Hi! I'm new to this group. I originally joined just to submit my story. It seems joining groups and putting your story in as many as possible is the best way to get anyone to read it. Well anyway, I saw that this group was actually pretty active.

I've got a question.

Regarding MLP:FiM, where in the world did this idea of love and tolerance come from?

Seriously, could you point me to an episode + time stamp that even somewhat implies this? Maybe it's in a book or comic someone put out that many people have read and I just don't know about it? If it's in the TV show, it's invisible to me. Nothing about the series gave me the idea to "love and tolerate" anything, and I actually think that's a ridiculous and harmful message to send. Assuming that "love and tolerate" means attempting to love your enemies and forgetting about everything they've ever done.

Celestia is pretty much what seems to be the poster pony for worldly maturity in the series and even she doesn't follow hat rulet. She certainly didn't "love and tolerate" Queen Chrysalis or Discord. In fact, she openly displayed her negative feelings for them. The Mane 6 definitely don't follow this, Remember how they acted towards Zecora before Twilight told them they were being crazy? Even Pinkie Pie didn't want to try to be friends with Zecora, which is flat out crazy to me. And then there's how Rarity blew up on Prince Blueblood.

To me, it seemed to send the message not to condemn someone just because of what they look like, what their behavior's like, what they may have done, etc., that even those who seem irredeemable can be redeemed, that someone you're at odds with isn't necessarily your enemy and someone you're not at odds with isn't necessarily your friend, and that even if someone is your enemy or friend doesn't mean that they can't turn into the other -- basically, that two people can get along if even one of them tries and that they can easily break apart only if they both agree to. But I don't think any of it was to say "love and tolerate the ones who make your life miserable".

Thoughts?

2211578 I think it came from 4chan, when a lot of other posters were teasing bronies. The community decided to "love and tolerate" them instead of fighting back. Something like that, anyway.

It doesn't appear in the show, but MLP itself probably wouldn't disagree too much with the message.

2211578
It's one of the weirdest anomalies to ever grace our fair scumbag fandom.
The show never once mentions anything about Loving and/or Tolerating, yet the fandom seems obsessed with making this phrase our holy creed which we must follow with undying obedience.

They do not seem to understand that, humans being humans, it is pretty much impossible to follow this teaching, yet they constantly ram it down everybody's throats like one rams a dildo down a whores mouth and treat it like it's the fucking Holy Grail of our fandom.

2211578

where in the world did this idea of love and tolerance come from?

It was made as a concept to flip off, piss off, and to troll trolls and nothing more.

2211578
I follow the rule of respect. Not love and tolerate.
Why would I tolerate someone who is clearly wrong when I could respectfully point our the error?

2211578
It's from 4chan, where the fandom originated. It basically means "ignore haters posting gore and porn to try to derail our pony threads, and just keep posting ponies". It's basically their version of "don't feed the trolls", just with the nuance that they fed them ponies and hugs instead of getting mad. It worked, generally, since trolling doesn't work without angry backlash as response.

It was somewhat accepted as community creed early on to basically ignore haters and be nice to each other, but that's already a deviation of what it originally meant.

"Love and tolerate" began as a counter-trolling method to people around 4chan when this whole brony fandom was more-or-less a joke. It wasn't long after we became a legitimate thing that someone said, "Hey, this is a great motto to exemplify our friendliness!" Thus, we have some imaginary code that people feel anyone who is a fan of the show needs to follow.

2211585 Whoa, how the hell did you do that double quote?

2211602
It's just... a quote tag inside a quote tag. Same way you can do a bold tag inside an italics tag. It's not hard.

2211602
he broke the rules.

2211602
I am a wizard.

2211607 Yeah, but I didn't know you could do two quotes in a row. THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING.
2211608 No, more like my brain.
2211612 Your name isn't Harry by any chance, is it? XP

2211578
I view it as an idea that should be a guide us. Something to give us a direction to follow. I think that the love is just being nice and showing that you care about something. So I think that putting love is a lot easier then saying, "Be nice to all the trolls and dicks out there and tolerate them as well." I think that Swirlstar is right and that it came from 4chan. It was away to fight against haters and trolls without dropping down to their level. So I will just say this. 'Love and tolerate' is up to each and every person on how it should be viewed and it's meaning. But that is my crazy thoughts on this matter.

2211613
No.
It is Dark Magician.

2211602

What could you possibly be referring to?

