NATO, Nukes, and Nazis · 3:56pm Apr 4th, 2022
Hi. How are you. You look great today.
I fucking cried twice since this started - you know, the fascist invasion for territorial conquest of a small, young democracy. Once a few days into it, when the reality sunk in. Once yesterday. You know. Mass graves. Civilians executed with their hands tied and bullets in the brain.
You know. Like the last time the fascists went through Ukraine.
I have family over there. They're not why I cried. One is in school in Bangladesh, and the other is in Western Ukraine. So he's safe. You know. Comparatively.
I'm not going to do my usual thing where I flagrantly try to shed followers who simp for fascists because I'm pretty sure they're all gone by now.
There's nothing justifying this. None. "NATO expansion" is a dumb, desperate excuse for morons and Tucker Carlson (but I repeat myself). "Against the Nazis" aimed at a nation with a Jewish president who's far-right party won 1.6% of the vote last election? What trash.
Here's a Russian news outlet discussing what to do with Ukraine. Just. Endless fucking fascist talking points. Odessa (a city in Ukraine) is a "Russian" city. The population are 'passive Nazis' and require punishment. The 'denazified' state can not be sovereign, and must be managed for at least 30 years.
"The name "Ukraine" apparently cannot be retained as the title of any fully denazified state entity in a territory liberated from the Nazi regime."
"Denazification will inevitably also be a de-Ukrainization - a rejection of the large-scale artificial inflation of the ethnic component of self-identification of the population of the territories of historical Little Russia and New Russia, begun by the Soviet authorities...It must be returned to its natural boundaries and deprived of political functionality....Ukrainism is an artificial anti-Russian construction that does not have its own civilizational content, a subordinate element of an alien and alien civilization."
So. If anyone is still thinking there is any grey area here whatsoever. That this is anything but a fascist war of conquest against a small neighbor. That maybe Russia is just doing this to keep the territories it previously conquered. I hope this disabuses you.
Fingers crossed for the painful death of as many Russian soldiers as possible, as quickly as possible. Sorry.
Yup. Putin and Russia have gone full fascist, and anyone supporting or excusing them now knows what they would have done in the Third Reich: they would have supported the Nazi regime.
And yes, NATO expansion is not a threat to Russia or the Russian people. Only to Putin and his dreams of a resurgent Russian empire, because he couldn't bully and threaten and, if necessary, invade and purge NATO Ukraine.
Im still wishing putin gets heart cancer but im here asking whats dose russia win if they guet ukrain? At this point their economy is in shambles and they made a lot of enemis
Wow, how coercive and expansionist of them. (Sauce)
While your emotions are understandable it is NOT right to wish people's death. Especially since, you know, soldiers are suppose to follow the orders they're given. And are you truly believe that every single Russian soldier supports the direction that the government takes?
some say putin is hitler or stalin i say both of them
5648548
Can't say I give one shit. "Yeah, Putin is evil, but I'll follow orders and bomb that hospital to help our invasion"? What a nice guy. What a fucking worthwhile human being. "They might be fighting a war to liquidate an entire people and culture, but it's wrong to wish their death." Fuck me.
I'm sure there are great guys in the Russian army. Just like the Wehrmacht and SS. Sure sucks that we live in a world where the death of Russian soldiers is a positive thing because it means they won't kill any more for Putin's war of conquest. But. Here we are.
Go to Ukraine and tell the robbed mothers they shouldn't wish death on the men who killed their children. Until then, kindly save your platitudes.
Best wishes, despite everything.
5648558
So you're saying that my cousin deserves a painful death just because he got incredibly shitty luck and that goddamn war just so happened to start during his mandatory enlistment into army that he had no way of escaping? Well if that so then kindly fuck you too.
I'll reveal one secret about Russian government. It doesn't give a fuck about what the common folks wants or think. Russia was a monarchy and it's still a monarchy just under a different name. Elites always were the ones with power in Russia and they still are. The amount of times when common folk was able to make a difference is so damn small it can be counted on the fingers and Russia has well over a thousand and half years of history. If there are people to blame it's those at the top cause they are the ones with power and everyone else has to either go along with it or suffer. You think people didn't protest against the war? They did and they all were arrested for doing so.
