Trigger warnings · 12:48am Apr 22nd, 2017
So, at least one reader is upset that Eigengrau lacks any sort of trigger warning, and there was a very brief, terse exchange. I don't know how seriously I should take this, and perhaps of more importance, I don't even know where to begin for trigger warnings on this story. I haven't given it a lot of thought and now, I am kinda sorta wondering if I had labeled certain things from the beginning, would the story have done better? If people saw a list of triggers and or fetish highlights, (which some people treat trigger warnings as) would it have come out of the gate a little stronger?
You'll have to forgive me, I'm dissecting this from every angle possible so that I might learn something from this. It is clear that things have gone wrong, but what?
How can I present this better in the future to prepare people for what lies ahead?
A couple of people felt that the 'Dark' tag wasn't sufficient warning enough for what awaited them in the prologue. Now, I am not going to belittle those folks, as the 'Dark' tag can mean different things to different people, and I guess some people went into this with some expectations of dark that were clearly off the mark... a reason why I generally try to avoid making dark stories for the Weedverse. People like having stuff clearly labeled on the tin, and that's understandable.
So, how does one place emphasis on the potential dark level of the story if the 'Dark' tag isn't enough? I don't know, is this a failure on my part? I felt the 'Dark' tag was a sufficient means to convey the contents of the story, but this was not the case. I feel like I'm flailing around in the dark here, trying to sort out everything that went wrong.
I want to convey all of the right content to the readers that wish to read that sort of thing while warning potential readers about subjects they wish to avoid, but this seems far more complicated than at first glance.
In short, I just don't know what wrong.
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People went wrong.
For what it's worth I feel like people that whine about trigger warning are whiney (*^%. If they came in to an M rated story with Sex and Dark as the tags and didn't expect messed up things that is on them.
Keep writing. Keep being awesome. Remember you don't owe the critics anything...or anyone else for that matter.
pfft. Honestly, if the Dark or Tragedy tags aren't considered a Trigger Warning, then NOTHING is.
4505086
I owe myself an opportunity to learn.
Ignore anyone who asks for trigger warnings, they're just out for attention after binging on tumblr and lead paint chips.
4505088
We all owe ourselves lots of things. I for one am enjoying your writing experiment. There are some hints of Lovecraft style madness, minus the eldritch horror, with a dash of what the fuckery. Frankly, I'm enjoying it and want to see where this ride goes.
Honestly? You could splash "DANGER!!!! SCREWED UP SHIT IN THIS FIC!!!!!" across the entire description, and certain people would still whine about how you didn't warn them adequately
. Although, I myself was a bit blindsided by some of the themes you explored. Not enough to put me off reading, but maybe a short list if triggers might be helpful. Maybe. Won't stop some folks from whining of course, but wouldn't hurt to have something to shove in their faces to say "See?! I warned you people, but you read it anyway!"
The story is tagged "Dark" "Sex" and "Mature." That was their warning, you've done nothing wrong nor did you bear any responsibility to do things differently.
Am convinced a lot of these complaints are people who won't admit to not noticing the tags.
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I might have appreciated something like, "Just a heads up, this contains some strong sexual content that you might find disturbing, proceed at your own discretion." If only to frame my expectations.
While the Sex, dark, and Mature tags should convey based on the site's policies that something might be problematic, the range of possibilities is so broad that some kind of warning could be courteous. How specific? Well, that I'm not sure about.
Not exactly a "Trigger Warning", but something like this might suffice?
"This story goes beyond the normal level of mature content found in the Weedverse. Reader discretion is advised, you have been warned."
4505108 How bout a warning pic like this in the description with a heading of "Beware of biblical topic below!"
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I know you feel something went wrong, but I must disagree. I think what is happening is that a segment (perhaps even a large segment) have gotten used to you effectively putting out mostly sweetness and light with a slight leavening of darker things. In a way, Eigengrau is the Isles arc in its own stand alone story. You remember what a shiatstorm that was.
TBH, when it comes to your stories I don't typically look at the tags or the description. I know I like your writing style and characterization, even when the subject matter is something that doesn't sit right with me. I doubt I'm the only one either... so I can see how some could get surprised by the content.
As to the trigger warnings... urgh. I'm part of a few writing groups on FB, and one of them just had some major drama about this very issue (made some of the furty drama I've seen in the past seem like a British upper crust disagreement in comparison). The general consensus was that, if you feel you should do them, do the majors: rape, drug use, and incest in the case of this story. This is a catch-22 though. You may/will lose readers either direction you jump.
