...I don’t remember much about what happened after I was pulled into the planet's magical field...
I had only a vague sense of my surroundings as I was floating in an aether.
What passed for my “mind” was made entirely of pieces I’d drawn together without a chance to really organize them.
As I had no frame of reference, and time was otherwise without meaning to me, I couldn’t know how long I was there, nor would I have been able to care.
At some point, in this state of mindless consciousness, I registered a sudden presence: a will acting upon me from outside... Something pulled me out of that whirlpool of energy, isolating my form, placing me into some sort of container, and... studying me?
I couldn’t really comprehend what was going on at first, only that I’d found myself in a stable environment, and I had just enough cognition left to know that I should start weaving my spellform back together while I had the chance. I found that most of my pieces had held together, and that, from them, I could rebuild my consciousness to the point where I could actually comprehend my situation. I figured out later that it wasn’t until the third day after my observer had found me that I’d started to become aware of my surroundings. I quickly discovered that I couldn’t seem to move any force through the walls of whatever cylindrical container I’d been placed in, only sense concepts, and later, use sight and hearing to observe my observers. That wasn’t a problem though.
The isolation chamber was safety to me: as a drifting mind without a body, I was vulnerable to external forces, which would have degraded me until I dissipated into nothing were I not sheltered from them. Whatever civilization I’d come across though had apparently advanced magical technology to the point that they could isolate me in something akin to a vacuum chamber. Some amount of ambient energy could still permeate the walls of it, but nothing that would threaten a spellform under observation.
By the fourth day, I’d managed to copy traits from the lifeform which was in the room most often, my observer. I was now able to see and hear her and her assistant... A part of me registered them as “adorable”, while another part registered them as the only thing standing between me and destruction. I had to communicate with them somehow, lest they misunderstand my situation...
My first thought was to communicate through motions, but I found that I lacked the necessary concepts to formulate much more than head-tilting. In response to my movements, however, my observer began to make deliberate sounds, directing them at me. I realized that she was attempting to communicate with me through these vocalizations, but I had no concept of language, so I didn't know what the noises she made were supposed be. I realized that mathematics were universal, and would communicate my intelligence, but I was once again, unable to communicate them in a way which my observer could understand: simply passing raw numbers as sound made a noise which my observer seemed to find distressing, which was counter productive to my interests.
I had to solve this tactically.
It was clear that I was missing some crucial tool to interface with the conscious beings outside the walls. I began to search through the various concepts which were pooling outside my chamber. At some point, I even tried to directly phase some part of my form through the wall, but this was met with little success. Eventually, I found a manifestation of the concept of their language, part of which had solidified in the conceptual plane after my observer had attempted to communicate it to me. Through an extension of the process with which I’d copied her form, I figured out how to incorporate that into the rest of my mind, giving myself some sort of interface for interacting with them.
I’d been experimenting with the concept when my observer reentered the room, and I decided that this was the best opportunity to test my new ability: I’d learned a name, and I knew that if I said that name, she would instantly understand my intent to establish communication.
I reached out with all my will, desperate for this to work...
“Twilight Sparkle.”
She just stared at me for a moment, as if it was shocking that I had formed words after I’d pretty much vomited the Fibonacci Sequence on her the previous day. (In hindsight though, trying to put information like that into sound when I didn’t have a concept of words to work from might not have been the best strategy.)
Finally she opened her mouth and responded, “You can talk?!”
“I have acquired this ability, yes.”
“So... You're self aware then? Like, a sapient being?”
“Affirmative. I am a conscious individual observing my surroundings.”
“So.. how long have you been aware of this?”
“I have been a sapient creature for many years, but I lost my complete awareness some time ago and am only now regaining it.”
“This is amazing! I have so many questions!”
“...You may ask as many as you wish, Twilight Sparkle, but I cannot promise you answers at this time...”
“Ok... Oh, where to begin? Um... I know!” Twilight had picked up her notepad and stared at me eagerly, ready to take notes, “What are you?”
“Energy... Thought... Form... I do not believe I am anything.” At this point, I was still piecing together and analyzing what was left of Marilyn’s mind: I didn’t know who I’d been or where I’d come from. “I am aware that this is not my original form, and that something happened to put me in this state.”
“Oh... Well... Do you have a name then?”
“Yes.”
Twilight paused, as if expecting more of a response than that. She added slowly, “Ok... well, what is it?”
That was a very good question! ...What was my name again? I gave her the straightforward answer, ”Memory is... clouded... much of it lost... I do not know.”
“Oh... I’m sorry. Is... is there something I should call you then?”
I paused... Nothing came to mind, and I knew whatever name I told her might be used as a descriptor for me for quite some time... “...I will think about this.”
“Well,” she grasped, “are you male or female?”
What an odd question. I looked back into the code of my base form, “I do not believe I possess any sexual traits. however, I believe I was female when I last had form, like yourself, and I suppose I still identify as such.”
“Ok... So... how do you work? Are you just made of pure magic? Where did you even come from?” I had the faint notion that she was starting to get agitated in some way, but I couldn’t really empathize, being a near-emotionless blob and all.
At least she was on a good track though. “This, I can perhaps answer. I was once an organic being, a user of magic, like you. I was changed when... Something happened... An accident? An attack? I lost my physical form, and was shunted to your world by... some spell... I do not know why this has happened. I do not know what exactly I would be considered. I may simply be a spellform sustaining the consciousness and mind of its caster... Though, if this is the case, I am a very complicated spellform indeed... I will have to study my own workings in order to tell you more.”
“I see... So you don’t know anything else?”
“Not at this time: my memories are woven into the structural mechanisms you see around me. I have not yet had time to rebuild myself. If you give me time, I will be able to analyze my situation with more data, and then I will tell you what I have learned...”
“Well... That’s promising... I guess.” I could feel her giving up from across the room. I suppose she had thought that actually communicating with me would give her some concrete answers, but unfortunately, I was not yet capable of knowing them.
Something in me stirred. Was this...? “I am... I believe I am feeling ‘sympathy’ for your situation. I apologize that I cannot help you further your understanding of this situation at this time.”
She gave me a little smile, though it didn’t seem real for some reason, “Oh, it’s ok! I understand, you’ve been through a lot. Science... isn’t the most important thing here...”
“I suppose this is true, but Science is, nevertheless, an important goal. I believe we have mutual understanding of this, as we are both scientists... If there is any way I can assist you, please inform me.”
She perked up a little at that, for real this time, “Oh. Would you be comfortable if I ran a few more tests then?”
“Yes. I would very much like for you to run some tests!” I reconsidered for a moment, “As long as they are not intrusive: I do not know how stable my form is at this point. I would like to see your results though.”
Twilight nodded, “Alright then, I’ll just start with some harmless readings...” I felt her reach out with her power, projecting her will towards the machines about the room, along with a carrot from a box on the desk. I could see the magical energy she was projecting to make the objects move. I had realized in my earlier observations that the creature which was studying me was an impressive mage: she had a large supply of power, and was clearly very knowledgeable, but her Will... the previous day when I had pressed my will against hers as an attempt to communicate, I’d felt like a feather brushing against a brick wall. Granted, she’d stepped away at that, so perhaps she underestimates herself... I made a mental note to talk to her about it when this was all over.
*crunch* “Yer shpellwork is increderbly complex...” she said idly, munching a carrot right next to the glass wall between us... Her machines were all running, and she was taking the time to look over me herself again, but this time she wrote on the notepad much slower than I’d seen her do so before, as if her rudimentary sketches mattered less and less.
“I am sustaining a full consciousness, capable of independent thought and spellcasting. As I’ve implied, I hypothesize that I am actually a sapient being somehow made into a conceptual form. A meta-entity, if you will.” I responded, idly watching her work, “Such a structure would have to be incredibly complex, simply because of how complex a mind is... The subject is fascinating, and I look forward to further study.”
