I am pondering this question due to comments received on the first one-shot I ever published. I'll summarize the discussion here, so you guys don't have to read the original comments:

The story had elements that were from the human world, such as guns and debit cards. Many comments said that this took folks out of the story, and made it feel not "pony" enough in their eyes. There are also characters who swear in the story, which further disconnected them from the story's setting.

I felt that the show is only one viewpoint of Equestria, and that multiple ways to perceive and experience Equestria are likely to exist. Thus, I felt that by basing part of the story on some experiences I had would be an acceptable artistic risk. Technology is very advanced in Equestria; Vinyl Scratch wouldn't be a DJ if it wasn't so, hence I included those bits of technology in the story. A similar logic was applied to the swearing characters: the bright and happy Equestria from the show may not be seen that way by other characters.

I know the story has other problems besides the issue above, but this topic stood out in the discussion. I bring this in front of you all to ask this: what do you all think about the topic?

Sincerely,

Mr. Album

Technology is very advanced in Equestria;

Correction. Technology is very scattered in Equestria.

3391634

Freaking Horse-drawn carriages on concrete roads when pedal-powered helicopters exist!!! WTF!!!!1!!1!

3391627

If you want to keep your fic "Pony" enough, then you have to make it fun, put an emphasis on the interactions between your characters and make it seem like something that would fit inside of the MLPverse.

3391643

Good point w' the technology inconsistency.

I'm okay with a fic not being very "pony" personally, however I am curious if there's a baseline requirement, and if that baseline limits artistic expression. If the previous sentence is true, then is it a good or bad thing?

Again, not debating quality of a specific fic here, I'm personally trying to understand where the line is drawn, and if it is something I should keep in mind w/ my FimFic writing.

3391657 If you have the Alternate Universe tag then you can do whatever you want.

If you don't have that, however, than a credit card is a big deal. You can have it, but you better have a good explanation why we haven't seen it in the show yet.

3391689

I guess that's kinda the point, isn't it. Just because something isn't explicitly in the show means it can never plausibly exist in the show's universe? The show is, in essence, the experiences of Twilight and Friends. A sentient character's experience is a subjective thing, because it relies on their perception of their setting.

As a result, I think there are going to be things that are missed or overlooked because the characters don't see it. Thus, if it COULD be in the world (maybe not in the show, but in the world), should we still treat it as taboo in fan fiction, or force it into "Alternate Universe" even though it COULD plausibly exist in the setting?

That's kinda what I'm getting at. By forcing fics to a minimum standard of "ponyness" and threatening them with shame or a not-quite-fitting tag for not meeting that standard, would that limit the efforts of writers who are trying to explore aspects of the setting that the show either glosses over or completely misses? I think it could, if the standard is too stringent.

Would that restriction be a good thing, or a bad thing?

My story is definitely trying to expand on the setting, but it does not do it well. However, I did not want to discuss my story, or whether or not my story is "bad" or "good". I wanted to discuss this topic that came out of the comments discussion, because I wanted to see if other people have had this discussion and if they had any further thoughts on the topic.

Anyway, make of my thoughts whatever you will.

Sincerely,

Mr. Album

3391627 I don't really think the credit card should be a justification for "not pony enough".

In one of my stories, I explicitly gave Trixie an Equestrian Express card and put a credit card reader in Rarity's shop, and nobody complained about it.

3391759

Hm, interesting. Would a gun be too much then? Not criticizing or anything, just trying to get a handle on the discussion.

3391763 I think a gun would be a bit much. How would they operate them? Unicorns are the only species that could operate them reliably, and they already have a gun attached to their head - their horns.

3391764

True. Then again, how many unicorns know offensive spells? And what would be easier to cast: lightning, or telekinesis? Plus, who says Equestrian guns are the same make and model as human guns? Anything can be re-designed for a new user type. Thirdly, non-magical races may want a way to fight from long-range. If an earth pony always had to close to melee range to engage an enemy, things like the Charge of the Light Brigade would happen all the time. We know non-magical races serve in military roles via the Royal Guard (Pegasi are often seen in the show in this role). Why would they serve if they are going to fight at a disadvantage against magical or long-range enemies? Doesn't make sense.

