Twilight Sparkle was already wide awake, when the crack of dawn arrived . Last night, she had learned so many things that her brain was still processing it. She didn’t know where to even organize them in her mental library or if she even wanted this knowledge at all. Twilight once heard that it was better to not know everything about somepony; now she knew what that had meant.
Before last night, Princess Celestia was a paragon in her eyes—almost godlike if she would even admit. She worshiped everything there as about her mentor from her grace and beauty to her wisdom and kindness. Learning of her dark past had shattered that pedestal and brought her fantasy down to earth. Nearly every historian said that Princess Celestia was a better leader than any of the other corrupted, lying, and manipulative politicians in the past, but she was just like the rest of them. She was no goddess or paraon; she was just a pony.
A pony responsible for the slaughter of an entire group, even if they were a dire threat to Equestria.
And Twilight Sparkle had no idea what to do with this knowledge. Or what to do with her relationship with Princess Celestia. She didn’t want to think that the sixteen years they had shared together in friendship, learning, and love was all over because of what was shared last night. Yet, deep down, she felt utter disgust and anger over what Celestia had done to the Nightmare Cult.
“Good morning, Twilight,” yawned Spike as he sat up in his bed, a soft smile spread across his face. “Ah, I missed this old bed. It sure beats sleeping on a bed of books.”
Twilight didn’t even acknowledge Spike, she just sat up and took a comb to her mane. Spike furrowed his brow at the silence as he walked over and looked at her with concern. “Are you okay, Twilight?”
“Just... still coming to terms with what happened last night,” answered Twilight as she put the comb down.
“Yeah, I know what you mean,” said Spike, rubbing the back of his head. “I mean, I’m still trying to resist the urge to walk on all fours and shake my tail to show my mood.”
A knock on the door forced their heads to turn before one of the crystal pony maids entered the room. “Your Highness? Princess Cadence and Prince Shining Armor wish to invite you to breakfast in the dining room.”
“Oh, yes,” said Twilight with a small smile. “I’ll be right over.”
The two were about to follow the maid when Spike stopped and rushed over to her dresser. “Hold on.” He grabbed her crown and showed it to Twilight. “You forgot this.”
The moment Twilight saw the crown she was once again plagued with doubts. This time it was not if she would be a good princess or not, but if she could escape the same trap that seemed to trap all rulers. Every ruler, politician, leader, and significant noble had done something most would consider wrong or immoral. Secret and illegal orders, assassinations, spying on their people or their allies, bribes, negotiating deals with proven criminals, and more.
She thought Princess Celestia was different: that she escaped falling into the same behavior as the rest. Yet the scene still played vividly in her mind:
Twilight shook her head. “I don’t understand... you’re suppose to be merciful! Kind! The peaceful ruler who has kept us out of war for nearly a thousand years! How could you do something so horrible?!”
“Twilight, what makes you think that is not the first time I’ve done that?” asked Celestia. Twilight stepped back in shock as Celestia got up and sighed. “Do you really think I kept peace up for a thousand years with diplomacy alone? I’ve had ordered assassinations, approved of night raids, sent spies to every corner of our nation and beyond, and blackmailed others to keep them quiet. All of this was done in the shadows and without any record. I’ve been almost assassinated thirty-seven times in my life, half of them from my own subjects. Luna alone has been targeted eighteen times since she returned, but she only knows of six. I’ve manipulated many events in our history to keep us safe and preserve us from dangers both inside and outside of our country. Half of what you find in history books is all but twisted versions of the truth.” She looked up and stared straight into Twilight’s eyes. “You alone have been targeted five times since you came to my castle as my student. Twice since you became a princess. I’ve stopped them all by striking first and without mercy.”
Falling onto her haunches, Twilight slowly turned pale. Slowly, Celestia levitated her crown that had fallen after the attack and looked at it with such hatred she wished she could melt the thing and throw it into a ditch to be forgotten forever. “Being a princess... being a ruler of a nation means dirtying your hooves. It’s part of the political life, Twilight. Always has been. I have so much blood on my hooves that I know one day I’ll pay for it all. This life or the next. But if I can keep my precious ponies safe then I will never hesitate.”
