So, I bring this up because I see so many people putting out this thought that all cyberpunk settings need to be dystopian capitalism settings, where as steampunk (and many other "punk" settings) are just settings where the main emphasis is... Steam.

Personally I feel that you could do the same with cyberpunk. Have it be a setting where society is mainly influenced by cybernetics, cyberspace or both.

Now what brings this conversation up is that I feel that a lot of people restrict what cyberpunk is and therefore restrict the potential imaginative spark for the genre to evolve.

The same thing applies to solarpunk... Though it's much worse. According to the people who say cyberpunk must be dystopian, these same people say that solarpunk can't be and that according to their idealistic environmental concepts, solarpunk MUST be a utopian future... And I hate it.

Largely because I can actually see how it could become dystopian.

First, it's quite funny how these people forgot that these things called clouds and storms exist. Things that actually cause modern solar power to not work. So, if your society is under threat of something as flimsy as a cloud, which would essentially affect your power resources, how might this restrict the populace?

In the situation that clouds and storms are done away with (therefore the water cycle is removed), which would result in most if not all of the land becoming a vast desert, how woukd that affect society.

If you're going to remove the "punk" elements from the genre (that being to rebel or resist the powers/influences that be), then solarpunk can't be solarpunk. Therefore in actuality, solarpunk in a utopian society is actually solarfetishism.

In short, solarpunk CAN be a dystopian future and anyone who says otherwise is dumb. *Drops mic.*

7862786 There are only a few hundred punks. Maybe you should add your own punks into the mix.

7862786
I mean, it seems like these people are missing the point of the "punk" part of the equation.

7862794 Exactly. I think it's funny that people will use "punk" to apply restrictions to cyberpunk (personally I don't see why a cyberpunk setting has to be exclusively capitalist in nature and not one ruled by communism for example), but be loosy goosy with most of the other genres, only to completely remove the punk elements when talking about solarpunk.

Honestly solarpunk should be called solarfetishism.

7862790 I mean, I did try to make a ttrpg that was Hellpunk (think if Doom, Chainsaw Man and Dorohedoro had a baby).

7862801 I bet you made it dystopian and not utopian.

7862802 Yep, it was a setting where corrupt human corporations and demons would manipulate the populace. Often times with the protags fighting fire with fire, using demons (or their powers) to fight demons.

A dystopian where everyone looked down on their feet or up toward sky, because somehow, by magical or technological means, peiple granted telepath abilities and those with strong mind can minrape weak-willed person with just eyes contact. Looking at each other was illegal and policed was authorized to kills anyone who break this rule.

I named it......

Wacha looking at, punk?

7862804 Telepunk?

7862786
I know you probably already know why Cyberpunk is named as it is, but for the sake of anybody who only sees it as an aesthetic, the intended definition is worth mentioning. The "cyber" part obviously comes from the advanced technology within the setting, but the "punk" part comes from the counter-cultural, rebellion-against-the-oppressive-system attitude of the genre. As a result, Cyberpunk settings tend to be dystopian.

Post-Cyberpunk is basically "What if Cyberpunk wasn't dystopian?" It maintains the aesthetic of advanced technology, but eliminates the rebellion aspect. It's "punk" in name only, which isn't to say it's not still really cool (advanced technology is objectively really cool), it's just... not Cyberpunk, per se. It's a semantic argument, really.

Steampunk is also usually "punk" in name only. It idealizes and romanticizes the industrial revolution, a period that in real life was rife with the rich taking advantage of the poor. Steampunk settings don't usually utilize the "punk" part. (Though to be fair, I haven't read much Steampunk.) Arcane is a fantastic example of true Steampunk, though.

