Some of you like magic that's dismissed with the wave of a hand. "A wizard did it," explanations. That's fine. This is for those who like their magic to seem more...real.

At its core, magic is hand-waving. You might've had an exchange like this when you were a kid:

I attack you with a fireball!

I'm immune to fire!

I use poison!

I'm immune to poison!

This is magic. Really, really unsatisfying magic, but it's still magic.

You can make your magic more real by adding more answers to any question that starts with 'why.'

Why can Twilight and her friends defeat Nightmare Moon?

The most unsatisfactory answer to this is "because magic" because it doesn't really answer anything. The show doesn't do this. It says "because they have the Elements of Harmony." Well, okay. So why do the Elements of Harmony do anything? "Because they're stronger than Luna." Okay, but why are they stronger than Luna? "Because friendship." Okay, but why does friendship do anything?

And that's the end of the Elements of Harmony's magic system. It answers three basic "why" questions.

I'm going to contrast this with one of Brandon Sanderson's magic systems. Now, whether or not you like him is up to you, but you cannot deny that he knows his stuff. His magic systems are often described as scientific.

He uses a magic system in one of his books where people can gain certain abilities by eating metals. Great. Let's use the "why?" test on it.

Warning: If you haven't read Mistborn, this might be spoilery for you.

Why is Vin special? Because she's a Mistborn. Why does that matter? Because they can do magic by eating metals. Why does eating metals give them power? Because some guys in the past ate a special metal that let them eat other metals to give them power. Why does that special metal let them do that? Because it's part of a super powerful being's body. Why is that being super powerful? Because he took part of the power from an even more powerful being that made the universe, along with some other people. And that's where it ends. Five why tests before it becomes hand-wavey.

The more "why?" tests a magic system passes, the more believable it becomes.

It is true.

The more rules, limits, conditions that one magic system has, the more 'suspension of disbelief' the audience is willing to grant.

There are many fanfics that deal with the subject, from different fandoms, and the results are as varied as the fandom themselves.

6130428

The more "why?" tests a magic system passes, the more believable it becomes.

Why?

6130428 As a guy who does science (not all the science, mind, just the interesting bits), pretty much all magic tends to boggle my mind.

I'd much sooner recommend you figure out how to stop people from asking why in the first place. That's a very different thing from saying 'yo, it's magic, yeah, so shut up about it'. Gandalf doing spells is natural. Why? Being able to use crazy mind wacky spells bloody well isn't natural. The guy waltzed into Middle Earth and nobody asked questions about his freaky fireworks though, did they? Why is that?

Seems to me that's the real magic trick, and I'd recommend getting a handle on how that works over trying to make up rules for magic. Trying to make magic science is a difficult game, after all, and either way, you're going to have to find a way to sell a lie. You want to red-herring it, fine. That's a strategy.

It's not the only one.

6130455
Except you do find out why Gandalf does what he does. It doesn't have to to be science based, but you do need specific rules and parameters to follow, otherwise every scene with it feels more like a Deus Ex Machina then a conclusion that you can understand and agree with.

I hope you're not aiming for some kinda quantification of magic systems, because if you are... you're wrong. Sanderson's magic system turns into a handwave at one question. It's this one.

Why is that being super powerful?

But oh, you'll say, that was the fifth question! To which I respond, there's nothing to stop me from asking that question first. There's also nothing to stop me from asking a hundred minor questions about the MLP magic system which it can answer satisfactorily, and voila, Faust beats Sanderson handily. This isn't a very good way to measure anything.

I mean, sure, the basic idea of "have some logical underpinning to your worldbuilding" is sound. But trying to quantify it in this particular way just causes more problems than it solves.

6130428
Heh, I was just about to bring up Mistborn.

Rules and systems of understanding help readers figure out the puzzles of the story. But as fanfiction writers, I think its our challenge to work in a functional magic system. Try with the basics and work your way outward.
I have stories that heavily use other magic systems, Slayers and Final Fantasy, so my personal challenge there is to make them function reasonably in Equestria.

6130570
I prefer the Nasuverse (Type-Moon) magic systems.
Besides it can be like Marvel Comics, Dr Strange once explained that Magic itself not only has rules but it's also alive in a sense.
The matter is that the rules are almost always depends on circumstances and conditions, it's just that we don't know all the rules, but they are there.
He explained as a "give and take" relationship, but with the exchange/trade hiden and/or delayed.

6130447
There is a difference between putting the limitations and making them known.
Sometimes it's not a question of putting limitation but making sure the readers understand them.

6130635
It is true.

Take for instance, what makes the magic from The Dresden Files work.

It is mostly belief-infused magic with words to serve as buffer towards raw magic.

Then there is Harry Potter, where one wields a focus (the wand) along with intent and words to cast the spell, where all elements affect the final result.

6130428
I very much sympathize with the idea you're expressing here, as it basically boils down to the difference between soft and hard magic. MLP magic is the epitome of soft magic, and Harry Potter is right behind it; it does "stuff," often contradicts itself and makes up rules on the fly, but it rarely actually helps, and when it DOES help, it's because of something vague like friendship or love that ends up being "the heroes win because good people win" rather than an actual explanation. Hard magic IS much more satisfying, at least in my opinion; it's the reason why you can't just magic things away, but it also means it can be useful because you're working within rules and parameters that set limits. Working within those limits feels believable, and breaking those limits actually carries the appropriate level of "holy crap that just happened." It feels reliable, and it's more understandable than just saying, "because magic." It's satisfying to be able to explain and understand why something does what it does or works in a certain why. At least…for some people. Not everyone wants to get into the nitty gritty, and if you only have 22 minutes of show, you can't spend half of it explaining what is happening in detail aside from quick magi-babble (a close cousin of techno-babble).

