A clop story without actual clop?

Somber why do you hurt me so?

That was an incredible story to read.
Bit short for my liking, but probably the right length for it.

7015116
I actually like the way it went better.

7015116 It started out as a Twiluna clop story but the content became way more serious and dramatic for just sex. I dunno. If enough folks want it, I might do a NSFW version with graphic content.

The featured box shall tremble. This is amazing, as always, I'm waiting for more

This NEEDS to be featured.

Ok.

Eh. On the fence about this one. It kinda just comes across as a weighty, expository headcanon dump representing a sainted, blameless woobie Luna, who comes at the cost of hacking down poor Celestia to some subtle tyrant.

We're seriously not tired of these fics? How many times are we going to dance this tango?

At the same time I do like your dialogue for Luna and Twilight. It's nice how natural it felt considering its expository nature. And it's a unique headcanon, but that doesn't change the fact that this entire fic is just ''Explaining Stuff: The Story".

The image showed a montage of the three fighting skeletons, ghosts, and monsters, and the three sisters overcoming them with Terra smashing skeletons with her hooves, Luna banishing the ghosts with radiant magic, and Luna flying circles around the bat winged monstrosity.

I think one of those Lunas might be a Celestia?

Found this to be a decent read, although I normally am not a big fan of evil Celestia, this was more like, prude conservative Celestia and overly hedonistic Luna and really horrible communication between them.

I credit the attempt of turning a pretty fairy-taleish backstory into something more fleshed out.

I really like the concept for this story. I hope you figure out how to continue it.
Maybe have Twilight talk to Terra about Celestia? Terra could have heard the sides of both Celestia and Luna's children and followers that were sealed away about what happened and how Celestia is/was.

7015606 Thank you for the heads up. Fixed. Also, Celestia isn't evil, nor is she good. That's essentially what Luna's point was: blind trust and blind love can turn around and bite you in the butt when "the power of love" really exists.

7015569 Where did you get that Luna was blameless? Luna admits she did wrong by her sister, just as her sister did wrong by her.

7015638 You have Luna say that but just because she says it doesn't change the fact that you made it blatantly clear that Celestia is unrealistically cruel and the sole problem. She's a hypocritical, conservative, classist prude who cracks down on poor ponies, tries to take away the one thing that gives Luna a sense of purpose, and manipulates ponies into basically disliking her sister. And then you implicitly state that in the present she is using subtle fear tactics to make sure her intentions remain the norm. I mean one look at the title of the fic speaks it all.

On the occasion that Luna's actions are "bad," they are instantly justified anyways. And are a direct response to something Celestia did that was also bad.

The result is the same Mary Sue, victimized woobie Woona that these fics usually produce.

Sorry if I sounded harsh. I didn't mean to. Just not really a story for me. Honestly I think the problem here is the length of the story: it might benefit from being longer, and perhaps letting us into Celestia's head, too.

By the Great Old Ones... There has to be more... The internet needs more I need more...

This was a very interesting tale which could be the starting point of so many scenarios! For example a confrontation with Celestia and her reaction to the fact that Twilight knows the truth. This could be so interesting... Honestly this little conversation with Luna could lead to an outright Alicorn civil war!
Maybe even Celestia's fall from power...

On one hand I would love to see a continuation of this but on the other I would also like to read more chapters of the Zebra Lands... You are a cruel master Somber but I love you for that

7015689 Actually, she'd first talk to Cadence, then Discord.

7015678 That would be the fourth or fifth chapter.

The concept behind this is interesting enough, but the overbearing occupation with that whole "Luna the sex goddess" thing just stinks of author appeal. It's utterly overdone and there is absolutely no real reason why it had to be as prominent and drawn-out as it was.

¿Finger? Ponies only have 1 digit on each limb.

7016046 As I said, it started out as a sex story idea and just evolved into something a little more serious.
7016410 Thanks. Originally it was anthro and then I converted it to pony. Sorry I missed one.

7015936
Discord I understand but why Cadence? We already know that she's a puppet ruler and a yes-mare towards Celestia. Twilight wouldn't get anything empirical from a conversation with her.

"showed a pink stallions giving"
"stallion"?