As for Solarpunk, it's intended to be an idealized version of the future, one in which we find a way for advanced technology to coexist with nature. Sure, there will always be natural disasters, but those are an inevitability. And it's not like a few clouds or even a hurricane would be enough completely cripple a Solarpunk society. In fact, clouds can even increase the energy generated by solar panels because clouds are made of water droplets and water reflects light. But even if we ignore clouds, deserts would still hypothetically be effective locations for solar farms because they are famously very sunny. And energy from solar panels can also be stored in batteries, allowing for energy at night. (Not to mention there's also wind turbines and hydroelectric plants as other forms of renewable energy, and nuclear energy, despite it's reputation, is both safe and clean.)

So, your argument for why Solarpunk can become dystopian is easily disproven by a simple Google search about solar technology. But even if solar technology couldn't handle cloud cover, the societies depicted in Solarpunk settings would not so easily collapse into dystopia. This is because Solarpunk is built on humanism and equity, which is characteristically missing from dystopia.

Your argument betrays little knowledge of what you're arguing against. From a writing perspective, I understand it can be creatively stifling for only one depiction of something to be "acceptable". But in the case of Solarpunk specifically, it can really only be utopian. The only way Solarpunk could be dystopian is if you remove all the aspects that make it Solarpunk. And that's not just a semantic argument, either.

7862812
How does overabundance of free energy prevents human misery? You can easily debate that it can facilitate power imbalance and all kinds of degeneracy, where megacorporations that found a way to literally make money from thin air, reign supreme. Add in couple disasters of human nature, and we have that nihilistic 'punk' in solar-based society, where good intentions go awry, and technological advancement isn't such a blessing as it seems to be.
But sure, nature will be safe here, I guess. It can be debatable too

7862812
I can think of a way that a Solarpunk setting could turn dystopian. When it comes to living in harmony with nature, that necessitates setting aside land and resources for nature. Because land and resources are a zero sum game at any given point in time, this means that, necessarily, society will reach a point of land and resource scarcity. As this happens, it will require limiting population growth rates - if the desire to give land back to nature is particularly strong, it could even push for negative growth rates.

This could result in a society where the green utopia seemingly exists - everything is powered by renewable energies, everything is sustainable, the ozone layer is fixed, the rainforests are restored to their former size, cities have plenty of greenery, etc - but they use shady means to maintain this ideal. They could be hiding cures to diseases to make sure people die sooner, or manufacture a plague that kills all of the elderly or makes people infertile. All in the goal of sustainability and out of fear that more people will ruin their glorious utopia - thus making the world a dystopia where people are fed lies that the world is bountiful and humanity is a peace with nature, while at the same time, culling the population on a regular basis "for the greater good."

7862812 Isn't that just Science Fiction? I mean, you're describing Star Trek right there. That's pretty much the Federation. Clean energy, happy people. Possible drama, but not actually Dystopian...

But if you want to do a punk genre with those elements, the understanding of what an "X-punk" genre means seems to be missing from there.

While some people wear clothes that are cyberpunk or steampunk inspired, and could be living in a happy society, it doesn't mean that a "punk" setting isn't by definition dystopian. The punk part of the genre literally is about the unhappiness of the characters/people with status-quo in a society whose development is based on cyber, steam, clockwork, nano-technology, or hell even wood-based tech. The punk part comes from those that resist it and fight it in some way or another. Doesn't even need to be violent.

You can't have Cyberpunk without the Punk. But you can have a Cybernetic-centered society that happens to be a Utopia.

All these labels are so limiting

7862820
Well, of course, energy alone doesn't make a Solarpunk society resistant to corruption. Arguably the most important feature of Solarpunk is respecting all other people, regardless of skin color, gender identity, sexual orientation, disability, or any other factor. These are societies built in such a way specifically to prevent suffering. Obviously, not all suffering can be eliminated. There may be illnesses that may not be able to be cured. But nobody would have to worry able going into debt over medical bills. Nobody would need to choose between either paying rent or having food on their table. Money in a Solarpunk society would not be a necessity to survive.