If what Celestia said was true? Did that mean she would one day bloody her hooves? Twilight never believed in killing. Even during the changeling invasion she sought to stun, not kill. But what if I have no choice? What if I have to order somepony’s death because hundreds will die if I don’t?
Was there really no escaping the dirty world of politics once you entered it? Was idealism just a lie?
“Twilight?” asked Spike, getting her attention again.
“Just leave it, Spike. I don’t think we need it for breakfast,” said Twilight with a fake smile before she turned and left the room.
Spike shrugged his shoulders before placing it back on the dresser and followed right behind.
***
Twilight knew something was wrong when she saw that Princess Celestia was not at the table with the others. Luna stated that her sister was just suffering from a migraine, and thus wished not to be disturbed. Despite the smiles and tales of her adventure in the human world where she saw strange alternate versions of her friends, Twilight’s focus kept returning to the seat where Princess Celestia was supposed to be. A part of her couldn’t help but feel guilty for leaving her mentor like that in such an emotional state.
“Hey, Twilight?” asked Applejack. “Is everythin’ okay?”
“Y-yeah, why?” she lied, which was the worst thing she could do in front of her honest friend. Applejack was like a living lie detector and wasn’t afraid to know the truth, no matter how harsh it was.
“Ya just seem tense is all,” said Applejack, raising an eyebrow. “Anythin’ ya want to tell us?”
Everypony stared at Twilight, who could feel sweat dripping down her neck. What am I supposed to say? That Sunset Shimmer is Princess Celestia’s daughter? That she murdered an entire group of ponies from adults to children to an avenge an attack? That Applejack’s parents were part of these cultists and were killed by Celestia’s soldiers?
“I’m afraid that Twilight Sparkle is a bit stressed due to some events that happened last night,” said Princess Luna, shocking Twilight.
Does... does she know!?
“It is merely preparing to let the other nations know of our newest alicorn in our kingdom,” said Luna with a calm smile. “Twilight Sparkle is just nervous and yet also excited upon the prospect of visiting other nations and their leaders. Right, Twilight?”
“Um, yes! That’s it!” said Twilight with a fake smile.
Applejack seemed to accept this as she smiled and placed a hoof on Twilight’s shoulder. “Aw, shucks, Twilight. Ya don’t need to worry about impressin’ some dragon or griffin king. Ya got us here in Equestria who love ya and that’s all that matters.”
Twilight nodded and decided to go back to her breakfast, but a keen and knowing eye from Luna’s gaze made it clear they were gonna have to talk afterwards.
***
After breakfast, her friends went out to explore the Crystal Empire, each with a desire to see how the land was doing since their last visit. Twilight excused herself by saying she wished Princess Luna to help her with a small stargazing project she had going. This allowed the two of them to speak privately in her room.
After putting up the warding spells (something Twilight promised she had to learn herself one day), Princess Luna turned to Twilight with a solemn yet serious look. “I take it my sister told you the truth about her daughter yesterday.”
“Wait, you know about Sunset?” asked Twilight with wide eyes. “But Princess Celestia said that she didn’t tell you.”
“She did not tell me in person, but she told me in her dreams,” said Princess Luna as she sighed and gazed on a photo that Twilight had brought with her. It showed a filly Twilight reading a book alongside her mentor. “My sister has always hidden the truth from those she loves. Even from me. As such, I had to enter into my sister’s dreams many times to learn what truly happened over the last one thousand years.” Closing her eyes, a single tear dripped down from Luna’s eye. “I am ashamed to think that my actions helped caused such grief and guilt in my sister’s life.”
“Princess Luna... does this mean you also know about the... the cult?” asked Twilight Sparkle.
“I do,” said Princess Luna, growling. “My only regret is that I was not there to end their lives myself for what they did to my sister and niece.”
“But... but she killed them all! Mares! Stallions! Fillies and colts?!” shouted Twilight in tears. “Does that mean anything to either of you?!”
“The loss of life is regrettable, Twilight Sparkle,” said Princess Luna as she turned around. “But Celestia’s actions are one a mother would predictably carry out.”