2211622

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2211578
The message of "love and tolerance" stems from 4chan, where it was often used as an anti-trolling method by bronies whenever the "haters" showed up (read: when people started calling them out on their bullshit).

It wasn't ever really a motto meant to be taken seriously, and there is nothing in any MLP media that preaches the ideal. It was completely a creation of the fandom and, in my opinion, one of the strangest things we've ever come up with.

2211583
That's what I've been trying to figure out. It doesn't make any sense. I'm not the greatest pony fan person, but if I could ask all MLP fans to do one thing, it would be to stop using that phrase.

2211582
2211587
2211594
...
Being faced with the actual answer so early on is extremely depressing. I don't know what I was expecting.

2211637 Hey, if you want to Love and Tolerate, go ahead. It's not a bad creed to live by, just don't overdo it.

2211637
I've honestly never seen any harm in it, and I don't know why people freak out about it. Like with any pithy saying, of course it could be taken to stupid and unrealistic extremes. But it's not an entire code of behavior and morality, it's just one little phrase.

Nobody is realistically going to advocate, say, 'Turning the other cheek' to the extreme of letting someone kill you without lifting a finger. So why does this bit of moral advice seem to have people expecting absurdities?

2211628
I find it hilarious that you're kinda doing the exact thing you're talking about.

2211643
I think it's a terrible one, mainly because it only seems to work if people are unsure of whether or not they can provoke you. If they know they can then it's pointless to follow because they'll just keep doing it to you everyday until they find something to crack you with or you find something to crack them with.

The thing I despise most about it is that It's something that's been said before and it doesn't work very well, at least not for me. I like things that work.

2211658 Yeah, it has its limits. Love and Tolerate shouldn't be telling you to be a pushover or to be a jerk.

I think it's probably best used in terms of accepting that other people can think and behave differently, and thinking no less of them because of it.

2211648
I think it's because "love and tolerate" sounds like one of those things that applies in all situations. No matter what happens, love and tolerate. Then he sucker punches you in the face and all your love and tolerance is gone.

On the other hand, turn the other cheek sounds pretty... I don't want to say weak, but perhaps not all encompassing? Like, it works for specific situations. For instance, if you're an adult and a kid says you're bald and you take pride in having hair, it could hurt but that's an instance where you turn the other cheek. On the other hand, if one of your peers had said that, that has a totally different effect if you don't react to it a certain way. Turn the other cheek wouldn't work so well there. So of course it'd be ridiculous to turn the other cheek if some crazy person with a butcher knife is running towards you. What are you turning the other cheek for, so he can slice it off?

2211667
I already do that though. Especially over the internet. But the part that was getting to me is that it didn't seem to have anything to do with MLP at all. Then I hear it originated from 4chan and all I can think is.... Oh.

2211630

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Despite it's birth in this fandom as an anti-trolling credo, the concept of letting other people's remarks, comments and philosophy roll off your back isn't exactly a new one. In my eyes it's just another way of saying 'haters gonna hate'.

Folks who cram the credo down other people's throats (still getting your visual for that one, Stiggz, ) aren't doing it right. The whole point is to let people do what they wanna do and not judge them for it (read as: no throat-cramming of any kind). Holding to it ain't easy, that's for sure. It does take a bit of practice, patience, and restraint to not jump on somebody who posts something you strongly disagree with, but for my part I just remind myself that it's not my place to instruct the rest of the world how to think or behave.

Everypony trots their own path, and even if I think what they're doing is wrong, it's their journey and they need to live it for themselves.

Nobody ever learned anything worthwhile from a middle-aged, unicorn-riding space pirate anyway,

2211586

That's kinda what tolerance is, though: Being respectful even when you disagree. You're confusing tolerance with acceptance.

To quote South Park's Mr Andersson: "Just because you have to tolerate something doesn't mean you have to approve of it! Tolerate means you're putting up with it. You tolerate a crying child sitting next to you on the airplane or, or you tolerate a bad cold. It can still piss you off!"

2211578 I think the idea comes from the fact that there are no clear prejudices against "color".
Yes, the ponys tend to segregate themselves by type ie. Unicorn, Pegasus, and Earth.
That is why there is a Hearth's Warming holiday. To remind everyone that extreme separation has dangers. That is where we have tolerate.

As for love.. Isn't friendship a type of love? True it is a platonic love, but still love. And "Friendship" is in the opening of the show.