It all comes down to the founding principle of valuing people over profit. Every level of the society would be structured in such a way to make sure everyone has what they need not only to survive but to thrive.

7862835
This answer had driven me to google what 'solarpunk' is about, and seems it indeed contains underlying philosophy of rejecting pessimism, at least according to Wikipedia page.
Well, alright then ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I think it will be interesting to explore the idea in more traditional 'punk' setting, though. Already written out some notes...

7862824
Actually, overpopulation isn’t as much of a problem as it might seem. The human population is expected to plateau around 10 billion, and there’s already enough resources to support everyone. The only problem is the corporations that destroy the environment and create artificial scarcity by hoarding resources.

7862826
The “punk” in “Solarpunk” represents anti-capitalism, not general cynicism. It’s about rebellion against oppression. Cyberpunk is nihilistic and cynical about a future controlled by capitalism. Solarpunk is hopeful for a future unconstrained by capitalism. There’s a really good video by Youtube channel Tale Foundry that discusses a few “punk” genres.

7862841
I also recommend the TVTropes page for Solarpunk.

Isn't Solarpunk all about those clean energy? I believe it is generally named solar is because of how solar is almost intricately linked to panels or energy?

I think it was suppose to be a reimagined future of humanity to reach that point. Probably why it is also inexplicably linked to utopia.

The word punk, in a societal context, kinda implies some form of dystopia. It is unfortunate that the general populace thinks blank-punk equates to society gone wrong. Cyberpunk 2077 and Mad Max (dieselpunk) are one of the more well known amongst the casual crowd. Unfortunately, these two set the stage for punk society being linked to apocalyptic.

There hasn't been any popular media that challenges that trope.

I really like the idea of that communist society being pushed forward by cybernetics. The closest is Atomic Hearts' Sovietpunk.

7862851 I'll look it up! Can't watch atm, but for now, I do have a question: If the setting is already a Utopia based on anti-capitalism, what type of scenarios in this setting lend themselves to the 'punk' in the characters? Are they capitalists fighting to right the "wrongs" of this equality-based society? Sticking to the concept of punk fiction, it's not the setting itself alone that is "punk" but rather the people living there that are discontent. What would be a good example of literature of this genre?

7862851
In a society unconstrained by resource scarcity, overpopulation will become a problem, unless steps are taken to prevent people from having large families. Any pro-growth segment of a population will, in short order, completely dwarf any non-pro-growth segment over time.

There are plenty of people who, if there were no constraints on it, would have big families. Because genetics is a thing, their children are more likely to have traits that make them want to have big families. What you get is an eventual snowball effect where, even if you start out with a tiny fraction of society that wants to have a lot of kids, then several generations down the line, most people in a society want a big family. The result is that the population balloons until they run out of resources.

For some, having children gives their life meaning and purpose. If this ideal utopia allows everyone to live their life in the way that they, personally, find meaningful, then how does how does a Solarpunk society deal with folks who want to have 8+ kids or 20+ kids? And how does a Solarpunk society stop them from spreading their pro-family traits and ideals to their children, thereby encouraging them to have lots of kids?

7862786 Do you even know what's SolarPunk means ?

7862790

7862802
Utopia v.s. Dystopia

7862824
I was just about to say that
7862820
p.s. Do you 2 want to join my SolarPunk group, or not

7862826

7862851

7862859

7862812

Your argument betrays little knowledge of what you're arguing against.

I was mostly referring to the way our solar technology is currently. The disadvantages of things like solar panel include:

• High cost for installion and maintence.
• Low efficiency due to reliance on the sun being out.
• And that we currently don't have the technology to store all the energy effectively.

Here's a source: Investapedia.

Now could that change in a scifi future... Yes.

But would that make it punk... No.

If there is nothing to resist/stand up against, then it isn't a part of the punk genre.

There are plenty of ways that one could make solarpunk actually a part of the punk genre, but as long as it is a utopia it will NEVER be punk.

