Random Musings About Sequels · 2:58am Dec 10th, 2013
So while I'm waiting for my new laptop to arrive sometime this week, I've been catching up on my 'Read Later' list on my tablet rather than actually writing. While the first few days were fraught with some major withdrawal symptoms, I think this fallow period will be good in the long run. I'm already collecting and writing down ideas for future projects, some more ambitious than others. The craziest of those being stripping 'Taste of a Good Life' of its pony attributes, adding another 100-200 pages (mostly in the beginning since the Scootaloo, RD, and Rarity equivalents would need to be fleshed out independently of their MLP equivalents, and I'd probably end up including an Ebby/MC/Rarity love triangle subplot in there too. I was totally shipping MC/Rarity in my head for a few chapters there despite knowing Ebby would be the eventual love interest) and trying to publish it 'for realsies.' If 'Project: 50 Shades of Neigh' ever reaches completion I'll let you all know.
Also vampire ponies, a hard sci-fi one shot that will actually come with a prize for the first reader to help me figure out something that's been bugging me for a couple weeks, and a fic where Nightmare Moon gets beaten up by a teddy bear. That last one makes sense in context, I swear. But I'm getting off topic.
Like I said, I've been reading stories off my read later list, mostly complete ones, and I've noticed a pattern in the comments section. Almost always, there's a comment from a reader asking for a sequel.
Now I can understand this when the story ends with some major revelation or plot twist, and Faust knows I've given into the impulse myself. Finishing a story means I've probably been focusing on it for days or weeks, and the fountain of ideas and inspiration comes with a very leaky spigot. I don't consider myself especially disciplined in this regard, witness all the stories I've written that were tagged 'Complete' before I added another chapter to them:
Hard Reset
You Can Fight Fate
No Good Answers
Artemis, Stella, and Beat
Taste of a Good Life
I call it UNNECESSARY Epilogue Syndrome for a reason. Hard Reset is the only one where I feel like eliminating the chapter in question would seriously impact the quality. But on the other hand, I can't really say that writing them took anything away from other stories of mine I've left languishing in incomplete story limbo (I swear I'll finish the zombie gerbil story one of these days) or that I've ever looked at a good idea and then thrown it out because I'm too busy writing Hard Reset 12: This Time It's Timier.
Still, whenever I see these comments or find myself wondering if maybe there should be a Duel Nature 2 without any clear idea of what it would actually be about, one thing tends to go through my mind: Why?
That's what I think people don't necessarily ask themselves when they make a sequel request or promise to write one. I imagine the thinking on the readers part goes something like, Well, the story was 25,000 words and X units of awesomeness. Therefore, expanding it to 50,000 words will make it into 2X units of awesome! Math, fuck yeah!
This is rarely, if ever, the case.
The thing is that if a story is good enough that you get to the end of it and like it enough that you're craving more, it's almost certainly done two things:
-Raised an interesting conflict, which it resolved in a satisfying way
And
-Didn't bore you at any point while you were reading it.
Sequels, and unplanned sequels in particular, are almost always subtraction by addition. You can rehash the story that worked the last time, but few stories are as engaging the second time around. You can come with a story that's completely different from the first one, but then you need a reason it's a sequel at all, and you risk splitting your fans who originally fell in love with the original themes and tone of the first story (incidentally, this was what I did with the Time Loop Trilogy. Stick all three stories back to back to back. Then pick a random point in the overall narrative. If you go about 25,000 words forward and 25,000 back from that spot, the central narrative of each point will probably be different from the other two. It's also one of the reasons I think Stitch is a better story than Fate. The former is a clean break from its predecessor while the latter tries to split the difference between the stories that came before and ended up overfilled and rushed. I'm digressing again. I'm, like, 80% sure I have undiagnosed ADD. Actually, that would explain the whole 'main narrative changes every 25,000 words' thing too) or you can escalate your sequel and raise the stakes of the conflict while keeping it in the same vein, thematically. That comes with its own set of problems, especially in long-running series. The only media I can think of that pulled it off was TTGL, which rather tellingly wasn't a long running series and wove 'going beyond the impossible' into its story right from the get-go. So to put it shortly, sequels are problematic. People who want them are under the impression that the story they just read MUST be part of a greater whole, rather than an entirely self contained entity. They think that shorter is inherently worse, rather than a choice that brings with it a huge number of advantages. Brevity is the soul of wit, right? To think otherwise you'd have to be a shortsighted ignoramus.
Apparently, then, I'm a shortsighted ignoramus. Because I totally get it.