I find that a magic system usually comes down to the core element, or instead of asking "why," the very first question should be "how?" How does this thing exist that doesn't in our everyday world? What does this world have that makes its people special, and why are some MORE special than others? Writers are very good at coming up with justifications for their particular "magic" (because when characters are flying or throwing energy balls or using psychic powers or what have you, it IS essentially magic–sci-fi RUNS on magic) and I love seeing them. Some use weaponized emotions (ex. friendship, love a la…pretty much everything), some use theorized natural energy sources that we just need to learn to use correctly (ex. chi, mana, prana, etc.), or they create something new entirely to fuel their "what if" scenario (ex. Element Zero a la Mass Effect). That thing, though, is the defining characteristic of any system and narrows down what paths you're going to follow. What's even better, though, is when you have interconnecting systems within the same universe; THAT can be really fun…and nightmare inducing from a writing perspective…thus why it's hard to find hard magic systems that don't eventually just kind'a shrug at you and you just kind'a accept that it's awesome and that's really all there is to it.

If you've never read The Immortal Game, I'd highly recommend it; it does a great job of applying rules and parameters to an otherwise very nebulous system. It doesn't get too bogged down in detail, but it gives just enough explanation for what is happening and why that it meets a nice balance between soft and hard magic. Plus, you know, Twilight just generally being epic.

6130428

I'm going to contrast this with one of Brandon Sanderson's magic systems. Now, whether or not you like him is up to you, but you cannot deny that he knows his stuff. His magic systems are often described as scientific.

He uses a magic system in one of his books where people can gain certain abilities by eating metals.

90% of which turn out to be complete bullshit by the end of the trilogy, because those well-established 'scientific' rules get thrown out of the window faster than you can say "Mary Sue" the moment Vin needs a new asspull superpower. Literally every single limitation to allomancy that is established in the first book is broken by the end of the third, with all of "because she's just that awesome" for a justification.

Brandon Sanderson is a godawful writer and I can't understand for the life of me how anyone who has actually read those things could still call him competent.

6130725
That doesn't make sense. He knew the real rules himself. He didn't give Vin new powers when she needed them—he set up a magic system, and then kept the readers, and characters, ignorant of how it really works.

You're stating that he's an awful writer. I'm going to disagree. You don't like him. That's fine. But that statement is false.

6130736

That doesn't make sense. He knew the real rules himself. He didn't give Vin new powers when she needed them—he set up a magic system, and then kept the readers, and characters, ignorant of how it really works.

No, he is, in fact, just bad. When you establish a well-defined magic system, it has to be consistent and truthfully explained. What is stated to be impossible needs to stay impossible. When you establish a rule, you bloody well need to stick to it, because otherwise you might as well be making shit up as you go along. "Copper makes you invisible. - Nope, you just need to be more powerful." "You can't affect metal inside someone's body. - Nope, you just need to pull harder." Vin pulls special awesome badass over 9000!!! powers out of her ass at the drop of a hat and we, as readers, are expected to swallow it because lol unreliable narrator.

That is hack writing. There's at least half a dozen deus ex machinas in the last half of the third book alone, with the flimsiest of excuses to justify it. I would call any other author out on that kind of crap and I'm not giving Sanderson a free pass on it just because his fandom insists it's ok when he does it.

6130763
I see where you are coming from. Yes, changing the rules is usually bad. It's not okay because Sanderson does it, it's okay because it makes sense after the fact, and before if you pay attention to the foreshadowing. He knew what he wanted the ending to be before the fact, and he worked toward it. That's what makes it okay. I understand if you don't think that makes it okay, but it doesn't make him a hack writer.

6130806
It does for the same reason that writing a "locked room" murder mystery where the perpetrator turns out to be a previously unmentioned ghost who can walk through walls would: it actively goes counter to the entire point of a murder mystery, which is to give the reader a fair shot at figuring out the culprit based on the evidence the characters discover during the story.

If you give your readers wrong information about what the rules are, there is factually no qualitative difference to not having rules at all. It means the reader is incapable of deducing what the characters are capable of, how they might overcome a particular challenge and what they must do to achieve their goal. Even the Lord of the Rings is more consistent than that: It never defines precisely what Gandalf can do, it never defines how he does it, and it still makes more sense than that as a magic system, because it at least never contradicts itself. Gandalf can do magic because he's an archangel and literally helped build the universe at the beginning of time. Throw the ring into the Crack of Doom to destroy it. Frodo doesn't spontaneously develop a halfling-specific ability to chew up Rings Of Power because of his superior dentistry powers.

it makes sense after the fact, and before if you pay attention to the foreshadowing.

It doesn't. There is no foreshadowing for Vin becoming capable of defying one of the explicitly stated rules at literally the last possible moment during her climactic final battle with the primary antagonist. If you can't tell the difference between a planned twist and a plot hole except by the post-hoc explanation, then that is, in fact, simply bad writing. Doing a bad thing intentionally is still doing a bad thing.

6130853
I disagree with your conclusions, though your reasoning is pretty sound. It does seem like the rules change mid-read. I suppose the difference between us is this: I think it's fine if the rules turned out to be something different all along, as long as they still fit with what was shown to us, and you don't.
And the earing was pretty subtle, I admit. Alright, that's fine. I enjoyed Mistborn, but there you have it. Have you tried any of his other books, then? Such as Elantris? It seems like that'd be a magic system more to your liking.

6130940

I suppose the difference between us is this: I think it's fine if the rules turned out to be something different all along, as long as they still fit with what was shown to us, and you don't.

I think a well-written story should only ever deceive its characters, never the reader. When something is presented as a fact about the setting itself, not as what it known specifically to the characters, it should be actually true and remain so. You simply cannot create a satisfying narrative that doesn't properly adhere to its own internal causality. How can you really care and get invested into a story where you can't be sure what is even going on or why? If anything can basically arbitrarily happen whenever for any or no reason whatsoever, it isn't really a story at all anymore and there's no real point to anything. It's just a vaguely defined list of things that maybe happened as described, or maybe not, and maybe mattered, or maybe didn't.

Have you tried any of his other books, then? Such as Elantris? It seems like that'd be a magic system more to your liking.

It's not the magic system that bothers me, it's the slapdash way it's incorporated into the story... although I suppose it didn't really help that I thought Kelsier was about a thousand times more interesting of a character than the rest of the cast combined. I was so annoyed by the point I was done with Mistborn that it that it turned me off of trying any of his other books so far, but I suppose I might give some of his later stuff another chance sometime. Maybe his writing is better developed in those.

And the earing was pretty subtle, I admit.