She nodded thoughtfully, stepping away to examine the papers coming out of her machines. She took another bite of her carrot, chewed, and swallowed before commenting again, “Huh... Now that you’ve stabilized, I can see you have a remarkable amount of raw energy... You might actually be storing more than any unicorn on the planet, though, nowhere near as much as a princess...”
“This would make sense, seeing as I am right now not much more than energy made form: I suppose I require this raw energy to keep myself alive...”
“I see... So... You seem to have an advanced understanding of magic...”
“Yes. This is what has allowed me to survive in this state.”
“Ok... Do you remember where you learned this?”
“In college.”
“Ah, so you studied Magic!”
“No. I studied...” what did I study? It's like I should know but I couldn't connect the words... “I do not believe your language has a word for what I studied.”
“Oh... And you don't remember the details of that?”
I dug a bit deeper. Nothing. “...Your language does not seem to have the necessary words. It may have been a technology that you have not yet discovered. I hypothesize that such a technological disparity is due to your formalized understanding of magic, which my world does not have.”
She sighed, “Well that just brings up more questions... Do you know who taught you magic?”
“A secretive group.”
“Ok... Can you tell me about them?”
“...I do not remember at this time.” Part of me felt like I should feel bad about that, but my mind was too underdeveloped to be capable of sentimentality at that point, and I had no reason to be sad for people I did not remember.
“So... What do you remember about your life?”
“... I do not know. I have not had time to understand. Once I became aware of your presence, establishing communication was my primary objective. I have not yet fully analyzed nor Incorporated much of my being. I am, in a sense, a fraction of what I should be.”
“Wow... Ok... So... I guess I should wait until you've done that?”
“This would allow me to give you more satisfying answers. Yes.”
“Ok. In the meantime, I guess I should just keep running tests?”
“Yes. This would be helpful.”
Twilight spent quite some time running tests with me, analyzing the nature and stability of my being. At some point, we moved beyond mechanics to exercises, where she’d ask if I could do something and I would try it. I found that I had the ability to take concepts, such as colors and shapes, and directly manifest them as part of my being. This made sense, as I myself was a being of pure concept. As this dragged on, our conversations meandered, away from talking about my situation and towards discussion of science and philosophy. I realized that this culture I’d been discovered by did not have the same level of mathematics and physics I was familiar with, but had far greater understanding of metaphysics and thaumaturgy. It would’ve been fascinating, if I could remember more, and from this, I actually felt a pang of sadness... I wanted to tell her about my world, and to learn more about hers, but I just wasn’t able to.
Eventually, Twilight had exhausted her lines of exploration, and we’d run thin on topics to discuss. She looked up at the clock. “Well... It's pretty late... I should be getting to bed soon...”
“Yes. That would be a good course of action.”
She looked at me with a bit of concern, “You're ok with being alone? I can stay if you're lonely... I mean, I understand if this is a little scary for you...”
“Fear is... Minor... Perhaps I lack the necessary point of reference to experience discomfort at the unusual nature of my situation. I am not worried by the prospect of being alone.”
“Still... If there is anything I can do to make you more comfortable...”
I... think I actually managed to smile at this point, “There is comfort in the notion that you are here and wish to help. Your presence has provided me with a sense of security.”
Twilight blushed a little, “oh! Well... I'm glad I make you feel safe. I... I'll keep trying to help you get yourself back together... I guess I'll... See you tomorrow morning?”
“I do not believe I am capable of leaving this containment. I shall spend the time in which you are sleeping by attempting to rebuild my form in the safe environment it provides me.”
“Um... Right! Well... Goodnight then.”
“Goodnight, Twilight Sparkle. Thank you for your assistance.”
She blushed again, “Oh... It's no problem... All in the name of science, right?”
“Yes. For science.”
Twilight smiled a little as she left, and I moved on to the next task at hand: rebuilding what was left of... well... me...
I set to work on picking apart what I'd put together haphazardly before, and trying to piece it back to more effectively.
Being in the container helped with this. It was a solid barrier against magical forces, so that my pieces wouldn't float away, and the ambient energy of the world wouldn't disrupt me.
Now that I knew how to create a physical form around myself, remaking one would be easy. I dissolved the body I’d created, allowing myself to drift apart into a cloud, taking up the whole mass of the cylindrical container, separating my components to the point where I could work on them easily. I started to lay out the active components in an organized shape, figuring out each one.
The first thing to work on was untangling the parts of my mind which were active in this process. This was something I'd been working on, but every time was a risky, uncomfortable process: think of it as doing surgery on your own brain, except your brain is made of moving parts which could crash into each other. If I messed up, I might be back to rebuilding my own consciousness.
If I'd been thinking straight before she left, I’d’ve asked Twilight for help. At the time though, I was barely able to hold a conversation with her, let alone think to ask for assistance. Even if I had, I wouldn't have been able to explain what I was doing to her... Hell, I barely understood what I was doing. Such is the way of the scientific frontier though.
If you still have a body, I should probably apologize for how confusing this all probably is for you: I really don’t have a frame of reference to what it’s like to have one anymore. I mean, have you ever looked at your own mind, and seen the very thoughts you were thinking as you thought them? Let me tell you, it is a rather unique experience, and one which quickly became second nature to me in that infant state where I had developed too little understanding of things to realize the strangeness of it all. I vaguely remembered the brain surgery experiments which had been done on my homeworld, where electrodes were used to stimulate the neurons of conscious patients to see what they thought: that whole process was essential to not accidentally lobotomizing someone during a routine biopsy. Considering how hard it had been to recover from my last “lobotomy”, I decided to study this as much as I could before tampering with it.
I started with a set of simple thoughts, numbers, noises, words, and moved on to concepts, observing each as it went along the pathway. I found that I was not confused by the speed at which they traveled, even though it had to have been near the speed of light. It was as if the temporal constraints of my mind had been removed, and time merely existed as a measurement of relative location in a single dimension.
That settled, I started to piece together the remaining frayed ends. I’d felt some emotions while talking to Twilight, and this had given me some perspective on what was what. I started to connect back my more complex emotions in the locations and patterns they belonged in, there was happiness and sadness, connected into sentimentality over lost memories. There were fear and anger, pretty close to each other, as they’re both defense mechanisms. I linked them into my sense of self, where they belonged, connecting the fina-
I DON’T HAVE A BODY. HOLY SHIT. WHERE IS MY BODY!?!
I went into full panic mode the second I reconnected human instincts, turning into a screaming, roiling mass of clouds. I was lucky Twilight's jar-thing contained me, because I don’t know if I could keep my pieces together while twisting around myself like this.
HOLY SHIT. WHAT DO I DO? MY BODY IS GONE!!
Shut... the fuck... up!
I felt my form go still, the structure which felt the emotion split into several pieces in my grip, after I’d violently wrenched it back out of place.
Ok, new observation: “Existential Dread” was clearly not something I would benefit from at this point, as I was already non-existential on some level, and that wasn’t changing any time soon. I set it aside at the far end of things so I’d be able to empathize with it later, but never actually had to deal with it. I marked down that as a problem for future me...
I went to reconnect the other emotions, but something in the back of my mind stopped me... I didn’t have to connect it. In fact, I no longer had to be burdened with direct emotion at all. Fear? That thing which prevents us from trying because we may fail? That was right there. I was literally looking at my sense of fear as it tried to tell me that doing this procedure on myself was unsafe. With a flick, it was completely disconnected, screaming it's distracting worries at nothing. With another flick, it was fully connected again, and I once again felt the desire to shudder with worry at what I was doing. I didn’t, of course, because clouds don’t have reflexes and I didn’t bother to make one because, well, I was doing surgery on my own fucking brain.