7862895 Why isn't there a ponyPunk in this?

7862970
Where would it be put ?

it's to nish...
and I think it's under KidsPunk

Seems to me, you sure are big on rules for someone who wants to read about -punks.

More specifically and constructively, I think this story is solarpunk of a kind.

TNatural Light: A SolarPunk Story

• MLP: FiM
• Adventure
• Sci-Fi

When race determines status, earth ponies sit at the bottom of society. But new tech that runs on solar power promises to even the score. When the Crown bans it as "sun theft," outlaws called "Shiners" take up the fight. This is their story.

• Violence
• Alt. Universe
• OC

The Hat Man · 13k words  ·  50  3 · 552 views

7862859
I think you misunderstand. The characters needn't be punk themselves, especially in Solarpunk specifically. In Cyberpunk, rebellion exists because society is controlled by corporations that put basic necessity behind a massive paywall. But in Solarpunk, society is built to ensure everyone has what they need. And so if everyone has what they need, why would they need to rebel? I'm not really sure how else I can make it clear that Solarpunk is designed to have as few societal problems as possible.

But... let's say, for the sake of conversation, that there are people who rebel against a system design to be as perfect as possible. These rebels would probably have to believe something similar to Ayn Rand's ideology: that certain people are inherently more deserving of wealth and power because they have already have wealth and power. There's definitely a story to be told their, but the rebels wouldn't be the good guys in that scenario.

7862868
According to the Wikipedia page for Population Growth, the population growth rate is expected to decline as fertility rates drop naturally after the plateau. But even without that, I think you're overestimating the effect large families would really have. You are relying on the assumption that a significant enough portion of the population would even want as big a family as they can birth. Sure, a lot of people would want a big family if they could support it, but there are so many other factors to account for in this hypothetical.

7862933
Well, of course. It wouldn't be Solarpunk simply for having cheap green energy. That would just be treating a symptom of the disease. We'd also need to disband the corporations that are causing environmental destruction. We would need the workers to take control of the factories and farms away from the billionaires.

There's your rebellion; there's the punk.

7863073 Ah. Well. It seems that there's a great misconception about what qualifies a story to be placed into the "x-punk" category. The premise you presented me here is a setting that by its utopian nature negates the need for people to strive for freedom or better situations, which is where the "punk" in the literary term "Cyberpunk/Steampunk/etc" comes from, not the setting itself. As a Lit Major, I really can't just lean in and accept that any setting can be "punk" without the actual meaning and concept being intrinsic in it. It just sounds like your average utopian Sci-fi setting to me, with the "punk" just added for aesthetics.

Anyway, while I understand that this apparently has its appeal for some people, I must admit it really isn't my cup of tea, so I'll be leaving it to you to enjoy it. But thanks for indulging me and taking the time to explain your perspective, that I do appreciate.

The tabletop game Battle Century G features a Solarpunk setting as the standard for the game. Such a setting may seem incongruous for a mecha-based TTRPG. Its own description of Solarpunk is as follows:

Solarpunk Future: The cities of the Grid are beautiful, clean, and green. You won’t find homeless people going hungry in the streets, and people there are socially conscious. If you’re wondering what’s “Punk” about that, it’s because Solarpunk is the odd child in the -punk genre family. It posits that, since grim and dark dystopias with rapid technological advances have mainstream appeal now, they’re no longer counter-cultural critiques of modern society. Solarpunk goes in the opposite direction, presenting a hopeful vision of a future that scales back on the lawless, individualist, and consumerist use of technology present in other genres, most notably Cyberpunk.

The principle antagonists in the setting are biomechanical Kaiju that lash out at the destruction of their natural habitat (often at the hands of industrialist constructions) and a hegemonic technocratic empire that takes the transhumanist themes of the setting to their darkest extreme, grafting themselves to their machines in stark contrast to the more naturalistic augmentations of the player characters.

