Something-or-other-verse stories. · 4:25pm Jan 18th, 2014
What is it with this fad of naming something that isn't a 'universe' a 'something-verse' just because a whole bunch of people decided to write the same thing?
Now, don't take this as a personal attack on your writing skills if you've jumped on that bandwagon. Your writing skills have nothing to do with it. The issue here is something else.
A Universe.
Why would you consider the exact same plot idea, exact same story-progression and basically the exact same everything a Universe? If it's a continuation of the same story by the same author, or a different author but with the same characters, you can call it part of a verse. But stealing a plot device and then justifying it as being a part of something is not the same.
In other words: what makes a fic original, doesn't make the regurgitation of the same as valuable or original.
Take for example something that is not called a 'verse' by anyone that writes it and yet has more claim to the title than just about any self-professed 'something-verse' I've ever seen: FO:E.
FO:E happens in the same universe as Kkat's fic. It has numerous authors writing hundreds of thousands of words. It's all happening in the same setting. References to the works of others abound, hell, even some crossovers between the stories! Sure, you might hate the grimdark, post-apocalyptic, game-based crossover/amalgamation, but every story is different, and those that are basically the same as every other story out there are honestly not respected, aggrandized or celebrated as part of the whole and are in fact, usually just left to die.
Not everyone comes from a STABLE. Not everyone is a hero, nor an anti-hero, nor a pony. Most stories involve characters that have their own agenda, that might be attempting to be heroes and failing or succeeding, or maybe they're just villains. Not all are ponies- if they're zebras their actual view on things are completely different than a pony's, or a gryphon's. While Rainbow Dash might be a hero to some, she's generally reviled by the Enclave. While some will see the Mane 6 as victims of their time, other characters see them as being responsible for the times they lived in.
Now. Let's go to Five-human-know-your-falling-chess-etc-verse.
Someone comes in with the original fic. Randomly: a human gets turned into a mute diamond dog. Original! Yay.
But then, 100 other people write the exact same thing! But, oh, their's is original as well, because you see their character is not a mute, deaf, limp, or some other character trait diamond dog, no. Their character is... A piranha (maybe that's too original) a Draconequus! "Ah swear it's not a Mary-Sue! It's a draconequus-minor" (Ye gods. That brings back memories of the late 90s and Ah! Megamisama fics where everyone and their grandmothers was a minor deity or demon.) Or if not a draconequus-minor it was some sort of other creature that would basically follow the same motions and plot device to the moment that it escalated to the point of hundreds of characters being 'selected' to be transported into Equestria by random gods all over the place and basically destroying what made the world original. And they added nothing new for the most part.
You might say: "But D! Just like in FO:E they're not the same! They're different species!"
Dude. Re-read what I said again. In FO:E, because it's treated as a setting, the views of each species are different. It's not just power-levels attained randomly, and they all don't start the exact same way. (i.e. I was a human until x happened and now I'm not! So unique! Never mind that I sound and am basically the same as the other 200 people this happened to!)
It's the same with just about all others I've had the misfortune to see. Again, as an individual, your story might be awesome. But it's in the same bandwagon as everyone else that basically exploited the exact same thing. Your human and you (verse). Know your mare-verse. Whatever-verse.
You want to write a good 'verse' thingy-story? Here's some guidelines to not be a half-assed copy-cat.
- First look at what makes the original, original. Got it? Now don't do that same thing.
- As yourself: What are you throwing into that world that wasn't done before? Will your story really be something unique to that world? How can your story draw from the first one and expand it?
- Then write it. But let me tell you: changing name of the character, say AJ, to say Starthing, just so you can have your self-insert raped to pieces by a pony, doesn't mean you should present as something that's part of a 'verse'. Hell, dumbing down every other human in the story just so that yours appears special doesn't need to be in the same lines as someone else's fic. And stop calling it a 'verse' when you're just writing the same shit with renamed characters that are still made of cardboard.
It doesn't make it original, at all, because it isn't. Even if you wrote it straight out as what it is, it still wouldn't be original. You will still get views, but naming something part of a 'verse' just because you want to drag attention to it? That's sad.