"glad you sister in law"
"your"?

"she banished the projection"
"She"?

"she's born are"
"borne"?

"She is, Luna"
"isn't"?

"And an Princess"
"a"?

"Luna?" She asked"
"she"?

"shifted sideways and now"
"sideways, and"?

7017006 Thank you so much for the corrections!

7016953 To ask her why Celestia made her her foal sitter rather than teaching her to be an actual ruler.

7017259
No problem. :)

7017259
Yes, that could be fun to watch. But I kinda doubt that Cadence would experience the kind of mind blow Twilight experienced - she doesn't trike me as the doubtful and independent type.

Dear Terra, There must be more... *incomplete*
Yesss!
Maybe at some point later you can also include some actual clop material or at least bump this down from an M rating to T, there is no real graphic description of genitalia or the act itself. Just mentions and References.

7015678
That's the same sense I got. Still, I could justify it a little by keeping in mind that this is Luna's version of the events. Her own, biased, self-serving version; the one she requires the listener to take everything as fact before she's even willing to say anything. Not a good sign for an objective account.

Addendum: Being a pervert, I have no trouble with a more graphic version.

She held her tea cup in her hands, her eyes closed and composed, but in the liquid, Twilight could see her trembling.

You might wanna use the search function on hand

Dude awesome. Nice start to something incredible. Adding to favorites.

7016483
Fair enough, I suppose I overlooked that part. In all honesty, though? The concept of the story is pretty strong on its own merits and it would be better off if you refrained on going there in the future chapters. The story doesn't really need it for anything.

7018127 Ugh. I thought I'd gotten all of them. Thanks.

Not bad. I like the concept as a whole, although the narrative so far has felt a little more "tell-y" than "show-y". I'd like to see more.

Also:

Prince Amora create a love potion so powerful it nearly wrecked their kingdom.

"created"

Oh hell yes, I MUST see the other side of the coin now. Moreover, Twilight finally coming into her own and confronting Celestia. This kind of buildup, this kind of setting...damn but the possibilities are delicious!!!

Well done, and I look forward to more, if you should see fit to write it!

Loved this story. Would actually like to see it progress to a confrontation with Celestia to compare how she is now to how she used to be. Twilight has a lot to think about.

A decent concept. Execution, to be blunt, is sorely lacking.

7015569 Yes.

This was good. Reminded me a lot about multiple theories I've come across or thought about and was a great read.

If there happens to be a sequel. I look forward to it. Job well done

Somber, this was magnificent. Thank you!

I wonder where Twilight goes after this. To Cadence for advice? To her friends? Does she go for the throat and immediately talk to Celestia? Perhaps to find Terra? Discord?

You know you've done a good job creating an insidious situation when even the best options are unsavory or not helpful. I'm going to eagerly await updates!

I must note that Luna did not swear Twilight to secrecy about any of the story. One has to wonder if she'll make use of this fact.

Take care of yourself, mate. <3

7019449 If you give me something a little more concrete or specific, I might do better next time. "I don't like it" doesn't really tell me much. I will try to do better though.

Yeah, after reading this I'm going to have to echo what others have said and say this is extremely one-sided and Luna has absolutely no reason she should feel any guilt about turning into Nightmare Moon.

-Luna solely saved Equestria from Discord, Celestia was easily manipulated and only provided some of the power used to petrify him.
-It wasn't Luna that was jealous but was actually Celestia's jealousy all along that caused Luna's transformation.
-Celestia was/is bonkers about total control and is willing to go to some pretty extreme lengths in order to retain that control.
-The only reason Luna turned into Nightmare Moon is because Celestia went so far as to remove friends and family from Luna with no hesitation or remorse.

Unless Luna is outright lying or maybe delusional about some of these events there is no way for Celestia to ever be able to justify anything she's done, she's a monster that needs to be removed from power in this. Forgetting some canon instances that contradict what's told here you seem to take the path I've seen many other Luna fans take: If it wasn't on screen assume Celestia did the most heartless thing imaginable behind the scenes.
I'm all for for reading something that sympathizes with Luna and holds Celestia somewhat accountable for what happened to her but this is a bit far. This is to the point that it cheapens Luna's character that's had an entire episode based on how guilty she feels about what she did, if this happened to her I have no idea what caused her to become so guilt ridden as to punish herself for it willingly and is indeed written here as having little remorse for her past actions.

