Doctor Who Regeneration Continuity Snarl Explained · 5:39pm Jul 16th, 2017
I've been explaining this one both here and over on Twitter, so I might as well make a blog post about it.
Here's your guide to the WONDERFUL mess Steven Moffat (and partly Russ Davies) made of the regeneration continuity of the Doctor.
Right, so, up through Paul McGann as the EIghth Doctor, things are pretty cut and dry. So I won't go earlier than him.
Now, up until the Eleventh Doctor storyline "Name of the Doctor/Time of the Doctor/Day of the Doctor/Left Big Toenail of the Doctor", things were pretty straightforward:
Ninth Doctor: Christopher Eccleston
Tenth Doctor: David Tennant
Eleventh Doctor: Matt Smith
Twelfth Doctor: Peter Capaldi
Thirteenth Doctor: Jodie Whittaker
Except not quite, because Davies, the showrunner during David Tennant's era, STARTED the continuity snarl during the Series Four finale "The Stolen Earth"/"Journey's End":
The (Tenth) Doctor is shot by a Dalek and starts to regenerate. However, he doesn't want to regenerate, so he cheats his own fate: he allows the regeneration to repair the damage the Dalek did to him, then channels the rest of the regeneration energy into the severed hand of his that was cut off in a duel on Christmas Day when he first regenerated into the Tenth Doctor. The regeneration energy basically starfished his severed hand--but that's not important for now, look up the episode summary on Wikipedia if you want to know about what happened to the damn hand after that. The important part here is that the Doctor burned off a regeneration without changing, which then effectively made David Tennant both the Tenth AND Eleventh Doctors:
Ninth Doctor: Christopher Eccleston
Tenth Doctor: David Tennant
Eleventh Doctor: David Tennant
Twelfth Doctor: Matt Smith
Thirteenth Doctor: Peter Capaldi
Fourteenth Doctor: Jodie Whittaker
Note that everyone was perfectly willing to ignore this entirely until Moffat made a point of making it a major plot point in Matt Smith's final outing.
So that's where things STARTED to go caca. Now let's talk about the "Moffat of the Doctor" storyline, in which Moffat threw everything out of sync with the single biggest retcon in the entire fifty year franchise history:
The Ninth Doctor wasn't the Ninth Doctor.
Moffat introduced a "lost" Doctor, a regeneration who fought in the Time War and did things the Doctor could not forgive himself for, so he repressed all his own memories of that regeneration.
The War Doctor.
The existence of the War Doctor completely screwed everything up, and although the Doctors after him are still referred to by their established canon numbers, the actual sequence of regenerations does not match the canon numbering anymore, even less so since Moffat decided the Tenth Doctor's fake regeneration counted in the numbering and made it a MAJOR part of the plot of the Lord of the Doctor: The Fellowship of the Return of the Doctor storyline.
So instead of the nice neat chronology which is official, the actual cycle of regenerations after the Eighth Doctor looks like this:
War Doctor (Ninth Doctor): John Hurt
Tenth Doctor: Christopher Eccleston
Eleventh Doctor: David Tennant
Twelfth Doctor: David Tennant
Thirteenth Doctor: Matt Smith
>>> The Doctor is given a new set of regenerations by the Time Lords so he doesn't die for real <<<
Fourteenth Doctor: Peter Capaldi
Fifteenth Doctor: Jodie Whittaker
Yeah, it's...it's a massively nerdy thing to obsess over, I know. But it is what it is. Nerds gotta nerd.
So in other words, if they really want to, they can end up with a 26th Doctor, which would be the 24th new Doctor...
I had a feeling this would be one of those series that would never die.
4603266
Yeah that's kinda built into the concept of regenerations. It's designed so things can continue endlessly if they so wish it.
You know, I never had trouble with this.
When explained it looks way crazier than it felt watching it.
Or maybe it is that crazy and it just looked prettier on the screen.
Also, was "caca" used intentionally or you meant "gaga"?
4603268
My thought was that, since my dad was telling me about David Tennant being two regenerations, that Jodie Whittaker would be the last one.
I know very little about Doctor Who, so I didn't know that the Doctor could be given new sets of regenerations
What about the time Rowan Atkinson was the Doctor? Huh? HUH!?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Do-wDPoC6GM
Seems pretty logical to me.
4603278
I'm hoping you're joking and know that CoFD was a non-canon spoof, but this being the internet, I can never tell sometimes...