The game cites the likes of Turn A Gundam, Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind, The Dispossessed, and even Six Degrees: Our Future on a Hotter Planet.

Solarpunk, as a genre, works best as a direct counter to Cyberpunk. A recovery from and a rejection of the vices that led to the world of Cyberpunk dystopia and a return to a more harmonious relationship between man, machine, and mother nature.

7862786
7862812
It's not because it's solarpunk that it's a utopia.
It's because they want to make it a utopia that they make it solarpunk.

Solarpunk is a reaction to the popular but simplistic and restrictive notion that cyberpunk is always dystopian. As such, it's also an oversimplistic notion. The idea that simply by having abundant energy, you can remove most or all societal conflicts is, of course, naive in reality. There will always be greed, if not for material wealths then for power, for the ability to control. There will always be people who hate others purely based on race, on religious belief, on ideology. Those can't be removed just by having free access to energy and materials. In fact, when you have such groundbreaking technology that the society would become heavily depend on, it actually intensifies inequality, not in terms of wealth but in terms of control, of freedom, as who have control of that technology practically have control over the entire society. In that regard, solarpunk setting is not all that different from cyberpunk, in which the society heavily depends on certain cybertechs, and who control and regulate those techs (government, megacorporation, self-aware AI, transcended virtual consciousness, etc.) have control over society.

But of course, such realistic view is not the aim of solarpunk. Its fundamental purpose is to create a utopia setting. That purpose may be based on a wrong notion that cyberpunk has to be dystopian, but it's still the identity of solarpunk, and it will happily handwave a lot of things to achieve that.

By itself, it's not that bad. Handwaving certain aspects in the setting is used all the time in literature and media. Creating a standout identity may actually be more important than trying to adhere as much as possible to realism (cases in point, franchises such as Star War, Star Trek, Tolkien-style fantasies, and, not least of all, My Little Pony). Of course a setting with few tensions and conflicts would be much less attractive in terms of storytelling. But it has its uses, like in slice of life genre, or just as a foundation to explore a different focus, such as romance, self-discovery, existential crisis, etc.

7863020

Seems to me, you sure are big on rules for someone who wants to read about -punks.

7863023
This is letraly the only story on the Group

7863073 Please come join my group
SolarPunk

7863243
SolarPunk BoardGame

7863306

12:20-22:40

7863380

This is letraly the only story on the Group

I didn't even know there was a Solarpunk group. I just thought the story was kind of interesting.

Every time someone happens to have a similar opinion to yours about something, do you always call them a conformist? I think for me to always check what your opinion is on everything, to make sure to disagree with you seems like too much work and a stupid expectation.

7863389

I didn't even know there was a Solarpunk group. I just thought the story was kind of interesting.

It is a good story
.

.

Every time someone happens to have a similar opinion to yours about something, do you always call them a conformist? I think for me to always check what your opinion is on everything, to make sure to disagree with you seems like too much work and a stupid expectation.

I.. what ?
I just read the comment and thought of this line from that show

7863023 This story actually is in my read later folder, and by just reading the synopsis, it actually is Solarpunk.

7862970
7862970
Bottom left corner. It'd fall under anthropunk.

Don't see fluffpunk, but I suppose it could fall in the same space...

--Sweetie Belle

7863535 I wonder where TentaclePunk would fit in. Then again, tentacles fit everywhere.

Now while I think that the idea of Solarpunk being a utopia isn't really punk, I do think you can easily make one if you try hard enough (and honestly I don't think it is that hard).

Going back at least as far as the Egyptians (and I'm sure further back then that), humans have worshipped the sun. In some cases they went so far as to commit human sacrifice. Could a technological society that is powered by the sun potentially go down a similar route? Yes, I think so. Either you could have the society worship the sun or worship those in charge of the machines that are absorbing the solar energy. Could such a priesthood be corrupt and something that might cause our protags to resist? Yes.

That's just one of MANY routes you could go down.