Twilight didn’t say anything. She just sat down in shock that the two most wisest ponies she knows, and possibly ever existed, agreed with the total slaughter of the group. “Even if they were criminals, they deserved to still have a chance to repent. Haven’t we done that with Discord?”
“Yes, but Discord never kills,” said Luna, shaking his head. “He may be insane, immature, and a tyrant in many ways, but he is not a killer. He hates the idea of death. To him it's so natural and orderly and unfun. If he didn’t have that small bit of morality in him, as twisted and perverse the reasoning behind it is, I fear that my sister and I would have been killed long ago.”
She then turned to Twilight Sparkle with a harsh look on her face. “Do you know the crimes of that cult? What you saw was a small fraction of their madness. I have seen, in my sister’s dreams, how much blood they have spilt. If it was the other way around I would have wiped them out years ago instead of just recently. Some groups, some ponies, and some creatures are beyond saving, Twilight. Such evil must be destroyed without mercy. It may seem cruel, it may seem wrong, but there are evils out there, be it mortal or immortal, that are better off dead than alive.”
“I...” Twilight lowered her head and closed her eyes. “I don’t know if I can ever do that.”
“Let me put it this way,” said Princess Luna as he lifted Twilight’s hoof. “If a pony decided to murder your friends and take captive your assistant, Spike. Would you do everything in your power to save him?”
“Of course!” shouted Twilight with no hesitation.
“And now you have him at your mercy. What would you do to the pony who killed Applejack, Pinkie Pie, Fluttershy, Rainbow Dash, Rarity, and nearly killed young Spike?”
Twilight closed her eyes and gritted her teeth. Deep down, she knew what she would do in that situation. “I… I don’t… I mean...”
“That was going through my sister when Sunset Shimmer was in a state of life and death after that attack by the Nightmare Cult,” said Princess Luna as she wrapped her hooves around a trembling Twilight. “I’m not saying that what my sister did was right. But she was acting out of her own emotions, no different from any other pony. We are all the same inside one way or another. And deep down my sister regrets what she did. She regrets so many things, Twilight.” She gazed into her eyes with a pleading stare. “Please don’t end your friendship with her. She doesn’t need another regret to haunt her.”
Princess Luna slowly made her way to the door, but before she could open it, Twilight asked, “Princess Luna! What... what do I tell Applejack about her parents?”
“...Don’t,” muttered Princess Luna. “Let the Apples remember them as they believe them to be, not for what they were. Can you really go up and tell that family, who adored and loved them so much, that they were criminals and traitors that had to be killed?”
“No,” whispered Twilight. “I cannot.”
“Then carry this secret to your grave, Twilight Sparkle,” answered Luna. “Sometimes it is better for the truth to remain hidden for peace to endure.”
And with that, she left.
don't you mean immoral?
6477835
Fixed
Wise Luna is best Luna.
6477857
Wise?! Everything she said was a load of bullshit!
-The Cult was insane and murderous? Well, who is the very reason it existed in the first place? How high is you body count, directly or indirectly, Nightmare Moon? Don't you deserve the same treatment than your loyal followers ?
-The actions of Celestia are excusable because she was acting as a mother?! What is that? using the power of the crown for personal reasons is the very definition of abuse of power. She could have neutralized the Nightmare Cult without a massacre.
- Discord doesn't deserve to die because he never killed his victims (because it was boring, rather than any moral scruple)? yeah, he merely made them wish he would ( Whatever the taken for granite and I must scream penance is more merciful than execution is another debate).
-Applejack is better without knowing? possibly. Yet again, she is the Element of Honesty so maybe she deserve such honesty from one of her closest friends. Of course she may not be so willing to save Celestia 's ass next time.
- And finally, considering how Sunset's actions include treason, larceny, terrorism, and an assassination attempt to a Princess of Equestria... Doesn't she deserve the Death Penalty just like any other pony in her place, Princess' adoptive daughter of not? Maybe Twilight should bring this up if Baconhead decides to return from the Mirror someday. Justice should be equable for all, right?
6477949
Bit of a difference between insanity and sane cold-blooded evil. Sort of like the difference between a suicidal person and ISIS.