I don't know, but I want one.
... and I suspect that's the thing. People want an impact. A 'verse gives them that impact. If I could spawn a... lets say, Derpyprincessverse, I'd be inordinately happy. I know I won't, but it would be an ego boost if I did.
Wanderer, while sometimes i do not sympatice with what you write you just hit the nail in the head. This is kind of funny because yesterday i was thinking what would wanderer thin about the Checkers verse (you being kind of an enemy of unoriginality) and what you said kind of verbalized my thoughts. I read the first history and its continuation (still do read them) echo the diamond dog, it got its faults but is overall a nice story and a satisfying fantasy power trip.........then i tried to read the "second most important history in the verse" Jesus the griphin of macawesome............man that history redifiened what i called a Mary Sue....and the angst....omg the angst, i have tried giving the verse a chance i have read some other histories.......all of them follow the same path and fall in exactly the same traps. This silliness has got to the point were i can tell them appart just by their cover image and i am avoiding them like the plague
I think I need a slight bit of clarification about what problem you're addressing, Wanderer. Are you talking about someone labeling a story's setting a "universe" or are you talking about people writing other stories in a setting that the author calls an alternative universe? I ask because I'd always been under the impression that when people writing in a "verse", they're taking advantage of a story being labeled an (alternative) universe. Personal example, I mentally regard the setting in which the Guardian rose and was defeated, Trixie and Big Mac are a couple after she was resurrected, Twilight as Celestia's biological child, and a Twilight-clone-turned-earth-pony named Dawn is around and has a thing for Applejack as the "Empty Room-verse" although I'd never put the label in the description. Is that the sort of thing you're criticizing here?
1731105 No, it's the thing where they have say an original story as a universe, and rather than a continuation or leaving it alone, they decided to write the same plot idea all over again, but with a 'new' and 'original' character that follows the exact same lines and ideas. It's not even writing from another character's perspective in that same universe, say for example Spitfire's POV during TER. It's as if another author suddenly wrote a story with the same exact premise, but happening to Shining Armoire and Cadance for 'originality'. Yes, the misspelling is intentional.
And then call it part of that fics 'universe' just to ride on its popularity.
Thank christ for this. I've had problems with all these "-verse" fics for a while, but I couldn't express why. Cheers
I'm with you. I'm an avid member of the FoE universe (it's a personal thing that I need to follow any of them no matter what) but we do need more originality. There's so many stories about a hero emerging from a stable, or a broken water talisman (fallout 1 by the way), or a raider redeeming themselves, or amnesia.
I love the verse but I agree we need new ideas. That's why I have a group dedicated to crossing the FoE universe over with other series. We need more triple crossovers so that we have more new ideas, and trust me there's some very interesting ideas on the thread. I have a few interesting collabs based on this in the pipes.
I'm not saying that the unoriginal concepts automatically make for a bad story (Memories is about amnesia haven't read it yet but I've heard nothing but good things, Guise of Chaos is about a Raider redeeming themselves I've only read the first chapter but its good), nor am I saying all FoE's are good (Celestia knows I'm not saying that). But what I am saying is we need a shot in the arm of new ideas.
The problem I have with some verse fics is that they aren't exactly 'verse' fics. The winning-verse comes to mind for this:
From my understanding, the winning-verse isn't any sort of world or setting, it's just normal show Equestria with a whole lot more sex, with a few iconic characters making appearances. But the word for that would be something more like spin-off or unofficial sequel, rather than saying that Ponyville with more sex is really a 'universe'. It doesn't seem like anyone made a universe, they just made some characters.
Maybe I just haven't read enough of the original.
I don't know about you guys, but I am excited to see stuff set in this universe.
Oh, D, implying attention isn't the sole reason people write up 'verses. Damn originality and exploring new ideas and interesting situations and characters, let's have more of that personality-less fill-in find naked anthro pones please, with an extra serving of changeling fetish, please. Love for aesthetic, or an appreciation for artistic sense? Is that something you can eat?