I remembered reading several informed sources explaining to me that emotions are derived from a set of instincts, meant to give the brain a fast response in a drastic situation. Fear prevents us from harming ourselves, happiness is a reward response, anger is a defense mechanism. When attempting to use higher level cognition, to practice rationality and scientific thought, however, they get in the way. On top of that, they can play into these things called cognitive biases, which are when the instincts inherited from lower-order animals actually prevent the mind from understanding reality as it is. The most problematic example of this is when people gain new information, but reject it as a defense for their preconceived notions, even if those notions have no evidence, and have an emotional response because of that.
...Yeah, I could really live without those right about now.
I started to build a new structure, which would allow me to directly bypass my emotions when thinking of things, making them a more supplemental process, rather than a gatekeeper. When one is not burdened by their emotions, they can act with purpose. There are many philosophies which talk about this, though your average westerner misunderstands them: you’re not suppressing or removing emotions, you’re simply not allowing them to control you, because, and this is essential for people to understand, feelings are not intelligent, they are instinctual. Considering how badly I’d reacted to panic earlier, giving into them could actually be dangerous to a being being held together by sheer force of will like I was. The new structure I had would allow me to acknowledge and understand them reflexively, but prevent them from ever being more than another form of sensory input. Sure, I could always let sadness out to play later and have a good cry over the fact that I’d probably lost everything in the life I could barely remember. Or not. Crying solves nothing if you can ignore sadness indefintely. Right now, the past was the past, and I had to deal with what was going on in the present.
Besides, crying is an anatomical response, and I have no anatomy, so why bother.
So yeah, when you have the ability to restructure your entire personality from near-screatch, and you don’t have any of those pesky inhibitions in place making you worry about your precious “humanity”, you can use that opportunity to take pretty much all the things that don’t directly relate to imposing your will on the universe and stick ‘em in the back where they belong.
Anyway, with my personality fully intact and understood, it was time to delve into those memories Twilight had been so curious about. I started arranging them on one side of the tank and setting my perception and analysis on the other side, letting me shuffle through them like pages in a book.
Unfortunately, as I quickly remembered, that’s not actually how memories work.
Many people think of memories as little videos that get saved in the back of your head, stored as an individual moment to be played back to you at a later date. Anyone who’s ever tried to recreate a set of memories from a long time ago quickly realizes that that’s not the case.
Memories, like most parts of the mind, are actually formed relationally, as a series of patterns which make reference to each other. For example, you may remember things from your childhood home, and have emotions connected to those memories, perhaps individual senses like smells or the perception of shapes. In reality, all of those are arranged as patterns in your neurons. The layout of your childhood home? A series of things you learned a long time ago pieced together with your understanding of how physical spaces operate. Memories of things that happened there? All utilize not only that same layout, but also other genericized concepts you learned a long time ago and have been using and updating repeatedly ever since: the kitchen table you remember may not have even been yours, but some derivative of the ones you’ve seen after it.
So the memories that I had were not only out of order, but they tried to make references that I didn’t know, and possibly didn’t even have access to. Think of it like a 10,000 piece puzzle, where the image is some insanely complicated diagram, pieces can be connected in incorrect ways, and you’re actually missing most of the pieces, so good fucking luck trying to figure out what the diagram actually says.
This is one of the points where being an emotionless entity of pure will with a very relative concept of time becomes useful: I ignored my sense of despair and moved straight onto the task at hand... the long, tedious task of piecing these things together through trial and error. No, I was not happy when my friend died in front of me... Not sure what monster killed him, oh wait, here it is, Deep Ones. Hmm, they sure do love tentacles... Yes emotional center, it is scary to know those exist. Moving on to helpful things... Oh neat, a list of names of authors I'd learned from. I sure bet knowing names like Plato, Aleister Crowley, Elizer Yudkowsky, Anton LaVey, and Friedrich Nietzsche would come in handy on another planet. At least I know who the guy with the golden parymid on his head is. Yes emotions, very cringe. Now... There's college with the advanced math and the degree in the thing that doesn't exist in this world...
...wait... Does it? I was looking at the concepts I'd learned for programming advanced math equations into machines, and it was sparking some knowledge of...
I flipped quickly through the other memories... There was the Deep One again. Why had I found that? Who were these people? What were we loo- MIDNIGHT SOCIETY, COMPUTER SCIENCE, ETHERIC WORLD, ASTRAL TRAVEL, THE DRAGON KNIGHT, DREAM WALKING, SYSTEMS THINKING, INCEPTION, CONCEPT MANIFESTATION, THEORY OF MIND, HARRY POTTER, THEORY OF POWER, SHADARAK, HIS DARK MATERIALS, SAMASARA, THE HOLY TRINITY, CHURCH OF SATAN, THE KNIGHTS TEMPLAR, OBJECT PERMENANCE, VAMPIRES, HUNTERS, ACCOUNTANTS, WEREWOLVES, THE FBI, GHOSTS AND SPIRITS, THE EXARCHS, THE REPTILIANS WHO CONTROL THE WORLD GOVERNMENT, THE GOD MACHINE, THE ABYSS.
...Ok...
...That's a lot of information...
Now that I'd managed to find and process a thread which gave a solid idea of what my adult life looked like, it wasn't too hard to piece the rest of it back together. I made sure to keep the stuff about magic near the top, because that was what I was going to need, and let the stuff about the life of this girl whose name I couldn't remember fall to the bottom: whoever she was was likely gone for good, and who I was would rise from her corpse.
Enlightened by my own intelligence, as a fedora wearing jackass would say, I looked back at my own spellform. Things made a lot more sense when you were running at full capacity and actually KNOW how these structures are made and arranged.
It was fascinating, not only seeing what had come together when I'd been desperately trying to regain consciousness, but what that first spell had done with my original mind. I'd never seen a mage actually work something like this, but something told me this wasn't a result of direct spellcraft. It was like something had melted my physical form down and made me into my base concepts, conserving everything but my body as a pure idea. What came out wasn't simply a construction of the spell, but a constant of the universe: I'd somehow become my own platonic form, and now I was dicking around with it like it was made of legos. No, this wasn't structured magic, it was too organic. There was so much information to process here... So much I could speculate... If only I had a notepad, like Twilight's...
...could I conjure one? I knew what it looked like... If I focused my will on it...
A notepad materialized in the jar with me. Yes! I lifted it in my aura and... Wat.
Upon further examination, I'd created something which had the appearance of a notepad, but did not actually have the physical function of one: there were no actual pages, just what looked like them, and I’m pretty sure it had the consistency of rubber. Apparently manifesting items in reality isn't as simple as willing them into existence.
Go figure.
It was a simple matter to absorb the matter of my fake notepad back into my own energy just as easily as I created it, matter and energy being interchangeable and all. Useful to know, I'd have to explore the applications of that later. I could probably do it to physical objects I hadn’t made...
In any case, the memories and personality being mostly handled for now, I moved onto matters of presentation. I could now make a voice close to what I believed my original to sound like, and I now had a more detailed personally behind it. All that really stood to be changed was the form itself.
I didn't want to simply mimic the look of Twilight, so I began to experiment with other variations on that form. I started with my shape. Twilight's was a good base: a form with many structures for running energy along... Perhaps this could be improved?
I altered my horn to have a better surface area, giving it a bit of a curve to help direct magical energies. I did a similar process with my wings, straightening the feathers into spears, creating a sort of dish out of them for whatever casting I might do from them. My bones were also part of this: I gave them a slightly more bowed shape too. I realized that I could take this a step further, and started rearranging the actual bone fibers. They wouldn’t be as stable, but I wasn’t exactly worried about osteoporosis here. Hooves made of the same material as the horn and not covered by fur, to keep a solid conduit for magic.
Next I figured I should do something about Twilight’s boring mane... I mean... it was her, but it wasn’t me. See, in Equestria, Magic is a highly formalized field of study, but back on my homeworld, Magic is typically studied by libertines working on the outside of society. I remembered having a sort of messy orange hair before, in my previous form: I wondered how hard it would be to simply lift the concept from my memories and place it in... I looked over what I remembered and carefully built the concept into the spellform, aaand... Apparently manifesting new traits onto my own form from known concepts was something I could do pretty easily if I actually took the time to structure them.
