So, this just happened to me.

Let me make something abundantly clear right off the bat. This is a case of being disrespectful and undermining effort.

So the other week I had a dude come to me wanting a commission. Alright, great, I get a bit of pocket money. After giving me an idea to write and finishing writing 4000 words of that idea, it was completed and ready for publishing. By this stage I already had three people edit and proofread the story, after completing what the dude wanted.

Yes, getting to the point. When the dude went back through the document, he wanted me to cut 1000 words and re-write just as much. Ok, yeah, that's a rather annoying thing to deal with, but here's the kicker. After replying to his comments with compromises, he basically ordered me to "Do as I'm told."

Yeah... No. Dude, you have absolutely NO IDEA how disrespectful that is. Firstly, you absolutely DO NOT tell someone to "Do as they are told.", completely regardless of whether or not you've asked someone to write for you. It completely undermines the effort of the people that have spent writing, editing, and proofreading.

Now I have to send three PMs to the people that have given their assistance on this fic and apologize to them that their efforts have been for naught.

Jesus fucking christ I'm still reeling from the disrespect.

3859521

Yeah, I get your point haha

Hopefully it didn't annoy you too much, I'd hate for that to happen

It's more of a public service announcement I guess.

3859514
"I pay my taxes and they pay your salary! So get to work, keyboard-monkey!"

Nyah. Nice guy.
This is what happens when you combine someone who has no power in their life and a desperate need for dominance with the really stupid and incorrect phrase 'The customer is always right'.

Instant power-boner. Just add pathetisadness.

3859521
You'd be surprised how many smart people are jerks. All the knowledge inflates their heads.

3859537

Is writing not art?

Also, writing may be "easy," but writing well is not.

3859514 Did you delete the story? You should publish it... It seems like a good story.

3859537

writing is easy

Thanks. Needed a good laugh.

If writing was easy, we wouldn't need editors. If writing was easy, we wouldn't need a downvote button. If writing was easy, I'd be giving my stamp of approval to many more Royal Guard submissions.

Sure, anyone can write, but that doesn't mean it's easy.

3859542

I didn't delete it, no. I messaged Obselescense, a moderator, and asked him whether or not I am able to publish the story with the idea not originally being mine. Essentially finding a way to publish it without putting me into any hot water about the idea not being my own, but the end product is after all the effort

3859544

Writing is easier, at least as far as "equipment obstacles" go. The only thing you need to create a piece of prose is a surface to write it on (or carve it into). In fact, sometimes it's even enough to use your voice and just tell the story. The same can't be said for (most of) music or visual arts, since they require more complex tools and mechanisms, which is why they tend to be more pricey.

However, this is not to say that either is "easier" than the other. Overall, a good book still beats a painting that has nothing to say, even if the latter is otherwise well-crafted.

3859514
>do as I tell you
Yeah, this guy could offer me a small fortune and I would still tell him to fuck off if I was in your boots. This is not something one sane, decent adult says to another, unless you're in the military or it's your mom. What an autist.

Normally I don't think putting people on blast like this is the right thing to do, but in this situation you're fully justified.

Also, I hope you still get to publish the story.

3859553 I hope you post it. It would be such a waste...

3859564

Yeah, he's an incredible tool for having said that.

I don't know why you equated that to autism either haha. I'm autistic and I have the decency and respect not to say that to someone

I hope I still get to, too.

3859514
So you're complaining about a paying customer wanting something they're putting their own money into to live up to they're expectations?

Are you high?

3859574

No, I'm complaining about someone that disrespected me and undermined the effort of four people. Also, I wish I was high, haven't had a good joint in ages.

3859576
Maybe when he pays you you'll have decent weed money.

3859514

If he does that, simply refuse to write for him!

Better yet, just simply write a story based on the subject that he has given but ask for nothing more. Either he will accept what has been written or suck it up.

3859586

I've blocked him and moved the gdoc for the story to a different URL so he can't get at it.