Sarcasm, of course. Clam yo tits. Though it makes me well and truly sad that I have to put something like this here.While I'm at it, excuse the bitterness. It's late and you're really preaching to the choir here. You have, lots of times actually - shooting fish in a barrel - but I'm actually going to post this to see if I'd really regret it instead of aborting it on the fear thereof.
The talk of 'verses, and you fail to mention the biggest offender of them all:
Winningverse.
~Skeeter The Lurker
Isn't it obvious? It's easy to write and gets popular fast since people liked the original. Look at FoE and the Winningverse. VERY popular. Not that hard to write. It's like a coloring page as opposed to a blank canvas.
That does really nark me. It's no other reason than trying to ride someone elses coattails and get popular off their back, or link up fics with more popular ones. I could claim all my fics are 'BLUEVERSE' but that would literally mean nothing.
Ye gods, that's the first time I've seen such a huge don't green... Usually it's red, like tasty blood of a virgin (or fresh apple from AJ's orchard, in case you're a fruit vampire instead of a normal one
)...
I'm not really sure whether to say I agree with this blog or not.
On the one hand, that kind of unoriginality is poison, and just doing the same story with minor differences and trying to get away with it by calling it a part of a 'verse is a terrible, terrible thing. And that is what you're complaining about as far as I can tell. That and the cynical way that some writers will exploit this for more views and attention.
But on the other hand, the intended use of the term is meant to indicate a shared continuity. A Fallout Equestria or Winning Pony spin-off might just be aping another writer's concept and most likely doing it worse, but whether they have a claim to calling themselves part of a 'verse or not is dependent on whether they acknowledge the story that they're based on and maybe other side-stories too as being in continuity with them; it really has nothing to do with originality.
I guess I'm trying to say that I'm with you on how 'verse stories are treated, but it's not really inaccurate to say that an unoriginal story is part of a 'verse if it does keep continuity. Where I do have a problem with this is when there's no continuity either, because then a term is being misused.
The example that immediately pops to mind is Conversion Bureau. I've never read any of them myself, but the way I understand it, the original CB is universally ignored for being terrible, and most CB stories we see are different takes on the concept, not actual side-stories to the original fic. If such a fic were to hypothetically label itself a side-story set in the Conversion Bureau universe when not actually acknowledging the original, then that's the point when this whole 'verse thing becomes an actual problem for me.
Or to use an example that more people would recognise, a My Little Dashie clone trying to claim to be part of a "Dashieverse" of some kind when there's nothing whatsoever to indicate it shares continuity with what it's ripping off.
TLDR: I only really have a problem with the label when it's inaccurate. Originality is a different issue as far as I'm concerned.
1731404 Especially when you consider that popularity gained on a coat-tail doesn't transfer to your other works.
I speak from experience.
The one that started the fad was the Lunaverse, and I really think it made sense for that particular series because it is definitely another universe and the author transformed it into a full collaboration thing. Then everypony started copying the 'verse' thing because it sounded cool and now the definition of a 'something-verse' is a bit subjective, For me it just a funny and short way to call a collection of fanfictions of a particular fanfiction, that's it.
Of course Just like our normal pony fanfiction, it can be terrible and completely unoriginal, but it can be good, you know? It is not the fault of the 'verse' thing when authors choose the same topic over and over coughhiecough.
See, this is the problem I have with 'M theory' and all other flavors of String Theory
I felt ambivalent for a bit mostly on the misplaced thought that "But 'Myou've Gotta Be Kidding Me' is a pretty awesome story..." But actually, it's not really relevant to the discussion, since though it wandered that way the post wasn't really about deriding the quality of every story in every so called 'verse.' It was just deriding the attention-seeking practice of slapping a 'whatever-verse' label onto every crappy story.
Anyway, I think just using the word 'verse' over and over again divorces it from what I think the origins of the term are. "Expanded Universe." Verse doesn't even sound like a word to me anymore, so it's clear to me that it never had a particularly strong connotation in my mind if saying it twenty times knocked it out. Also, since it doesn't sound like a word anymore I've totally forgotten whatever commentary I was about to make on it.