4603285
Comic Relief is in the title :)
Actually no. You're making the same mistake that everyone seems to make in this case. To summarize, a Time Lord has twelve regenerations. They do not use those regenerations until the end of a life cycle or something happens to kill them. The first life cycle is not from a regeneration, but from natural birth
The first Doctor was born that way.
He did of old age and regenerated into the second Doctor. That was his first regeneration. So the count actually goes like this;
First: no regeneration.
Second: first regeneration.
Third: second regeneration.
Fourth: third regeneration.
Fifth: fourth.
Sixth: fifth.
Seventh:sixth.
Eight: seventh.
After this is where the confusion begins, the ninth Doctor (War Doctor John Hurt ) eighth regeneration.
Tenth: ninth (Christopher Eccleston ).
Eleventh: tenth (David Tennant ).
Twelfth: eleventh (David Tennant).
Thirteen: twelfth and final official regeneration (Matt Smith).
So things do even out and in fact adding the War Doctor does keep the numbers correct.
4603276
Obviously, it's intentional. If I meant gaga I would have said gaga. They don't even mean the same thing, why would I have used gaga there?
4603277
Jodie Whittaker is the second Doctor in the new set of regenerations Matt Smith's Doctor received at the end of his life. It'll be a while before they have to worry about how to give the Doctor more regenerations.
4603291
Wow you're dumb.
First is first is first. Regeneration has nothing to do with first. The official rule, set in the classic Who, is that a Time Lord dies for good "at the end of their thirteenth life". Actual. Wording.
The only one confused here is you. Especially since you "corrected" me by posting the exact same information I posted.
Also, it's interesting that you felt the need to tell me I "made a mistake" when at no point did I actually say what you seem to think I said that needed correcting.
Maybe it's time for YOU to regenerate?
4603297
Ok, I've never heard that anywhere else before, but if that is the official cannon then that does throw me off. Also, there's no need to be rude or snarky about it.
4603298
WHen someone tells me I'm wrong and then proves me right in the process of "correcting" me, I reserve the right to be rude and snarky about it, because I do not suffer fools gladly.
4603292
Because either of them would have fit and I hadn't seen the word in this context, let alone this language, nothing else.
So basically the regenerations themselves are all timey wimey wibbly wobbly now?
(Note: Everything I know about the franchise is secondhand, I haven't had much chance to get into it myself yet.)
Wait people are still confused by this? I admit it is a little odd at first but it's easy to understand after knowing David Tennant used two regenerations and we learn about the War Doctor.
4603304
If Moffat's involved, people will be confused.
I think the War Doctor was specifically because they couldn't get Christoper Eccleston back as the Ninth Doctor, and they knew that people would inevitably complain if the Ninth Doctor looked at all different or sounded different (not that that stopped the old Doctor Who from replacing the first doctor when the old actor passed away before the five doctors team up), and rather than try to retcon him as the Ninth Doctor, they established him as a seperate doctor.
Well, I've always liked Tennant as the Doctor, so a two-regeneration run is something I can handle. And John Hurt as the War Doctor is so many levels of awesome all on its own that the renumbering is perfectly acceptable. :)
Within continuity, the War Doctor didn't consider himself part of the regeneration cycle of Doctors because he did things the Doctor never would. He felt he had disgraced his own calling and vocation. Although he redeemed himself at the end, it wouldn't be until the Eleventh's era that the Doctor would be able to remember this.
I do like that, when seen another way, Peter Capaldi is the first doctor of the new regeneration cycle. He doesn't want to change and is monologuing about it. Just like William Hartnell did as the First Doctor in the Antarctica episode which was his last. In that episode, most of the action centered around the companions while the Doctor was supposedly locked somewhere off-camera. But who's to say he wasn't also out for a stroll, to meet the First Doctor of the Second incarnation, who also didn't want to regenerate?
This is really good stuff. I'm looking forward to seeing where they go with it.
4603277
4603292
To add on, correct me if I'm wrong, but in The Five Doctors, didn't the Time Lord High Council promise The Master the rest of The Doctors regenerations if he helped the Council out?
4603268 Now people are gonna get triggered over The Doctor being a woman now
4603291 That makes a bit more sense
In the Sixth Doctor serial The Trial of a Time Lord, we encounter the prosecutor, The Valeyard, who later turns out to be "an amalgamation of the Doctor's darker sides from between his twelfth and final incarnations", at least according to the Master.