The earring was actually clever and really did make perfect sense in retrospect, credit where it is due.

6130958
I see. The problem is, Brandon Sanderson uses third person limited. So the readers are the characters. If Vin thinks something is fact, that something is fact. So maybe third person limited isn't your thing?

6131000
That isn't really how I meant it. 3rdPL limits the point of view to what one character sees, knows and believes, yes, but it will tell you so. When it says the character sees the sun shining, then the character sees the sun shining. When it tells you the character believes something, then that's what the character believes. It isn't actually narrated by the character, though.

Imagine, for the sake of the argument, this, though: a 3rdPL narration repeatedly uses the phrasing "the inescapable grip of gravity." Then, a character falls to his death. It is very tragic. All the characters say so: he never had a chance.

Ten chapters later, it is suddenly revealed that actually, the character survived. The reason? Gravity doesn't work like the story has, until this point, consistently told you that it does: if you flap your arms really hard, you can actually fall any distance and be just fine.

Wouldn't you go "this is bullshit" at that point? That's pretty much how Mistborn treats allomancy and it's why I consider it deceptive storytelling. If it was made clear that all these things are just assumptions made by the characters and that they don't necessarily reflect the reality of the setting, I wouldn't be complaining. It never actually does that, though, it treats it as hard fact in and out of character. That's the problem.

A believable magic system is when Da ting go skkkkrrrraaa, papakakaka Skivipipopop and a poopooturrrboom.

Skrra, tutukukututoom, poompoom. You dun know.

Watch the video if you need further explanation.

6131004
There are different degrees of third person limited. Yes, there is a style where you make it clear that it's just the character's belief about something—this style uses the words "seemed" and "about" and "probably" an awful lot. Brandon goes deeper though.

It's quite a leap to say you don't like an aspect about an author's story to then saying that you think he's a bad, hack writer, though. Objectively, he's quite good.

6131049
There is no such thing as being objectively good at writing.

Personally, I think it says quite a lot about an author if he misses the point of having a defined, rule-based magic system so badly that he basically ends up making it meaningless in the end. It speaks of either not understanding what you're doing or not caring enough to do it properly.

Brandon goes deeper though.

Not in any way I noticed, to be frank. The prose was unremarkable and fairly bland, in my opinion. Then again, I thought all the characters were really pretty flat and generic to begin with, but I suppose that's a matter of taste.

6131127
Ever so sorry for inadvertently insulting your awful taste in literature, I guess.

6131127

You know what your problem is? DA TING GOTTA GO SKRAA! TAK TAK TAK TAK! POOM POOM!

Ya dun now!

6131168
Thank you for sharing your feelings with the group, we value and appreciate your feedback. Feel free to start contributing something intelligent and constructive to the discussion at your leisure.

jesus fucking christ you people. having a polite discussion is "trolling" but barging in to go "dude, you suck" at a guy is a-ok? wtf even?

6131127 Personally, I hated the fact that Gandalf's magic wasn't properly explained. That's one of the reasons why in my novel, I dedicated a whole chapter just for explaining the magic.

Anti-magic
This includes different branches of magic from alchemy to elemental magic. What sets it apart from other magic branches is its effect. While the focus of most magic types is influencing matter, Anti-magic deals in canceling magic resultant. This is achieved by synchronizing with magic flows, turning them benign; canceling the results of magic; reflecting magic; containing the spread of magic or binding with magic in a way that produces little to no consequence, but consumes all the magic in the process.

The lack of any useful outcome makes this magic fairly unpopular. Though, some cancellation usages did find their way into medicine books for treatments of various magic poisons and after spell backlashes.

Black magic
The forbidden magic isn’t really an actual branch of magic, the book, however, tried to portray it as such. In reality, it’s more of a moral branch. Ponies stick all the spells they deem immoral in the black magic category, so they can distance themselves from what they don’t approve of. But it’s not the magic itself that is different. It consists of all the other magic branches. The only difference is that the means or the effects of the spells can be harmful. Separating things by that criterion is too superficial, though. We impact our surroundings all the time. We trample the fertile earth beneath our hooves and prevent it from flourishing. The plants that beat the odds and grow get chewed upon by the vicious pony species. Black magic spells are just the next logical step from the harm we already do.

Blood magic and necromancy spells are the most detestable ones in this category. That has less to do with them being offensive oriented and more to do with ponies perceiving them too alien to be tolerated. They fear the magic subcategories because they don’t understand them. At the same time, they shudder the thought of getting to know them. It’s a mental loop that is bound to keep black magic from being widely used by the general population for a millennium to come.

Blood magic
As some plants have their magic effect, which can be used in various alchemical brews, so too do animals. Of various parts that a biological creature consists of, its blood is the most potent with magical properties for it nourishes life, which in turn supplies the soul. It can be used as a catalyst for casting or binding spells even in the raw state. The book failed to mention that some creatures are better for brewing than others. Ponies and dragons being the most potent ones of all. I drew a pot with Twilight and Spike bathing inside at the bottom of the page.

Chaos magic
This is the least understood magic branch—not because of its complexity but due to the lack of structure. There are many hypotheses as to what Chaos magic actually is.

I circled out the theory that was the least wrong and crossed out the other ones. The remaining one stated that Chaos Magic is magic in its most primal form. The arcane nature is not as smooth as some assume. It consists of fluctuations that may or may not form different structures within the field. By influencing the field in a certain way, one might produce a consistent effect from random fluctuations. A prime example of direct influence can be observed with the Spirit of Chaos—a Draconequus who has recently been unleashed on the world. Unfortunately, no books were written by the one known as Discord. At the time of publishing, he was still too stoned to shed any light on this elusive subject.

According to this theory, Chaos magic is the basis for every other magic branch. With a certain set of stimuli, one can produce a bulk effect of the field with some results being random, but majority obtaining an unvarying property usually referred to as the frequency of the channel.

It takes a special breed of creatures or ponies to spread out the main channels into more primal forms. Many master magicians try to fiddle with this magic but mostly abandon the studies due to lack of improvement in consistency. Casters experienced with Chaos magic can form powerful spells, but their degree of invariant is usually no better than with the castings by a novice. After experimentation phase, serious casters usually abandon the study in this field, for the same reasons they stay clear of emotional magic.