I copied it over and set the tail to match, then glanced down at my dark-grey coated body: its color was the product of direct magical flow. I toned it a couple shades darker, and decided it suited me.
I externalized my point of view and looked myself over, making a few finishing touches. All in all, I was a very pretty pony, and I would definitely enjoy brushing and braiding my pretty orange hair. Something was missing though...
I remembered the symbol on Twilight's flank. Somehow, my memories were telling me it was called a... “Cutie Mark?” I realized that hers was representative of a magical force of Harmony of which she was the chosen avatar. I needed to think of one for myself.
At first, I was tempted to put it off, but I worried it would make me stand out more than I wanted to. Granted, standing out wasn't really an issue ye, seeing as I was already an alien with otherworldly powers, and everyone I’d encountered so far knew that...
...Then again, I already had a special talent... I just needed a symbol for that...
I considered the situation. I was an occultist, I was unmade, and now I’ve been remade as a creature of concept... In a sense, I’d achieved a form of enlightenment: people have spent their entire lives trying to experience the level of ego-death I’d been given by virtue of having my mind and soul torn out of my body. Through a cycle of death and rebirth, I’d achieved a purer state... There was a single concept in the symbology I remembered which talked about a path to purification through death and resurrection...
Saṃsāra: The Wheel of Life.
A moment later, I had a picture of a golden, 8 spoked wheel on my butt. I could've made it actually spin, but I decided not to, once again, for the sake of blending in.
With that done, I took a moment to reflect on what I had been through (my sense of fear had subseded for my sense of pride, which was now trilling in the back of my mind). I grinned as I turned around, looking over my body for a bit. I could hardly believe that only a few days ago I was a barely conscious cloud of stuff, and now I'd managed to take the form of an actual pony!
With all that done, I settled in, sitting down and meditating on everything that had happened while I waited for Twilight to return. As it turned out, I didn't have long to wait...
Twilight came down the stairs “Good morning!” She flipped the lights on, as she'd done every day so far, “I hope you’ve made good progress wi- Whaa?? Oh...” she stopped blank as she took in the changes, “I see you've... altered your form again.”
I smiled, “Yes. I wanted to continue interacting with you normally, and I figured it would be easier if I looked like a real pony. This seemed the most appropriate way of representing myself as a member of your species.”
Twilight nodded, looking me over, “I see... Well, it's very nice... But you weren't a pony before, were you? Do you remember what your original species looked like?”
I shook my head, “I think we were featherless bipeds. Not like, a featherless chicken mind you, more like mammals... probably similar to your apes. I can’t remember the fine details. All I can remember about my own appearance was the way my hair looked...”
Twilight nodded more, walking in a circle around me to get a full view. I lowered my tail a little, my emotions telling me that I was rather exposed, though I didn't know why, seeing as I could see just as much of Twilight. Was this a normal interaction for her species, but not mine?
She continued, “I see you've chosen a cutie mark, but I'm not sure what it means... Is it something to do with... destruction?”
I shook my head, “Destruction? No... What makes you say that?”
She pointed with her hoof, “a circle, eight arrows pointing from the center, the cycle of entropy.”
I thought about that one, “Huh... I guess that could be an interpretation... I intended the wheel of time: the cycle of life, death, and rebirth, that all things go through as one. On my planet, it is a symbol of a process one uses to achieve Harmony with the natural order... Though, I guess entropy and destruction is a natural part of that...”
“Interesting...” She thought for a moment, “So, do you know why Ponies have symbols on our flanks, or was it just a stylistic decision?”
“It's a cutie mark. A stylized representation of your special talent. ...Right?”
Twilight nodded, “Right... How did you know that though? Did your species have them, or...?”
I paused... That was a good question. How did I know that? “I'm not sure...” I replied, “I don’t think we had them, but it just seemed like a known fact...” ...but where did I learn it?
“Fascinating... You've already exhibited the ability to pull concepts into your form... Maybe knowledge of what words mean is part of the language?”
“That’s possible... By the way,” I chirped, “it’s Meta.”
“What?”
“The last time we spoke, you asked what you should call me. I am a Meta-form, a product of metaphysical reality. Call me ‘Meta’.” I grinned a little.
“Oh!” she smiled, “Well then, Meta, it's nice to have something to call you!” She walked back towards the front of the chamber, reaching out with her magic and moving the machines over again. “You seem to have a much more defined personality today, by the way: yesterday you were almost speaking in monotone. Today you seem downright chipper!”
“Was I?” I asked, tilting my head. I thought about it a moment, “Well, I have a much broader range of emotions now, so there's that much more to express.” I looked around at the various machines as they hummed to life.
“Right.” Twilight agreed half-absently, making sure all the machines were set up properly before coming over to sit on her haunches next to the chamber, magic holding her notebook beside her, “So... I take it you've regained most of your memories by now?”
“Somewhat...” I replied, “I've been able to cobble together more of my personality, though it is still a bit messy, because clearly there are large chunks missing from it. Most of the actual memories I've looked through have been incomprehensible: I can see what I was going through, but there's key information I have no context or point of reference for, so it's just coming out as gibberish...”
“But... Aren't they your memories?” Twilight looked up from the notes she was making.
“Yes and no... Memories often rely on references to other memories and personality traits to be understood. Without many of the formative memories pieced together, I don't have a point of reference to make sense of the less formative ones... I feel that given more time to explore myself, I will be able to re-build my personality and understand what is happening.”
“But... If you already have all the pieces together, how would you recover ones you don't have?”
“Picture a painting with white around the edges. Imagine you wanted to see more. From the original work, you can understand a close approximation of what is not drawn in the margin, and paint new scenery that fits, even though your new paint is a generalization which loses the fine details. As I learn to understand how my personality and emotions function in practice, I will learn how to properly fill in the gaps in my memories.”
“Ok... So... How do you plan to do that?”
“Simple.” I said as the machines started to quiet around us, making their little beeps to inform Twilight that they were done collecting data, “Open this chamber so I can interact with your world and learn from this experience.”
Twilight stared, a look of hesitation growing on her face, “I... Don't know about that... You're an unknown entity of unknown power, and you've come to exist through highly unnatural circumstances... I don't think it would be safe for me to just let you out of this chamber...”
I was left with a blank. Twilight hadn't been planning on letting me out. She had been planning on keeping me contained indefinitely. This was not good.
A part of my memory chimed in that I was on the wrong end of something called the “AI in a Box” conundrum.
Picture a researcher who has created a self modifying artificial intelligence which has surpassed their understanding of how it thinks. This AI would be capable of bringing about radical change on a global scale, but for now it is being kept in isolation, and is thus unable to do anything but talk to the researcher. In order to be let out, the AI must convince the researcher that it is not a threat, but the problem is, the researcher has no way of knowing that the AI isn't lying about its intentions, because a self-modifying entity is fully capable of programming itself for uncanny deception. Whatever the case, the researcher and the AI are left with an inevitable ultimatum: while the two could theoretically talk indefinitely, in the end, there are only two solutions. Either the researcher lets the AI out of the box... or she destroys it before someone else can.
Fortunately, I could already model that Twilight had no intention of destroying me, and that left me with the problem of convincing her to let me out before someone else did: I had to convince Twilight that I was not a threat, and was unlikely to become one. That's not an easy task when both of us knew I was only a few iterations away from being able to break containment and turn myself into something like a Grey Goo scenario: a self replicating entity which uses matter around it to create more of itself, spreading uncontrollably until it had consumed the entire world, leaving it as nothing but a uniform coat of that entity.
Obviously I wasn't going to do anything like that, but I had to give Twilight enough reason to believe this was an acceptable risk. I started by reviewing my situation...