You talk about robbed mothers in Ukraine but what about the Russian mothers who's childrens you wish death? Is just because Russians are aggressors it makes it ok to do so? If that's so then it's a goddamn hypocritical of you to say that.
Like you I don't give one shit for those who fan the flames of war and violence even more than they already are. Adue.
5648558
5648564
On Phara_Mines point, the Russian soldiers may have been threatened with death if they disobey. Now obvuisly they should still disobey and die rather then kill people but it's very easy to say that. Much harder to do that. There were Jews who betrayed their fellow Jews in the holocaust for the hope that they and their family would survive. Was that right? No of course not, thousands died because of their actions. But could I honestly say I defintly wouldn't have done the same thing if I was in their position. No. It's easy to critize people who kill rather them be killed, but most of us have never experienced having that choice be forced on us. So claiming those that chose to kill in that situation are evil and they deserve to die painful deaths is wrong.
Rune honestly ask yourself, can you be sure you wouldn't do the same? Not do you think it's wrong to make that choice, but whether you can be sure that you who values your own life wouldn't do what the Russian soldiers did if forced to choose between that and death. Because unless you were in that position and chose death but survived, then I can say for certain that you don't know what you would do, and wishing that those that had to make the choice and choose the wrong one should suffer is wrong.
5648564
I am feeling VERY scrappy today, but in your post I do see the same impotent rage I myself feel, for many of the same reasons. I will decline to bite back, and at least wish you well. I hope your cousin will not kill anyone.
5648577
You miss the point.
Bluntly, it is war. I do not wish death out of rage or righteousness, but practical necessity. The Russian soldier is not more good or evil now than on February 1st. He is, however, engaged in a war of conquest and literal genocide. This war must end in his defeat. Every Russian soldier that dies disrupts incrementally the means and mechanism of the Fascist invasion. This is particularly true in the current circumstances, as Ukraine cannot completely defeat Russia and must instead grimly stack bodies until the political cost for Putin becomes too great.
The defeat of Ukraine entails the destruction of it's culture, identity, and people - a genocide. This is not hyperbole, but is actively endorsed by Russ. government mouthpieces. Putin himself has claimed Ukraine has no distinct culture and is an "artificial creation" (Hitler said the same of Poland). The way to prevent such atrocity is by Ukraine killing Russian soldiers. It is utter tragedy that this is true, but I see no question that it is so. It is the same for the Wehrmacht and SS - they all were sons and cousins and such, and many were drafted and reluctant. Their demise ended the evils of the Third Reich, and it is indulgent and idle to wish them well.
I have no use for hypothetical "what would you do?"s. Perhaps I would be heroic, but probably not. I don't care. The facts of the war would remain unchanged. I am not so pathetic as to say, "Well, if stopping genocide means I would die, then I change my mind!"
5648593
I agree actually. I was disturbed you said you hoped they died painfully. I agree that it's better for Russian Soldiers to die then Ukrianian people be destroyed and that might be the horrific nessacity. But I was horrified that you said
in the terrible situation we're in I hope that at least since it's better for those Russian soldiers to die that they die quickly and painlessly.
5648597
Well yes, I did say that and I frankly can't bring myself to regret it. It is across the ocean but I am watching the attempted annihilation of my culture, here. I try to remain cold but I am invested.
Sunflower seeds, etc.
5648599
That makes sense. I'm sorry. I'm praying for Ukraine and hoping G-d listens. It's the most I can do aside from donating which I'm also doing. I'm sorry I wasn't empathetic to your pain.
What is fascism for you? I think we can describe the regime as authoritarian, fascist depending on which definition you give, but I don’t see how an invasion can be qualified as an ideology, do you mean it uses fascist ideas to justify itself or that it’s execution follows fascist ideas?
Yep, criminal invasion of another country is just out-and-out evil. Can't imagine what the invaders hoped to gain beyond devastating the place and engendering fanatic hatred and resistance in the populace.
What is happening in Ukraine is terrible, and the courage shown by the Ukrainian people, as well as the effectiveness of their resistance, is beyond what anyone has ever expected to be possible. Especially the Russian aggressor.
I have to say though, the degree of the author's fervour seems unusual. Especially this bit:
I dont suppose Dan lives either in Ukraine or one of the small countries neighbouring Russia? I had actually assumed the author as American based on the cultural feel of his story as well as his writing style.