Teleportation
The teleportation spell avoids the random effects of the field manipulation by not directly affecting it. Instead, the spell merely establishes the appropriate conditions that activate the innate property of synchronized endpoints. The surrounding field can then, under such conditions, produce a predetermined magic event on its own.

The main focus of teleportation is the energy transfer of the original body by forming harmonic endpoints of the same vibration frequency of those at the starting area of the matter being transferred.

This process always leads to the loss of the original body, as interchanges between energy and matter fall under the consumption—creation type of transformation. The basic requirement of transformation between matter and energy is the preservation of magic amplitude.

With formed channels, the magic energies themselves can be transferred from starting points to the endpoints. This part of the spell is a mere classical magic transmission. Chaos magic comes into play in a matter to energy conversion at the start of the process and in the last phase with the reverse transformation.

A soft jerk to my sides woke me up from the trance I was in. My horn glowed. A dark purple aura seeped from the corners of my eyes.

“Sweetie, do you have an eraser...” a whisper came from beside me. “Um, you okay?”

“Hmm?” I looked at the concerned filly, sitting at the desk next to me. “You interrupted me, Twist!” I hissed at her.

“S—sorry. I just wansed zo borrow your eraser.”

A grin snuck on my lips as my channel forked at the tip of my horn. One part slung itself on her desk, while the other enwrapped my eraser within and without. Every curve of the channel was mirrored by the other. As the energies inside the eraser flared, the mass forming on Twist’s desk drained the magic from my channel. I snickered under my breath. “I’ve already lent it to you.”

“Whaz zo you mean?” She looked to her desk. “Oh... Sank you.”

My gaze shifted back to the magical knowledge in the book before me, pulling my mind along for the ride.

Copying of mass
Attempts of copying matter without losing the original body of mass have been reported to have some limited success. Those methods, however, involve an entirely different concept than teleporting.

The main idea behind copying is to set up an energy charged pool of vibrating higher states of potential magic fields. Those fields can then be harmonized with mirroring intermediate. The matter passing through such fields initiates a release of stored energy within them. The mirroring medium ensures that the frequency of the released energies matches the frequencies triggered by the passing matter through the field. Resulting magic-matter transfer process concludes in a subject of exact material properties as the original trigger of the effect.

Only matter can be transferred with this technique. Magic based properties of the transporting subject are absent in the copied matter.

Classical magic
The basic magic manipulation process used predominately by Unicorns and Alicorns.

In its simplest form, this magic does not produce any effects but merely transports magic energies from one point to another. By forming channels, innate magic produced with a horn can be transferred to the desired destination by conducting it through the formed channels. At the conclusion of channels (known as endpoints), the magic energies assume its original state.

The resultants of entropy magic (heat energy, kinetic energy or potential energy) are generally produced with the use of innate magic. In this creation process, the classical magic merely allows the transfer of the already formed effect to a destination, which differs from the point of formation.

The use of Classical magic is only partially connected to the innate magic because the channels themselves are magical in nature. After the channels are formed, the use of classical magic mostly uses the mindful focus of the channel-wielder. The potential focus is connected but not entirely set by the individual’s concentration and attention span abilities. The maximum limit of both is already determined at birth, yet immense training is required to make use of one’s full potential.

Innate spell amplifiers can influence the channels by methods of lengthening, connecting, disconnecting, shortening, forking, merging, spreading, weaving. The most common used are the former three because they’re the most intuitive and practical. This level of classical magic manipulation is achievable by most Unicorns. It allows for a basic, one item kinetic manipulation (levitation in its balanced form) by transferring kinetic energies formed with innate magic to the endpoints, connected to the manipulated item.

Expert magicians with an innate ability to form magic energies of different frequencies can form new instances by the means of channeling different wavelengths through multiple formed channels that merge at their midpoints. The range of frequencies available to the caster is, therefore, closely related to both classical magic abilities (number of channel connections) and their innate ability (number of different frequencies).

Alicorn magic
I drew two brackets beside the subtitle and wrote ‘Best magic. Yay!’ within them. My eyes rolled around, as a reaction to what I wrote, then continued skimming through the text.

In most channel mergers, the end result is a unified frequency ranging somewhere between the scales of the ones being fused. By choosing the correct combinations, one can achieve a disharmonious frequency conjunction superposition, forcing a negative reaction from all the channels involved. The resulting specific type of innate magic—Alicorn magic assumes a higher state, which is less reactive to the physical matter. Even the minuscule changes in the flows have substantial effect when used at the higher levels. As a consequence, the high state magic requires less focus for the same level of manipulation as would be otherwise mandated by the normal state magic energies.

The usage of higher level magic is not limited to Alicorns. Those are more capable of such high-level magic manipulation, but other races and even some creatures have the potential of weaving the synchronized frequencies. The formation of channel interference requires adept usage of both innate magic and expert usage of classical magic. Such degrees of magic capabilities are only rarely seen in Unicorns but are quite prominent with Alicorns.

When the higher resonance frequency is achieved, the effectiveness of all classical magic methods of channel manipulation is increased because even unsteady channels of this spectrum can transfer magic without significant losses.

Due to the channels specific reactiveness, this form of magic affects detection spells. Unlike with gem finding spells that respond to magic residues, crystals cannot be located via the usual detection spells. With Alicorn magic, however, the absorption properties of the crystals do interact via tunneling effect on the disharmonious channels. That negative energy reaction on the fields can be detected by the caster and, with triangulation, so too can the crystal.

I sighed. The book was lacking again. When talking about crystals, their magically assisted growth should at least be mentioned. I scribbled a segment about it at the bottom.

Elemental magic
Because of matter and force manipulation spells that it consists of, it’s often referred to as the nature magic. Achieving the elemental manipulation mostly comprises of different telekinesis usages, adjusted for the texture of the targeted matter: Earth, fire, water or air.

Despite the claims of some ignorant low-level magicians, hurling a fireball does not necessitate a presence of fire. With telekinetic friction, the needed heat can be produced on the spot.