So guns, however unlikely, are plausible. Should the presence of guns force a story into AU territory, even though they COULD exist in show canon, and have simply never been seen in show canon 'cause it's a kids TV show?

Then again, should the line be drawn at guns? In theory, anything can be rationalized to "fit" with show canon, but how can we tell when that works and when it doesn't?

3391804 Hmmm. Good point. There are stories that use guns effectively.

3391804

The farther you stray away from the world set in the show, the more you will lose the interest of certain readers.

It's possible to make an argument that guns and other advanced / violent technologies exist offscreen in Equestria. A bit of a stretch, but.

Let's just use guns as an example.

The rule of thumb is simple. If you want to use it in a story, ask yourself, "Why?"

Why do guns exist in Equestria? What purpose were they invented for? Tools for war against other races, such as griffins or dragons? Fighting against other ponies? Hunting? Sport? How available are they? Are they treated the way guns are in the U.K. or in the U.S?

If the answer to any of these questions is something you want to tell a story about or involve in your narrative in any way, than go for it.

If the answer instead is more of a "I don't know" or "Just because" or "I like them", you make want to take a step back and reconsider the purpose of your narrative and how this added detail fits with the story you're trying to tell.

TL,DR: If you're going to include something in your story, there should be a reason for it.

3391907

Hm. So if you HAVE to go out of your way to justify anything that could be remotely different from the setting, that could ruin some stories. If I had established all those details about guns in my story, for example, it would have crippled the focus and pacing of the story just to "legitimize" the existence of guns. All the parts explaining how guns exist in the setting would have taken away from the central plot of the story. Sure, a perfect writer would have found a way around that, but perfection is a laudable goal and an unreasonable expectation.

I needed something that would have been a threat to a unicorn, and that seemed the best answer. Anything else could have been magicked away without too much threat, logically speaking, and anything more complex than a deadly weapon would have been a nightmare trying to explain. Emphasis on COULD have; incompetency in magic could be a decent character trait.

It's hard trying to understand where to elaborate and where to simply leave things be with regards to this issue, which seems to indicate that it is a really fuzzy line between plausibility and implausibility when you get down to it. What works for one story doesn't seem to work for another.

On the one hand, I'm not sure writers would appreciate readers trashing authors over subjective perceptions of dissonance. On the other hand, if something needs to be established in order to fulfill its function in the story, then that should be pointed out. Ultimately, it sounds like a lose-lose for authors and readers IMHO.

3391627

Technology is pretty botched in canon. I try to stick late-nineteenth century, myself.

A lot of what you say sounds more like an 'OOC' problem. Cursing is one of those things that immediately sounds out of place in a pony-fic. There are authors who can pull it off well, but not many.

I love cursing. I'm probably the most vulgar guy you can meet, but you'll seldom see me drop an f-bomb in a fic. There are a lot of things that the canon doesn't do, that you can add in for an older demographic. It's reasonable to assume that all of the Mane 6 is aware of the birds and the bees. It's not reasonable to assume that Twilight Sparkle has participated in an orgy. It's reasonable to assume That Applejack might throw back a drink or two. It's highly unlikely that a responsible farm-mare who's had to grow up and take care of her sister, would be a lush.

While I'm more partial to the use of 'ponyfeathers' or references to Celestia's naughty bits, an f-bomb out of the mouth of an OC wouldn't surprise m, if that were the kinds of things that the character would say. You would need a damn good reason to make me believe that Twilight or Rarity would do the same.

I can remember a fic that had Pinkie saying, "Son of a b--" with a cut-off. It was out-of-character, and it was supposed to be. The POV character was quite surprised, but given the situation, it was appropriate.

If you can take artistic license with the mood and tone of the canon, but people aren't necessarily going to go for it. You're right about there being things that aren't shown, but there's a limit to what the audience can be made to believe, and that limit isn't the same for everyone.

Edit -
If they had guns, at least guns that were practical, the Royal Guard would be using them. They use spears.

Military technology advances because of escalation. Trenches were an answer to machine guns, and tanks were an answer to trenches. Basically speaking, ponies would start using guns as soon as the technology was needed . . . probably some time after a firearm massacre. It could happen in the space of one war, but the firearm technology used would be rudimentary.