So whatever...
Oooh, look at this.
1731203
"Clam yo tits."
I tittered, for sure. I was amused. Dat mental image.
Can we please just ban all groups with the word 'verse' in their names?
I'm not sure I agree.
First of all, there are a lot of people here saying that the only reason people write these kinds of stories is because they are riding coattails and want to get popular and the like. That doesn't strike me as being necessarily true. Sure, it's likely true for a number of them, but on the other hand it's just as possible that somebody liked the original story and wanted to write something similar because they were a fan. A fan fiction of a fan fiction if you will.
As for your comment, Wanderer, I don't think it's such a bad thing. I think we're having a slight disassociation of perspective between mod and average reader here. As a mod, I get that it's probably frustrating from your end to end up seeing a bunch of people writing what amounts to almost exactly the same plot (The Chess Game of the Gods verse sticks out in my mind), but to a reader I don't think it's such a big thing.
Ultimately, what I find important is that the authors of these fics, whether they are unoriginal or not, are getting writing practice, which is perhaps the most important thing. Just because something is unoriginal doesn't necessarily mean it's BAD, if you'll believe it. I myself have many a time looked at fics on this site and said, "Wow! This is a good premise! Too bad it's marred by OOC stuff/bad grammar/weird plot direction/ultra-fast pacing. I rather want to write this story myself now if only because a premise like this deserves better!"
I don't know if that's what goes through many of the authors' of these stories heads, but I feel that's a perfectly legitimate reason to write a story, even if it could be seen as 'unoriginal.' Wanting to write your own take on a story isn't a bad thing in my mind because at the end of the day it gets you writing practice and you might end up with something better than before. You never know.
I mean, yeah, I'm sure in 90% of cases it doesn't turn out that way. But that's sturgeon's law. It applies to everything.
1731119 Ah, okies. I thought it might be something like that but I wasn't sure.
Dude, I see your frustration and empathize, but all a story needs to be a "verse" fic is to take place in the same setting (universe) as the original or stem or branch directly from it. It really does not matter about the characters or the story.
And I will give you one reason why I empathize but do not sympathize. This is already (with no qualifiers, just basic definition) stricter criteria than what defines a story as a FiM fic.
Nobody cares, writing is for fun.
Besides it's fanfiction of fanfiction, I don't see what your point is?
1734588 It's (unoriginal) fanfiction inspired by fanfiction pretending to be part of the original by copying the exact same premise and ideas and putting it in the 'same universe'. That's what irritates me.
1734297 You see, you're missing the point. I'm not against continuations or fics that happen in the same setting. What pisses me off, is what I said above: The exact same thing being used constantly as an excuse for lack of creativity.
1732734 Fair enough. I admit my issue is a personal pov, (hence me bitching in a private rather than site-wide blog). But as a writer, seeing people just jump in, be it inspired or not, or just for the bandwagon attention, with the exact same premise and claim that it's part of something rather than just admitting it's a blatant rip-off... it's really annoying and lazy.
1732548 Nope.
1732480 In this situation, I see it less as 'expanding' and more like pulling a Suri Polomare and riding on someone else's success. If they were expanding, the world would grow and it could be called a verse. What happens most of the time is simply a re-write with their own little self-insert as a character and some vague references to the original.
1732359 That it's the exact same thing under another name?
1732336 I admit there are some good ones. The vast majority are not, though.
1732183 Well, I did use FO:E as an example of a 'verse' concept done well, regardless of the quality of certain stories. And TCB has something different going on in that it's, just like FO:E, a setting, where similar circumstances are happening globaly and you can have similar starts that make sense.
1731617 But it caught your attention
1731305 Like I said: bandwagon popularity.
1731271 I tend to erase that from my brain.
1731198 You just might. Keep an eye on the updates.
1731194 Exactly. The problem with Winningverse is that it's not even an expanded universe in most cases; it's a more promiscuous Equestria which basically is a given for every single clopfic out there.