Just found this story, now have a fav.
Luna seems to gloss over the fact that Celestia killed every child too. An argument can be made for killing the adults, but I still hold it was wrong to kill those foals. Yes it does make it easier by eliminating potential future members of the cult/avengers of their parents' deaths, but that does not make it any less evil an act.
6477991 Except it never stated in this story it was insanity, it was jealousy and she murdered mare, stallion, and foal as mentioned earlier on, many times even directing the cults she created to cause suffering.
And also, if a suicidal person murders children, he still has murdered children! It doesn't grant one the right to sudden redemption because one has problems!
6478045 That's the whole discussion really...shades of gray.
There are no real right answers here...no good...no evil...
She could have let those foals live...but then she takes the chance that they will not only grow up to take revenge, but that they will subvert other innocent ponies to their side...starting the whole cycle over again.
There is no good answer because if you kill them you are killing foals now, but you are making sure that more foals later on do not have to die...
If you save those foals now you could be sentencing many innocent ponies later on to their deaths...
Are the lives of those you don't know worth less than the lives you do?...there are no right answers...
Celestia's choice was not a right or wrong answer it was just an answer...
6478045
A child holds an RPG and aims it at a transport vehicle filled with your squad mates whom you called not only friends but brothers. Would you pull the trigger and end the life of a child to save your men, or allow the child to take away the lives of sons, fathers, uncles, cousins, brothers, nephews, friends. Which poison would you pick?
Now I understand that what was written is Celestia committing mass murder, but in reality this is no different to what humanity has done.
Religious persecution, government sanctioned genocides, assassinations, war mongers declaring war for no reason, torturous interrogation methods. "History is written by the victors." How would Hitler have the history books written had the Nazi's won World War 2?
6479266
The difference is that the children she and her men killed were likely not armed and not a threat. They were simply murdering children. Whether this was right or not is debatable but the act still stands.
Good to see this come back, I've been curious how it'll wrap up.
A suggestion, though: I'd have expected Luna to be upset with the cult that they'd dare commit such atrocities in her name, and say as much to Twilight. Yes, what they did was unquestionably evil, but that they would do it for her would be the ultimate affront.
Wow, this chapter seals the deal that Celestia and Luna really is a monster. Trying to actually JUSTIFY the killing of children and families? This is basic morality 101 (waiting for all the tards to try and defend her)
6479266
Does that sound like an armed and fighting faction of children? If there was a justification that they were armed you know Celestia would've tried to use it, but from the text itself it sounds like the guard just hunted down, forced back their heads and slit their throats to let them choke on the blood as they were crying over the bodies of the mothers that were trying to defend them.
6479334
Except she actively created those Cults as Nightmare Moon . Luna is not innocent of such a legacy, and killing them for their crimes it would have been kinda of shifting the blame.
Holy crap this comment section is divided. It's amazing how many people feel strongly enough about this to comment like this. Good work sir as you seem to have gotten the emotional manipulation part of writing down pat. As for the argument itself it's hard to say one way or another. It is after all easy to condemn someone as a monster from the comfort of our homes. It is also easy to over-justify the actions of people we like against those we don't. I'm just gonna stay neutral.
Looking forward to more.
6479747 I completely agree with you.
I like how the argument seems to center on the children.
See, we have a problem. A child is highly impressionable, and here we have a bunch of foals who were born and raised - or were in the process of being raised - as part of a blood-seeking demonic cult.
So what we have, really, is a bunch of ponies with the cult's mindset and ideology drilled into their heads from birth. Naturally, the fact that the outside world doesn't appreciate demon cultists and that you should never listen to what ponies in the outside world say would have been part of that indoctrination. And there's also the little detail that the supreme ruler of the outside world slaughtered the parents and relatives of our little foal cultists - right in front of their eyes, too.
So, what do we do with these innocent, adorable balls of satanic indeology and insatiable princess-blood thirst? Release them into the world? They'll reband, swear revenge, and probably spread propaganda and convert other ponies to their cause, and we're back to square one. Plus, if most cultists are normally highly indoctrinated, these ones will be pursuing personal vengeance.