5648603
So.
I'm huge into WWII and the pre and think I can actually answer this intelligently.
"Fascism" according to Meariam-Webster is
Practically this is a vague and unsatisfying definition that can be twisted anyway you like. "Biden wants mandatory vaccines! That means he's engaging in social regimentation and suppression of the individual! See? Fascism!"
For perhaps a better definition we can turn to the Axis Powers of WWII (and Franco's Spain), whom are very commonly agreed to be "Fascist." The only problem is this has limits, too: Corporatist Italy was not Military Coup Spain was not Emperor-Worship Japan was not Backroom-deal-to-power Germany. There is no particular prescription or government for Fascism, nor does any modern government admit to the ideology. We know those governments were Fascist (and we can safely say this because the world agrees the word refers to them), but past that it's a buzzword.
Using this, however, let's look at motherfucking Putin. Like Hitler, he has launched a revanchist war of aggression. Both justified it with talk of 'protecting' their ethnicity (ie Germans in Sudetenland) and of reclaiming parts of an empire "rightfully" theirs. Like Hitler of Poland, Putin insists his opponent is an 'artificial' nation with no culture or 'real' identity of its own. Both lied promises of peace, and shrilly trumpet absurd claims of threat and disaster if they do not invade. Putin is a despot who has steeply curbed dissent at home such that any public criticism of the war is met with cartoonish punishment. Russian rhetoric leads us quite firmly to conclude the objective is a cultural and ethnic genocide of Ukraine, removing its name and 'reeducating' its population away from any notion of a separate existence from Russia.
"Fascism," is an ill-defined term. However, I cannot come up with any manner in which Russia under Putin does not fit the bill.
5648548
There are numerous reports of Russian forces engaging in the exact same thing they did on their warpath to Berlin in World War II. (I am not getting into the "but the Germans were Nazis" argument here given what this is about). Mass murder of non-combatants and raping of women and children, including a 3-year old in one report. There have been some reports of Putin even encouraging this as psychological warfare. Whether it is being ordered by Putin and/or the Kremlin or it's just the Russian soldiers being undisciplined and unruly (a common fault of its army in any iteration), this is just barbarism, plain and simple.
5648611
Are the justifications the russian rhetoric gives what lead decision making? I don’t think the decision to invade Ukraine would’ve been made based on race or revanchist ideas, it would’ve been made based on the desire to extend the russian sphere of influence and strategic security, the latter to a certain degree, as the expansion of NATO with Ukraine is legitimate but would’ve been undesirable for Putin. Everything said now would be to persuade or convince the public (more persuasion imo).
Even though this has revealed itself to be a massive blunder. The failure of the invasion was probably due to incompetence or ignorance in russian military high command, perhaps even fear of going against Putin’s wishes. Perhaps the invasion was doomed from the beginning due to the conscription based army and perhaps lack of appropriate logistical doctrine, although that could be attributed to incompetence. And I believe if the invasion was accomplished within 4 days as they planned, it would’ve been a “surgical” war with minimal repercussions, at least compared to what we have now. Although I don’t follow russian rhetoric closely, I don’t think they advertised to the russian people immediately after the war that they would’ve renamed Ukraine and ‘reeducated’ it’s people, correct me if I’m wrong though, since that would change things. If I am correct though, this rhetoric is probably an attempt to maintain complacence within the population. This would be in line with the progressively more brutal military tactics employed by the russian army in an attempt to win.
Otherwise, I don’t believe Putin is fascist, I would say more pragmatic, however that can be debated as perhaps his motivations are revanchist in nature. However, I strictly believe Russia is not fascist, the definition you cited states the influence of the government on the economy and society. The economy is largely controlled by the oligarchs, but you can argue they are in line with Putin. The society is most certainly not controlled by the government, at least not to the degree required by fascism. Fascism most definitely describing Germany, Italy, Russia and Spain during WW2 (the latter of which I am less familiar with). And we cannot see the same degree of control nowadays, I believe the distinction is important because there is a stark difference, now, I’m quite sure russian families can complain about the war in their homes without fear of repercussions, in WW2, there was a possibility that you’re child would’ve been indoctrinated or your neighbor would denounce you and you would be therefore punished. The differentiation I believe is important because I see ‘fascist’ as a strong word, that immediately makes those terrible governments come to mind, I don’t think we should water down its meaning with references to authoritarian governments. This is because. I believe ‘fascist’ provides a stronger feeling than ‘terrible repressive authoritarian government’.
