3906910

Well, I did play a song about Christmas...

[youtube=nAK9Pj5-QXY]

--arcum42

3906861 Because of what you just did, I will love you for eternity, arcum.

Edit: Dat triple post, tho. Guess that means I love you times three.

3906355

3906355 I'm sorry about all the drama, explosions, implosions, fire-stomping-out, and other various emergencies and general stress-causers you and the group have been going through. I'm sad to see Twilight's Library shut its doors, but if that's for the best, then that's what must be.

I will be forever grateful for this place, first that the Library was a place where I could reliably find some of the gems without having to dig through all the dirt of FimFiction on my own, and secondarily that some of my own work had the chance to be included and featured here, which helped me get a lot of feedback that's been very useful as an improving writer.

Thanks for everything. If you decide in time to rebuild a new group and give this another shot, then I wish you the best of success and I'll be there eagerly watching for what makes it into that new spotlight.

3906355

So you guys are taking the "if you can't take the heat..." route?

Having looked at the lengthy blogs and whatnot with everyone detailing their sides of the story, I can safely say that you're just (indirectly) asking for pats on the back here and in your blog, while all these people working for you resigned because they felt their work was not being respected. Not by the audience, but by their "boss," so to speak. Coming out, saying "OMG I'm tired of the drama", and closing the group after that, I imagine, is like getting spat in the face for those people.

I liked TL while it was going, and I appreciate that you and all of the aforementioned staff offered us this opportunity to feature our works in a place with a good name, but this clearly isn't the right way to handle its "demise", so to speak.

Also casting out 3906824 and citing "drama" as the reason pretty much proves his point.

Was he harsh about what he said? Yes.

Did he resort to ad hominems? No, or at least not to my knowledge.

And I don't agree with everything he said, but at least he's talking about problems rather than handing out free kisses for your boo-boos. If you can't live with that, if harsh criticism isn't allowed because it might upset people, then how do you expect to make any decent changes at all?

ban me plz

3906897

Your staff once made a response to criticism that said "we have a recommendation folder and no one is using it, so please stop complaining about what we feature." I said "fair enough" and tried to contribute a few fics I thought worthy, working along the lines of "not featured already in a billion other popular outlets."

I have yet to see any of those contributions make a difference, or any made by others for that matter (and posting EQD and FimFic front page-featured stories, or stories from years ago doesn't count). And for the record: this isn't me complaining that "OMG why won't you feature the stories I wanted to see?" This is me saying: "put your money where your mouth is."

For all of its alleged faults that have now come to light, at least TL had a public platform where the staff openly discussed whether they still gave a damn about outsiders' recommendations.

3906972 aren't you asking the same by being rude just for the sake of being rude?

They are not asking for pats on their backs. They just want to be able to enjoy the group like they once did.
it shouldn't be stress inducing like it is another job. I commend them for putting up with self-entitled people like you for so long.

To all the staff members: i hope to see you back in one way or another and thanks for all the work you did in the last couple of years.

3907004

I saw too many people handing out free hugs and posting tearjerker songs for no adequate reason. I weighed in to balance the scales. End of story.

If TL was supposed to be "just for fun," it should have done away with the whole submission system, which was the very thing that generated all that hard work for the admins who now decided to leave. If it was supposed to be a "serious" platform, then people should have taken it seriously, and that includes not citing "drama" as a reason to quit, which is basically saying "yeah, we had problems, but it's people getting all emotional that brought us here..."

3907012 the drama was just the straw that broke the camels back, the issues were going back earlier for example people complaining and/or harassing them that their story got rejected or how they should do things.
In my opinion a fandom should be fun, if it isn't then you are doing something wrong. I get the feeling that the staff didn't have any fun with this for a while now.

Well, as the pink pony would say, if you're not having fun, then neither am I. Knowing my submission (small though it may have been) only contributed to work that wasn't enjoyable for anyone leaves a very bitter taste in my mouth.

Whatever you decide to do, you have my support, for what good that will do you. I liked you guys.