Emotion
The book presented emotions as a special branch because of their spell-boosting effects. That was as ridiculous as saying a crutch helps you with walking. It’s only true if you’re a cripple, to begin with. Helping mages to overcome their inability to tap into their inner reserves should not be called boosting. Still, when one corners an enemy, emotions can run rampant in the prey. That usually hinders any last struggle that they could put up. However, if the emotional channels happen to resonate with the current spell, the power output could increase tenfold. That is why magic-wielding victims should never be underestimated. The book failed to mention this or any other practical examples. I illustrated the portrayed technical knowledge by drawing crumpled Twilight in a corner of the page and wrote ‘KILL WITHOUT DELAY!’ over her.

Usually, the conscious part of the brain is fully responsible for magic manipulation, but activating the emotional subconsciousness can potentially increase the flow of magic by an ample amount. Certain emotions open up only particular channels. For assistance with a current spell, you have to feel the right kind of emotion to increase its power. A wrong kind of feel can mess up the spell or annihilate it entirely. Emotions are fairly uncontrollable, making the use of this kind of magic unreliable.

The book also stated that emotions act as a catalyst to spells. That was plain wrong and it needed to get fixed. I scratched it out. Emotions merely open the parts of the brain that are normally dormant, which in turn can open up extra channels. No catalyzation involved!

The master casters usually try to hinder this magic, despite its potential. They learn to restrain the effects of emotions on the flow because in most cases the extra variable is detrimental to the spell. Limiting the varying factors in oneself allows the caster to perform magic with consistency and finesse.

Geometry magic
The shapes themselves do not produce a magic effect. They can, however, present a medium for magic to travel across.

Geometry magic is used as a compensation when classical magic cannot be supplied or as augmentation of classical magic when an ample amount of arcane flow needs to be transferred to an endpoint. Non-Unicorns use these techniques to simulate the effect of the magical channels as they can’t cast them on their own.

This magic type is one of the oldest. Evidence of its use can be found at the archaeological sites of ancient temples where some geometric configurations have been actively countering the spell’s decay for more than a millennium.

When forming and distilling spells, a mere circle shape is ineffective. However, it does provide the shortest magic traveling distance with the greatest field of effect. The inherent friction of the magic arises when its flow abruptly changes directions. The absence of edges preserves formed spells longer because it protects them from such decaying mechanisms, but it doesn’t add to the spell’s ramification. Mastery of geometric magic often relies on balancing the use of both principles in unison.

There were a few drawings of various geometric structures in the book. For instance, I thought that a few shapes reminded me of something similar I’d seen at Zecora’s, but I couldn’t force myself to visualize it. My mind just got hazy somehow when I tried. I skipped the pictures and continued skimming the text.

Some non-casting beings can master this technique allowing them the ability to cast spells. The process involves structuring complex symbols and medium paths where magic effect converge in a planned manner. An active presence of a member of a casting species can finalize the effect. If innate magic can’t be supplied, it can be substituted with magic prepared beforehoof in the form of runes.

The other name for this is ritualistic magic. I scratched that last statement because it was misleading. The expression Ritualistic magic came about from ignorant ponies who didn’t know the difference between useless rituals and intricate magic usage.

Innate magic
It is categorized as either active or passive based on its effects.

Plants usually harbor passive innate magic, while some animals, such as Unicorns and Alicorns, harbor active magic.

That’s just a rule of a hoof though. There are many exceptions, like plants with active effects. An example of that would be the truth flower or poison joke. On the opposite spectrum, there is the passive magic in Pegasi that helps them with flying and grants them the cloudwalking ability.

Earth ponies have innate magic as well, it just isn’t as clearly reflected.

I assumed the meaning behind that sentence was that with no innate magic presence, using Earth ponies for blood magic would yield no results. Earth ponies do, actually, harbor magic. The book didn’t mention it, but they can be just as potent as the other pony races if prepared properly. When alive, their innate magic also accounts for their increased physical capabilities by subconscious flash telekinesis that offers extra support to the muscle exertion motions.

Imbued magic
Certain simplistic spells can be sealed up in runes. Complex spells are only capable of imbuing an object for a short period of time. A workaround for that limitation is a construct of multiple runes, each holding a part of the spell with the proper geometry magic connecting them.

Imbued magic is used mostly by non-caster species and casters who wish to perform more lasting or complex effects.

Wards, totems and talismans fall in this category.

A growing agreement among casters is that necromantically raised beings could also fall under imbued magic, thus rendering the mostly unexplored necromantic branch as redundant. However, the mere existence of zombies is still disputed. Some of the reports of undead creatures could be sufficiently explained away by telekinetically imbued puppets or corpses.

“Hehe” That was clearly wrong. I didn’t know exactly where I got the information from, but I knew with my being that necromancy was just as valid a branch of magic as any other. I scratched over the faulty paragraph until it was illegible.

---

“Sweetie Belle, are you sure that book of yours is relevant to this subject?” Cheerilee approached my desk. “Are you even listening to me, filly? What did I just say?”

My heart thumped hard in my chest because I thought I would get scolded really bad for not paying attention. I was just about to say that I was really sorry when my muzzle started moving on its own, “You’ve made a claim that Pegasi create clouds, yet there is a natural process capable of midair condensation. It’s not conscious driven and lacks guided purpose, but it does suffice in lands that the winged ponies have not yet claimed.”

Where did that come from? I asked myself in my mind.

“Okay then, I was just—checking.”

Oh, no matter, she’s walking away.

---

Incantation
By itself, it is powerless because the sound contains no magic on its own. The air vibration can, however, resonate with magic imbued objects that are primed for certain words. Voice never adds anything to the offset of the medium holding the spell. The reason why casters sometimes artificially embed the verbal trigger is to prevent a misuse of the conjuration or an over-drain of the magic reserves.

Though the book failed to even mention it, there is a prime example of this magic. I wrote “The Mirror Pool” on the side of the page. You need to say certain words to trigger the copying effect.

Such a trigger is often used in spell books. By incantations, casters can see the structure and effect of a spell before they even acquire it. Recreating the spell after seeing it allows for faster learning.

Incantation is experimentally used in casting spells to trigger the emotion magic effect, but the results of that are inconsistent at best.