3859514
Has this guy NEVER seen suited for success?
[Insert grumbling and angry rant about respecting the authors and their job. I mean seriously dude, do you know the amount of work it takes to make a story DECENT AND PLAUSI--]

3859593

I mean seriously dude, do you know the amount of work it takes to make a story DECENT AND PLAUSI--

Considering I have 13 stories, yes I do.

3859514 I'm sure in the back of your head you knew that this was inevitable, but reading the situation from your perspective, you probably took more control of the project than he wanted you to.

You probably should have showed the guy what you had written once you hit the 4000 word mark before getting it proofread. I understand why you didn't, but he might just be a little frustrated that you didn't check in him with him first. (Micromanaging little prick.)

My advice is to just do what the guy wants so there isn't any bad blood between you two and the next time simply ask your customers if they want to take a look before enlisting proofreaders.

It'll save a lot of people time.

3859597

I wrote more or less exactly what he wanted to. Also, the perk of having commissioned me means anyone gets the link to the gdoc to make suggestions for edits. He went through it about three times previous to this and only now did he want me to change everything. That does not mean you demand me to axe and rewrite 1000 freaking words.

What he wanted me to do was bend over backwards for him, and I'm not willing to do that if I've already spent a week writing when I've got my job and other stuff to worry about. It's a matter of disrespect, that guy should not have equated my being with some kind of slave in saying "Do what I tell you."

Don't you just hate those people that tell you to do EVERYTHING and then take credit for parts that they didn't do and continue to f^ck up when presenting the final part to whoever you need to submit it to?

3859599

He went through it about three times previous to this and only now did he want me to change everything.

Oh, so he was already watching you? Well that was entirely his fault then, if I were you I wouldn't sweat it.

3859514 Just tell him: look, you want this story I'm writing right now, or do you want a crappy version of the story you want?
And I also suggest he watches art of the dress again.

3859540

Also, writing may be "easy," but writing well is not.

That sentence is a work of art. It is impossible to contradict it without sounding like a pretentious dick.
3859543

Well what do I call the other art then?

I think saying "art is hard" really depends on where a person's talent lies. For me, composing music or drawing or painting I would find insanely difficult. Writing I find relatively easy. Others may find writing to be very hard, but drawing to be easy.
3859544

If writing was easy, we wouldn't need editors. If writing was easy, we wouldn't need a downvote button.

Definitely. I would never suggest that writing was objectively easy. The term "easy" is highly subjective anyway, because it is a combination of two variables. One being the task at hand and the other being the skill of the worker. The combination of these would indicate whether that worker found the task to be easy or hard.
3859549

it's still a bloody pie.

Now that's some frightening imagery right there.

3859593

Has this guy NEVER seen suited for success?

Man now that's a damn good point. Part of me sometimes forgets the root of this fandom, simply due to the sheer number of people who have no freaking clue how to live out the principles taught in the show itself - and taught in such a simplistic way that even a six year old can get it. That one gets my own facehoof.

3859593
Damn. I was gonna say this, but you beat me to it.

3859514
But yeah, as someone who does art commissions and as someone who has paid for fanfic commissions, here's something that customers should know: when you commission someone, it is true you are paying them to do something that you asked them for and that you will want it a certain way, but you still have to place a certain amount of trust in the artist/author's decisions in creating the work. When you pick an artist or writer to do a commission for you, you pick them because you like their style and want to see them apply it to an idea that you have? How can they do that when you're trying to make them totally uproot parts of the work? You have to be aware of how much time it takes to change things. Axing and rewriting 1000 words is no easy task, especially when you are writing for someone else.

From the looks of the notes, these seem like changes that could've been made early on on development, and since you were smart and gave the commissioner access to the story during development, there wasn't really much else you could do, so I don't blame you for being upset.

I have yet to encounter a customer like this, and even though I'm pretty sure it will happen someday, I hope it doesn't. As they say: expect the worst, hope for the best.

My advice for this situation is this... Treat him like everypony treats Blueblood, just completely ignore him.

