May
14th
2016
A Summary of the Everfree Northwest "How to Write Girls" Panel · 12:02am May 14th, 2016
GM Berrow: I'm still at the airport.
Heartshine: Okay, so, she's going to be late. So, how do you write female characters?
Amy Keating Rogers: Women are people. Just write them like people.
MA Larson: What she said.
*insert 58 minutes of making fun of Spike here*
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Titanium Dragon · 891 views
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#How to write girls
#how to write women
#women are people
#stories about women are stories about people
#Heartshine
#MA Larson
#Amy Keating Rogers
#Rogers actually said some good stuff about how to properly think about this sort of thing
#namely don't obsess over them being girls
#if you are you're doing it wrong
What else would you do with Spike?
Look at you, typing during a panel
s32.postimg.org/erqc4z705/image.jpg
While quotes like this make for pithy soundbites, the advice is about as helpful as saying "get good scrub".
Women and men are of course, people, and should generally be written as such. But gender roles are pretty permeated throughout society, and when designing a character, you should take into account what effect those roles have had on their upbringing, and how they interact with them. Even if a character doesn't put much stock into their gender roles at all, other people around them might, and may treat them differently because of their own beliefs about gender.
Of course, this is somewhat less relevant when writing about fantasy worlds like Equestria where gender may or may not mean all that much at all. But it's still something to consider, and if a story is set on earth, the considerations for women are going to be different than those of men.
3942895
You are forgetting comedic physical abuse.
3942895 Play hacky sack?
3942913
I tend to agree, though I think the soundbite is probably still useful, because too often the problem is that men write women as "Woman-creatures" who are different from men in all sorts of stereotypical ways. So, since there are a wide variety of women, getting them to put women into the "human" category is important to start with.
Past that, well, what made the most sense to me was when I realized that being female is really a subculture. There are cultural touchpoints that most women have that men don't have, different norms for language and personal space, things we pay more attention to and things we aren't concerned with[1]. Like any subcultural group, people can be more or less enmeshed in it: there are Latino people who grew up speaking Spanish and going to mass, and there are people who legitimately prefer Taco Bell to traditional Mexican food. But a Latino who doesn't like Mexican food is going to be aware of that. The same is true of a woman who has never really had an interest in the female subculture.
That said... I sure wouldn't know how to tell people to write women. I mean, it's not like I can teach someone a whole subculture in all its shades and regional variations. I can (totally unhelpfully) tell you when you're doing it wrong, but I can only really give specific suggestions about how to do it right.
[1] One thing I notice a lot in romance fics is one of the mane six being embarrassed to be a virgin... girls are way more accepting of that than guys are. I can't imagine a girl ever considering it an embarrassing secret (a little weird, maybe, especially if they've been in long term relationships.) But that's the sort of thing that screams "A GUY WROTE THIS" to me.
3942898
Hey, what? TD is not an actual titanium dragon? Pitchfork and flames time!!!
3942955
Frankly, writing a woman who is a person, even if they aren't properly a part of "female culture", will still at least be a person, so at least they can be interesting, even if they're wrong and not a particularly accurate view of women.
3943011
Oh, totally. Like I said, that's the most important part and at least gets you in the right ballpark. The other stuff is just the kind of thing that can pull me out of (or make me avoid) a story, the way people who know about computers might feel about a story with obviously wrong technobabble.
There *is* truth in that "Write women as people." In my experience, women and men are about 90% similar in their reactions and actions, BUT that ten percent left over can be all the difference between night and day. There *are* women who will pop open the hood on the car and fiddle at the first noise, and men who will spend hours figuring out just exactly what to wear, but the stereotypes exist for a reason.
3943098
[Winces internally]
I'm not saying you're not entitled to your opinion, but this is kind of a problematique thing to say.
3943114 It's just a symptom of the philosophy I tend to gravitate toward.
My thinking here is that it's quite hard to tell someone how to do it "right", especially when "women" is a diverse group comprised of billions of people. Hell, the M6 embody that diversity, with Faust's quote of "There are lots of different ways to be a girl."
But there are wrong ways to go about writing a female character, or at least, common pitfalls for new male writers. Like 3942955 suggested, writing women-creatures. Writing women who are blatantly just R63'd dudebros. Writing women who are painfully stereotypical (yes, Rarity does like stallions, fashion, and makeovers, but she's way deeper than that). Or my personal favorite, blatant cases of Did Not Do The Research (particularly hilarious in clop).