I imagine that something like a mounted machine-gun could be peddle-powered, and triggers without gaurds could be made large enough to accommodate a hoof . . . but those weapons would take two hooves to use.

3391627
Is it an alternate universe fic or are you trying to just place credit cards and gun in the universe logically?

I think the reason these two "technologies" would be ill received is because: (1) the ponies are shown to have a "bits" system similar to antiquated coin systems as their form of currency. That is far from credit cards so its hard to imagine one part of Equestria having coins and the other with functioning credit cards when Twilight hasn't ever seen a computer before (as evidenced by EG) and she's a book-smart know-it-all.
(2) Since the entire MLP universe has "magic" as the driving force of "attack" (all enemies on the show have used magic as their tool of domination/control/terror) it is hard to imagine the ponies would think of other tools of destruction that didn't involve magic (they have spears and swords, but they seem to have no need to advance that line of technology when magic is so much better). Additionally, since death is such an abnormality, it seems like advanced weapons wouldn't be a thing.

However, it all just depends on how much you want to over-think a children's show. I think most people will be pulled out of the moment if you do anything outside of the show without explaining it first (its a crossover, its an alternate universe, etc.). However, you, as the author, can do whatever you want in your stories. Or did you come seeking validation for your choices?

3391982 Basically, for your situation, you had three options.

A: Take the time to properly set up and justify the divergence in setting, which would have distracted from the story you were trying to tell.
B: Do it without out any explanation, and accept that it will hurt the plausibility and ruin suspension of disbelief for some.
C: Find an alternative that doesn't require A or B. For your story, that would've been finding a way to make a low tech weapon work, or changing the story so that the conflict doesn't require bloody violence in the first place.

Ultimately, the story you tell and how you tell it is up to you. But for ANY element of the story, not just divergent technology, it's a good idea to stop and ask "Does this need to be here? What does this add to the story? What is the point of this story, and how do these elements fit in to further that point?"

3391627

I have an involved history for my verse, with technological advances at various times. By the way, the first credit cards came in during the early 20th century -- they didn't have magnetic strips, it was all done by paper records.

3391627

Technology is very advanced in Equestria;

*Technology is very plot and joke dependent in Equestria.

I like to think that Equestria has industrial-era industry and logistics with medieval philosophy, military technology, military doctrine, and architecture. A bit like if steampunk had a child with high fantasy.

3392070

I suppose what I'm having issue with is the concept that I HAVE to place stuff within a universe logically, and not take creative risks without covering my authorly behind within and without the story. In the case of my story, the plot needed a way to force the main character to reveal himself, and a serious wound from a deadly weapon would have done the job. I could have gone with something other than a gun, but I decided to for reasons I explained earlier. Was it the best decision? No. But I got slammed for it NOT BECAUSE it wasn't the best decision, BUT because it impinged on one fellow's personal subjective perception of the show's canon setting, and THAT is why they raised a fuss, NOT because it was a bad idea to use a gun. In short, they offered legitimate criticism for not sticking to show canon, instead of offering legitimate criticism on not relying on life-threatening situations to move character development forward. In short, they criticized me for something personal and subjective, rather for something objective. Both criticisms are legit, but one is restrictive and understandable while the other is thought-provoking and understandable.

Is that a bad thing, that we can get criticized for something that has little to do with whether or not X matches up with the show's canon setting/plot/characters/etc...? Any writer has the capacity to make anything work as a story, first and foremost. Maybe readers should let authors take that attitude, instead of forcing them to worry about how their audience will perceive the presence of something different than show canon.

1.) Sure, that's a good point, but remember that sound system Vinyl Scratch was manning as DJ Pon3 at the end of the Season 2 finale? That requires advanced knowledge of circuitry in order to make and control a.) the DJ table, b.) the control board, and c.) all the lights. So it isn't hard to assume that computers COULD exist in the show, so should an author who wants to have a pony character interacting with a computer get trashed or for their fic to be down-voted/ignored/what-have-you simply because their story has a computer in it, rather than for any artistic problem or recurring grammar issue?