My thought is, again only in the case if Eigengrau, do the obvious major things as a trigger warning in the description and the first chapter before you start the narrative. After that, they're on their own. That way you can catch the folks who jump in unaware. As for those that trigger on relatively minor things, they need to guard themselves and you don't need to cater to them.
4505106
Bibilical? What's so bad about snakes?
Any people who go into a fic labelled 'Dark' and 'Mature' and complains about finding dark and mature things there are the same people who force us to put labels on toasters that read 'Do not lick' and 'Do not use in the bathtub.'
I think, at the beginning of the first chapter, you might want to include something brief like:
This chapter includes graphic depictions of rape and incest for the purpose of explaining Dim's background and character.
Just a little thing to point out exactly what's coming up like you did for those certain chapters on the Chase, so those of us who wanted to skip those scenes could. I'm rather sex-repulsed, so that was a godsend.
I see some others here saying 'well what did you expect' from the tags, and, well, not that. I was expecting the Dark tag to apply more for the story - Dim Dark rising up from a horrific past through Dark Things to become just a little bit better than what had been planned for him, etc.
The sex tag? With the other Weedverse stories as a precedent... Not something that, well, graphic. The presence of the tags themselves doesn't always mean that the content is going to be all of those at once, after all.
I skimmed a whole lot of the first chapter once I realised what the subject matter really was, I'm afraid.
I am going to be reading the story, because I'm enjoying the actual story about Dim as a wizard-for-hire, on the run for his mother's possible murder, and exploring the Weedverse' Grittish Isles, and your writing's always good. It'd just be nice to have a heads up for the scenes to skip/skim - because the story itself it not exclusively made up of those scenes.
I'm probably butchering my explanation here. Let me know if anyone wants something I'm saying clarified?
4505132
Don't forget "Not for human consumption" on a block of C-4.
I understand that you want to learn from the "mistakes" on this story. Ok, just two points. One, most clopfics (I know this is not clopfic, but the first chapter is close to one and people may misunderstanding that) have trigger warnings in order to avoid people reading something that disgusts then (I'm ok with tentacle anal rape...but loving foreplay is so awfull for me...ykes). Second point: we all know that you have a very specific write style that we love...but it may be a little...too much...for newcomers...specially on this specific story.
But, please, finish this story...Dim is such a intriguing character !
4505128
Please don't tell me I have to explain Adam & Eve joke?
4505161 He's not!
4505139 fototime.com/E68B674EA5C22AF/orig.jpg
4505132
I licked a toaster once. My hair's been kinky ever since. Oh wait...
4505148
I just thought you were kinky in general.
4505139 Please tell me you're kidding. (reads picture above) Oh, no.
4505148 Yeah, but it was that way before, too.
4505132 Microwave warning.
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4505147
Nah, I'm just being cheeky.
4505161
I wish I was.
4505166 Oh good, I'd hate to have to try explain this one either!
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Feel that Dark is a poorly measured tag in mlp. Dark can be a story where the themes are dark and unsettling but you don't get a drop of blood.
ooorrr dark can be straight up cupcakes.
So its not really your fault at all. Its more the reader not realizing how dark you are iwlling to go, and that there is not a better tag for the concepts presented.
Honestly dude, tell them to FO. It is marked dark, that is enough. If they read it they have already acknowledged they are 18+ meaning an ADULT and should learn to act like a dog damn adult.
Plus, anyone who uses the word "triggered" to complain about something, clearly is NOT an adult. So to sum this up, just tell them to FO and do what you do best man, write great stories.
"This story may contain graphic physical or sexual violence"
I have no idea what was triggered here but that disclaimer usually covers most common things.
I think, while the dark tag is good, there's such a massive variation on what constitutes the "dark" tag on this site that it's overused. We've got "Dark" stories where things are simply unhappy and grim, or there's a war going on and characters get hurt and depressed. And then, we've got shit like Cupcakes, where it is a shitfest of insanity. That's a REALLY big range.
Rape is one of those very, very few things that I think deserves a warning at the start of a chapter that contains it, especially if the depiction is graphic in nature. Just throwing up an author's note that says "This chapter contains graphic descriptions of rape." Implying that a character was raped is a different situation than actually laying out the whole ordeal. While the Isles Arc from The Chase definitely implied rape, it never actually had a scene where it happened (though the aftermath was definitely there, and discussions about rape were there).
I think this is perfect.