I, too, have gotten to the end of a book and stared at the inside of the back cover in the hopes that I can will more pages into existence. Or delayed reading the last chapter of a story because if I do then it never has to be over, damn it. These characters are our friends! Friends don't just drop out of existence and never call us again (oh, uh, actually for you younger folks I hate to break it to you but they totally do in real life. The people you can't live without seeing every day right now will become the people who in five years you wonder 'Whatever happened to Bob?' in the checkout line of the grocery store and then make a mental note to call him but forget by the time you get home. Friendship is Magic, but Friendship is also Effort. Okay, end of preachy life advice.) or they shouldn't be, at least. Happily ever after is great and all, but just knowing everything went great is hollow. We want to wallow in that earned happiness along with them just like we were along for the ride as they went through what they did to earn it. Or we think we want to, but 10,000 words into a story with no conflict starts to feel like listening to a couple playing 'No, YOU hang up first' ad infinitum.
So I think the short and simple answer is... nonexistent. I guess in conclusion, I can only offer the following advice: if an author doesn't truly WANT to write a sequel, then you suggesting/begging for one will result in disappointment one way or another. If you're such an author and you're happy with where your story ended, don't feel pressured to follow up on it even if people ask you to. And expect to shake things up. Retelling the same story over again is a waste of time. Explore completely new and batshit-insane ideas. If your sequel could be tacked onto the end of your last story without anybody noticing a shift, you're probably doing something wrong.
This is what happens when I can't do any writing for a week, people. Now I'm off to recheck the FedEx tracking number to see if my laptop is any closer to arriving than it was ten minutes ago.
I agree. People asking for sequels shouldn't make the author feel like they need to write one. And it is just disrespectful to ask for the author to write more without even wondering if maybe they can't.
An odd League crossover? Have you seen my bear Tibbers?
I feel similarly about a lot of my stories when people ask for a sequel/prequel. It's like... technically, yeah, I could write more words about this plotline/idea I've laid out here, but that wasn't the goal, really. The story had its message, and it's been successfully conveyed. Writing more words on the subject might flesh it out in physical terms, but probably with diminishing returns in the way of soul.
I think it's actually kind of a problem for some authors, when they can't recognize that continuing something is a bad move and just continue on anyway. There are a fair few stories, both in fanfic terms and general media, where I can say "Y'know, it really just needed to end at x point. That probably would've been a lot better overall."
I don't think it's necessarily impossible to continue something without prior planning, but... maybe eight times out of ten you can pretty much tell when the story was designed with the continuation in mind, and when it was just sort of pulled out of thin air.
So... yeah. Pretty much agreed.
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More Small Gods than League of Legends, I think.
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Yeah I noticed that on both our collaborative stories. "What happens next? Why did you stop there? I can imagine so much more about what happens next." Uh, yeah. You can imagine what happens next yourself. That kinda says to me that we ended the thing right where we should have.
If I wrote a sequel and it conformed to my readers ideas of what happened next, it was almost certainly a failure.
Fanfiction, as a thing, is about nothing more than adding on to completed stories. Folks around here like this type of thing, so asking for moar isn't surprising. Sometimes it's okay to swing from wanting quality to wanting quantity.
Now, what was that hard sci-fi thing that had been bugging you?
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There's this one short story, I don't remember the name or author, but I definitely read it online. I've been trying to find it again, but haven't had any luck. So I'm in the process of ponifying it and then whoever can ID the original story from that will win a short, 5,000 word commission for a short story from me.
I know I could just ask, but I kind of like the idea of doing it this way instead. Been awhile since I did a commission, too.
Oooh! A scifi challenge. Looking forward to it.
Anyway, part of the desire for sequels can probably be traced back to the desire for more stuff from authors we like. The old "authors can't write good stories as fast as readers read them" problem.
1591596 Sounds fun, looking forward to having a crack at it.
Aye, one should never force a sequel or continuation. The currently featured Twilight Done for instance is a prime example of a forced sequel that kinda messed up the original story. It stopped making sense, went from amusingly absurd to downright ridiculous and unfunny (it went from princesses unexpectedly fangirling over Velvet and small shenanigans ensue to 'hey look, revolutions and dumb guards and nothing gets across and I'm-so-good-looking-I-stop-revolutions-with-my-dancing').
One thing I do find somewhat tragic though, is that because it is related to something that was good before, often times people would just blindingly take it, believing it to be as good. They go in with the assumption that it's good and convince themselves it still is.
I admit I might also just be venting here where I shouldn't be, so let's move on.
Sequels are tricky business I find, in that in one extreme case, it was just the same story but now packed into a new set of chapters (at which there is no point in splitting it into a "separate" story). In the other extreme, you try to squeeze out every bit from that idea that the whole thing would seem contrived. Not direct opposites, I'll admit.