1731155 Always happy to add thoughts to Plum-verse.
1731125 Please. Do so.
1731063 Oh, they do get an impact. An impact against the wall of creativity and originality. And then we have to wade through their remains to find the good stuff.
1734945 Pretty much
(not to mention there are stories on this site that seem like more accurate/provable models of reality than any publication with the word 'superstring' in the title)
1734945
Ahhh, that explains sooooo much...
~Skeeter The Lurker
Whelp, I've learned something.
1734945
Oh, OK. So what you have a problem with is copycat fics using being a "-verse" fic as an excuse, not these fics defining themself as -verse fics.
But there are lots of copycat fics and tons of unoriginal fics that are not -verse fics. At least the -verse fics actually do have an excuse, if a poor one.
In that case, my feelings are the same. I would respect this complaint if very similar fics were disallowed and -verse was the excuse letting them on, but they aren't. And there is no way for any such thing to be fairly moderated.
I do agree with your message to the authors of these fics though, but unfortunately your post is not excessively clear and came off as an argument of what the definition of a -verse fic should be rather than a complaint about people using -verse status to write copycat fics.
Especially to someone who has never read -verse fics that were written like that, only ones written as sequels or side-stories to the original. I dislike -verse fics in general.
I think the biggest issue I have with what you're saying, specifically about the CGotG group, is that they do have a well-defined, cohesive world/setting in which the various authors place their characters, that have crossovers with each other and in which authors actually interact and have their characters run across each other.
That being said, I understand what you mean by unoriginality here, in that many of the stories are all about the characters being bad-asses who can do things because they're mary sues and stuff.
1734945
By that logic fimfiction is a shining beacon of unoriginality, which I suppose it is, but I think calling any writing in a particular 'verse' unorigional is downright hypocritical because really it's just a more specific form of fanfiction. You write fanfiction of X. these guys write fanfiction of XY. One might be more extreme but it's still essentially the same thing.
What really decides originality is the actual content, they may be writing in a certain cannon but the ideas spun off of it may be wholly brilliant.
Basically, everyone is fucking unorigional, shit gets recycled endlessly into more shit. consuming stale shit from the bottom of the pile does not make the shit you spew out inferior automatically, that depends entirely on your digestive tract.
1737757 The point is the people using the exact same plot device and story and then claiming that 'it's okay because it's in in whatever-verse' is what's annoying me. I've never argued that the content of most fics is not original in its own way, but you're reading my criticism of people that use 'verse' as a sorry excuse to write the exact same thing as whoever wrote the original, as applying to every story here, which is not the case.
1737932
Ah, sorry my mistake. I should really start reading peoples blog posts rather than skipping to the comments.
Ok I think I am starting to get an idea of what your talking about. The plageristic idiots who claim that thay wrote something in the same 'universe' as some other story. I fear I nbever really consider thoes to be a 'verse' I consider them to be other storys that someone ran a global name change over and claimed as there own.
For me, a 'verse' is a setting, aka one thay have in the winning pony group is t he dead derpy verse. That fits as a verse because it takes a concept and shares it among storys. Heck, FOE is a 'verse' as its a setting that many people have writen in, some of them good, some bad, some of them the copy storys your complaining about.
Sadly there are far too many idiots around, and too many people that are unable to have an original idea if there lives depended apon it.
Conversely, I have seen good storys done that used an idea from another author. Half the FOE storys can fit that easily, but then you get the people that do hnot write storys, thay take someone elses story and basicly gives it a search and replace for names, sometimes sadly not even t hat.
Also, personaly, I would not mind seeing a good HiE story, but my gods, what do some of thies people think? I mean really, what would you do if one day you woke up and found that your a pony, in equestria? The marry sue issum, thats kinda common, a lot of heros/leads tend to be that at lest a little. After all, having your char fall over dead cause he got shot is not going to get you too many readers.
1737024
don't forget, one of the rules to writing a story for the chessverse was to have "human turns into X species" the mary sue thing was kind of a joke for us.