Folks who don't like violent smut won't make it past the prologue.
Folks who want more violent smut are going to lose interest in the following chapters.
That's my explanation for the poor readership levels.
4505309
This seems astonishingly accurate.
Frankly, I understand people have had some experiences that make some things very hard to deal with, and have even had to step away from stories for a bit before continuing on, but the only warnings that are given should be within the description of the story, as the description (and tags), and not a label stating things, or through the story's progression.
The story has the Dark and Sex Tags, if they aren't mature enough to turn off the special snowflake parts of their brains long enough to enjoy the story without getting their jimmies rustled then MAYBE they shouldn't be reading fiction with the Sex and Dark Tags!
You basically named the story "Gray Morality Stretched to the Breaking Point," what more could they need? Neon signs and waivers to sign?
4505358 Let's be real for a second, though. The "DARK" tag is WAY overused on fimfic. It has too broad of a meaning due to people not understanding HOW to use tags just slapping things on their story. There are lots of stories with the "dark" tag that don't merit it. So, when somebody with a broad view of fics jumps into a story with a Dark tag, they're likely NOT used to it actually being a dark story. People think "dark" and assume it might have a depressing part or something scary might happen, or it deals with death as a topic (the most overused story point and why the Dark tag is fucking useless on fimfic).
It's really rare that a Dark story is meriting the Dark tag. Kudzu's story absolutely merits that, but most readers are going to see "Dark" and NOT understand that "Dark" runs a gamut between something depressing happening to a character, and fucking Cupcakes level torture shit.
Is this Kudzu's fault? No.
That said, would it be a good idea to be a little more specific about the fact that the "Dark" tag has some serious ramifications in this story (IE Rape and other actually dark themes)? Probably.
Easiest thing to do would be to put some specific content warnings in the description. The Dark and Sex tags cover a massive range of things with how they're used here, and quite often I find that they're over-used on things that really don't need them. You can find fics that are about consensual hardcore BDSM (IE branding, slave training, bull-whipping) tagged as Dark and Sex. You can find fics that contain The Talk tagged as Sex. You can find fics that reference canon ghost stories tagged as Dark.
Your story contains a lot of specific, graphic content that might trigger (yes, trigger, as in PTSD triggers [PTSD is also common in CSA and rape survivors, it's not exclusive to veterans of combat], it's an actual medical term used by actual psychologists) people, and the best way to go about handling this situation is to warn people about that specific content. People who don't mind reading it will do so, and people who don't want to will be able to make that choice for themselves.
In this specific case, I'd suggest at the very least putting a warning that it contains rape and graphic violence.
Trigger warnings are for Special Snowflakes. I haven't read the story, but a general warning about particularly disturbing content like rape, torture, gore, might be appreciated, depending on context. Thing's that the average person might come across that might not make a sensible person unreasonably uncomfortable don't need a warning lable. People shouldn't get bent out of shape over stupid things.
4505508
We can debate about the proper use of tags all day, bottom line is, Kudz used the tags correctly. Any resultant butthurt is on the fault of the reader, not the author.
4505660 Did you seriously just say that trigger warnings are for "special snowflakes" and then recommend that the author put trigger warnings on their content? Like, I don't know if you appreciate just how ridiculous that sounds.
4505935 yeah, I see that... although trigger warnings for me aren't so much trigger warnings as content I don't care for, unless handled a certain way. If I run into it and it's handled right, ok. If it isn't handled to my taste, I tend to just not read it. What "triggers" me is situations like "truth sounds like hate to those who hate the truth."
4505740 I think your dismissal of the topic is premature, here. The onus of putting proper warnings on a story is on the Author. Kudzu has been writing a while, and he should be aware that the Dark tag doesn't necessarily cut it when it comes to the actual content of stories. Hell, even clopfics tag a story with "rape" if it contains it. Why is it so much to ask that Kudzu put a tag for this at the start of the first chapter? It costs him 15 seconds of time now, and potentially warns people what to expect and SAVES him the annoyance of dealing with upset people in the long run. Seems pretty cut and dry what the best solution is.
4506349
It isn't an unreasonable solution, the problem here is that it is highly unnecessary. At what point do we come from, 'i read this, knowing what I'm getting into because I read the description and saw the tags given, even if I have strong difficulties with the topic at hand.' (Insert reasons why I read these things) to, 'I need to be given all the hand-held warnings prior to reading because I am unaware of what give the stories the right to hold the tags they do have, and can easily become offended and, or disturbed by what I read to a tramatic level.' Those that feel this way need to consider avoiding these stories that are marked as dark.
