yourself. But don't punish yourself into believing that you failed Spike as a character with this story. Fanfiction and the concept of "fanon" are all ways of expanding upon an existing template and using it to express some new or larger idea. Because of the strong personal connection you have, you used Spike's character to expand the idea of a vulnerable child, and that's perfectly fine. The important thing is that you recognize that he is more than just a vulnerable child, and write him as such, and I wholeheartedly believe you are doing that.
First of all, I want to say that I appreciate the level of thought you've put into this post, and that reading about your personal experiences put some aspects of the initial response I planned into question.
I'll freely admit that when I read 'Every Little Bit,' I found Spike's whole speech about his dad to be rather... unexpected, for want of a better word. It was logically consistent, made sense after some consideration, and was ultimately enjoyable, but it was definitely a bit of a head-scratcher in how it challenged my views on Spike. After all, besides that part, I thought his characterization in the rest of the story was bang-on, before that finale left me rather bemused.
However, with that said and having read this post: I don't have a lot of experience in dealing with kids on any level, let alone within the educational system and the social trials therein. So in hindsight, my ignorance might have prevented me from recognizing that the gist of the dynamic presented in 'Every Little Bit' could be more plausible than I realized (high-fantasy fictional setting notwithstanding). Something to mull over on my part, certainly.
But I digress. I will endeavour to get caught up on 'Immature' tomorrow if it's still up, but in lieu of that, I can speak to 'Zenith,' though I've already done so at length in its own comments.
Simply put, I personally wouldn't want you to change a thing about Spike in that story. You've expressed some concern over your interpretations of his personality, and I think 'Zenith' has done a fabulous job of taking those quirks and keeping them true to the canon character. But the truly fascinating part is that while these traits are consistent, they're now being driven by a very different set of emotions. This produces a rather striking tone for the story, one that transforms our dragon into someone we're not necessarily familiar with, but who still seems authentic and engaging.
While I understand that there's a fine line to walk in interpreting canon characters, and one finer still in trying something daring within that process, I don't think you're in danger of taking Spike too far in 'Zenith.' My immersion at this point is considerable, and it couldn't have gotten there if I didn't believe this was a tale about Spike's adventures around the world, and not just an idle "What if Spike was/did X?" story (I'm generalizing and over-simplifying, apologies). Your interpretation of Spike - with all its complexity and deeper themes - is what keeps me coming back, as I've said in so many words elsewhere.
Basically, I hope you'll stay the course, because I love what you're doing with Spike now, and I'm eager to see what you have planned for him down the road.