From a writer's standpoint, I can see the temptation of simply writing a so-called sequel, because you no longer need to once again come up with completely new ideas, and you can just work with ideas you've already had and just run on from there. While there's nothing inherently wrong with that, what many writers who write this kind of sequel neglects is to check whether there's still anything you can still do with that set of ideas. Otherwise, you're scraping the pit of the barrel. You'll need to add more to it before you can take anything out of it.
From a reader's standpoint, I also sometimes hope for more of that particular story. I'd like to think it's a bit like having made a friend, and you hang around and know what happens around each other. And when the story ends, the friend moves away and you lose contact with them. A reader comes to care for the characters involved and wants to keep exploring the world the characters are in with them.
But you can't exactly force them to stay, now can you? If they have to go, they have to go.
... And I'll admit I only skimmed through most of what you wrote when I first wrote this, but looking at it again, that's exactly what you just said... whoops...
Anyway, doubtlessly, I just repeated a few things you already said(
), but just thought I'd throw my two-bits here.
Basically, we're agreed. Only write sequels if there's actually something to write about. It can be pulled off, but don't force it.
I've only asked for a sequel to one fanfiction, and it was because the author established a really interesting character dynamic about fifty words before it ended. That was just rude.
But overall, I agree. I believe in brevity in writing. The main reason I disliked a certain broadly-loved ponyfic was because it went on for tens of thousands of words detailing disagreements the characters had when the entire argument could have been resolved in a few hundred. Less is more, in fiction.
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i agree as well and for even more reasons, this one writer plain and simple didn't want to tarnish his masterpiece, while most readers call for quantity over quality. I however disagree to make a truely worthwhile seq/prequel you the writer should want to. It's detrimentle not just to the story, but to the author as well you might write to enertain the reader and because you want to and like where it's going. Ah... I'm rambling, just know writing should come from the heart not from the mobs' want.
Eh... I'll look around for the story when you post the spinoff.
Having exactly one sequel to my credit, and that one more of a Terminator 2-style, "Doing what I planned to do with the first but couldn't," I feel confident in speaking about this issue with no actual experience.
If you're writing for money, a sequel makes every bit of sense. (no pun intended) You have a built-in audience that knows what to expect and will buy it sight unseen. So is there ever any reason to write a sequel for a fan fiction? Well...
I believe that stories are like chemical equations. They have to balance. The reagents you put in at the beginning of the story have to produce the products that are supposed to come at the end. You cannot have a brave hero at the beginning become a coward at the end unless there is a reason given. If you do, you will have a bad story. And everything that shows up at the beginning has to be used by the end. Chekhov's gun must fire.
So if you go by that metaphor, at the end of the story you have stability. The chemical reactions have played out. If you want to have a new reaction, you need new reagents and catalysts. Now, if you're planning a trilogy (or tetralogy or septology, whatever), the end of each story can be just a break in a very big, very long narrative. But if you believe you have a completed story, the only reason it should continue is if you've found a new reaction.
In brief, most sequels should either be planned or not done.
That does not, however, preclude new stories using old characters or settings. Rather than sequels, what I want to see more of is a kind of commedia dell'arte re-imagining. Take characters that we know and put them in new settings. Take settings we know and put new characters in them. Take the same setting and the same characters and have a different plot, even if it contradicts the first one. Make an alternate universe of your own story. That's more creative.
The only sequel I've written is in a completely different genre. It IS what would happen next, and is of a completely different nature.
Trying to immediately force more adventure would be strained. After a comedic interlude that also lays the groundwork for an adventure sequel, sure. I am planning ahead here.
Make sure that each work has integrity. That doesn't mean it needs to stand alone, just that it needs to be itself primarily for itself.
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One of These
Replacing my old machine: an HP Pavilon pv6. I had a bunch of issues with it regarding heat management, wanted to try a new brand rather than staying with HP
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I dunno, 2 of my 3 most popular fic are sequels. I certainly don't regret writing them, and the truth is I write by the seat of my pants all the time. But I guess that comes down to personal style.
Honestly when I read fiction I tend to think of things that are going on as more of an experience and look at it less like a story. That being said, through how I see things I think a lot of the feelings that come from "I want a sequel" isn't necessarily about word count. In my mind I mostly read for an experience and with that I try to enjoy as much as I can about that experience.
My thought on the whole sequel thing is that it doesn't necessarily come from, "A bigger word count makes a better story" as it is more, "I really enjoyed this whole experience, and I wish to experience more from this universe and characters." I think a lot of people tend to go off that emotion they get from reading these stories they like that they simply just want more of that feeling. With that they request these sequels without really thinking about what that might actually mean or entail, and in that, is probably the best sign you can get that you did your job and did it well (at least to that person).