3859635

I think the equivalence holds mostly because skilled writing is rare, just like skilled drawing is rare. You mentioned how anyone can pick up a pencil and write. Anyone can pick up that same pencil and draw. I have a seven year old daughter who can definitely draw better than she can write. But then again what seven year old can write for beans anyway? At least they can do stick figures.

Judging from some of the stories on this site, many of them demonstrate a phenomenal lack of understanding of the principles of good storytelling. Sure they can pick out words on a keyboard and they have more or less a concept of an event driven story at least. They figured out how to operate the site's publishing buttons. But writers, they are not. On the other hand, there are writers out in the world who make pretty much all of us look like elementary school writers.

What's interesting is that often people cannot tell the difference in quality after a certain point. The bulk of the population may be entirely incapable of even recognizing quality writing, and so they simply lump it all together at the top rank of their standards. This goes for most things. For example, anyone can cook. Many can cook well. But then there's those Master Chef people who get into these intense competitions and are judged by people who can detect subtle nuances that you and I wouldn't likely even notice. These are connoisseurs. I myself have noticed that my standards have been raised since I started writing in September. I can barely watch a Michael Bay film anymore without groaning constantly and wanting to facepalm so much as to risk bruising my nose. Why is this? It's because bad writing shows up so much more easily now after having gotten into writing myself.

So yes, anyone can write, but then again anyone can draw. It is writing well and drawing well which are difficult. Perhaps what you have noticed is that more people per capita have learned the skill of writing than the skill of drawing, simply because writing is an extension of a critical skill in today's society. It was not always so. Remember 150+ years ago how rare it was to even be educated enough to read. Yet those same people were likely skilled at some trade or another.

3859635

There are no rules to writing, to art and music there are so many rules that can make either music work and art reasonably presentable, writing, you pick up a pen and go wild.

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with this here. I write, I do visual art, and I make music, and for me they are all equally challenging.

This is something I've given no small amount of thought to, and there is something I've realized:

Writing seems easier, because we all know the basics. From the moment we can hold a pen, we are taught to write. Most people, by the time they're adults, know how to write down words so well that it's second nature to them. Imagine if people communicated solely through pictures or music. If that were the case, we'd all be taught from an early age how to draw pictures or play notes, and those things would seem easy to us. Writing seems easy because we must acquire a basic grasp of it in order to function in this society, but that's all it is - a basic grasp. Writing as a tool and writing as art are two completely different things. Being able to bang out words on a keyboard as I am now, and being able to elegantly and meaningfully communicate an idea with words are not one in the same. It's the same thing with music - there's a difference between playing a sequence of notes, and being able to play those notes with the timing and phrasing required to make them sound beautiful.

Music and visual art have no more or less rules than writing does, but the difference is that the average person knows a lot more of the basic rules of writing than either of the other two. This creates the illusion that writing is easy, because we can all do a little bit of it, whereas most people don't even know how to strum a guitar or draw a human figure. So yeah, I think writing, on a base level, is easier simply because we all already know how to type words, but writing competently is just as difficult as playing a song or painting a picture.

3859635

There are no rules to writing, to art and music there are so many rules that can make either music work and art reasonably presentable, writing, you pick up a pen and go wild.

There are no rules to writing... that isn't even close to the truth.

3859549 Caviar and Venison would make a terrible pie.

3859635 Negative ghost rider.
1. Technically I can sit down and still draw stick figures and it's still a drawing.
2. I can sit there and play my flute or guitar and it still be considered music.
3. Just the same as I can sit here and type these words and it be considered writing.
I'm not saying writing is harder than either but do you ever wonder why there are a lot of famous singers who don't write their own music?
Writing has a lot of annoying traits, one that gets me is keeping up with all the events that happened 30000 words back so everything sits right. Kinda like killing off a character way back when but suddenly he/she has a line? Just an example.
Or the sheer imagination it takes to write a novel.
No offense to you of course... Just giving you my opinion.