So what then? Re-educate them? As noted above, they are highly unlikely to ever budge from their stance of never-ending hatred towards the Princesses' Equestria, and with good reason.
Monitoring them throughout their lives? When you're trying to get into or organize a cult, you'll usually try to slip away unnoticed. It wouldn't be feasible to set up strict enough surveillance over dozens of ponies to prevented that.
Straight-up imprisonment for life? Seems like the only reasonable choice. However, if the argument is that killing children is wrong because they're always innocent, then putting them all into prison is also wrong - perhaps less so, but then again spending your whole life from a very young age up until death in prison is hardly an enviable fate... putting it very mildly indeed.
So perhaps killing all the foals wasn't right. But there was no real solution that could be considered morally right.
6502904
So are you suggesting that if a criminal has a child and is raising that child with their values and that criminal is killed in a confrontation with law enforcement that the child should be killed as well because he was raised as a criminal and will therefore become a criminal who will hate police or that if soldiers attack an area controlled by ISIL and find the families of the ISIL fighters they too should be killed for being raised by ISIL?
6504480 Not necessarily. In this particular scenario, we aren't just talking about a criminal or something - we're talking about a full-blown demonic cult, that even has their own hideout thingy. There's a difference.
First of all, criminals aren't necessarily bloodthirsty maniacs. Crimes range from dozens of counts of murder for serial killers to petty theft and income tax evasion. Let's just focus on murderers for now since they're most relevant to the topic at hand.
Single-time murderers either have huge anger issues - you know, like in all those news stories about a chick getting killed by her druggie boyfriend because she refused to give him $15 or something - or they have a very good motive (like in basically all detective novels - it's definitely rarer in real life, but not non-existent). Neither of these can really be transferred to kids. As for serial killers, they're antisocial psychopaths and so are highly unlikely to have kids.
Now, I believe you meant ISIS when you said ISIL. The thing is, most people living in ISIS-controlled territory actually hate ISIS, or at least aren't ISIS fanatics. Except the actual fanatics - like those who would gladly go suicide-bomb themselves - but there aren't that many of these.
As for the Nightmare Cult? They were all fanatics. It wasn't just something they did, it was their whole style of life (as opposed to your average criminal). Their purpose in life was to oppose Celestia. They would have instilled this purpose into their children, and the slaughter would only have served to strengthen that in the children's minds.
Imagine, for instance, a village full of extremist-muslim suicide bombers - willing ones, with their wives and children being fully immersed in the extremist culture all the time. This would be comparable to the Nightmare Cult. The difference is that our modern world has much higher security and surveillance than the medieval-ish Equestria, so taking in these children for extended re-education and successfully keeping tabs on them throughout their lives would be much more feasible.
Ultimately, I'm not saying that slaughtering the foals was the right thing to do. I'm just saying the situation isn't as simple as just "spare them and bam! Problem solved".
What I hate most about this is the excuse of the "mother's rage." Now, I get that if someone kills or harms someone you love, you want revenge, you want to protect your loved ones - especially if youre a mother. But Celestia honestly didn't consider that those cult foals, however they were raised, had mothers and feelings too? Have people forgotten that scene where four foals were sobbing over their mother's corpse? Celestia basically protected her helpless daughter by killing other helpless daughters and sons. (Note, I agree that the adults had to be gone.)
As for the "impressionable young minds" explanation, it makes sense, of course. But babies? As in, children less than 1 or 2? However twisted the values they've been taught are, 1 or 2 is still young enough to have a bit of childish innocence left. Now, I know you may be thinking, "They couldn't live. They were taught evil/immoral/twisted things and they'd want to avenge the deaths of their parents/cult members once they grew up."