3906723

Dude I just stated that I didn't want Twilights library to turn into another group with Seattle's selective program, I wasn't outright condemning it for doing some great evil on the world or for ignoring the little man or whatever. Frankly I don't care what system you guys created, and I to be honest I'm not really that interested anyway - most of the stuff which gets reviewed by Seattle's Angels isn't my type of thing- and didn't ask for a detailed explanation of your actions and reasons, So it seems to me your locking yourself into an armoured shell of justification in response to something that wasn't even meant as a noticeable criticism.

My point here is that I want Twilights Library to be more inclusive and directly approachable than Seattle's Angels, and I want the approval of stories to be above 5-7 per month or whatever number it is. I still stand by what I originally said however, Seattle's Angels is a highly selective group, and for most people that can come across as intimidating and unapproachable, especially with its reliance on recommendations from your readers to get some notice, effectively making a direct approach impossible due the rules and regulations.

So are you relatively slow and unapproachable? Yes, you update only monthly with a small amount of reviewed fiction to add to your collection, and no direct approach is possible in gaining your attention as its deemed as self promotion. This is perfectly reasonable given the goals of the group, but it isn't something I want for this group, as I want this to be far more available to authors in general, whilst maintaining a good level of relatively high standards with a sizable flow of stories being accepted during the process of the week.

In other words, your Paradigm is fine, but its not what "I" want for this group, nor something I think would be suitable for Twilights library, the niche has already been filled regardless.

Also next time please just ask for me to clarify before giving me a lecture on the merits of your organization, I already know them, and this action just wastes both of our time.

3907012

that includes not citing "drama" as a reason to quit,

So you're saying that stress is not a viable reason to quit? Not agreeing with someone that you cannot stand to work with is not a reason to quit?

...

Wat?

I'm sorry but that is more ludicrous than Luda's entire career. If you were working with a high pitched Britney Spears who sang shitty songs in your ears for the rest of your life and no, you could not tell her to fuck off, would you just exit stage right? I know I would. That shit is stressful. No offense lad, but the brain does not like to be stressed out or annoyed. That's when an admin gets overworked and begins to have anxiety attacks.

which is basically saying "yeah, we had problems, but it's people getting all emotional that brought us here..."

"So how about we take a breather and sort it out? Maybe we'll come back to this and bring in some new hands." They never said they will fully 100% quit. This post said there is a slight possibility that they'll come back and be fresh with some new J's on each individuals' feet. Sweet jolly mama, get those J's on the feet brah.

Plus, don't we all have emotions? We're not perfect beings. Controlling them is part of the issue, but when you have a lot of conflicting views, then things get heated real quick.

3907111

The OP could have said "let's close up shop until things cool down," left it at that, and I wouldn't have said a word. But the way the post was phrased basically made it sound like he said "everyone here is causing a shitstorm, I am so emotional about it, so I'm just going to sweep it all under the rug and wait for people to forget about it." If one intends to be taken seriously, then they shouldn't use issues like this as an opportunity to whine about personal feels. That's what their blog is for.

For all the shit people are giving EQD, has anyone ever considered that their fanfic-related staff probably gets more hate mail and drama than all the "big name" groups here combined? And has anyone ever heard them cite frustration over all that as a reason to close the doors? The last thing I remember them doing was putting in polls related to popular complaints/questions about fic features a few months ago. They made a move to address the issues rather than make lengthy posts to complain about people responding to rejections (or certain features) with "nasty emails" or whatever...

And yes, I did read the part where he said they'll try to devise something better. I'm happy about it. I just don't think it's respectful to turn a serious issue involving other people into a personal hugbox.

3906916 trips confirm eternal love

>> Nobody in Particular/Everyone.

Err . . . I originally thought this thread was locked, for some strange reason.

This comes as a surprise. I knew a lot of other forums ended up dying out do to a high demand and a heavy workload, but from the outside, it looked as if this forum was going strong. I used to read the rejection thread on a regular basis because I thought that Sir Truffles, Twilight-The-Pony, and others had sound judgement, and it just wouldn't hurt to hear con-crit on other people's fics.

After several months of procrastinating, I'm in the process of revising my own fic and, and was going to see if I could get it passed through here, but no matter.