In short, are writers forced to adhere to setting and canon against their creative desires, because of their audience? IS THAT A GOOD OR BAD THING?! That's what I'm trying to figure out here.

2.) By that logic, any creature that cannot wield magic as a weapon is immediately at a disadvantage. This would not sit well with ANY of the other races, and from what we have seen of the show it seems apparent that there are an even mix of unicorns, earth ponies AND pegasi; in short, natural selection favored ALL of them, NOT one over the other. Besides, consider that those who wielded magic as a means of attack were already uber-magical beyond belief, to the point where they could threaten ALL of Equestria with their magic. I highly doubt the average unicorn would be able to threaten that much with their magic, and there is also the OH MY GAWD I could go on and on.

My point is, there is always a loophole around every block or problem. Should we force authors to use loopholes in order to realize their artistic vision? Is that a good or bad thing? Sure, that forces authors to get creative, but it is creativity in response to a challenge or problem, rather than creativity that arises as a result of the author's natural talents or abilities. It's like the difference between a wild tree and a Bonsai tree; one is micromanaged by the gardener, while the other is free to grow into whatever wild shape best suits it. Which is better? Which should characterize our community interactions between authors and our audience?

This discussion started on my fic, and I do admit that I am human. I guess I sought validation without consciously meaning to seek validation. I just wanted to see if folks recognized this as a problem, and if they considered it bad enough to potentially hamper creativity or artistic vision. I apologize for whatever selfishness I may have had, but my intention was to bring it up and get people talking about it, at the extreme least.

3392075

See the first paragraph above for my thoughts on "did X need to be here?" I do not mean to say your criticism is wrong, just letting you know where I responded to your thought. You are right, those were my options, and that is a good tip that can help me "kill my darlings" before they become problems, so to speak. Then again, I had tried to separate the discussion of the topic from discussion of my fic, but I guess that didn't happen

3392111

A good knowledge of history would have saved me some trouble; maybe not all of it, but a lot of it. I need to remember to do my research next time

3392119

I suppose that IS true.... after all, I guess the show is just a show meant for little girls and their families

Then again... could that be an excuse? Or is it just me overthinking a subject?

Make of my thoughts whatever you will.

Sincerely,

Mr. Album

3392238 Fanfiction is by definition, a set of restrictions you place upon your writing. How far those boundaries are pushed and how the audience reacts to them is ultimately determined on a case by case basis, but pushing boundaries is riskier than not doing so.

The vast majority of us are here because we enjoy a show about candy colored horses, after all.

Even in original fiction, you are generally hampered by audience expectations. If you write a touching romance story where halfway through the love interest is killed off and the rest of the story is a brutally dark alien invasion / war story, don't expect it to be well received by the people who like reading romance novels.

Write for yourself,
BUT
Keep your audience in mind.

3392238
You speak as though your artistic creativity is being hampered but I just need to point out one thing: this is fan-fiction. The whole point of fan-fiction is to limit your creativity by working within an already defined structure that you (and others) like in order to further your involvement with that already-established lore/genre.

In other words - all of your complaints stem from the fact you are writing fan-fiction. People who read fan-fiction expect that it will, at least, follow the structure of the per-established material. That's why they complained. They went in thinking this would be a story based in the world they already like and know. When you do something that contradicts that they will usually be unhappy (unless you forewarn them with an alternate universe tag or something).

If you were writing your own original work about anthropomorphized ponies and then they happened to have guns, I doubt anyone would complain because, in your own universe, those are the rules. Horses wield guns. But in MLP, they don't. That's the drawback to fan-fiction.

3392238 Stories that are published aren't meant for the writer. They are meant for the readers.

Readers read from readers perspective. You can't expect them to read something from your personal creative subjective view of it.

Most readers have their own head canons that validate the show. You're breaking their head canons with your story and that hurts them. Readers like it when you explain something that the show failed to address. You are doing the opposite. You're leading the readers away from the show instead of delving them deeper in it.

If you want to write without limitations, then you can consider AU tag or original fiction. There you have a freedom to do whatever you want.

3391657

I'm okay with a fic not being very "pony" personally, however I am curious if there's a baseline requirement, and if that baseline limits artistic expression. If the previous sentence is true, then is it a good or bad thing?

I'm not okay with that.