Lastly attacking Cadence sitting Twilight, really? Yeah I'm sure that's a full time gig and she had no time at all to go to school... Goes back to my Celestia doing the most heartless thing possible behind the scenes of the show.

7019612

I wonder where Twilight goes after this. To Cadence for advice? To her friends? Does she go for the throat and immediately talk to Celestia? Perhaps to find Terra? Discord?

It'd almost have to be Cadance. She could pretty safely ask her former foal-sitter a few seemingly innocuous questions to see if Luna's version of her training holds up. If not, she can mentally discard this whole tale without the social cost of challenging anyone about anything. And let's be frank here; everything she's being told here is coming from someone who tried to murder the world in general and her in particular. She should take it with a grain of salt.

If that part does, she can give Celestia's chain a yank and see what happens. Make a few decisions without her input and only tell her about them afterwards when it's too late to change them. If she get praise/criticism purely on the merits of said decisions, then she can safely conclude that it's all in her head. If it's a whole bunch of, "I want you to run EVERYTHING by me first," regardless of how things turned out, then she knows that it's a real issue.

7019631 Riddled with various spelling, spacing and grammatical errors, paints Celestia as unreasonably evil despite Luna's constant assurances that this is somehow balanced, and various other complaints that have already been more eloquently voiced by people far more competent than me.

I like the beginning and end more than most of the middle. Even if Celestia is painted as more in the wrong throughout, in a way that puts her much more so than Luna (though not exclusively: notably the productivity and population explosion concerns could have had real legitimacy to them; if Luna had been transforming foals, depending on the situation that could be a Bad Thing, and Celestia making a rash decision without seeking the advice of others/real story could be seen as consistent with, for example, "Canterlot Wedding," "Crystal Empire," "Keep Calm and Flutter On," and "Twilight's Kingdom"), the fear at the end still resonates. However, in part that's because I'm left wondering if Luna isn't gaslighting Twilight. Or, perhaps, in giving the story as it truly felt to her, and voicing concerns that aren't in fact justified, she's prompting Twilight to do it to herself. But that's one of the issues here: I don't think this could work at all with anyone but Twilight. It's hard to imagine the whole country subdued by a fear lurking just under the surface. But Twilight does have paranoid and obsessive tendencies, and I could see her reacting to a cracking of her perception of Princess Celestia as the very definition of good lurching far in the other direction. However, that's also something that I think would fit better with her personality in the earlier seasons than sometime after the start of Season Five. As a side note, using Spike as an implicit counterpoint to how Twilight had behaved as Celestia's student and fellow princess was one of the high points of the ending; actually, the interaction between him and Twilight generally, limited as it was, I thought was quite natural and stood out as a light point against the heavier tone of the rest.

An important problem I see is that throughout a large portion of the story, Twilight's primary contribution is merely prompting Luna to continue. At times, she's more actively responding or interpreting things, but very frequently she's just asking what happens next. It breaks up the text and makes it feel more like a natural conversation than if it had been uninterrupted speeches, but when it's in this mode, the story isn't actually a conversation, and Twilight is less a character than a prop. Sometimes she seems to take on the story's anti-Celestia tone without adequate justification (such when she gave a "weak defense" of Celestia, or listened in "rapt horror" after Luna said she didn't realize how others would see the creation of the ponies of the night, when to that point I can't think of anything Celestia had done that would cause her to anticipate anything outrageous rather than merely unkind or unfair). That aside, at the chapter level, as I said above, I can see Twilight in particular reacting as she did to all she was told by Princess Luna, if it's a bit harder at this point than a few seasons ago, though I'd certainly believe more push-back (perhaps even moving towards an unhinged drive to prove Luna wrong, though that'd actually be more Season One/Two again than now) as well.