You guys are wonderful for devoting whatever time you did, doing something for free for the community. Nobody should feel obligated to do this, especially to the point of it becoming like a second job, and no one should feel guilty about becoming burnt out. Rest, enjoy the holidays, focus on your own fics, shoot the shit with the rest of the community, whatever strikes your fancy. From what I'm gathering from all of this, is that some of you have simply been running yourselves ragged over something that should never have become a chore in the first place.

And now all the groups like 'Celestia's Library' begin to grow.

3907330

Given that Celestia's Library is dead, I hope not. If it wasn't dead, someone would have said something when I locked its incoming folder a few weeks ago...

--arcum42

3907128 It's pretty clear that this has been going on for a long time. Generally if things are rough and guys like arcum and truffles trudge on, then it's determination and perseverance, which you don't seem to get. When things are rough for a long time, then there's an inherent problem. They're taking a break and reassessing the group later; how is that anything like you describe?

I smell a kid who wants to sound profound by going against everyone else. Pretty awful of you to do that, really.

3907370
As an admin of a much smaller (but hoping to become more active in the future) group, I sympathize with the stress this group's created you and the rest of its staffers. I don't know much at all about whatever drama unfolded behind the scenes, but no matter how serious a group may be when it comes to what it adds to its library, the stress it causes for those who run it should never outweigh the personal satisfaction that they get from running it. That's not an indictment of what you guys have been doing, that's just a recognition that, from what it sounds like, some people in the staff here just got worn down by a number of things.

I really enjoy this group, and do hope that whatever happens, everything turns out for the best. Obviously the most ideal situation would be that it doesn't shut down. I also want to apologize if my fic, currently one of the few left in the 'Holding' folder, contributed to any of the stress the staff were feeling. I know it's pretty lengthy as it is right now, so I certainly hope it didn't cause any unwarranted stress prior to all this drama. Hope things cool down for you arcum, and good luck with everything!

3907398

It's pretty awful that the sole response some people have to harsh criticism is "you're a bad person who just wants to act tough."

Closing the place up and moving on, giving everyone time to think things through = good move

Calling it "drama" = not a good move

The blog post by SirTruffles was professional in both content and tone. This thread is a thinly-veiled call for sympathy in my eyes. And if people intend to prove me wrong, they should tell everyone to move their "GG keep going gaiz!" comments to PMs (akin to how some of the staff here like to tell people they should have moved stuff to PMs) and focus on discussing the issue at hand.

Like I said in a previous comment: I am eternally grateful for what this group has offered me, and I don't celebrate this turn of events, but let's not allow ourselves to get distracted. 90% of the comments so far have nothing of value (or even relevance) to add to what the problem really is, or rather was, since I'm guessing the "Gordian Knot" solution had already been implemented...

For what it's worth, here's my two cents for the remaining admins (and whoever else wants to join in if TL ever starts up again), just so that I too "put my money where my mouth is":

Set up the "self-promotion thread" again, but this time with strict guidelines, akin to how places like TRG or the RCL demand it (and simply ignore any stories that do not meet the criteria). In fact, I particularly like the RCL version, since they also ask you to add a description of why you think the story should be featured. This can help whoever ends up having to review it, most likely decreasing the workload, because pretty much all they need to check is whether the story looks like it will live up to that promise. So even if it's a 50k+ monster, you can decide within the first few chapters, and if the recommendation summary itself already seems flawed, then they don't need to check at all.

And based on my experience with TL so far, there's no need to for the stories to be any more "monumental" beyond that in order to get featured. If it's a decent read, it can have its short moment "in the spotlight," and maybe those that offer something even bigger can get an entire admin blog post or something.

Well now I'm a little sad about the library closing. Hopefully you don't just abandon the group forever. One day I hope to see the library reopened but I do agree with the sentiment of closing. It became quite obvious in the relatively short time I've watched this group that it was quickly becoming unmanageable. Longer times between folder openings, fewer reviewers, general chaos and the like.

An overhaul of the system is needed. But I hope if/when you do ever reopen you don’t take away the ability for us to recommend stories or even our own stories. Because I know there are many great stories out there that don’t get seen because they get buried under the mounds of other stories that flow into the site and sometimes the only way these stories will be seen would be though groups like Twilight’s library, either being submitted by someone who read it or the author themselves.