This entire branch falls under imbued magic, the incantation trigger merely increasing the chance of greater spell ramification.

Magic amplifier
A Unicorn’s horn allows for channeling and manipulation of magic. It is, however, far from the only mechanism for addressing the arcane. Some of the items that achieve similar results are not even physical in nature.

Various magic catalytic effects can be achieved by arcane means. These range from simple artificial channels to imbued spell amplifiers.

For practical reasons, spell amplifiers often take a form of necklaces and crowns. They mostly implement emotion generation magic that opens up unused emotional channels. The extended use of such items is not advised because emotions usually directly influence decision-making in pony population.

Some ponies are capable of isolating decision-making process from emotional influences. That technique, though effective, is even more controversial because the decrease of empathy affects morality.

There are rare items that incorporate their own innate magic into a catalytic effect. An example of such boosters are the Elements of Harmony.

Magic touch
Again, not a real branch of magic. The expression comes from self-taught casters who never learned the discipline of outward extending the channels. They form channels within their body. It is easier to conduct the energy along such channels than maintaining channels that traverse air or matter. Such energy transfer can only occur within the limits of one’s body and can be projected solely via direct contact.

Even master casters sometimes regress to this method when they intend to cast a more powerful curse or a lasting spell. All these spells could be cast at a distance, but with lower potential effect.

The cardinal yielding cortexes in Earth ponies are spread out and generally cannot be willfully focused. However, with dedication and practice, even Earth ponies can learn to manipulate this branch of magic. Zebras are also known to be able to use it. There are some speculations that their physiological affinity for it might be greater, however, the higher degree of magic users among zebras could also be attributed to their inherent cultural upbringing that is more intrinsic to manipulation of magic.

Vancian magic
Again, not a real branch of magic. It is merely a technique for stopping the final release of the cast spell. Mastering this technique allows the caster to prepare the majority of the spell in advance and hold it in an unshaped form, which is less prone to decomposition. The more complex the spell, the harder it is to retain the energies within its bounds. Recasting the decayed parts or preparing the structure of a spell in an optimized, and in turn, stable way ensures more deterministic and lasting effects.

The most complex spells can only be cast by Unicorns with less porous horns. The masters of this magic can even increase the power of their casting by reweaving the structure of the spell to keep it unchanging while gradually infusing the developing structure with extra energy. As long as the spell’s foundations remain stable, there is no upper limit to its ramifications. The higher the buildup, the stronger the burst.

Vancian magic is also used to teach Unicorns with porous horns the casting of more complex spells, which they could not master otherwise.

In practice, it’s often used for spells with complex foundations and easy formations. Even spells that are unstable by their very nature can be performed consistently when prepared in advance.

6131194
Just curious, but what exactly did you mean by "explain" in that context? Was that supposed to define the various schools of magic in your story or explain the actual mechanics of magic? I'm not sure what you were going for and can't quite decide whether I'd say it succeeds or only makes things more confusing.

6130455
A thing that many people focus on with magic systems and the like is that they have to figure it out. That they can. This is essentially power-gaming, and something I think that has come out of game systems where if you know the rules well enough you can escape on technicalities and make magic your bitch.

But, while in SOME settings magic could be explained further and may enrich the setting so much more because of that, and in SOME almost none at all, the one thing most people forget is this little rule:

Magic must remain magic.

Go too deep, explain it too much, set out every rule... and it's no longer magic. Magic should make you wonder, magic should be a half-tamed beast. Magic is Mystery. Otherwise you may as well just replace your fireball-totting wizard with Rambo or something. Heck, with that survival rate he's even more magical than some "wizards" in various settings. There's something in magic you cannot grasp, a source, a rule, a selection of who can do it... but there should be a few things that even the best look at them and go... "I dunno."

As you put it, Magic should boggle your mind.

Now, as for 6130725 and 6130736 argument, the problem, from what I read in the Sanderson books they mention (which I haven't read) seems to be that Sanderson in the ending went for... a wizard did it. Seriously, that reads like the classic Deux Ex Machina, where the wizard who did it just happens to be the protagonist. Resolutions that didn't come due to the protagonist's choices but because he happened to break that specific rule at that specific moment? Boooo!

Also, how is that specific magic system so good that I hear people raving about it? It seems to me he just replaced reagents with metals you put in your mouth. Not exactly mind-shattering.

6131252

Seriously, that reads like the classic Deux Ex Machina, where the wizard who did it just happens to be the protagonist. Resolutions that didn't come due to the protagonist's choices but because he happened to break that specific rule at that specific moment? Boooo!

Also, how is that specific magic system so good that I hear people raving about it? It seems to me he just replaced reagents with metals you put in your mouth. Not exactly mind-shattering.

Basically speaking, yes. A good part of my annoyance probably comes from the story resolution just plain not living up to the hype his fandom has built up around Sanderson and feeling a bit irrationally cheated by the whole experience.

6131252
This is the essence of what I’ve heard about Game of Thrones and Lord of the Rings versus many other pieces of fantasy. In GoT in particular it’s very noticeable. Everything is established very carefully, except magic, which we know almost nothing about.

imE it works rather well. If you want your magic to feel magical, it seems to be best not to explain it at all. Though that doesn’t mean there is no place going into the opposite direction, it’s just a different thing, then.

6130428
Tech stuff inside of science fiction stories is kinda hand waving too.

I fire my laser pistol at you!
Oooh, my Hardlight Interferon field blocked it!

I squirt toxins at you!
Oooh, my DNA level nanites have already repaired my cellular damage!
Whatchu got now?

I've used a tachyon beam to go back to the past and kill your parents! Hello? Where are you?

Star Trek does this stuff all the time.
Unless you're rolling like an Asmiov or Heinlein and can add real world info to a story.

In MLP, they don't go over the magic system because of the purpose of the show.
The only rule I've seen is that doing magic takes a bit of work and can wear out a character.
It's not effortless. You see that in Boast busters and the one where they go to the rainbow factory. Rarity got the pretty wings and everypony else got the cloud walking spell because the wing spell was too much work.