3943011
Every individual person (physically male or female) may demonstrate behaviors and attitudes that would be called typical of one sex or the other according to their own culture. But It's important to keep in mind that these ideas may not correspond exactly (or even partly) to the observer's ideas on gender. The key to making a character both believable and interesting is to at least stay away from the usual stereotypes and respect the character's own internal culture. Even the show misses the mark sometimes: savvy, together Rarity is a far more interesting pony than drama queen Rarity any day as far as I'm concerned, but we rarely see her in episodes unless she's the main PoV character of the episode. Both are still fashionistas, a trait usually associated with females in western culture.
3943114 3943098
Actually... that's another reason this is kind of hard to talk about. In some cases, Georg is right, stereotypes do exist for a reason, just not the ones guys sometimes think.
To used his implied example of women taking a long time getting dressed... I'm one of the least image conscious women I know, a total jeans and a baggy t-shirt girl whenever I can get away with it. But I take forever to get dressed if I'm going out. Because, a lot of guys don't realize this, but women's clothing involves a complex spectrum of "appropriate for different occasions." You have to take into account style, fanciness, sexiness, and weather (indoors and outside.) What you'd wear on a date to the movies often isn't the same as what you'd wear on a date to a concert and you wouldn't wear either of those things to a substitute teaching job or a baby shower. So deciding what, exactly this occasion calls for can involve a lot of trying things on, making sure it's not too sexy/fancy/ conservative/"teenager"/casual/wild/bland...
Guys seem to have a pretty sensible "jeans, khakis, suit" hierarchy, but women don't really have that. It took me three days to pick out my outfits for sitting on panels at BronyCon last year.
So... there are stereotypes that do exist for a reason, but understanding that reason is kind of part of what I was talking about.
3943254
Yeah. Though that aspect of their culture doesn't seem to exist.
Well, except for Rarity.
While I certainly want to write women like women, and men like men, and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri like small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri, I feel the legitimacy of complaints about women being written like men by men is invalidated by the hordes of women being written like men by women, and then being acclaimed for being "strong female characters". Rainbow Dash, for instance.
I'm not saying I care. Just that that line, "how can we write women characters?", is always directed at men. Nobody cares that Rainbow Dash is totes written as a guy.
If there's a real issue, I think it's consistency. Writing a character who fits a gender role smoothly 9 times out of 10, but has weird, unpredictable deviations from it 1 time in 10, is what readers find jarring, I think.
3943320
Amy Keating Rogers mentioned that back in her ANGRY FEMINIST days she wrote a bunch of "Nothing but girls" works, but then she grew up and got over it.
3943254 Three.... days... You know it took me until I was over 40 until I gave serious thought to matching the color of my shoes to my pants. I'll still buy the comfortable shoes that don't match the pants, though, but I think about it.
3943320 Inverting the issue, I'm a little thoughtful about the issue of women writers writing men as women-y ever since I tried reading a couple of the wife's Harlequin romances. (Just for the articles, I swear!) I'm wondering how much of the male character's female-seeming emotional thoughts/actions was projection on behalf of the author-ess, and how much of it was just plain pandering (which is not a *bad* thing when you're writing romance novels for mass distribution, particularly if it pays the rent and buys you a red sports car.)
3942913 It's not the most useful soundbite ever, but it's not as though it's totally useless. I mean, it's a good starting point when it comes to writing a group that you're not a part of. You don't want to make "just write them like people" your battle cry as you put pen to paper (or fingers to keyboard) but it's definitely worth remembering that - specific aspects of culture and subculture aside - at the core they're still people with the same basic wants and needs as anyone else. So at the very least it's good advice as far as a basic guideline, especially for less experienced authors and/or authors less experienced with writing for people in the group in question.
That said, yeah, it's definitely a very limited piece of advice. "Gay people are just people. Write them like people." "Black people are people. Just write them like people." "Russians are people. Just write them like people." "Atheists are people. Just write them like people." Yes, it's true that these people are still people and you should write them like people, but the thing about people is that even if they have a lot of similarities at the simplest and most basic level, they are different in a lot of ways. Distinct cultures and specific individuals within those distinct cultures have differences that aren't just present, but which are in fact vital to their identity.
Just for example: I'm a nerdy white guy. I've had plenty of friends who were African American. I've had several friends who were actually African. There are definitely things that all of us have in common, yes, but there are major differences. There are differences between being an American and an African. There are differences between being an African American and an African visiting America. There are differences between being an African American and a Caucasian American. And those small differences in culture and subculture can play a large role in an individual's behaviors, belief systems, outlooks on life, etc, etc. And even those subcultures can be divided further - a gay white man won't receive the exact same treatment in his overarching culture that a straight one, and neither would receive the exact same treatment as gay or straight women, and all of the above could expect different treatment from different religious groups and subgroups.