As for Zecora, well that episode was about ignorance. Twilight Sparkle was the only one who knew what is a zebrica. Even then she showed that book learning has its limits, when she misunderstood what a shaman zebrica does.

2211625

Where is your God now?

Ever since i saw the episode a Birdie Gossip, i was all like Love and Tolerance my ass.

2211578 Actually, I'd say Celestia would love and tolerate them if they weren't attempting world domination. Basically, she will defend her people and her world if things are in genuine danger, and of course "love and tolerate" doesn't apply to psychopathic overlords but to online bullies, because in a war of words there is no greater weapon than being strong enough to endure stupid comments without feeding the trolls. The idea is that if you shower your enemies with the love that they need to get over their problems and become better people, and tolerate their difference, they won't fight you any more. This is shown in the Elements of Harmony shooting rainbow-friendship at the enemies to incapacitate them to o any further harm, if you wanted something from the show to support it.
Now imagine this: instead of fighting Diamond Tiara and Silver Spoon or being caught up in how hurt they are by their behaviour, the CMC ignore their hurtful teasing, tolerate their differences and give large shows of kindness to the pair of misguided fillies who at the moment have no real friends but each other? They wouldn't be able to make themselves feel stronger by teasing the CMC any more since there is no longer a response, they would get tired of being upstaged and made to look ridiculous by the lack of response and after an initial desperate pick up in the amount of teasing, it would fall sharply. They wouldn't be able to say that there was anything wrong with the CMC and have the same sense of social validation that they did before because the CMC no longer act like there are barriers between them based on difference. And with so much kindness given to them, they would become friends eventually and show kindness in return instead.

2216958
Sometimes people set themselves up to be your enemies and no amount of talking or gift giving gets you out of it. You can't treat them like people anymore because they're not behaving as people. They're serving a specific purpose. You have to approach them according to that purpose.

Enemies don't necessarily stop being your enemies just because you want them to stop. In any case, people tend to give in only once you prove to them that you're too difficult to attack. This makes them decide it's not worth trying to fight you. I wager that if the CMC let the teasing continue, they'll be bullied even once they do get their cutie marks.

In your example, in order for it to work to its intended conclusion, the CMC would need to express that they're unassailable in order to get the teasing to stop. I can't say I genuinely know the precise reason why Diamond Tiara and Silver Spoon pick on the CMC, but from a very basic standpoint I can definitely say that the reason they pick on them is because they know their teasing affects them. Ignoring someone's teasing isn't the same as being unaffected by it. In fact, attempting to ignore it can be a sign that it's having an effect on you. If the CMC tries to act positive around them despite the fact that they're teasing them, it might appear as though they're just trying to appease them. It might even make the two step their game up and do something horrible. "Will you pretend that you love me even after I wound you deeply?" That's not love and tolerance, that's submission. When you submit to someone, they can harm you at will. What do you do when submission is met with worse behavior?

As Einstein said:

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

In order to dissuade them from their bullying, the CMC would need to prove to them that they're not easy to victimize. Unfortunately, I can't think of any good examples of this that are pleasant. Whether their methods are pleasant or harsh for DT and SS, it could potentially lead to a friendship, it could lead to a complete separation of the two groups, or it could even lead towards the CMC teasng them instead.

It's because of this that I think it's ineffective. I think the message I stated at the bottom of my opening post is a lot more helpful than love and tolerance.

2218678 People are always people, man. People do shit to each other because they are sad and pathetic and need cruelty to make them feel strong. If you don't give bullies the sensation of having any power over you by being stronger than they could hope to be in terms of being able to walk away and not be trapped by them emotionally, they can't do anything and they either wither away and withdraw or make a positive change because you not only haven't given them any reason to be hateful, but haven't given them any weakness to exploit in the first place so that they are incapable of hurtfulness. That said, of course bullies and aggressive people should be stopped from doing the bad things they do, but to deny them their humanity is to compound their position as a monster. When people are trapped in a state of being seen as a bad people and nothing more, then that is what they will become since it is the only way they are socially capable of acting with people if they are not allowed to be equals.
The CMC should report DT and SS to the relevant authorities, and not show any anger or resentment. If they show to be unaffected by bullying, DT and SS will have no power over them and eventually stop. If they were to do anything seriously harmful, they should be stopped by the teacher or whatever.

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