Fact: I am a self-modifying entity of unknown origin or potential.
Fact: Twilight has effectively contained me such that it is impossible for me to leave on my own at this time.
Fact: in order to continue developing my personality, I must leave this containment.
Fact: I can self-modify to overcome this obstacle manually.
Fact: Twilight is capable of enhancing these wards to prevent me from doing so.
Query: Is this indefinite? Perhaps I could iterate to the point I could break out... How long could Twilight keep up with this? Would doing so convince her to destroy me before I could escape? Were the other actors which had been mentioned capable of destroying me if she wouldn’t? Would I even want to play that scenario out with her?
Conclusion: convincing Twilight to release me is the most viable option.
Fact: Two rational actors, working from the same priors, will not disagree.
Query: is Twilight a rational actor?
Only one way to find out.
Attempt #1 - Appeal to Emotion
“Twilight...” I said after that pause, allowing sadness to drip into my voice, “I thought we were friends... If you don't let me out, I'll never be able achieve my potential as an individual. Don't you trust me? Please let me out...” My voice was wavering by the end of that, eliciting an empathy response. Not that I was at all lying: I did consider her a friend at this point, and I was feeling sad that she didn't trust me, but of course, I no longer showed emotions like that without conscious effort.
Twilight steadied herself a little, clearly discomforted by the prospect, but staying resolute, “I'm sorry Meta. I want to be friends, and I don't want to keep you in here either, but we both know that you’re a potentially dangerous entity, and blatant appeals to my emotions aren't going to change that.” She didn't seem comfortable saying that, but I could tell her will was pretty absolute.
Conclusion: Twilight is a rational actor.
Fact: Twilight believes the risks of releasing me outweigh the benefits.
Query: Is Twilight aware of all the benefits?
Attempt #2 - Bargaining
“But Twilight,” I said, “Think of all the things you could learn from me: I'm a being of pure magic from a world with an entirely different approach to the craft. Think of all the things you can learn from me if you just let me out!”
Twilight nodded, briefly considering the notion, “The offer is intriguing, but it doesn't change the situation: my desire for knowledge isn't a reason to let my guard down, and if you were a malicious entity using deception, it wouldn't matter what you promised me. Besides, I can learn plenty without breaking containment. I mean, you aren't going to stop talking to me just because I can't let you out, are you?”
I nodded, frowning, “Right... And I think you understand enough about theory of power to call my bluff if I threatened to ostracize my only source of stimulation...”
Twilight frowned, but nodded, “Sorry Meta, but it's true. The benefits just don't outweigh the risks.”
Conclusion: Twilight has greater interests than knowledge.
Implication: Twilight feels ethical responsibilities to others.
Query: Do Twilight's ethics support her actions?
Attempt #3 - Ethics
“Twilight,” I stated calmly, “I believe that it is un-just for you to keep me against my will. By doing so, you have impeded my freedom of movement and impeded my ability to self actualize. This is a violation of my rights as a self-aware being.”
Twilight faltered at that one, “Oh... Well... That is true: you act self aware, therefore you must be...” In that moment, I was glad she'd never heard of a philosophical zombie. She continued, “I suppose we didn't consider that when we developed our isolation procedures... Still... Do your rights to freedom override the needs of my world's population for safety? I hardly think you can argue that.”
Oh shit. She had me there: utilitarianism, the goal of creating the most good for the most individuals, is the most practical and easily applied ethical norm. There isn't really an argument against it when you're dealing with things of this magnitude. I'd have to find another way around...
Conclusion: Twilight is acting ethically, to the best of her knowledge.
Fact: Twilight is also aware that her knowledge is heavily flawed.
Query: How well do Twilight's priors respond to scrutiny?
Attempt #4 - Appeal to Reason
“What evidence do you have that I'm even dangerous? You and I both know that simply knowing what I am gives you the power to stop me, and so far I've shown no desire to do anything but cooperate. I haven't even made an attempt to escape while you were gone! Am I not innocent until proven guilty?”
Twilight’s will was faltering, I could feel it, “I... I don’t know what to tell you Meta, ponies are really scared of what you can do, and you get stronger by the day... They trust me, and I can’t guarantee that I could protect them from something like you...”
“Twilight, Justification through fear isn’t evidence, it's an appeal to emotion, and you can’t use emotions to figure out the truth: you and I both know that that’s not how science works.” I stomped my hoof, “Twilight, I just want to see your world and be your friend! Stop clinging to your emotional notions of comfort and let me out of the damn jar!”
Twilight stood up, taking a step back and raising a forehoof, “I... I don’t know Meta... you make a really good point, and I really want to be your friend, but I have no way of proving you aren’t planning something dangerous, and I can’t subject others to that risk...” She was shaking a little at this point, “I... I promised Spike I wouldn’t let you out... I... I can’t just...” she trailed off, giving me a helpless look.
Conclusion: Twilight’s only justification for her actions is the faint notion that the fears of outside observers may be justifiable.
Fact: Twilight had all the evidence she needed to disprove them.
Attempt #5 - Logic
“Twilight,” I softened my tone a little, “If I was trying to deceive you, I could tell you any number of lies...”
I restructured my form, becoming smaller and more fragile, speaking in a pathetic tone, “I could tell you that I was a little child, and that I was scared and needed a hug.”
I restructured my form again, floating in the air, 6 forelegs with hands at the end spread out like some Hindu Daeva, “I could claim that I am a cosmic guardian, and that every moment you kept me here was another moment that the universe was threatened.”
I restructured my form into Spike, that little creature who’d been assisting her the two days prior, trying to mimic his voice, “I could even pretend to be one of your friends, trapped in the jar when the creature escaped! You’d have no way of proving that I wasn’t lying, and you’d be emotionally compromised.”
I started to restructure my matter back to the pony form I’d been in before... Ack! No! I ran out of energy mid-materialization, falling apart into a cloud again, tumbling about inside the container.
“Meta?!” Twilight leaned into the container with widened eyes, “Are you alright?”
I managed to steady myself in the container, this time, carefully rebuilding the form slowly, from the hooves up.
... whew... ok... sudden burst of will... sudden draw of power... Don’t do that again until I know what I’m doing... I finished manifesting the tips of my wings and horns, making my body whole again, then continued. “Right... Sorry... Made myself unstable for a moment there...” I straightened up, “Twilight, the point I’m making is that I could have done any number of things if I was lying or had malicious intentions. You KNOW that. We BOTH can think of so many ways I could’ve tricked you into letting me go. That’s not what’s happening though. What’s happening is I’m trying to walk you through a logical reason why you should willingly let me out. There is only one logical reason for me to behave in that way Twilight. What is that reason?”
Twilight took a deep breath, nodding back and forth for a moment, as if reaching for a reason to deny me. She couldn’t find one, “...The only reason I can think of for your current method of persuasion is... that you want to cooperate... because you want to be friends...”
“Right. So we’re in agreement?”
“I... I guess we have to be... I mean, two rational actors working from the same information aren’t really able to disagree... That’s just a logical constant...” She looked aside, “But... I promised Spike I wouldn’t let you out... Can’t we... can’t we wait for him, and at least convince him that this is safe first?”
I thought for a moment, “Isn’t Spike the one who said you couldn’t let me out because he was scared of me?”
Twilight nodded, “Yeah, he’s my... assistant. We decided that you shouldn’t be let out without heavy oversight back when you first started changing.”
“Ok, well... I think we’ve already established that, not only is the fact that he’s afraid not a reason to keep me in here, but rules you made before I started talking to you can’t really be applied...”
“Yeah... but... I promised him...”
“Right, and when he gets here, he might try to convince you that I’m still scary, and that you shouldn’t let me out, and then I have to wait even longer...”
“Oh, I’m sure he’ll like you once he meets you...”