Tolkien doesn't explain any of his magic. Folks talk about Gandalf and yeah, he's important.
What about Galadriel or Arwen or the other people in the story? No explanation.
Oh, Arwen is an elf.
Galadriel is a really old elf and she has a magic ring.

What about Tom Bombadil?
The ring couldn't stand him!

This sounds like make a world with consistent rules and don't break them unless necessary.

Oh yeah, also, don't spend so much time with the magical rules that other parts of the story suffer.
I bet that is a real danger.

Hard or soft magic?
It's the writer's choice.

6131259
Credit where it's due, I found the way they refer to The Others as simply.... well, The Others to be a great stylistic choice, even if it is not original in how it is done here. It makes those undead more mysterious, more mythical, more, more, more. They work great as a magic example done right if you think about it. We know they MIGHT be creating more of themselves in some way that involved male babies, but we don't know more. We know that they can be hurt only by Valyrian Steel and Dragonglass. Why? Because Dragon Glass has some kind of connection with the dragons which are creatures of fire(and remember, their eggs were thought to have become stone with age which was clearly not the case) and thus they burn them. Valyrian Steel works because they were made with magic in Ancient Valyria, and we know that they used to be swarming with dragons and know how to use them. But underneath all that? Not so much. We got a few rules and answers, but not much more than that. Martin went deeply enough into them to know some things, but not all. Now what to explain, and what not. Play with disambiguation, with simple questions where both might be true. Do The Others bring the cold with them for instance, or do they go where it's colder? It's a question that has all the thrill that magic is supposed to bring, and it is done excellently.

And then we ignore all that to see Khaleesi do a queen tutorial for a year, half a world away.

6131324
And this kind of summary is why I think ASOIAF would be amazingly fun to read, if only it was written by someone else entirely.

6130428
I don't know what this means?

6131252

One of the best examples of that that I've encountered is Stephen R. Donaldson's "Chronicles of Thomas Covenant". He has two types of magic, the "nature magic" which is the subject of a lot of study and practice and resembles a form of science, the "magic A is magic A" principle; and the "wild magic" which is uncontrollable, chaotic, and intuitive, and which uses the characters as much as it is used by the characters. It's never explained because it cannot be explained.

6131259
Despite the constant complaints that magic is never defined in LotR, it actually is, but indirectly, if you pay attention to the small details. It's explained more explicitly, though still somewhat indirectly, in The Sillmarillion; and essentially comes down to a generally subtle form of divine intervention, derived from Roman Catholic theology (Tolkien being a staunch Roman Catholic).

6130428

I attack you with a fireball!

I'm immune to fire!

I use poison!

I'm immune to poison!

I turn the air around you into an unbreakable crystal that is immune to magic, trapping you forever.

...Shit.

That's what you get for over-specializing.

You can make your magic more real by adding more answers to any question that starts with 'why.'

Eeeeh. I don't know if I really agree. Or rather, I don't know if making magic as realistic and comprehensible as possible necessarily makes it better.

As I see it, the important thing is that you are consistent about how your magic works, even if you don't bother establishing a rigid, clearly defined system ahead of time. It's fine to invent a way for magic to solve a problem if it benefits the story, and it's even more fine to invent a way for magic to cause a problem if it benefits the story, but once you've done either of those things you can't take it back. It means you just established rules for how your magic works and you'll have to keep that in mind for the rest of the story.

For example, we know that Rarity has a spell that can repair broken objects. It's never given much attention and was probably just something the writers made up on the spot, but that is in and of itself not a bad thing because it doesn't contradict anything we already knew. However, if later something breaks at a critical moment, Rarity can't just conveniently forget that she knows that spell simply because the plot demands it. That's inconsistent, which makes it bad writing.

The only options are to make sure Rarity isn't around or otherwise incapable of repairing the object for a specific reason or write the story so that it doesn't rely on something breaking or - and this is the most preferable one, I believe - writing the story so that Rarity knowing that spell is a plot point, rather than negating one.

Why Rarity knows that spell and how it works is, at least in my opinion, not especially interesting and probably easy to guess from the context anyway: Rarity knows that spell because it's incredibly useful, especially for anyone who works in any kind of crafting field, so if that spell does exist it makes perfect sense she would learn it. And explaining how it works isn't necessary because regardless it's totally consistent with the way MLP magic works in general. The only time you really need to explain that stuff is, again, when it becomes directly relevant to the plot and makes for better storytelling.

I don't necessarily agree entirely with Sanderson's Laws of Magic, at least the way they are usually worded. That said, I do largely agree that it's much easier to define magic by what it can't do, as opposed to what it can do. Even so, I don't think it's always necessary to explain the limitations in detail. If you have a character who is a powerful magician, the limitations of that magic will probably become mostly apparent by the way that character uses it.

Case in point, we know Twilight Sparkle is very powerful, but the limits of her abilities are never clearly defined except in certain instances. (Like the fact that she is incapable of performing an age spell.) Even individual spells work by this principle: Her teleportation spell being a great example. We know Twilight can teleport, and that she finds it so useful she casually does it all the time. However, she never teleports especially far, which tells us that no matter how good she is at magic, that spell has a limited range. We don't know exactly what that range is, but it's apparent she can't just jump from Ponyville to Canterlot (which should be a couple of kilometers at least) because there have been times where that would have saved her a lot of trouble. And as long as the writers stay consistent about what Twilight's teleportation can and can't do, the details don't add much to the story.

On that note, however, it must be said that explaining the magic system can still be relevant if doing so is central to the plot. MLP doesn't have to mind that nearly as much because it's actually about making friends, not the intricacies of magic. But if I am, for example, writing a story where the protagonist goes from not knowing any magic at all to becoming a full-fledged magician, I'm probably going to want to explain at least some of how the magic works as that character is learning about it. (In fact, if I think the Harry Potter series has a weakness, it's that for a story that focuses entirely on a guy learning magic at a magic boarding school, it mostly sorta glosses over how exactly magic is taught.)

Still, that doesn't mean magic can't be mostly a Black Box, because knowing how to do something isn't actually the same thing as understanding the mechanics of that something. The magician really just needs to know what magic can do and what it can't do - that certain actions have certain set results - not why that is. The rules of magic can be completely obscured, just as long as they're there.