Stuff like this can be seen all around the entertainment industry from books, to movies, to video games, to what have you. Portal is a good video game example in my opinion, due to such a big and unexpected turn out to how many people had liked it. People constantly gave it praise but also kept saying that it was too short and that it needed more, however for its time nobody knew how well it would take off and the concept was kind of new (to my knowledge anyway). Due to its length and how well designed people had flocked to it and gave it a lot of praise and yet still wanted more. If portal was to go any longer, however, I feel that it would have gotten stale without new content to keep people on their toes.
The way I see it if you are having people wanting a sequel its probably for the best, because they got so much enjoyment out of what they read that they want more. They enjoyed the experience and wish to have it continue. In a way its bitter sweet due to the idea that we liked it enough that we wish for things to continue, but if we let things go on for too long they might end doing the opposite. In that it is no longer an enjoyable experience.
A good read, to put it simply how I see it, an experience. A roller coaster of events that give us feelings and emotion, along with possibly challenging how we feel and think about things. It gives us a chance to have these experiences we may never be able to normally obtain, and I think with that sometimes we don't want to just let it go.
I've written a number of one-chapter stories that I've been tempted to continue, although after much thought I realized I said what needed to be said and it was time to stop no matter how many "You bastard!" and "moar!" comments I got, in particular Daring Do and the Dance (most recent).
Celestia Help the Outcasts - Left Chrysalis on a deadly cliffhanger. Threats were made.
The Sacrifice of the Knight Bolo - Stopped because mixing nuclear armed robot combat machines and pastel ponies is something that must be done very carefully, if at all.
Concept Art - Submitted to EqD for three strikes, therefore not enough appeal there to continue.
Now I have sequel-ed a few. Ok, too many, in addition to my Nocturne Saga which has taken over my life, I have:
A War of Words - The Opening of the Guard - Parts of a second story, "Night Mares" is written but I'm not publishing until its all done.
Traveling Tutor and the Librarian - Honest, I didn't plan on making a sequel. Sunny made me. GG fit so well as an escort. Now I've got a *second* one in raw draft stage. Darned griffon chicks.
Monster in the Twilight - I gave in to the requests. Haven't regretted it yet.
I think the only reason I've never glued a single chapter on the tail of a completed story (other than to provide a link to the sequel) is I'm too darned wordy. That one chapter would turn into two, then three, and before I knew it, I'd have a sequel mashed into the original story.
This right here is the perfect encapsulation of what's wrong with 99% of all demands for a sequel. You loved that work of fiction you just consumed and you want that experience all over again. But media aren't like pizza and sex - in order to be good, each one has to be new and different.
Neat, two authors I follow wrote blogs about almost the exact same subject at almost the exact same time. Something in the air, I guess. :) See Bad Horse's post: The Story Isn't Over When You Wrap Up The Plot
What I dislike is that so many it seems think a story should have a sequel just because the first one was good, without any consideration as to whether a sequel would also be good, or if it's warranted.
The problem is that any story -- well, most stories -- require conflict to drive the plot. And that means for a sequel you then have to generate an entirely new conflict if the main plot point of the previous one was the resolution of it. Sometimes this works just fine. Sometimes it's completely inappropriate, since this would make no sense, it would cheapen the previous journey, and/or there just isn't any more story to tell.
A while back there was a romance story I was watching that finished with the couple getting married after overcoming various challenges, with the inevitable sequel request, and I was one of the ones arguing against it. At least, other than maybe a few slice-of-life one-shot stories. A story of similar scale just wouldn't work, since it would cheapen the entire point of the previous one. No, the tale has been told and no more needs to be said.
When it's a set of fictional characters that I really enjoy, then I'm sympathetic to wanting to get a little more time inside that world, but at the end of the day everything has to come to an end eventually; sequels only postpone that. The journey should be enjoyed while it lasts, and sequels be considered a bonus, rather than an expectation.
words words words words sequels
My thoughts: come on Eakin, everything you write is brilliant. BELIEVE IN YOURSELF!
words words words words TTGL words words Beyond the Impossible
STOP. Let's go back and read everything.
Aye, aye, SIR!
Well, actually, I think a good ending does at least indicate not merely that the conflict was resolved, but that life somehow went on after the end of the story. Someone should want to follow past the ending, because you've made your characters seem like interesting people who are going to keep being interesting even after the reader can't see them anymore.
Of course, we can all agree that it's good to move on to newer, batshit-insaner things.
Whenever I wish for a sequel (and I usually do so quietly and to myself because I respect an author's right to do what they want) it's because I'm wondering "and then what?"