If a fic departs in tone from the show? Fine.

That's part of the fun in fanfiction. Exploring things the show doesn't explore.

But if the fic departs from the universe of the show? Not fine.

I'm here for Friendship is Magic fiction. Stories about Equestria.

If I want an AU, I will read an AU (and I do).

If one can't be bothered to write in an established universe, then you're writing the wrong genre of fiction. It's no more a violation of artistic vision for a derivative work to stay close the universe it's based in than for a story to stick to its own established rules and settings. Or to have a character act within their established character. It's just good writing practice.

An Equestria replete with computers and an internet (or other long-distance instant communication system) to allow for debit cards is a hugely different place from the Equestria we know. Look at how much computers changed the world for us. It was pretty much the largest change since fire was invented.

Guns, at least, there's some basis for. Since we know Equestria already has gunnery, thanks to Pinkie. But we haven't seen any handguns. (Mouthguns?) So I'm doubting they're ubiquitous.

3393378

Equestria's weird when it comes to technology.

You've got the Super Easy Cider Squeezy 6000, which looks like something from Dr. Suess.
Then you have more standard inventions like the gramophone, the train, the printing press, and the camera.

Pinkie Pie's Party Cannon certainly suggests combustible firearms (fireworks have been around since 7th century China). It could be said that a pacifist vegetarian culture like Equestria simply didn't develop guns like Humans did, when most "Big Bad" problems are consistently solved through "magic." The same can be said for the automobile: Ponies can travel farther and faster than humans, and when they cannot, they take the train. The taxis in Ponyville (Putting Your Hoof Down) and Manehattan (Rarity Takes Manehattan) are almost absurd when one isn't carrying luggage. Various balloons and airships are less so, because not every pony can fly, and even pegasi could use a break for the longer distances.

Color photography seems a bit too popular and accessible for the time setting, although it could be argued that a culture that devotes more time to developing art instead of war might make advances in that area quicker. Heck, at Rainbow Dash's birthday party, they had holographic images of her.

Twilight's equipment in "Feeling Pinkie Keen" seems akin to an early computer. It's odd that ponies have motion pictures (Hurricane Fluttershy, One Bad Apple), but do not appear to have telephones, which were invented around the same time. It's possible that "magic" is more of a hindrance when it comes to this form of communication in Equestria.

3393442
Yus, there's no denying the schizo tech.

But you'd expect as much from a different species, with different priorities, driven by a benevolent immortal overlord. To say nothing of the magic. And the lack of useful grasping appendages for one third of the species.

Twilight's equipment in "Feeling Pinkie Keen" seems akin to an early computer.

Or it's something more like a polygraph. With its reams of scribbled-on paper. Which was around for a decade before even the earliest non-mechanical computer.

The heart monitors we see in the hospital are probably a harder to explain example.

But I think we'd have seen electronic computing, and even telephones, nevermind something akin to the internet by now. I can't think of a single reason why Equestria wouldn't find electronics or instant communication just as useful as we do. Twi sure as hell abuses having Spike's fire-letters on demand.

3393460

Twi sure as hell abuses having Spike's fire-letters on demand.

So does Trollestia.

Welp. It took a lot of words, but I see what I wasn't getting before.

You all were right. I wasn't considering my audience. While it amazes me that readers have the power to call out the authors on mistakes they made to the degree which you folks did, ultimately it was needed. You all were my sanity check, which is a vital part of critique. I apologize for being so stubborn and dense about it.

The issue that was brought up is not a creative or artistic limitation; it's serving your audience, which is important. No author is an island, and if something doesn't click with the audience for which it was intended, then it's the author's job to address it. Readers are human beings too, and deserve the same amount of respect and consideration as authors give to themselves.

Thanks for bearing with me. I did correct my story, for those who are curious.

Sincerely,

Mr. Album

3391627
3391643
What people mean when they say "pony enough", IMO, is that you don't start breaking world building and canon. That means you have to have a relatively up-to-date understanding of the show. If you're one of those writers who haven't watched much, you will continue to get these because you didn't do the homework.

What you're having issues with is that you are introducing elements to the story that do not appear in canon, and have no history of use within-universe.