So, The Valeyard is possibly still in the distant future, in the Doctor's own timeline. OR The Valeyard was part of what Matt Smith's Doctor was up to in those 'centuries' he didn't interact with the Ponds.
4603336
Already found a few on Twitter, more people are celebrating happily. But it's still frustrating to see some people being so negative about this. :/
4603344
I mean, we knew even before Missy Time Lords could do this.
4603344
Heck, the Doctor, albeit in an AU by Big Finish had him regen into a chick (And immediately assume a guy eyeing her is The Master)
And yet we still don't know how many re-generations The Doctor has now that Gallifre got involved so that he wouldn't die for real.
People think the progression of the Doctors is linear, one to another, but really it's more of a wibbley wobbly, Doctory wocktery... thing.
4603341
Considering the Great Intelligence actually calls the Eleventh the Valeyard in the episode The Name of the Doctor, it's highly likely he had his dark spell during that time period. Which might not be much of a dark spell, once you realize he knew in advance he'd get away with it. The whole thing might have simply been a way to deal with the lingering consequences of stealing a time capsule, so that his future self could be a more proactive presence in the universe.
Not sure which is more confusing, this or, actually no, this is convoluted, but Kingdom Hearts is far more so.
4603371
It's possible this cycle is open-ended. There's some ancient lore that Rassilon limited the regeneration cycle to 12 so that the Time Lords wouldn't develop God complexes. Which is ironic considering Rassilon himself eventually does.
But it's possible the new cycle has no upper limit. This would, of course, allow for as many Doctors as the series can produce.
4603315
Yeah, that's basically what happened, although there was nothing stopping Moffat from just using Paul McGann to flesh out the story of the Doctor's darkest days. I mean, he was involved anyway.
Not that I'm complaining about John Hurt as the War Doctor, mind. He was pretty awesome. It's just that Moffat pulling that stunt caused this whole mess.
4603332
Just don't even get me started on all the times the Time Lords used the Master for their own ends...the Council are curiously short-sighted for immortal Time Lords.
4603336
4603482 Well, considering the Tenth Doctor cheated the regeneration cycle and that was counted as official regeneration by the series own rules, I suppose it was inevitable that by the time of the official thirteenth actor to play the doctor, they'd need to re-define the rules. Guess that's just another case of bad direction and bad writing that I hear has been plaguing the series as of late.
4603482
The General dude at least called Rassilon out on his shit. So, is The Doctor stll Lord President again? I can't recall
4603520
Hell if I know, dude. I skipped Capaldi's entire run from the Robin Hood episode to the two most recent episodes. I didn't care for Capaldi as the Doctor and I was sick to death of Moffat.
4603530
I really liked Capaldi honestly, but at least Moffat's leaving
I thought the whole War Doctor thing was kind of pointless (even though I liked the character). I mean, the Doctor had already acknowledged fighting in the Time War, so having him shunt all of that onto another regeneration he doesn't talk about feels a little wrong, especially for someone already familiar with killing and seeing people killed. It just felt like a colossal let-down, especially since The Name of the Doctor implied War had done something really bad, something unspeakable... and he'd ultimately done something understandable that no-one could shut up about.
This gonna give me a headache
.
And don't forget Word of God claims the Curator is a future incarnation and not Four aged by out-of-sync timelines.
4603482
Their timelords..of course them being short sighted is a thing..the Master ignored wording when he brought galifrey back temporarily...'something is returning,not someone'....but he's insane anyway.
But still..Even the doctor has made a slight BooBoo before no matter how intelligent.
Remember Grandpa...aka,the system eating parasite sun?
4603814
Oh god, the Curator. Don't get me started on the Curator. @_@;;
4603822
Your comment is largely unintelligible gibberish. I suggest you actually look at what your phone is autocorrecting your typing to.
4603825
Moffat being "clever". He thinks he's SO CLEVER. He's really just overly smug about running unchecked and doing stupid stuff that only makes sense to him.
4603832
Can you read it now?
Apologies...major headache while typing...
4603836
Much better.
*read all of that* @_______@ *faints from overload*
4603832
I HATE Steven Moffat and his retarded writing. He ruined the show for me. I only consider the classic series and the first four seasons, including David Tennant's final specials, of the new series to be canon.