The story as a whole might actually have worked better if it had been Luna who had been seduced by Discord. Not only would it balance things more between the two sisters, but it would provide Celestia a greater justification for viewing Luna's orgies etc. with fear and suspicion, and more direct reason to do the same with the dream walking and night pony transformations. Rather than see things she might associate with Discord as a general threat and (I'm imputing this here) a reminder of her own part in Discord's reign, she might see them as Luna relapsing or taking his place, or in some way still under his influence.

Anyway, having reached the end, I'm still interested in the concept and where it could go from here. With the focus shifting to the present and Twilight late in the chapter, I thought the story became more grounded and intense. How Twilight copes with this new (mis?)information and the shaking of one of the foundations of her world is something with potential, and perspective from someone without quite the same history with Princess Celestia could be enlightening or, depending on how it's handled, drive things into a deeper fog of uncertainty.

That about wraps up my high-level reactions; here are some from along the way.
I like the way Luna's preemptive refusal of what she believes is Twilight's romantic offer is recontextualized by the end.

What are all these things if not an effort to woo me?"
Who? Woo? Woo who?!

I thought this was pretty funny.

Twilight considered. Celestia was... Celestia! She was the embodiment of good. Heck, she might as well be a synonym for it! But here was her sister saying she wasn't. Was she still jealous? After all this time?
Was there anyway Twilight would find out if she didn't try?
"I agree. I'll try and keep an open mind." And perhaps help Luna with whatever would make her think such a terrible thing!

This is a good starting point, and feels right coming from Twilight. But it falls a little quickly for me.

They were crushed, blasted, and swept from the air.

I like that each was paired with what she'd done before, in getting to Pandora.

"She was not pleased when she learned that I could walk the dreams of our subjects, influencing them. Such power was alien to Celestia, and to her, smacked of Discord's manipulation. She retaliated subtly. She started to crack down on the various rogues that I managed."

Given this, though, and the general feeling engendered about Princess Celestia in the present, it strikes me as strange that Luna should have resumed dream-walking after her return. Unless, perhaps, she has kept it hidden. Which would offer a further explanation for not seeking her help with the Tantibus.

"Well, they were criminals, right?" Twilight said in weak defense of Celestia.

The "weak" here, I think, is an example of where the story might take Luna's side too strongly.

Twilight couldn't imagine that. The thought of outright defying Celestia... it was unthinkable. Even as she saw it on the moon before her. "That... that's..."

One point that works well for me is the sequence of indications that, yes, Twilight does see and has always seen disobedience of Celestia as inconceivable, not just for her, but for everyone. Likewise, at the start, going into Luna's story trying to figure out how she could have come to think Celestia wasn't purely good.

She closed her eyes. "I did not appreciate how others would take their transformation."
Twilight couldn't speak as she listened in rapt horror. Finally, she whispered, "What happened?"

Again, this seems too much, too fast. Even with anticipation of worse to come, it doesn't strike me that anything yet would indicate a response strong enough to justify "rapt horror."

"She banished them." Luna whispered, trembling as she fought to get the words out. "All of them... in one day... as I slept... my followers... my friends... my lovers... my... my babies..."
"No," Twilight said in horror. "Your children? How?"

Now it's justified. Especially because "how?" could encompass so much, and has, in Luna's own case.

Was it in the subtle implication and encouragement that her studies should take priority over her romantic life?

This is something that we'd never seen, and actually strikes me as potentially in conflict with the whole "make some friends" thing. A questioning if there had been such an implication or encouragement might have sit better with me.

But she always had to be the good mare. No dating for Twilight. Celestia hadn't had to say a word. She'd allowed Twilight to repressed herself completely.

Now I'm actually wondering if Luna might be gaslighting Twilight. (Or, given who Twilight is, if she's running so far with basic suggestions that she's managing to do it to herself; that would also be consistent with "Bird in the Hoof" and "Lesson Zero".)

"What do you have control over?"
Nothing. Not her life. Not her friends. She allowed herself to be told what to do by everything. By her friends. Celestia. By a magical map.

Right now, by Luna.

"Twilight, I have a little chair next to my sister. I learned what she could do if crossed. I have no desire to press that again." Luna stared at the moon. "I have my dreams. I have foals I can help when they're lonely. That's enough for me now."

Again, though, based on things previously stated, it seems like dream walking and such would qualify, unless Celestia has changed her mind on the matter.