RE: credit cards
I don't even think cards would work, at least not the way we use them. Ponies don't have hands, so they'd have to use they mouths, and then the swiping... really? No. They get slobber all over their primary transaction item? Ew. I just thought of something you could use just off the top of my head: The PDC wand: Pony Debit and Credit stick. Put it in your saddlebags and just wave the wand over the magical transmitter. Similar to Bitcoin, with the difference of a centralized repository of bit count.

3391804
RE: Guns in Equestria
It doesn't make sense tactically to you, but we know that unicorn magic can be used as long range weaponry.

That being said, you're also assuming that other races on the Earth that Equestria is in, has long range projectile weapons.

You're also assuming that all long-range combustive projectiles are even effective in pony vs other combat. Thus I would propose that you actually haven't taken the time to think this through.

Dialing it back a step, let's say somepony produces a combustive shell-cased projectile weapon; you need to know exactly how a pony might use it, realistically. We've only seen ponies holding simple implements in the fetlocks of their hooves. The magnum opus of world building Fallout:Equestria, does exactly that, providing a basis for a) why ponies developed guns in the first place and 2) how each tribe of pony might use it (earth: mouth, pulling trigger with tongue; pegasi: suits or saddle mounted guns with mouth or hoof triggers; unicorns: mmmmmmmmmagic.)

You're mixing up is just because the show doesn't show guns/credit cards doesn't mean there are no guns. This is a fallacious argument. Canon has not shown guns/credit cards, so you must prove why guns/credit cards can and does exist. The onus is on you to prove it by having good headcanon and world building.

RE: Swearing
I use swearing in fic, but only with select ponies who have a history of cussing, and I also tend to use ponified versions where appropriate (read as "appears in canon") Most of the time, it's A.J. who is renown for her potty mouth.

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3392161
3392119

*Technology is very plot and joke dependent in Equestria.

THIS. TOTALLY THIS.

My headcanon is that Celestia very carefully regulates and guide pony technology, and tries to keep them from any technologies that re just pretty much bad news. Like Guns.

3392238
If that's what you want, and you can't be bothered to write in canon within in canon logic, then, as everyone else has said, slap an AU on it.

Just remember that this is an issue with all fanfiction. Beyond that even your own writing! You have to have things make sense and not make crap up just because you feel like it and it has to make sense within your own fiction to begin with.

Just as I don't like how the show's writers keep damseling Alicorns, just to give Twilight something to do.

Otherwise, don't whine about people taking you to task when you clearly violate basic tenets of fanfiction (in-universe canon, and very good reasons to exist in-universe; also in-canon consistency, at least mostly.)

3393378
Pinkie Pie is the end of Equestria as we know it. The Chinese started with fireworks for fun. Then they moved to projectile weapons and the world changed.

3393735
Er.... wut.

3393749
It's not strict at all. IMO most fandoms are really really loose and forgiving. As long as you don't break canon or characterization, most people will accept any well-reasoned plot issues.

Non-well reasoned plot issues just means that you still have a lot of growing to do as an author, and that you're lazy.

Like this sort of lazy:
How the white hot holy steaming balls of Celestia did Applejack play that stupid snake charmer pipe with NO FINGERS? GRRRRRRR!?!?!?! [/ragequit]

3391804
I'd say, the show itself isn't consistent with ballistic weapons. For example, at the beginning of "Daring Don't", ponies easily shoot bows with hooves, while in "Equestria Games", they use their mouths to do that...

3394111
Could be with so much fanfiction and discussions like this about how hooves are used, they're finally caving in to true pony ergonomics.

3391627 Technology is not advanced in Equestria, after all they still read books for entertainment!

(dkm)

3394181
Yeah... A propos: apparently only pegasi can show other ponies what they think about them...

3393442

It's odd that ponies have motion pictures (Hurricane Fluttershy, One Bad Apple), but do not appear to have telephones

3394014

My headcanon is that Celestia very carefully regulates and guide pony technology, and tries to keep them from any technologies that are just pretty much bad news.

Telephones might have gotten a bad rap or Equestria just isn't ready for the technology of that level.

3394199

There's also the whole EQG "selfie" music video, but that's "beyond the mirror," and thus an AU.