5648637
"Putin not fascist"?!
That man has completely dissolved democracy in his own country, imprisoned all of his political opponents and tried to assassinate others, including those abroad endangering the lives of foreign citizens while at it, teaches politically correct history (praising the acts of people like Joseph Stalin, denying that Chernobyl ever happened, thus several of his own troops who entrenched in Chernobyl got radiation poisoning), believes in the ideals of Alexander Dugan's Eurasianism, in that all of Eurasia belong to Russia, vilifies people deemed undesirable, which include religious minorities and members of the LGBTQ community and allows nothing bad to be said of him, EVER. Hell, anyone speaking out against the war now is going to be imprisoned, or even executed, since Russia left the European Court of Human Rights.
That man is about as fascistic as one can get!
5648552
I say Putin is Putin.
5648548
Do you support American war crimes too or only when it's someone else "just following orders"?
5648564
You mean like the fucking Soviet revolution? That improved the lives of hundreds of millions of people? The common folk are the only ones who can do anything. It's hard, but when we band together for a better future, sometimes, just once in awhile, we're able to build a better world. That's why I'm a communist.
DISCLAIMER: the USSR unfortunately did a lot of evil things. I try to give them some grace, because the vast majority of the world was united against their bold experiment not in love of freedom, but hatred of it. That can do a number on any person, system, and country. Unfortunately, the powers that be that sought to destroy the USSR have emphasized all the wrong it did instead of the vastly more good things. I want to build a better world, and I hope to do it better and more with love than they were able to.
5648648
That’s reasonable.
5648685
Yeah the common folks did band together and life improved but it didn't last. Eventually elites seized control once again and you know perfectly well how the life of Soviet union ended. And now the situation is not that different. Once again all authority in Russia is held by a group of people who doesn't seem willing to let it go. Putin is a president for a total of 18 years already for god's sake.
Hope you'll have the motivation and resources to build the better world you see.
5648564
If he's actually in Ukraine, pray your cousin hasn't turned into one of the inhuman monsters that are inflicting unimaginable horrors on the civilian population in the parts of Ukraine that's occupied by Russians. Or is part of those who indiscriminately lay waste to entire cities and engage in medieval siege warfare, starving tens of thousands. Or forcibly remove thousands to 'camps' somewhere in unknown locations in Russia. Or mine humanitarian corridors. Or fire on, shell or ambush refugees and relief transports.
Or stands idly by and watches while it happens.
'Just following orders' went out the window for good at the Nuremburg trials.
The mothers of the vile beasts described above have already lost their sons. I doubt they wanted to raise monsters that will never, ever be able to function in a civilised society again. They do indeed deserve what Dan says. As do their commanders.
So let's hope he isn't in Ukraine, or at least isn't part of this.
5648746
It's what I'm studying now: How to build a better everything, ideally in a way that not only lasts, but naturally tends towards betterment rather than decay.
Thank you for your encouragement; I mean that sincerely.
(I am also motivated by the desire to pet fluffy cats like the one in your profile.
5648552
Stalin actually did a bunch of based stuff along with the not-so-based stuff. Putin does not deserve to wear that mantle.
5648747
Unfortunately he is in Ukraine, in a tank corp if what I'm told is right. Even though we didn't talk much he certainly wasn't the one to support any of this so I have faith in him. Which is the reason those death wishes angers me so much.
My thoughts are summed up as: fuck Russia, fuck Putin and fuck anyone that denies, excuses or defends their crimes.
5648753
Then I hope you're right about him.
5648685
Communism does not work. Time and time again, every country that is or was communist fails to do what the manifesto claims as its set goals. It always results in a totalitarian oppressive state ruled by a select few elites who reap all the benefits they can get while putting down any form of dissent.
Karl Marx himself was a freeloader who lived off inheritance, never worked a day in his life, owned a textile factory, and is buried in a private cemetery.
5648773
how much of that is based off of your own research using unbiased resources and how much of it is stuff you've been taught to believe? I am not good at debating and it won't change your heart, I just want to point out that there is so much more to communism than an authoritarian pastiche of it. Just to start with myself, I'm a libertarian socialist.