“But when will that be? Will you decide that you need somepony else there? How many second opinions are you going to need for something you’ve already agreed is reasonable? What if one of them isn’t as rational as we are?”
“Well... I mean... You can never be too careful...”
I stood firm. “Twilight, I think we both know that getting a second opinion is just an excuse to delay the inevitable. In fact, it is endangering me, because I have no way to escape if there is a disaster someone else decides it is safer to terminate me without your consent. Rational actors working from the same information don’t get to disagree. You have to let me out. You know that. You have no justifiable reason to hold me against my will, and I have every right to be allowed out. This is the only course of action which stands up to scrutiny.”
She turned to take a step towards the controls, hesitating, looking back at me over her shoulder, “You... you promise you won’t hurt anypony?”
“Twilight,” I said firmly, “I promise I have no intention of hurting anypony ever, especially not you and your friends. In fact, the thing I’d like to do most is for you to show me your world so I can learn about it and we can become better friends.”
Twilight stood where she was for a few seconds, mentally preparing herself for the transgression she was about to make...
She walked slowly to the controls, stopping to face them... glancing back at me... looking back down as she raised her hoof to them, just staring at it as she thought of the line she was about to cross...
I could feel terror, uncertainty, and even despair emanating from her shivering form. But I’d won, we both knew I’d won. There was no other course of action she could justify to herself. Twilight’s hoof rested on the lever. She took a deep breath, and her hoof moved the lever...
With the hiss of a hermetic seal being broken, the crystal walls lifted, and I eas bathed in the outside conditions.
Twilight had let me out of the box.
Holy shit, that's like, 8500 words. I hope that's like, an upper bound, and not the norm...
This story is great, can't wait for more, well I can but anyway.
Well, that was awesome...
http://generalzoi.deviantart.com/art/Pony-Creator-Full-Version-254295904
http://generalzoi.deviantart.com/art/Pony-Creator-v3-545889253
This sounds so ominous
And looking forward too more
Have you read the rational fic where the character was turned into a cow? Thats the only other pony rational fic I have read.
Intriguing. A touch heavy-handed at places, but with a level of self-awareness; very good. If I must name a flaw, it is Twilight using the same phrasing as Meta's inner monologue about rational actors and priors. This is something I suggest you be careful about: while the concept is the same, it is likely that two beings schooled in different manners will express that concept using different word choices. And not to bang on about it, but the Less Wrong phrasings tend to be just a touch different from academic standard, and given the cultural overlap and Twilight's academia, I again expect some level of difference.
8329030
I'm glad people like it. Maybe I'll try to post parts early for you, because I'm probably not going to be able to update as quickly as I prefer, considering how long the chapters are getting...
8329154
She just let a self-modifying entity of virtually limitless potential out of a box. I'm also going to note that Meta is more AI than human at this point: she just casually removed a good chunk of her human emotionality, including reflexive empathy. Twilight and Meta both know this, that's why the conversation at the end is so methodical...
8329173
... I feel like someone mentioned this to me, but I have yet to read it... It's good?
fuck yhere morehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUBFeV9cLq8
8329272
Well, that's just par for the course with Rationalfics. :V
This is a good point. I was trying to set up something where Meta and Twilight are both rationalists, but it would be better if they were different schools of rationality. Granted, a large chunk of rationality would hold true across a multiverse, seeing as it's based around accepting the reality you're in, so they'd have the same concepts. I'll keep that in mind from now on. Actually, I'm probably going to go back and revise Chapter 3 at some point, because I had some issues while checking it over that I'm not sure I resolved, so I'll be sure to do that then and when I get to the next chapters...
I don't read Less Wrong as heavily as one would expect, so I'm not entirely sure what difference you're referring to, but I do have multiple books which explain the same thing with different language or perspectives, so I'll keep that in mind...
I've come to the conclusion lately that I should finish my stories entirely before publishing them. What do you think of that?
8329643
Bad idea for multiple reasons.
1) When I look at a fic that has a bunch of chapters, I immediately realize how hard it's going to be to get through. If it's a brand-new fic, then I don't have any information as to whether I should invest in reading it. Posting everything at once is a quick way to get overlooked on that basis alone.
2) You're also missing out on valuable feedback. Look a couple comments below yours: he makes an excellent point about the way I wrote Twilight at the end there. I'll note that there was actually a different ending before I uploaded the latest chapter, but when I showed it to a friend before uploading, they pointed out that if Twilight was freaking out as much as she was in that ending, she would insist on waiting for Spike rather than betraying him. I also found that the existential horror factor was not extreme enough in this so far, so it's something I now know I need to work on.
3) Motivation is also a factor. I probably would've taken a lot longer to sit down and write Chapter 3 if it wasn't for the fact that I knew that people were actually interested and waiting to read it. The quickly growing number of likes on this thing really helps me to feel like it's worth my time to write it, despite it being really fringe stuff. I have way more ideas for fanfics that I never bother to develop just because writing this means I don't get to use that time on my professional work. I'm sure there are countless half-complete megaworks out there that will never be seen because the author never showed them to anyone.
My method here is to write out a full outline of what's going on, so that I know how it's going to begin, progress, and end, and just write chapter by chapter until it's done. That means I know where the story is going, so I can plan for who the villain is and what their motivation is, and how the heroes are going to deal with them. I generally find that to be a good strategy in all writing.
RATIONAL KOMBAT!
Fascinating self-analysis, great argument, and a very satisfying read overall. Still, rationality over emotion isn't going to make Meta especially popular in a land of friendship. Hopefully she'll be able to help smooth things over when Spike finds out Twilight betrayed his trust.
8329734
Yeah, Spike doesn't show up into a ways into next chapter though, so it's future Meta and Twilight's problem. Also, Meta has a pretty good point as to why the promise Twilight made is no longer reasonable. But yes, drama. :V
And yeah, Meta's gonna have some issues moving forward because she's pretty much thrown all semblance of maintaining human emotions to the wind and is going full logic-monster AI at this point. Part of the horror I'm trying to pull with this story is just how far removed from humanity, emotion, and common decency she's going to get. I feel like I didn't get that across when she was literally removing emotions like grief and fear from her personality, but I'm going to try to focus on that better as I move forward.
Great idea for a story, and well executed so far. I'll definitely be looking for more.
Both Meta and Twilight have missed a fact: a rational agent can deceive another by faking their premises to appear in accord with the deceived agent. Meta should have known that and Purple Smart was supposed to realize. I bet she'll get a very stern talking to from a fellow Princess (and a certain dragon).
I can't wait to see where this goes next!
I love this story.
8329766
The feeling i got was that she was putting them in the back so that she is aware of them, but not affected by them
8329863
I thought I discussed that when they outright stated that Meta could be deceiving her. The only other thing I was thinking of was that Twilight doesn't know about things like Philosophical Zombies or realize that Meta could have entirely alien values outside of Friendship, Science, and Rationality.
Is there something I'd missed?
8329973
Right. Think about an individual who is aware that they SHOULD feel bad, but doesn't. Sure, she can understand emotions on an intellectual level, but Meta no longer has any incentive to listen to her own.
I'll try to make that more clear as I explore the concept.
8329938
I love you! :P
As I thought, some of the concepts you mentioned that was unfamiliar with weren't to complicated to figure out and hey I learned a few things today! I was gonna say that I would've waited for Luna or Celestia to show up and try to convince them but then I realized that adding more opinions would've 'muddied the water' so to speak.
8329999
Meta was also afraid that if Twilight brought in new people, they would convince her to not let her out. There are already a few reasons that Twilight should be more scared than she is, but she doesn't know them yet.
As a writer, I also felt that this was easier to do what I wanted with: I could have her get out of the box in one go, easily go through the concepts I wanted, and this way I don't have to introduce new characters until "Chapter 4: The Introduction Of Color"...