6131233

Just curious, but what exactly did you mean by "explain" in that context?

Gandalf just knew magic. It's not even explained properly what kind of being he is. To me, it felt as if he was just thrown in the world without much of a back-story. He didn't really fit. The world would actually be more consistent if he didn't exist.

Was that supposed to define the various schools of magic in your story or explain the actual mechanics of magic?

Both. I hate it when authors just wave a hand saying, "It's magic, I ain't gotta explain shit." That's why I went the opposite route and explained it.

6131380 Much of this is also used in the novel, so it's not just useless info dump. But yes, I may have overcompensated a bit and went too far with it.

6132074

Gandalf just knew magic. It's not even explained properly what kind of being he is. To me, it felt as if he was just thrown in the world without much of a back-story. He didn't really fit. The world would actually be more consistent if he didn't exist.

Well, he is pretty much the Ur-Example of the Mysterious Old Wizard... but I have to admit that you still have a point there anyway. Gandalf isn't ever given any real explanation or backstory within the scope of the LOTR trilogy itself and doesn't really make any sense as a character, unless you read the secondary background materials. There are a number of unexplained mystery characters in the trilogy like Tom Bombadil, but those are bit players and intentionally kept mysterious to give the story a bit of that "epic poem" flavour. Gandalf and the rest of wizards, on the other hand, have a major role in the plot, but no proportionate amount of character background to really tie them into the setting, so they just end up looking like a weird anomaly.

Both. I hate it when authors just wave a hand saying, "It's magic, I ain't gotta explain shit." That's why I went the opposite route and explained it.

Well, it's certainly comprehensive, very nice and sciency sounding. Good job. I'm afraid I'll have to say that it still kind of suffers from that whole "infinite regression" problem Lightwavers mentions in the OP, though. There are more than a few entries that end on what feels rather like a very sharp cut, not because all questions are answered and everything makes sense now, but rather because that's simply where you stopped writing it.

6132139 I could go deeper in every category, but then it really would turn into an info-dump. I wanted to cover all of the major schools of magic and the gist of each one. It's written in a stream of consciousness mode, so things do get a bit choppy at times.

6132928
I did something similar once, though I did it as part of a joke, and it wasn't really explaining anything. More of a dig on academic way of writing and semi-explanation on why magic tomes are so thick.

"What is this supposed to mean? 'Recreation of a matrix of the designated approach point in a mark two out of five of the available minutia specification range is required before the coalition of the esoteric arcane energy in the individual foci.' I mean… what?”

“What is this about?” Shining Armor asked.

“It’s the theory on teleportation spells. I can’t make heads or tails out of-”

“It means visualize where you want to go, without much detail, before focusing your magic on your horn.”

Raegdan stared at Shining Armor with an expression of pure disbelief. “You lie!”

6130428

I don't think that coming up with a bunch of rules helps creating a better magic system.
Why does the magical rainbow defeat Nightmare Moon? Because it's made of friendship and Nightmare Moon is made of jealousy and resentment, and friendship fixes that sort of thing.
It's rather forced, because the thought that went behind it is rather forced, but the system works and makes sense.

Magic is nothing but a metaphor or an hyperbole of something real that you want to represent, you don't need to come up with any random, pseudological rule (unless your story actually needs this sort of thing) because the reader is going to understand the meaning of your magic anyway, even if subconsciously.

6132928

In one of my fics, the fact that teleportation is a Black Box is a plot point - Twilight knows the spell is safe but she's still nervous about casting it for the first time because nobody has been able to figure out how it works.

On the other hand, the story I'm working on now is more of a long term "main character gets magic lessons" type so I'm going at it in a different way. The simplest type of magic can be done without understanding the principles behind it: For example, alchemy just requires you to know that mixing certain ingredients results in a given potion, and the magic that earth ponies and pegasi use are mostly subconscious or instinctual.

However, the more advanced the spell is, the more the magician needs to understand it - deliberate teleportation requires you to think about space in a certain way, for instance. The most advanced spells are so abstract they basically require a kind of intuitive, transcendental insight, either from ages of contemplation or a major epiphany. At that point it's actually closer to philosophy than science.

I did something similar once, though I did it as part of a joke, and it wasn't really explaining anything. More of a dig on academic way of writing and semi-explanation on why magic tomes are so thick.

In one of my fics, the fact that teleportation is a Black Box is a plot point - Twilight knows the spell is safe but she's still nervous about casting it for the first time because nobody has been able to figure out how it works.

I actually spent an hour or two this evening trying to figure out what exactly the mathematical basis for aiming a teleport would be, if we could do it. Turns out it's both more and less complicated than it sounds. It pretty much requires nothing but basic multiplication, applied to a 7-dimensional transformative matrix that you use to to a rotational Lorentz transformation on a spherical approximation of your current coordinates in four-dimensional spacetime.

The difficult part is actually getting that matrix, because you basically have to do it all in reverse from the coordinates of your destination as the the solved equation and then deriving the unknowns that would give you that result to actually feed into the spell.

Yeah, I wouldn't like having to do that in my head. Let's not even talk about the problems involved when you teleport without a timed delay and accidentally end up breaking special relativity because you went faster than light as far as your reference frame is concerned. Basically, you always have to slightly time-travel into the future or boom.

6130428
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Likewise, any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from technology.

6132074
Literally PM Meep the Changeling. He has an entire system that I don't know even 10% the extent of. He does a lot of this, he's even created a realistic could-be-real topographical map with nations for Equestria, including a backstory for it all, and vastly different regions and history.

6133359

Yeah, see, Twilight kept thinking the same way, and even pointed out that the spell is too safe - there's never been any injuries or disasters even during accidental teleportation, which is kinda strange. And though they couldn't quite discern the mechanics, the spell didn't even seem to have anything to do with traveling anywhere.

Of course, turns out it did something completely different than Twilight expected it too.

6133362

I prefer the shonen manga version: "Sufficiently hot-blooded determination is indistinguishable from magic."

6133364 Yeah, I know of him. That guy's on a whole new level.

6133405
Yeah. I regularly PM him with my worldbuilding ideas and just discussing stuff in general.