And regardless of what Marx did or didn't do, its a logical fallacy to attack him as a substitute for attacking communism. At the risk of triggering Godwin's law, it's no better than saying freeways are a bad idea because Hitler advocated for them.
If you want to discuss this stuff in good faith, I can try to push myself above my general crappyness at debating for the good of both of us and humanity.
5648773
5648776
I like to compare communism to the OG Utopia: the benefits are irrelevant because there's no remotely viable transition state. The difference is that the guy who invented the word "utopia" could at least admit that he was proposing the impossible.
5648785
We need dreamers to envision a better version of this world as much as we need doers to make this dream a reality. My Little Pony unites us in our belief that the improbable can be possible.
John Lennon (a bit hypocritically, but also in truly human fashion,) MLK Jr., Madeleine D'lingle, Ursala Le Guin, and innumerable others have believed in this dream. You can join us too if you want. The building blocks are love, kindness, and hope.
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Whether it is achievable or not, I'll continue to dream the impossible dream.
EDIT: While thinking about how many other people and art work express this as well, inspired by the Queen song "Innuendo", I realized what art is about: dreams. So thank you.
5648787
Unfortunately, the "doers" are more or less by definition exactly the same sort of authoritarians currently in charge. You kill a bunch of people and then the line gets dropped on you like a ton of bricks: "meet the new boss, same as the old boss".
5648776
Communism means the absolute dissolution of class and state by enacting a forced compliance to eliminate private ownership where the state owns everything. But guess what? The state is run by people. People who have access to everything, meaning they can afford cushier lives, meaning they won't give up this power out of simple human error.
It's no different from Ayn Rand's Galt's Gulch idea that allowing uncontrolled anarcho-capitalism will somehow create a utopia when in that scenario people can use whatever underhanded, short-sighted or outright dangerous means simply for the sake of profits like selling cheaper cigarettes by putting asbestos into the filters.
5648747
As a rule I try to remain indifferent to talk of individual responsibility. The Russian soldiers who committed the war crimes will never be prosecuted because Russia will not prosecute them. We all know this and little more need be said except to G__ D___ all Russian soldiers and I will not retreat from that.
I am currently reading "The Pacific War" by Saburo Ienaga which discusses Japan's role in WWII and its descent to Fascism, and I have been struck by the relevance of one line:
This crystalizes for me a blurry indistinction. Wehrmacht Fritz the nice boy who just follows orders is not as responsible as Mr. Hitler, but I think he is owed some grief. Every modern rise of evil came about by victory over internal opposition, and it often is the opposition's fault. In Spain, anarchists and liberals shot each other until Franco ran over them all. In Germany the non-Fascists allowed themselves to be demoralized, stampeded, and sidelined by a loud minority. In Russia, they mumble online about how they're totally hopeless to do anything and people should stop being mean (this is not a fair or balanced statement on my part but I am angry).
It is fair, I think, to say the anti-war and anti-Fascist of then and now do bear some responsibility. Barring rare exceptions (The White Rose movement in Germany, that most noble of suicides), it wasn't inevitable, and they fucking lost. They lacked conviction, intelligence, and strategy, and the world paid for it. And after their defeat, the vast majority became grumbling cogs of genocide and war.
It is very easy to type this in America, now eight generations removed from its last and only great crisis. But I think it is also fair to note that because the grumblers have declined deadly heroism for stability, deadly heroism is now required of others to keep their machine at bay. They have foisted their struggles onto the invaded. "I will be punished if I refuse conscription," thus the stranger in his own homeland must now repulse one more Fascist soldier.
Well. So run my thoughts.
5648637
If your argument that Russia is not Fascist hinges on "If they complain in the privacy of their own home to only their families they won't be punished, probably," then I don't think you personally will call any modern nation Fascist, ever.
This is not intended as criticism, but it is an honest observation. Have a pleasant evening.
5648914
I would say that’s good, it means we will never fully revert to the barbarism that is exemplified by the fascist governments of WW2.
5648911
I know I already DMed you a hug, but here's another hug, because Japanese war crimes in WWII were on another level.
Shit's fucked. All we can do is strive to make it less fucked. And we are. It's just taking far too long.