I wish you luck in your endeavor and hope to see the library open again one day in some way shape or form.

Until then, have a cute Twilight picture.

3907103

Also next time please just ask for me to clarify before giving me a lecture on the merits of your organization, I already know them, and this action just wastes both of our time.

You already did clarify though, in 3906588 . You say that you already know it, yet Raz felt that you were misrepresenting SA's stance, thus the clarification seemed necessary after all. Regardless, SA isn't TL, and this is a TL thread.

This is perfectly reasonable given the goals of the group, but it isn't something I want for this group, as I want this to be far more available to authors in general, whilst maintaining a good level of relatively high standards with a sizable flow of stories being accepted during the process of the week.

Disclaimer: I am in no way affiliated with Twilight's Library and its admins.

You hit the crux of the issue here. What is the goal of Twilight's Library? As has been stated a few times already, TL originally started as a glorified bookshelf. Then it evolved into a larger, public group. Then it evolved into a EQD-sized self-publish service, and eventually collapsed under its own weight. Now is the time when arcum & co are stepping back to reevaluate what TL is truly intended to be.

Your opinion of what TL should be, which I quoted above, is certainly not alone, possibly the simple majority. But it's not unanimous either: there's disagreement in this very thread, and from what I've seen even some of the contributors disagree about TL's goals. Should TL be author-centric or reader-centric? Are its standards acceptable or should they be lowered? (The general consensus appears to be that they should not be raised, at least.) Is an incoming rate of several accepted fics per week something that the contributors can reasonably sustain without suffering burnout? Is a library with 6,300 accepted fics something that the community benefits from? (Keep in mind, there are 76,000 stories on the site. Approximately 8% of the entire website is TL-approved. That is a ton of horsewords.)

I said before and I'll repeat: IMHO Twilight's Library will not return using 100% the same model as before. It was not a sustainable model, and frankly, neither is EQD's. Both EQD and TL-before-the-closing were being propped up on the shoulders of three to five individuals pushing through the vast majority of work, and generally receiving scorn from the community that they weren't doing their volunteer work fast enough. EQD has so-far managed to turnover their prereaders fast enough to compensate for burnout. TL was not. They faced a string of resignations in a row, and opted to close shop and restrategize. If they go back into the game using the exact same strategy, they'll hit the exact same result.

Neither myself nor arcum (in his original post that started this SA tangent) are implying that "adopting the SA model" is the only possible outcome. If TL desires a more author-centric model than SA's model, there are possible alternatives to explore. But the old TL model is off the table.

3907128

For all the shit people are giving EQD, has anyone ever considered that their fanfic-related staff probably gets more hate mail and drama than all the "big name" groups here combined? And has anyone ever heard them cite frustration over all that as a reason to close the doors?

Naturally they never threw the switch, to avoid the spaghetti-storm of overly-entitled authors, but... Yes, there were rumblings at least two or three times that I'm aware of, since its inception. To say nothing of private conversations I wasn't privy to. Their volunteer-work is thankless and soul-crushing, and I wouldn't trade jobs with them for anything.

3908087
You my friend seem to have missed out on the comment I made before my response to Raz, So I linked it below. (Also I think Raz missed out on that clarification comment, so I had to directly state it, otherwise the long dialogue I received would have been relatively unnecessary if Raz had known about it)

3906645

I am perfectly happy with change, I just don't want it to reduce itself to a tiny enclave of reviewers with a minimalistic approach to accepting fiction, not that change isn't necessary in the situation (which it clearly is, given the collapse of Twilights Library as of this moment). But, I do hold that if they're guys are going for something new, please don't follow too closely in the footsteps of other organizations, I liked the availability of this place, so something with a freer rein would be very much welcome.

Asides from that, I'm perfectly happy to see what the admins come up with.

Anyhoo, I am going to stop posting here, I feel that I am getting frustrated over the response to a simple disagreement which was solved in a matter of minutes between me and Arcum, any longer with this and I'll start getting annoyed and insulting.

Job.