When you don't take those differences into consideration it can make them far harder to relate to and far less believable. If you don't take consider Japanese culture, it's easy to write someone that's a middle-class white American wearing Yellow Face. If you don't account for sex/gender, you can easily end up writing a man who happens to resemble a woman. If you don't think about someone's adherence to Buddhism, you might find yourself writing a surprisingly atheistic Buddhist. Or you can go in the complete opposite direction and make them a generic stereotype of that culture. So it's true that an author should keep in mind that they're still people when all is said and done, but actually taking into consideration the differences in their cultures and subcultures that play a key role in their cultural and personal identity is very important as well.
3942955
In general I would agree. Of course, when we're dealing with specific characters who have established backgrounds and personalities (as opposed to the rather broad category of "women"), you have to take that into consideration as well. How people act about certain things, such as being virgins, can also change considerably not just from culture to culture and individual to individual, but also based on who that individual is interacting with. It's pretty normal to be comfortable talking about something with one person or group, but embarrassed to bring it up with a different person or group.
For instance, I really couldn't see Rainbow Dash being embarrassed about being a virgin if she was talking to the rest of the Mane Six. On the other hand, I could see the logic in someone making her come off as embarrassed if she was talking to one of her teammates on the Wonderbolts about it. Not because her personal opinion on being one might change, but rather because of how she thinks that an older and more experienced group of people from a military/athletics culture (a group that she's admired and idolized for years) might view it. Or, for another example, I could see her being totally fine with talking about her sex life with her friends, but I could also see the reasoning behind her being horribly embarrassed if it came up in front of her father. Again, not because her own views on it have changed, but because of how she thinks the ones she's talking with will see it.
So...yeah. It's good to remember that they're all just people at their core, but it's important to remember the distinct features of their different cultures that helped them develop their individual identity, and also to take into consideration their specific personalities and relationships. There's a reason why this kind of question pops up so much in writing circles, and a reason why answers often seem unsatisfying when left as little more than one or two-sentence soundbites. That reason being that, well, there really isn't a simple instant-fix answer. It's a complex issue.
3943304 I dunno. We do seem to see it to at least some degree with a few other members of the Mane Six, just not as often. Mostly I'm thinking about the Grand Galloping Gala episodes. It might not be that they lack that particular trait, and more that it's just not quite as prevalent due to their tendency to not wear clothes most of the time. Then again, we haven't really seen any male characters getting ready for a big celebration like that so it might just be that it's normal for ponies to take forever to get ready for a big event regardless of sex/gender, because to a lot of them it's just a big deal to put outfits like that together in general.
3943320
Someone asked the question at the panel "If everyone in the cast switched genders, how much of a difference would it really make?"
The panelists didn't think it would really matter after some contemplation.
Also, Larson correctly identified Rarity as best pony (and the character he had most dreaded having to write initially, before he realized how awesome the show was).
3943504
I do plan to participate.
3943380 I think the purpose of Harlequin romances is to have unrealistic characters.
3943320
I care, and it's actually something I've considered. The thing with Dash is they couldn't really have done it differently.
In the real world, girls like Dash don't act like that, but it tends to be because they've been raised with a certain set of expectations and activly rejected some or all of them for their own reasons. That's going to be a part of their personality, so a Dash-as-a-real-girl is going to have issues, or a devil-may-care rejection of those issues as a part of her personality, or at least be regularly aware that she's "not like other girls."
But Equestria is set up to not include those things-- even the bullies at flight camp never point out that Dash is a girl, something they definitely would have done in our world. Given that, giving Dash that perspective any more than she has would feel like a straw feminist-- reacting to gender issues that aren't present in the setting. They replaced them with the can't-be-girly-because-Wonderbolts thing, but that has totally different connotations.
So, I tend to give Dash a pass for that reason. But when Merc and I wrote Moonshine, my humanized fic with a more real world setting, it was one of the things I really wanted to address (and with a historic setting it was even more glaring.)
3944065 Good point! I think maybe you've told me this before. Maybe I'll remember this time.
3943589 I was proud of that question, and got exactly the answer I was hoping for.
3942898 More than one panel... not that I was gonna say anything about it. Partially it bugged me cuz TD's keyboard is loud as hell and he was sitting right next to me.
3951177
You could have said something. I don't mind being told off.
And yes, I am a very loud typist. I don't know why. Just the way I learned to type I guess.
It was neat meeting you and hanging out! I had no idea who you were before Everfree Northwest, but it was fun hanging out.