First of all, Celestia has the power to change their memories. She's certainally changed a lot in the history books. Wrong? Maybe. But not as wrong as slaughtering whimpering foals. Secondly, they're young enough to be retaught good things, like kindness, loyalty, etc. Thirdly, there is no black-and-white "good" and "evil." This does NOT mean Im OK with what extremists like ISIS are doing. ISIS is murdering innocents left and right simply because their own idea of sick "Justice" happens to call for it. It's wrong. Stupid. Sick. Disgusting. Immoral. Evil? Perhaps what we in the 21st century would think. But let's say, in 2506 they analyzed what happened and people started wondering, "Why were the people fighting ISIS so brutal in/with _______?" (My history teacher actually made us think about this.) After all, when the Crusades took place, the Crusaders thought they were doing the right thing when they killed Muslims in the name of their God. Now we think they were way too extreme with their beliefs, the Pope was no holy man, they were invaders of the Muslim homelands, etc., etc., etc. What I'm saying is, it's all perspective. No one can be a judge of "good" or "evil" unless that person understands all the perspectives, opinions, and beliefs of each and every person in the known world. And even then they'll be influenced by a perspective that warps and changes every few decades. (People thought it was funny to be a Jew a few hundred years back. Now?) Even Celestia is not perfectly "good."
Disagree if you want to. I'm sure this is gonna cause a lot of arguing, eye-rolls, anger, and hate. But I have the freedom of speech. I'm eternally grateful to the men and women who fight for that freedom. However, when looking at things like this, we can't let one perspective overlap the other simply because we were taught One perspective first, or more often.
Based on a few things said by the princesses this is how I see it will play out; Twilight decides to tell Applejack and potentially other ponies what Celestia did so Luna deciding to do what is best for "peace" allows the most current assassination attempt, lead by one Mr. Blueblood to succeed rather than fail.
6637200
Actually, Twilight is the Princess of Friendship. Just thought I'd point that out.
I just re-read this chapter. It bothered me that Celestia kept important secrets from Luna, particularly the assasination attempts on her. But then I read about how Luna performed an inception on Celestia, and that made me feel better. I am not ashamed.
i am just going to say two things to every one
1. both sides have a valid point and there is no right answer for things like this
2. what if you some how got flung back in time you have a gun and are infront of a 5 year old hitler
6477949 wrote : " - And finally, considering how Sunset's actions include treason, larceny, terrorism, and an assassination attempt to a Princess of Equestria... Doesn't she deserve the Death Penalty just like any other pony in her place, Princess' adoptive daughter of not? Maybe Twilight should bring this up if Baconhead decides to return from the Mirror someday. Justice should be equable for all, right?"
What are you talking about? I never read of her doing anything like that in this fic at all. She got mad at Celestia, refused to talk to her, and ran away. Are you confusing this fic with some other fic? You might be.
6687126 wrote : " 2. what if you some how got flung back in time you have a gun and are infront of a 5 year old hitler"
I would do nothing. He would just have been replaced in history by somebody else. Who would have gone on and done the same things. Germany was full of people filled with anger, hate, and bloodlust at that time. If it hadn't been him it would have been somebody else. And don't forget that Hitler was incompetent and caused more trouble for his own side than he did anybody else. If he had been replaced the Nazi's might have won.
So i didnt read all the comments but the real answer here is not whether its right or wrong, but to look at what lead to this situation and improve or prevent it.
Lunas cult came out of Celestias banishment, which came out of Celestia taking her sisters emotional state for granted. This terriost attack came out of poor canterlot civilian security, not watching out for a known cult that targets Celestia and by extension everyone around her. The orders came down from an emotional distressed princess who was also potentially injured as well in the explosion. There was apparently no counter-espionge into said cult that was known to preform acts of terrorism.
Im sure theres more but my point is that these things are preventable, dealing with the after math doesnt prevent this from happening again, the cult might be gone, but there could be another one down the road that can pull the same crap.
Also if someone killed Hitler, then who knows how far the Soviets would have gone, france was going communist in the 30s, nationalist spain might had lost its civil war to there communists, and Japan might have stopped at conquering China without a facist Germany in the political sphere.
Sad part to me is, after Granny Smith, Big Mac, Aj, and Applebloom die and go to heaven the first thing they each wanna do is go see Pear Butter and Bright Mac again only to learn they're not in heaven but in tartarus for thier crimes in the nightmare cult.
They probably will learn the truth about Celestia killing them and you could only wonder how they will feel about all that.
One thing for sure they can't get some twisted form of vengeance, cause they're already dead.
I feel so sorry for them if they had to learn the truth this way