I always considered the War Doctor to be an "artificial" regeneration and that he didn't "count" when it came to the thirteen regeneration limit, still being Eight. His "death" on the other hand does count and moves the number up one to Nine.
It's been a while since I watched the special that The War Doctor was "created" in so I don't remember if the people who made the potion that turned him into such stated it would "kill" him and thuss force a regeneration and thuss be Nine instead of "Eight point five".
I seem to remember that Eight had been close to death (poisoned I think it was), got a potion to become The War Doctor without really dying and then really did die after doing his thing. But, again, been a while so I may be remembering wrong.
Then The Doctor gets a shiny new set of lives, but it isn't stated if that resets the regeneration count, making Matt Smith's Doctor a "New One", or adds a new set of thirteen onto the current number, which in essence would be one additional regeneration since the current life isn't being counted. It won't matter for a long while now but is something to think aboit.
4603993
Amen, with a caveat:
The thing about Moffat is that he's a brilliant writer...but he should never be given free rein. He's the kind of writer you keep on a firm leash. Case in point: "Blink". He wrote Blink and it's considered to be one of the BEST Tenth Doctor episodes. But then when he took over as showrunner, he ran the Weeping Angels into the ground and ruined them forever. That's been the problem with his entire tenure: he doesn't have anybody to slam on the brakes and stop him from going too far with his grand, complicated, confusing ideas.
4604067
Regeneration is regeneration. There's no such thing as an "artificial Doctor" or a "New First Doctor*". Every Doctor is the Doctor. Period.
What you're citing as an excuse to "discount" the War Doctor as a "real" Doctor is nonsense, and I'll tell you why: The Time Lords forced the Second Doctor to regenerate prematurely into the Third Doctor as punishment and stranded him on Earth.
* Except, of course, David Bradley portraying the First Doctor in the series 10 finale and the upcoming Christmas Special. He's playing a Doctor whose actor died decades ago, so he IS a new First Doctor.
the more i hear about the series the more scared i am to even try getting into it. kinda feels like one of those things that by now if you arent in, youre screwed. twists and turns just make the head ache.
4604069
I wasn't trying to "discount" The War Doctor as "not a real Doctor". At all. At no point did I say anything like that.
Ten/Eleven (Eleven/Twelve) did a "partial regeneration", not changing his body and mind. One can then say that maybe Eight did a partial as well, changing body and mind but not "using" the regeneration energy until he was "done" with his task..
The War Doctor being a sort of "Eight point five" (Ten was called "Ten point five" after pulling that hand trick by some people) was something that was talked about when first revealed and was something I found interesting but haven't seen it talked about in a while. Yes some people tried to use it to "discount" him but others didn't and I'm in that group who thinks he's a true Doctor but there is a chance he doesn't "mess with the numners".
The First Doctor will always be the First Doctor, reguardless of actor* what I was talking about is how this "New set of renegarations" The Doctor was given work. Did it reset or add? If it resets that would make that current Doctor "Last of Old Thirteen, First of New Thirteen", or "New One" for short, and there would be twelve others after. If it adds then you have "Thirteen out of twenty-six" instead and so you have thirteen more after, there is a difference of one regeneration depending on which way it works.
As for the Second to Third matter that was simply their form of execution. They killed Two and then banished Three. You can doll it up however you want but that is what it boils down to: executing someone and then banishing their (equivalent of a) son from your lands.
*Yes I know by actor is how people remember and discuss the various regenerations but for the point of this discussion they could all be played by the same person.
4604084
Eh, not really. The cool thing about Doctor Who is that basically, every time there's a new Doctor, there's an "entry point" for newcomers. Since introducing a new Doctor reinvents the series, it's a good point at whcih to enter. Anything you need to know for storylines that draw on the mythos, you can find on the TARDIS Wikia or on Wikipedia. And with both a new Doctor AND a new showrunner coming for Series 11, now is a good time for a newcomer to enter.
4604141
Every Doctor ever and every showrunner ever has had their detractors. It's just part and parcel of the whole experience of being a Doctor Who fan. Every Doctor has die-hard fans and die-hard haters. Every showrunner has praise and criticism and love and hate. Davies wasn't perfect--in fact, a lot of the BULLSHIT Moffat did, Davies kind of set up for him by playing up the "Time Lord Victorious" character arc.
But yean, that's just the way this massive, ongoing franchise rolls.