This is more or less why I stopped raiding in MMORPGs. And then stopped playing them almost ever. Guild drama didn't help. Overworked leaders and officers keeping it up well beyond burnout fueled some of those fires. It ruined a friendship or two of mine, to say nothing of theirs. And I was just an unofficial, de facto class leader...

I more or less know how it goes. So thank you and respect given for doing what you managed to do, especially to everyone stressed, overworked, or both.

And also for putting up with my shit. I know I was a mixed bag, when I was around at all.

It's a shame what has happened,
Twilights Library is one of the most popular groups on fimfiction
(That I know of)

Credit to the admins who have worked so hard keeping the group running for so long.
I hope it is revived at some point.

I am... sad, here. Not sure what else to say or that I can say. I was actually getting ready to submit the next time the folders opened. I really do hope this reopens or something.

3906355

Well, admittedly I first stumbled upon this group after reading a story on Fimfiction.net and seeing an unusual "Twilight approved" ribbon trailing behind the story's description page. After seeing this, I looked into the group and soon discovered a treasure trove of quality works that you guys had put together in your "library."

I joined your group because, as we all know, there is a lot of fanfiction on this site. At times, it can be difficult to find the kind of stories that will send you happily along the path to a sleepless night. This group has helped both myself as well as everyone else here find those types of works. You insured that quality and creative approach were valued. You've also acted as a kind of "counter balance" to the poor rating system that plagues this site.

know that the contributors and admins here have done a fantastic job and provided an invaluable service to the Fimfiction community. Whatever the future holds, know that you have aided both the viewer as well as the writer in expecting more from each other.

Best regards,

Aoki

3908123 I can confirm this. In fact, it wasn't all that much of a secret that when the new guidelines went into effect, it was because it was that or shut down the fanfiction segment for good.

3907012
It sounds like someone else could use a hug too. Really, there's no need to be picky. Hugs for everyone!

3908652

I'm always good for hugs. But we need more than hugs at the moment...

Still, thanks... I guess...

I hope that one day this group will be reopened or rebuilt in some way or form. I'm glad it's not getting deleted, but for now...

I just wish there was a way I could help.

3908652
*hugs tightly*

3908671 Resorting to name-calling already? That was hella rude and inappropriate of you.

Also:

You want an admin, give me a try.

I'll likely as not do a better job then the trained monkies that just bailed.

Your attitude would have already given you a staff rejection, but that little grammatical slip-up would've made me fail you right there if I had a say, son.

3908799 If you've been paying attention, you would know that some of the admins left due to reasons that were making themselves apparent long before now. The recent drama was just the end of the fuse for them, and there's nothing wrong with moving on. You do what you gotta do.

The admins leaving was their own choice.

YOU leaving was my choice. Bye!

-Lumino

3908799
First, they didn't bail because their feelings were hurt; second, nopony who's used a thumpad would believe that your "then/than" issue was due to the thumbpad; third, Twilight's Library - even if active - wouldn't likely accept an abrasive admin or contrib after refusing Titanium Dragon, who's beyond qualified, on those very grounds.

Edit: Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize it had been taken care of. Feel free to delete this comment if you find it detrimental to the conversation at hoof.

I'm neither an admin nor a contributor to TL, so I've got no dog in this hunt.

Still, as an active curator of a similar group, I'd like to leave this here (along with my good wishes for everyone besieged by drama), and urge that anyone upset with this decision try to keep some perspective.

Best,

H

3906355

I'm not going to advise on what is to become of Twilight's Library, because well, I don't have any inside information, and, well, I don't have an opinion. Not that I don't wish the best for it or appreciate the admins' hard work -- I do -- but because, whichever way it jumps, someone is bound to be unhappy. Be more like Group X? Well, a lot of people are going to be unhappy because the real, true, handed-down-from-the-heavens purpose of Twilight's Library was to be more like Group Y, and anyone who says otherwise is either stupid or Eeeeevvvillll. It's like Team Jacob vs. Team Edward, except without all the careful thought and attention to logic. All the alternatives have plusses and minuses.