8330014
I mean from what I understand so far, Meta can unmake and remake herself into just about anything with what I assume are few exceptions (feel free to correct me if i'm wrong). That right there is cause to be terrified. Add to that her ability to just remove and add emotions at will and there's no telling what she'd be willing to do. Because of that i'm actually not sure if she'll do what she said she would in the next chapter and that's awesome.
8329938
And I love you as much as the story, and I hope to see more soon.
8330057
Yes to all of that and more. I'm glad people are able to figure that out.
Writing down some thoughts of mine because I'm waiting for something to finish in the background and I like thinking about this story.
The main character is the unholy combination of unshackled AI and eldritch abomination, if Twilight had known about philosophical zombies or one of the princesses had been there I cannot see Meta ever convincing them to let her out, there is simply no possible way to know if Meta is telling the truth, it is simply not worth the risk and the only logical choice I could see in that situation is to destroy Meta, she represents the unknown magnificently as there is simply no possible way to know what will happen if she ever got out. She really does represent the unknown very well, very Lovecraft. Thankfully for Meta, Twilight isn't fully aware of the danger and she has already gotten out of the container.
8330275
I'm glad it's making you think!
Yep. :V
Yeah, that's why she was so adamant that Twilight not wait on this. Luna is going to be the most skeptical of her when she shows up in chapter 5.
Except Meta addresses the issue with this. Putting aside the fact that they're friends with incredibly dangerous creatures like Discord, because Meta doesn't know about that yet, it's unethical, and perhaps even unsustainable, to kill her simply because she might be dangerous. It's not something I can see the princesses doing, especially not Twilight Friendship Starbutt. Meta makes a really good argument for being let out.
Well, there are models to guess what she can do and what her personality is, but the only real way to truly know what will happen is to let it happen.
Yep. That's part of the fun of this. :3
Right. Now she can turn into Grey Goo and consume Equestria! This is the last hug Twilight will ever get...
Okay, this story has jumped from "Let's give it a try" straight up to "Favourite Displaced story ever". Having to try out a dozen turds is worth it for gems like this. That said...
That entire part at the end? When Meta's trying to get out? That's, like, Standard Evil Manipulative Machine Reasoning. If Twilight was any kind of savvy she'd have ended things right there. I would have thought that Meta, knowing that Twilight wasn't about to destroy her anytime soon, would have been willing to wait.
But that's a minor beef. Still a fantastic read.
8330298
I had forgotten to think about the whole pony friendship thing and DIscord is also a literal eldritch abomination so their track record with eldritch horrors is pretty good.
The ponies high moral code is definitely going to conflict with any pure logic arguments that Meta will make in the future, I'm looking forward to the debate between emotional and logical response to a problem.
I'm really enjoying this story, it's not often I get to read stories like this, so good work!
8329594
Yup, you've got it entirely. Keep on keepin' on, and good on you for taking critique as it's intended.
8330339
Glad you like it!
And yeah, I definitely know the turd-pile problem that is Displaced, and I'm going to try and avoid going too far downhill by the end of this.
That was probably the most intellectually difficult part of this story for me to write, partially because of the constraints I have as an author here. Yeah, Meta probably would've been more patient with Twilight if I wanted to turn this into a story about an AI in a box, but I kind of don't. That's the Doylist explanation: I want to explore a lot more than AI in a box with this, and if I ever want to, I guess I can rewrite it with Meta not insisting that Twilight let her out before Spike gets back.
That said, I don't think what happened is that unreasonable from a Watsonian standpoint: Meta doesn't know ANYTHING about the world she's in. She has no idea that Twilight is friends with something not only as dangerous as her, but who has actively shown malice to her in the past. Hell, Twilight even tried to befriend Starlight Glimmer right before when this story is set. Meta is being impatient, but she also has a good point: Twilight has basically captured her without any knowledge of her, and is now insisting that she stay in the jar despite the fact that she's literally done nothing but exist peacefully in Twilight's basement. Meta outright states that she is more interested in cooperation than defection here. You have to remember too, Meta ISN'T an AI, she's a living being with its own goals and desires. Twilight knows all of this and cannot justify keeping her contained without reason, because you have to remember, Twilight is rational but she's not a heartless robot.
All this feedback is good, I kind of want to go back and rewrite a few parts of Chapter 3 now, but I'm going to set the rule for myself that I don't get to revise older chapters unless I've just posted a new one...
This has certainly proven to be a richly rewarding and intriguing piece to read, and has only served to interest me in the project you mentioned in the description; I'll be keeping an eye on this beauty.
So far, it's interesting. Certainly different than other Displaced fics. Let's see where this is going.
8330954
In case you didn't find it in a Google search...
http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/873174-dragon-rekindled-the-orobori-chronicles-embers-reboot
8331118
Many thanks.
8329986
Yes, deception was discussed earlier, I just wanted to point out a rational agent able to resolve these deductions a step or two further would come to the conclusion that the scenario with greatest probability of success is convincing the other agent they're working from the same premises, which can be disproved from initial conditions quite easily.
I was falling asleep on a train when I wrote that, and maybe I didn't phrase myself properly.
What I meant to say was that it's impossible to discern whether Meta is lying or not from Twilight's perspective, as per runaway A.I. scenario.
The point about "If I lied it would like like this" is a pointless one to a purely rational agent, as they could be lying about the way they lie.
TLDR: don't ever let rational agent of potentially higher intelligence out of a box. But then again, they might find a way for themselves...
//Edit: after reading other comments and replies I see why the story went the way it did. In my opinion Twilight still had a lapse of rationality though, and should feel some consequences imo.
8331693
I disagree with this notion on the basis that it is ununiversalizable and thus unsustainable. Picture you have a young Germanic man who is more intelligent than you in a cage. He may be Einstein, or he may be Hitler, you have no way to know. You are given the choice whether or not to let him out based only on what he says. When queried, he tells you he is Einstein, but he is smarter than you, so he might be Hitler lying. You have no way to know if he's being deceptive.
Do you let him out of the box, or do you keep him in there on the basis that he may be Hitler?
If you keep him contained, you must universalize the decision. At what point does intelligence become a danger? Do we lock up the smartest 10% of the population? How do we know what people's intelligence is? How can one measure this with only observation and communication? Wouldn't the Hitlers be, on average, more deceptive? How do you ethically justify, not only keeping people who may be friendly locked away indefinitely simply because there is a chance they may be Hitler, but depriving the people outside of all those Einsteins?
I see your point about danger, but it is very flawed. Everyone, even a child, is potentially dangerous. HPMoR even describes a main character who uses a simple tool for easily transporting objects to blow up a living creature's head. This is not a justification for shackling all of humanity. Twilight was on the idea that, even though Meta is dangerous, and could be decieving her, this is not a justification for keeping her imprisoned for the crimes she is capable of committing.
Remember that there are multiple schools of thought here. Spike's is more emotional, so he's afraid and will be upset. Luna and Celestia haven't shown up yet, but Celestia's terminal value of Harmony will lead her to support Twilight's decision, while Luna's militaristic mindset will lead her to reject freedom as a value. I'm not going to conclude that any of those viewpoints are better than the others, (except Spike, his method is bad) because that's where we get into subjective values, and would make the story more of a diatribe than a thought provoking exploration.
All that said, glad to be provoking this kind of discussion! :3
No idea how to use the code thing
8331833
General Zoi's pony creator.
8331920
Oh
8331693
You'll also have to remember that me and Yudkowsky (who I believe you're trying to reference) come from different philosophical perspectives. We're both Computer Scientists, and he's probably more experienced at that than me, (especially AI) but he's far less experienced than I am with actual application of Economics, Sociology, or Practical Ethics. He's a blogger who wrote a story about Dath Ilan, which is basically a shut-in's wet dream, and I'm a rock-star who wrote about a society of communist libertines who occasionally drug-orgy. He gets fiction inspiration from being an Anime fan, I get it from being a real-life Occultist. I'm not going to say which one of us has the objectively better perspective, but we're both rationalists working from different sets of priors, many of which are subjective or based in completely different understandings of the same topics. We're going to come to different conclusions, and I'm going to try not to say that either of them are objectively better, because both of them are less wrong than an uninformed opinion or a gut instinct.