Once more, I'm not knocking against those who have issues with things that have affected them to such a degree in their past, but I do want to note that this is the internet, and it is just as real as the outside world. The internet is full of very dark, and very morally questionable content, see MLP:FIM fanbased content. This safe spaces and need for trigger warnings have come to such an extreme, it embarrasses even those who may politically allign with them, for the most part.
There is no open-mindedness anymore.just emotional lashing out against everything slightly 'wrong'.
Kudzu, I'd say keep as you were.
4506433 A minute of Kudzu's time to save him from having to deal with angry people in the future? Seriously, it's not hard to add an author's note, and the only reason NOT to do it is to make some kind of dumb statement. Seriously, it's only a win for him, while NOT doing it is going to lead to potentially more people he's gonna have to deal with complaining.
Also, your argument about this being the internet is flawed. The difference between the internet and the real world is that in the real world, you don't get to pick the content you're going to deal with (to an extent), whereas on the internet, you CAN. And, on the internet, it's EASY for people to label content! VERY EASY.
And yes, this means that you COULD argue that people who have concerns about content should avoid the "Dark" tag entirely... but, again, with the "Dark" tag having been rendered MEANINGLESS by people using it incorrectly, how can they be sure? Should they avoid every single "Dark" story? What if they CAN handle a story with, say, death as a topic, but can NOT handle rape as a topic? Do they have to avoid everything "Dark", now? How would you like it if I told you "Sorry, you can't look at stories with the 'comedy' tag now, because you don't like knock-knock jokes."
Seriously, it doesn't HURT anybody to put this warning up, and the alternative is POTENTIALLY harming somebody, when it would be REALLY EASY to prevent that. One minute of time, literally. It's not like he's gonna have to rewrite the story. You can literally have your cake and eat it, too, in this situation.
4506526
You misunderstand. It isn't a statement. Just something people shouldn't feel pressured into doing because tags are misused. If he does it, then I'm not complaining. Wouldn't if he didn't.
The second misunderstanding is that the reality is there are tons of very screwed up things on, and offline. Can we simply ignore shootings, racism, abuse of any form? No we cannot. Something as simple as a person's view on things is now enough to send people into a fit of angst and hurt feelings, needung for safe spaces. Frankly, I'm tired of people getting outraged because somebody wants a discussion for the sake of discussion. The reality is that people CAN choose what they are exposed to, and this includes dealing with things like an indwpendant human, separating themselves from something that makes them upset or uneasy.
4506639 I envy your lack of understanding of how trauma effects people's minds. I've worked with kids for years who have had really terrible stuff happen to them, and if it was as easy as saying "You just need to separate yourself from something that makes you upset or uneasy", it would be great. But it isn't that easy. Trauma fucks up your head. Part of your day to day life becomes minimizing the impact that the trauma has. Part of that is avoiding stuff that triggers you... but there's a line between "living in fear" and "acceptable risk". If the Dark tag WORKED, we wouldn't be having this conversation, but the Dark tag is overused. That's the problem.
It isn't asking a lot for somebody like Kudzu to put the warning up, because it doesn't require him to change ANY part of his story. Frankly, it is easier to DO it than NOT. One minute of work, and he doesn't have to deal with any worries of people complaining about a lack of warning. Why not do it? Give me a reason why it's better for him to NOT do it, which DOESN'T include "He shouldn't cater to the Tumblr crowd", because if that is your ONLY reason, then you are telling him not to do it to make a statement.
4506659
I have worked with, been friends with. And witnessed many people I have known, and have personally experienced moments where trauma would come back to a person. I have known many people who have learned, some with great difficulties, how to better place themselves outside of the experiences they have gone through.
I do understand. Once more, you clearly misunderstand me. Probably a fault of my own, but I honestly don't care. I've made my point the best I can and don't have any reason to discuss this any further with you when you seem to be keen on putting me down.
As an added note, I don't associate with anything tumblr.
4506674
I guess we're done discussing this, then.
I definitely didn't intend for that to come across as putting you down, for what it is worth. I was genuinely saying I wish it was so easy to deal with Trauma. I worked as a MHW in a foster care facility and juvenile detention facility. It was hard, so I think even if we disagree on some level about the trigger warnings, we can both agree that trauma sucks and it would be great if it was easy to help people deal with it.
I just shipped a box of triggers. Does that need a warning lable?