For example, lets say a story has Twilight turning into a vampire, or a headcrab zombie, or David Bowie. She and her friends then go on an adventure and save the day and defeat the antagonist, etc.
And then what?
Grand adventures will always be a basis for character growth. In fanfiction they also tend to establish great changes to the narrative. This combines with being invested in the characters now and wanting to read more about them. So now Twilight has defeated the evil conglomerate of Disney villains or what have you, and go back to her life in Ponyville. But how will the events of the adventure impact her everyday life?
This is why I love writers like RealityCheck, who took the story Past Sins and wrote answers to "and then what?" The story ends having established a clear change in the world's narrative that readers are interested in exploring. These don't even have to be about the same characters. Lets say you write a story about Twilight bringing about the steampunk revolution. You could easily then write a "sequel" focused on another pony living somewhere else, and how they deal with the change, thereby making use of and expanding upon the worldbuilding you did in the previous story while telling an entirely new tale.
At this point I've forgotten the point I was trying to make, so /rant
Well, that was rambly
I've recently noticed that I tend to write new stories instead of sequels. The only story for which I wrote a sequel (and a prequel) was Fillystata, since then I've just kept on writing unrelated stories instead of building on existing ones. And I think that can be a problem too, at least if you want to build a following. The people who loved your first story may not care about the next ten completely unrelated and differently-themed stories.
If you seek to be a popular author, I think there's the risk that it end up feeling like a curse, because you have to write the same stories, or the same kinds of stories, over and over again. Because the moment you write something completely different, you create a new base of fans instead of building on the existing one.
Or you can say screw that, I'll write whatever I want, but if you want it to pay your bills that's risky and probably only something you can safely do once you're a rich bastard who can afford to piss off half your loyal fans because you have so many it barely matters. Being able to write whatever the hell you want is a luxury.
Oh, look, I can be rambly too
Anyway, I've certainly been asked for a sequel to II many times, and so far I haven't caved in. Mostly because I have no bloody idea what that sequel would be about. Celestia knows I've tried, but I just can't think of any kind of plot.
I bet I'll be asked for a sequel to Uniformity once that one is done, too, and by then I'm probably deep in writing my first non-pony story. Or so I hope.
Life as a writer is never easy.
I don't think people appreciate short stories enough these days. It's all 700 page epic tomes of longwindedness, which can be great, but I think people have come to think that if it isn't at least 500 pages, then it's not a real story yet. And that's sad.
I do like your unnessessary epilouges. Espescially Hard Reset's ones. The one in You Can Fight Fate with Twilight as a mother was going a tad too far though (I mean REALLY?!).
> because I'm too busy writing Hard Reset 12: This Time It's Timier
Well, I'm already 25,000 words in and have a pretty good plan for the rest, but if you want to collaborate …
Anyway, sequels in fanfic are a bit of an odd bird, because everything we write is, in some sense, a sequel to the show. Every single fanfic ever written is an act of faith in sequels. The purpose of a sequel, from a reader's perspective anyway, is that we've gotten invested in the premise and/or characters and/or setting, and we want the chance to explore it further.
So I believe that a good author — if they are still as invested as they were in the source story; that's key — will write sequels that are as awesome as the original. It's going to be a very rare author who's equally invested in telling the same story twice, so good sequels almost have to grab the premise and give it a sharp yank off the rails.
I could expand on this, but would end up repeating most of what the original post said. Instead, I'll point out some easy examples of sequels that got it right. A Stitch In Time, which gave us Starswirl and Azalea and wheeled hard from adventure into character drama. Karazor's Outside The Reaching Sky, which pivoted from The Dread Chitin's survival horror into grand space opera. Toy Story 3, which pressed into some severely profound territory on mortality and acceptance. Star Trek II: The Wrath Of Khan, with Spock's sacrifice. Return of the Jedi, which redeemed Darth Vader.
(And, of course, every fanfiction ever.)
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DIIIIIIIIIIIISSSSSSSSSCCCCCCCCWWWWWWWWWWOOOOOOOOORRRRRLLLLLDDDDDDD!!!
That is all.
Usually I'd only inquire about a sequel if the ending doesn't achieve closure.
One horrifyingly bad example is the finale of Animorphs. If someone ever repeats that mistake I will demand a sequel because JUST NO.
do tell?
Overall, I agree that, from the reader's perspective, starting shit about sequels is just bad form, and sadness-inducing. I try (note: I said try, not succeed) not to bring it up unless the author starts the train rolling themselves.
That said, I cannot get enough Scootalove. Give me more. Damnit.
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See my latest story and blog post