3859595
I was talking to the person wanting a commission, but... yeah... I'm not sure how it is for everypony else, but between figuring out how characters would react to something and how to plausibly set story events into motion... Well, it's been about a month for me and I'm still in the development stages.

Sorry if I offended you, mate.

3859904
>implying one needs to learn english to write a story in their native tongue

Also, writing is not art? Tell that to J.R.R Tolkien, J.K Rowling and Stephen King, among others.

3859514 The nerve of that guy is truly astounding. Fuck 'em.

3859638

And I meant art as in drawing, the only true art.

What the actual hell...

He is either lazy or a complete idiot when it comes to writing. People, when you're asking someone to write your idea into a story, be nice about it. After all, the author of your commission has worked very hard only to be disrespected. And I'm referring to the guy who dissed you, Alcatraz.

3859904

Ok, you need a basic understanding of the English language, but anyone with an imagination and a knowledge of language can sit down and write a story.

By that same logic, anyone can bang on the drums or strum a guitar and call it a song. Anyone could throw paint onto a canvas and call it art.

3860026
Nowadays there are some paintings that are exactly that. Paint buckets thrown at a canvas and selling the end result for millions.

3859514
Hey
HEY
I DIDN'T TELL YOU THAT YOU COULD MAKE A THREAD ABOUT THIS
NOW GIVE ME MY GOD DAMNED STORY, YA JER-
Oh, hello guys and girls! Lemon here! I, uh... didn't see you all there. Me and my buddy Alcatraz here were just discussing the story he is kindly writing for me. Hahaha! Happy, happy, happy! Lemon joke! Haha! Backrubs! Yay! Look at you all laugh!

I swear to God, Alcatraz, you'd better have my story on my desk by noon tomorrow...

3860057
Yeah, that thought did cross my mind when I was writing that.

I had a similar situation over the summer with someone looking to commission a portrait from me. The pay was good but even before I began they starting turning into a tyrant. I went into art for the enjoyment of it, If I cant get enjoyment from my work, then its not worth doing no-matter the pay.

3859904

3859615
3859638

The age old struggle to determine what is craft versus what is art continues....

Writing can be art just as a drawing can, at times, not be. It depends on the intent of the craftsman and/or artist as well as the perception of the viewer. At times, both the viewer and artist/craftsman are in agreement, but not always.

In terms of media, art is not limited to a brush or a pencil.

3859514
Understand leading in that I don't approve of the attitude and, for the vast majority of people who would face this kind of thing, I would back you a hundred percent. The difference and the reason I write this is to put out something I feel is necessary for some people to hear and, even then, only after they crossed a certain line and did it, well, ignorantly to be kind about it. That line: money.

So... I'm going to be the ass who says this, and I apologize, but: What in the ever-loving hell were you expecting? Also, however much you may want to debate this, you were the one who broke the contract, not him. If you have any dreams or hopes of doing this professionally, what you just did is a career ending stunt if it happened in a professional setting. Or if you provide anything you wrote here as evidence of ability and they stumble across this.

I'll ask a simple question: Before beginning, was there any discussion concerning pacing, flow, timeline, events, etc? Did you get an outline confirmed as acceptable? Not a pitch, but the solid outline. Did you agree to the content and form of it?

Did you discuss how to go about changes after writing?

Fun fact: You did. I don't care what you two discussed, you did. From your blog concerning these: "You get access to the gdoc file to make suggestions as you see fit. You are paying for it so you get to make the decisions." First two sentences.

Whether or not the guy was an ass (and, okay, fine, I'll grant) is irrelevant, honestly. He was making use of something not only agreed upon during negotiations, but that you put forward as part of your sales pitch. It's due diligence.

The fact that your proof readers did work for a broken commission? That's not on him, that's on you. Real world, they completed their end, but you didn't complete yours for the client. You pay them out of pocket. I'll assume they're friends who did work to help you get paid out of the goodness of their hearts, which is nice of them.

Still on you.

I'm sorry to say it this way, but it's your fault they're involved. Not his.