So first, and mainly, thanks to all the admins who, as Celestia(/Primus) as my witness, I believe tried their best for amateur writers like me, and for readers in a fandom they appreciated.

Second, yes, someone -- probably a lot of someones -- may be emotionally overwrought, but that is going to happen as long as admins have to be selected from that too-flawed clay known as "people." What I would like to recommend (and what serves as the paltry excuse for all this typing I'm annoying y'all with) is that, if the phoenix of revieweritorical splendor rises from the bitter ashes of hurt feelingitude (I used to watch ...The Tick), maybe people could rotate among the positions? Seriously, dealing with hurt authors who can't understand why This Story isn't being recognized as the greatest prose since Moses, the magical words that would make Shakespeare weep, discard his literary pretensions, and go back to selling greeting cards, not to mention dealing with others who are dealing with that same, is enough to overwhelm anyone with half a heart, given time.

Just a suggestion, make from admitted ignorance.

3906908 I rather liked the way you were running things. And please don't go the SA route. I may be pretty lax with what I give likes to, but I go for more story immersion and character driven stories than perfect prose. I like the system you have, and imho Skeeter and a few others have done a fantastic job. I still don't get what the drama was with the addition to the story, haven't caught my eye really to bother with it yet since the description read too much like other "Dash assumes but Rarity shows her how wrong her assumptions are" stories.

If a story can get you to genuinely laugh, d'aww, cry, or just invoke real emotion while keeping the reader from pulling out of the immersion to question every little thing that a character with a familiar name slapped onto them does, then I don't see an issue with it. It was under my understanding this was a place to find good suggestions for fics back before these fic suggestions popped up on the site. And even then it's a good collection that could be put to better use if certain group features for finding what a reader wants to read, better.

Go on break, let things die down. I mean, I don't want to see a group that basically just circle jerks the same 7-13 people's stories around as "Must read" and or anything. You're one of the few unbiased groups out there. For the most part. Just lay down more firm clear rules in a sticky that's not a mile long about how things will work.

And I would gladly help read through any backlogs if you want, I'm more than willing to help you out anytime and you should know that by now. Take it easy Arcum, have a nice break! (but don't go hanging in the towel over a bit of drama and in-fighting and one person having the social tact of a cactus.)

3909472

And please don't go the SA route. I may be pretty lax with what I give likes to, but I go for more story immersion and character driven stories than perfect prose.

Would you mind pointing to the systemic story choices that have led to this conclusion? I'm quite curious.

3909472

You say this, but consider how fast the incoming folder fills. Less than a minute? Certainly less than five. Truffles was very right in one thing he said, this place burns readers out. We use them up and toss them aside, taking in more and more when the spaces open, only to repeat the process.

That is not sustainable, and it isn't healthy for our staff. Something has to give, and if TL does return, rest assured there will be massive changes.

-Lumino

3908177
I'm guessing that MMO is World of Warcraft, and if so I know your pain. I'm the GM for Dauntless, a Horde Guild on The Forgotten Coast PvP server, so yeah, being a Guild Master is akin to running a Group on this website. The big difference between this that that is the payoff: here it is only recognition for stories well written, there it's loot, "gold" and being able to beat up on other players. Been with WoW since vanilla, and even that has talk of being shut down. Hopefully that won't happen thanks to WoD.

3909581

EverQuest for more than 13 years, actually, but it goes more or less the same.

3909484 That's confusing me as well. I mean, SA featured one of my fics even though it had all sorts of niggling little structural issues.

I don't understand why people keep turning stuff like this into a binary black and white conflict.

Well, this was a very disappointing thing to read. The rejection reviews from the staff at Twilight's Library were always very helpful, and a major goal of mine on this site has always been to get a story in here.

Still, I understand the stress of drama... I'm surrounded by it every day, after all. So I can completely understand why you would do this. That list of disasters and drama is quite long, and I hope that you can get it off your shoulders. After all, being an admin means having fun while you...Well, administrate, for lack of a better word at the moment. At least, it always has in my opinion.

At any rate, goodbye, old Twilight's Library! You were a worthy foe, and I hope you rest in peace.

As for the admins that stick around, even if you don't make a new Library, I expect great things from all of you!