5648858
To be clear, I do not see actually communism being a thing until we have a post scarcity society, ideally with a lot of help from benevolent AIs (its own can of worms). But I'd argue that socialism is very possible and preferable and that we have the resources for it now; lacking only the means of getting there. But that will not always be the case, and when change does happen, I want to understand and spread understanding of how to build a system that doesn't fall from grace because anti-corruption is baked into it, rather than, say, the late stage capitalism of America for example where any progressive reforms naturally are watered down and overturned because that's how the system's built.
I believe better systems are possible, and I'm studying how now.
5648911
Nothing to say to that apart from that I fully agree.
And that I fear for the future when I see the current trajectory of several nations mirroring that history.
5648544
You need to have a heart to get heart cancer.
5648548
When you enable a fash regime, you reap the consequences of working for a fascist. Are some of them afraid? Sure. But if they don't want to get justifiably shot, they need to desert the Russian army, or shoot their own commanders, or other actual meaningful actions here.
Any Russian who is still supporting this war, especially those who are on the front line? I will feel no sorrow at their deaths. I will offer my hand in peace up till the last possible moment for you to shake it, but when it becomes clear that is impossible, and if allowed to continue, innocent people will suffer?
The right action in that moment is to clench your hand of peace into a fist of justice and strike.
Slava Ukraini
5648597
I still maintain this, and don't regret it, and I want those painful Russian deaths recorded and broadcast - in Russia.
Because nothing will break the fascist spirit ruling Russia faster than the screaming agony of its people splashed across its own TV & Computer monitors.
I don't take pleasure in it; it's simply a more expedient way for things to end. The more rapidly and vividly Russians see what the cost of Putin's genocide will be, the faster they realize that the choices faces them either death & dishonor, or possible death while retaining/regaining said honor.
Sometimes the only choice you have is not whether you win or lose, but how you lose. This is now the choice facing each and every Russian still enabling Putin. The only Russians I give anything resembling a pass to are those in prison for dissent, or those who have fled the country because Putin's actions are unconscionable.
At the risk of being a hypocrite, if peeps could stop punching the Russian who appears to hate this as much or more than I do, that'd be great.
It is way hard to care for high minded ideals when it's your own family and I super get that.
5648787
I suggest listening to "The Revolutions Podcast" The Russian Revolution. Mike Duncan does a great job and does alot of research and he is very sympathetic to communism(though I don't know where he is politically himself, he can be anywhere from a liberal capatlist(like Norway) to a communist). But listen to the podcast which goes in depth into both Russian revolutions and see how it took like a week for the Bolshevic party to betray their ideals. Especially look how they started having their be perks during "war Communism" for being in the party while they were forcing the citizens of russia to starve.
I am a communist, but defending any of the Bolshivics is like saying Caesar Augustus(first emperor of Rome) was a defender of Democarcy. No, he and the Bolshevics merely claimed the ideals for probaganda purposes. Maybe at one point the Bolshevics were believers, but it took them 5 secounds to be corrupted once in power.
5648858
No communism means the end of the state, there is no state and everyone works in factories(a couple days a month) for the same reason they clean their own house. Its for the good of the whole and their has been a social change so people see it as a responsiblity not a job. And with the amont of industiralization there is so much efficancy that people dont have to work in factories all the time. Hence why an indivual would only have to work a couple days a month to keep the system rolling. Communism is based on a Community. People working to help eachother. It relies on people changing their attitudes so they don't have to be coerced. No state just communities. This attitude change is supposed to natturaly come about once the redistibution of wealth happens. and thats the problem. The redistribution of wealth which is a part of the intermidatary stage from Capatlism to Communism has never worked and I personally can't think of a way it can work. Bassically the utopia of Communism is sound, how to get their so far seems impossible.
5648911
There is actually a philospher on just war who agrees with you on this. The person that accepts conscription rather then death may not be "guilty" but they are responsible for what happens. Guilt implies they are a bad person or what they did doesn't make complete sense. But despite all that defense they still are responsible.
I say this having lost all embathy with the Russian soldiers because of their war crimes. Obvuisly I have the same feelings to the ones that haven't commited atrocities(and didn't see atrocities because I doubt you would be shot for trying to stop your fellow soldier for raping someone) as I did before, but I am finding it less likely that many of them exist. Though I am confident there are some that are merely responsible not guilty.