We can have the arguments about art and integrity until the cows come home, but here's the boiled-down truth of the matter: Once money came into it, you stopped being an artist (in the ideological point of view) and became a craftsman, at best. You, in a very literal and real sense, agreed to do as you're told.

Compromises, well, fair enough and certainly something you want to discuss, but you yourself declared in writing that he was calling the shots. Crap story, well, yes, sounds like it, but that's what you agreed to do. The only way to have integrity on this is to return the money and delete the story, or at least never release it.

I get that you worked hard on it, but same answer. Otherwise, you're declaring, remarkably openly and loudly, that you don't actually want commissions, but rather you want to be paid to write the stories you were going to write anyway and that you'll throw a fit if anyone so much as tries to get what they paid for.

Actually accurate? Meh. That part's irrelevant, it's what you just did.

I'll repeat in that, assery aside, you broke the deal, you got your friends involved and you set yourself up for that fall. If you want to play with money, either get stuff down on paper with signatures, or accept that things will break down sometimes and that you need to take those on the chin. Don't expect that everyone is going to come to you with reverence, even if you advertise that your work will often feature (quibble about that as you will) and that everyone will be on super nicey-nice, bestest behaviour. Hope for it, but don't expect it.

Also, word to the wise: "Failure to pay will result in a big "Fuck You" and the material scrapped and used in any other way I see fit." When you make the in-progress story available to the guy who you're expecting to pay in a copy-pastable format they have access to all the time and you only get payment after. Don't have another option for you, but brilliant.

3859638 Hm, picture art is the only true art?

art1
noun
noun: art; plural noun: arts; plural noun: the arts
1. the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination

Yeah, not buying it. Art is an expression of ones imagination. Writers like Tolkien and Douglas Adams are just as much artists as Leonardo da Vinci and Rembrandt. You can slap together three thousand words and call it writing, but someone can throw a couple of paints onto a canvas and call it art just as well. Both are a form of art in their own ways. Writing is expressing ones imagination, as is painting. Both qualify as art.

3859899 Drawing poorly and playing music poorly is just as easy as writing poorly.
Writing well can be just as hard as drawing well or playing music well.

3860316 Hi, someone who has worked in contract industries for the better part of fifteen years here.

I will start by saying this: in no legally sound jurisdiction in any part of the world is a contract considered binding to the point of enslavement. I don't care if money was involved, it is the right of either party to terminate a contract if the conditions are onerous and unfair. In this instance, the client was being abusively unfair. A producer does not have to "do as he is told". The client can negotiate, propose, suggest and discuss with the producer to reach an agreement. They don't have the right to dictate.

It's also a generally held legal principle that onerous or unfair terms in a contract are not binding on any party. If I agree a contract with you that says I will slice off my hand if certain conditions are not met, those terms are not legally enforceable no matter how much money is involved. If We sign a contract that states you get to tell me what to do and I'm not allowed to object, then again the contract is not enforceable - those ters are considered onerous.

But all that aside, an agreement and money changing hands are not excuse to be an abusive bully. The client in this case was not being a client - they were being a bully, and a dickhead to boot.

I have, in the past, walked away from signed legal contracts after similar treatment. It's a simple matter of integrity: am I willing to allow someone to dictate and bully without negotiation merely because they put money in my pocket? The answer is equally simple: no. If they try, then they have their money returned and I leave. They can find someone willing to be their boot licker and I am free to pursue other work in which I will be treated fairly.

Because, you seem, in those same legally sound jurisdictions, absent express termination clauses, it is the law that a contract may be terminated by any party with reasonable notice. Given the conditions of this particular contract, reasonable notice is "immediately if not sooner", because the client was a cunt.

3860316 Yes. This. If you agree to do work for money, then you are signing over your right to do what you want. If you want to reserve the right to do what you want, then that needs to be in the terms you clearly establish at the beginning. If you didn't do that, then tooooooooo bad, you get to do what you're told. Bad clients are a dime a dozen, and idiots are even cheaper. If you don't take steps to protect yourself against them, then it's on you.

3859514