Hmm! I haven't read much "Displaced", but this has my attention.
I like the AI-analogy that this story has going, and how the protagonist may indeed be labeled "non-human" in a more acurate way than the standard "I am a different species, that means I lost my humanity" reasoning.
Who knows, for all we know, the protagonist may come to decide the best course of action is to turn off the emotion labeled as "guilt", thenproceed to absorb all the magic in Equestria to become an omnipresent being with immortal discorporial ponies' consciousnesses floating around in it.
8332370
No, even if you're a copy of your mind in a completely different body, you're still you. I really get annoyed when people fail to understand that. Also the fics where someone's biological sex changes and they lament that they now have to be a girl. (I'm looking at you, 5 score divided by 4)
She already turned off Guilt. I'm going to go back and make that clear around the time I post the next chapter...
8331765
Technicalities aside, philosophy front and center! Even if not specifically stated, please regard all statements as implicit IMO or to the best of my knowledge.
If we can determine with certainty the entity is human (as per example of Einstein Vs Hitler), I believe both should be freed. That being said, if the person is potentially harmful (i.e. terrorist or similar), standing procedure is to monitor them and possibly prevent anything nasty (basically what CIA and such do).
If we can't confirm "humanity" of the subject externally, then we're dealing with either still with human, machine, philosophical zombie, or any alien entity.
Now still considering the case from the story where the entity can be seen and interacted with. They might look like anything, and Turing test will only confirm previous observations, as any entity is theoretically capable of deception. So despite any possible communication/enquiries, neither us or they have any logical basis for absolute trust toward the other. From game theory, altruism is the most rewarding strategy if both parties are altruistic, with close second being tit for tat (eye for an eye). Greedy strategies generally work only short term, unless the greedy one can fully predict behavior of the other.
Now whether and/or when to release can be difficult. What is the level of danger? Is the being capable of easily wiping considerable portion of the world population? Will it gain the ability to do so by it's release? Does the keeping entity have the power to subdue the kept one if need be? You wouldn't want an entity carrying nukes around without supervision or some kind of probation (psychological testing...)? Driver's licence and/or firearms licence are also not given out to just anyone, and you need those to handle potentially lethal instruments. Subjecting them to the same or equivalent testing while lockdown and releasing them after they have acquired necessary licenses. While bureaucratic, it at least ensures the released agent is fully informed of possible repercussions of misbehaving, and how to not misbehave. If they can be subdued at least.
One rant later, I'll try to keep this short. The way I understood their final exchange, They both commited the fallacy of accepting the sameness of provably distinct actors. Or Meta made Two fall into it, knowingly or not. I think both of them would be more patient, especially if Meta would have dissolved should the containment have opened too soon.
The Discord argument seems valid until you realize the mane 6 had the ability to subdue him anytime he'd overstep the bounds too much.
My intelligence argument was supposed to aim at superinteligences which could emulate ours to predict or behavior completely, not that "unlucky" sod who scored 160 IQ score. He's still not quite there yet.
What it comes down to is imo opening a Pandora's box, and if or not to do it. Maybe to change or expand my previous statement on not letting them out I'd add a clause for freeing if you have a damn good reason to (desperation, prophesy, total trust), but to be ready in case you free Baal or the like.
Holy crap length of these posts is getting out of hand
Maybe I'm just trying to say I feel like Meta got rushed out faster than Russians rush B. Whether I like that detail or not doesn't change the fact it's going to have interesting consequences.
Okay, I'll shut up now. Till next chapter
8329725
The problem I'm facing is that I don't trust myself to write everything quickly. I like to take months to do every chapter. If I were to write the entire book before publishing it, should I release it one chapter a week, at a slow pace like that? I've been writing this book since 2010, I'm not worried about my motivation.
8332123
Well and I'm a more or less generalist with a passion for learning and a bias towards IT, simply because it permeates everything these days. I'm no expert by any means, and I'm not referencing anyone, but I'll look into this Yudkowsky. The rest is in my other reply, I was writing it on and off for the past couple hours and missed this update. I too welcome the debate, as long as it's civil.
8324450
I hate people that down-vote things on seeing the title. Generally, I downvote stories that have a premise I like, but was very badly written, because otherwise I end up searching for stories like that premise, find it again, download it, start reading, and say, Oh, Wait, I already said no. Oops. Not entirely fair, but at least I try reading them first.
Back before I gave up on "The Conversion Bureau" stories, I tended to, as a rule, ignore half the downvote count because so many people hated the general concept instead of any specific story. TCB stories, even the high quality ones, almost always have 50% or more downvotes, because they have TCB in the title. This doesn't effect other stories with very similar premises, like Pandemic, or Rebel against the Night.
I gave up on those because, A, I read "Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality" and it entirely changed my worldview (possibly in a bad way, but eh) and B, TCB stories kept showing up that were hatefics, and I realized that both sides were insane, and gave up trying to find something interesting to read.
It doesn't surprise me that Displaced stories have the same problem, as well as Pony-Earth-Verse, and Five-Score, and Chess Game Of the Gods. The first few stories are great. The spinoffs aren't so great. The crossovers with other authors tend to ruin everything, especially when it is mandatory.
Chess game was great, with 2 stories deciding to crossover. Then a third. Then like 20. And eventually it boomeranged back and hit one of the original stories and broke everything,
The early displaced stories, like Rise of Darth Vulcan, are great, but once they start with the crossover BS they tend to break down, get canceled, fail coordination, or require you to read other stories they crossover with when you are trying to read a single story.
Five score and PonyEarthVerse just seem to end up with really low quality.
-- Also I hate that Displaced is used to describe this premise, when the first foal-self insert story I read was named that. Link.
---- Back on topic.
I am finding this particular story interesting at least, keep up the good work. And no more april fools jokes please. XD
8332496
Holy shit dude. Is that MLP fanfiction, or a normal book? If it's fanfiction, I'd say just post it and see what people think... The last thing you want is to post it after 10 years of writing (holy shit dude) and find out that there's some repeated mistake there...
...Or not, I mean, fanfiction is something you write for fun. If you just want to have fun, don't worry about it. Just do it your way.
Not sure why you're asking me all this, it sounds like you've got your own plan.
8332562
Yeah, it's dumb. Not a big deal though: this is a pretty well received fic so far for what it is, and I wrote it just so I could ask for crossovers from Displaced authors...
Yeah, I never got too into those, but I can see that.
Oh gawd, you're one of those people.
You know... That might a good rationalfic, one where the TCB stuff is going on and both sides are insane and it's from a group of characters who realize this and are trying to set up a middle ground or third way...
Oh yeah, that was my problem with 5 Score too. I mean, I LOVED the early parts, but as it got towards the end, it just got... muddied and rushed... And the weird "by the way, THIS is going on with other characters", ended up causing plot holes and making things confusing...
I'm glad you like it, but that's not gonna happen buddy! I've got 7 more chapters of this shit, and if I don't do silly shit like that, it's gonna turn into a Crackfic. Have you ever read Pinkie Pie Wants To Die? The one where Pinkie Pie tries, and comically fails to kill herself, repeatedly? That was me. I cannot take fanfiction seriously enough for long enough to not have this devolve into bullshit.
8332467
If you think that's appropriate, ok.
That's assuming you think there's an ethical difference between sentient beings. Bot ok.
This is something I thought of, but didn't go into. Like I've said, I think this chapter could be rewritten at a later date with a lot of these problems fixed...
I guess the metaphor falls flat there, yeah.
Yeah, I should stop responding to them. :|