3951240 Mostly I didn't want to say anything during the panel and throw things even more off topic, and after the fact I just never remembered.
Likewise, though. I always love meeting new people at cons, especially in the writing sectors.
3951177
3951240
So does this mean that Titty D's typing is comparable to the German language? Like, it's loud and super angry sounding, but in reality the topic at hand might be something like cute puppies. Or Sweetie Belle hugging things.
Also, I distinctly remember that pic of that old keyboard of yours that super died after a decade of service or something. If you type that loud... well fuuuuuuuuuuuuck. They really built that brand to last, eh?
3942898
FOUND!
*points at Titanium Dragon and a shiny arrow appears over his head*
Yesssssssssssssssssssss. Most excellent. You have done a great service, Super Trampoline. May your pictures grant more insight. And funny things like loud typing.
Wait. Why was Titty D typing? I thought laptops at panels were generally used in lieu of cue cards or whatever.
...Panalists taking notes on fellow panalists as they're doing a panel?
3951795
I was actually taking notes on the stories being pitched to us during Dragon's Den, so that I could look over our suggestions and suchlike and actually remember what we were talking about as we tried to help them with their stories.
3943380
Dude, seriously? You didn't pay any attention to matching colors at all for 40 years of your life? And it didn't get you into trouble?
Bookplayer is totally, completely right that standards for women's clothing are WAYYYYYY more complex than men's clothing. Ugh, trying to find a "business" outfit for interviews that doesn't look "dressy going out to a fancy dinner or party" and isn't a full-out suit, because for a lot of jobs that's so much so "too formal" that it could potentially cost you the job, because it goes so far past "business" that it looks ridiculous... I think women have to be more aware of clothes and such. Apparently not matching colors or anything didn't hurt you...but if you were female, and you wore clashing colors, you'd get funny looks from a majority of people, and people would think you didn't care about much of anything and maybe were a slob. I'm always jealous of the kind of pockets "guy pants" have compared to the minuscule, barely-hold-anything pockets that "girl pants" have, but even though I technically COULD buy "guy pants", they wouldn't make a good impression for anything important.
3966173
I think the problem is that women don't have the "polo shirt + khakis" default that guys do. Guys can just put on a polo shirt and khakis (especially if you iron them) and you're okay for like 99% of environments - it is not so uptight to make you look out of place while being casual, and a lot of people seem to live in them at work (I know I do). Especially on the left coast, a lot of people seem to dwell in them - if not lower.
That said, I don't think most people ever look at people's feet; I know I don't. If you wear a "boring color" (tan, brown, dark blue, black) I don't think people really notice or care (unless you do something stupid like wear sandals or flip-flops or slippers). I couldn't tell you what kind of shoes anyone was wearing at Everfree Northwest. Or, really, much of anything unless it was distinctive - frankly, most clothing kind of blurs together for me.
Maybe I'm weird, but I'm generally looking at people's faces; unless their clothes are particularly distinctive, I'm probably going to ignore them. Then again, I think women pay more attention to clothing than men do generally.
3966173 Hey, in my defense, I'm in good company.
3966236 Actually, living in a college town has its advantages. Shorts and t-shirt season is upon us, soon to be followed by "How Little Cloth Can A Woman Wear On Her Torso Before Being Arrested Or Causing A Traffic Accident" season which follows right afterwards.
3966236
I admit that neutral-colored shoes not exactly matching the clothing isn't really that big of a deal. It can add to an outfit if they do match and you're trying to look really nice or create a particular impression, but it isn't that huge of a deal. It may matter more if you're a fidgety person and are always moving your feet, which would draw eyes to them, but still, not that big of an issue. And I would argue, again, girls/women tend to notice clothes more than guys/men because they've been expected and taught to.
And I have to say, I really WISH women had a default like that. It would be so much easier...
3966278
To be fair, if you mostly just own drably colored clothing, it almost never is going to clash to begin with. Most of the clothing I own is white, tan, blue, dark blue, gray, brown, or black. All the pants I own are tan, dark blue, or black. I have one green shirt (which is ugly and I need to throw it out) and one green pair of pants (which are also ugly). I have a handful of pastel teal shirts.
If you don't wear bright colors, it seems less likely to really draw attention. And white is just kind of a nothing color.
And yeah, I mean, people around town wear t-shirts and shorts or t-shirts and long pants and polo shirts and pants and that's like... it. Some women wear skirts or dresses, I guess.
Though I've never seen girls around here pulling the "how little cloth can a woman wear on her torso" thing. Then again, I'm in Oregon, far away from any beach.