And with that, it clicked together. "You're not just afraid of me becoming a nightmare. You're afraid of Celestia becoming a nightmare too!"

Given that Luna had already said that if she hadn't fallen, she expected Celestia would have . . . not that much of a jump to make, Twilight.

7018495
No problems it happens youre putting a story down on paper and in this particular case the ponies are people.

This is what im here for catching the misc that you glaze over in composition and editing.

7015569

I, for one, am incredibly tired of the "Poor Woona, Celestia is so evil and mean to her! Nightmare Moon was all her fault!" over-used cliche this fandom's been cranking out since early '11. I love me some Twiluna, but not at the expense of Celestia. It's so old. It's so tired. It's just following the boring tripe of "Gentle, faultless authority-figure is really a corrupt and evil figure needing to be deposed or can in no way be reconciled with as an audience" or "Used to be a cold heartless tyrant" which completely lacks depth as an idea and exists purely to cleave to the general social idea that someone nearly immaculate must be dirty and evil in private or in the past, and any 'dark'-themed characters are the REAL good guys.

If that's what this story is about, going to have to count me out, despite my love of Twiluna.

We always assume God is good, and on our side.
We never question what would happen if God wasn't.
We always regret finding out exactly how bad that can get.

Masterful piece sir.

That was really sweet, and I can not possibly imagine where the porn would be in it.

Twilight this would be a great time to take all your sh*t, place it in a bag and start walking toward a country that is far far far far far away.

"Tell me good sir would you be interested in signing a petition to remove Celestia from the throne? I just need your name and address."
"NOPEEEE!"
vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/adventuretimewithfinnandjake/images/8/8c/Nope.gif/revision/latest?cb=20150828063553

I'm not entirely sure why having darkness in one's heart means you can't be good. Being a good person is not about being this ideal, perfect paragon of virtue, it's about striving to do the right thing in spite of whatever flaws you may have. Celestia does that. Luna does that. Twilight does. It isn't your ability to hurt that makes you bad, it's if you choose to do so.
Nonetheless, a rather well-written work of fiction~

7019935 Exactly. God forbid Celestia just be a genuienly nice and kind mare. The only way this fandom seems to be able to twist Luna into their sainted, shining little darling is to twist Celestia into something else entirely. Or, in this case, take all of her positive virtues and throw them back at her. She's an incurable prude!.. even though we've seen canonical proof that she isnt't. Ponies love her because they're afraid of her! The beat goes round and round.

This whole perfect-Luna-Tyrantlestia-circlejerk needs to stop. I love Luna, but she doesn't have to be a flawless little woobie. And what does it say about her when the only way we can build her up is to tear Celestia down in return? One perusal of the Luna Is Best Pony group basically shows the same thing. There's countless NLR groups who treat it like a damn religion, and a 'Celestia Hate' tag on derpibooru.

I mean god damn. Why can't we just accept that they love each other and have moved on? Is that so unappealing? Why does there always have to be some overhanging dark reveal? It got old a long time ago.

7020208

Yet in most of the Celestia groups we love BOTH Royal Sisters, just we have a greater appreciation for Celestia especially for all the shit she gets because she's not Luna.

Hell, even the Solar Empire only came about as a group to preach literally just what you said, that the Sun and Moon love each other and to fucking let be let be. But no, it's always "Nightmare Moon is a saint she didn't do anything wrong" and "Luna is Celestia's victim", "Luna wasn't going to destroy the world no matter what Faust says". In a couple of fantasy-type settings it worked, but they just kept doing it over and over and people kept eating it up because Luna was the hero or valiant damsel each time. Nevermind the stories where Celestia's just absolutely incompetent without Luna, requiring Luna to step in and solve stuff or correct Celestia on crap that she couldn't possibly have gotten wrong considering how well put-together she kept Equestria all this time.

Folks, why can we not praise the sun? The moon is practically drowning in accolades. Celestia kept shit together on her own, alone, for a thousand years, dreadfully missing her little sister, her only family. She's experienced more grief than any mortal can imagine. Give her a break and some love.

7020208 Ever heard of something called fanfiction?